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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2000-11-28 **Mot MINUTES PALM DESERT ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 2000 12:30 P.M. - COMMUNITY SERVICES CONFERENCE ROOM 73-510 FRED WARING DRIVE I. CALL TO ORDER The meeting was called to order at 12:30 p.m. Commissioners Present Current Meeting Year to Date Present Absent Present Absent Wayne Connor X 17 5 Ronald Gregory, Chairman X 20 2 Kristi Hanson X 16 0 Neil Lingle X 16 3 Richard O'Donnell X 19 3 Chris Van Vliet X 19 3 John Vuksic X 19 1 Staff Present: Phil Drell, Planning Director Steve Smith, Planning Manager Martin Alvarez, Associate Planner Shawn Kirkpatrick, Code Compliance Gail Santee, Senior Office Assistant Guests: Joe Dickinson, AIPP Commissioner 11. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: November 14, 2000 Commissioner O'Donnell moved, seconded by Commissioner Gregory, to approve the minutes of November 14, 2000. The motion carried 4-0-3 with Commissioners Connor and Lingle abstaining and Commissioner Van Vliet absent. III. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS A. None 1 ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES IV. CASES A. Final Drawings 1. CASE NO.: PP/CUP 99-21 APPLICANT (AND ADDRESS): WILLIAM G. SMITH, FOREMOST BUSINESS PARKS, 25351 Alicia Parkway, Suite A, Laguna Hills, CA 92653 LEE ROTSHECK, Development Manager, Mammoth Equities LLC, 25383 Alicia Parkway, Suite L, Laguna Hills, CA 92653 RICK WALLACE, Valli Architectural Group, 81 Columbia, Suite 200, Aliso Viejo, CA 92656 NATURE OF PROJECT/APPROVAL SOUGHT: Approval of final working drawings LOCATION: 78-001 Country Club Drive 7.68 acres at Country Club Drive and Harris Lane ZONE: PC-2 (FCO) The Commission granted preliminary approval of plans for the self-storage facility during its December 14, 1999, meeting. The facility is a complex of eight buildings. Around the perimeter will be single-story structures and in the center there will be five, two-story buildings. The working drawings presented at this meeting have changed from those shown to the Commission a year ago. The interior buildings have been turned 90 degrees, the project has expanded, and the layout of the parking area to the west has been altered slightly. It is now on both sides of the entry driveway from Harris Lane. The Commission had recommended that the self-storage buildings be enhanced with more authentic looking southwestern architectural detailing. Commissioner Gregory asked the applicant to explain what improvements had been made per the Commission's comments at the last meeting. Mr. Lee Rotsheck, representing Foremost Business Parks, responded that, having picked up the project after the original submittal, he was looking for a design similar to the existing structures already there, ie, the adjacent Mobil station and the mini-mart. They wanted to capture the same effect and create continuity of design and feel. The intent was that they didn't want something that looked like a classic mini-storage. The inherent 2 ARCHITECTURAL REVIE OMMISSION lw� NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES functions of a mini-storage are contained within the interior, but you don't see that until entering into the facility. The exterior amenities and detailing have captured the essence of the surrounding architecture. Mr. Rick Wallace, Valli Architectural Group, picked up the project from the original designer and applicant. Their interpretation from the Commission's previous comments was to maintain the rounded edges that are traditional with the southwest look. For the line across the top, they took the interpretation to do it as a two-inch inset panel, in essence that is all masonry, so that would be 6 and 8-inch blocks with stucco over so it so would create a reveal giving them an opportunity to have an accent color and create a shadow on that plane. The articulation in the truncated columns that stick out and the trellis at the top are the sole improvements to what was initially a flat wall. Mr. Wallace suggested using a "wood sugar' (reddish brown) for the recessed accent walls and various shades of desert earth tones for the plaster walls, the truncated pilasters, wood fascia and treillage, and metal roll-up doors. Commissioner Vuksic asked if the vertical lines above the column features illustrated a change in plane or was that all in one plane. Mr. Wallace stated that it was just a control joint and is all the same plane. At the human scale, that's where the recess would be. Commissioner O'Donnell asked if they were given copies of the minutes from the meeting where preliminary approval was given as there were some comments regarding the lack of authenticity of the southwestern architectural detail and specific other details. He asked if the applicants could go to those notes and tell us how they satisfied those issues. Mr. Wallace interpreted that the details were on how it was constructed as opposed to adding more articulation. Commissioner O'Donnell read from the prior minutes, "the building be enhanced with more authentic looking southwestern architectural detail". He asked if they had done that. Mr. Wallace said that no, they hadn't, in that they were sticking with the subtle interpretation of the panel. Anything more than that, no. Commissioner Vuksic stated that it looks like the building needs quite a bit of work. The panel at the top needed to be broken up. The way to start would be to break up that plane by introducing shadow lines. Previously, there were some peeler poles to create some shadows. The trellis area is still maintained. The poles (outriggers) would project out. Commissioner Hanson stated that the poles looked too small and asked how big they were. The idea would be about 6 inch diameter. Commissioner Hanson 3 'f.✓ ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES expressed concern that 4x6 poles with this much mass were going to get lost and that they could do peeler poles without having to worry about bases. It would go more with the architecture. She suggested that they could do 15 to 18-inch peeler poles and get a better feel for it. Mr. Wallace agreed that they could increase the diameter of the poles. Commissioner Gregory recognized that they were new architects for this project. He explained that the Commission had concerns about the lack of southwestern detailing. He explained that the other buildings in that area were not within the City of Palm Desert boundaries when they were developed. The standards were lower than what the City expects and cautioned the applicant not to "down"their standards. He didn't think the changes would be that difficult to make. Mr. Wallace agreed that they seemed to be talking about enhancing the exterior skin from the street and to address the view where the 2-story buildings pop above the other buildings. Mr. Wallace thought they could address the suggestions and the scale of the components. nd d if the Commissioner Gregory bated that there was a sic finish with different lot of mass colorings oaare weee there buildings were all one different types of finishes that might break up the mass even more. Mr. Wallace responded that the proposed finish would be a knock-down trowel finish because of its more adobe looking. The knock-down trowel finish will introduce movement in the surface. Commissioner Vuksic suggested introducing some heavier material on the lower part and suggested getting ride of the horizontal appearance of the depressed areas as it is not inherent to the architecture and doesn't do anything to enhance the building. Having the depressions is good but they need to look at the proportions. Mr. Smith noted that the City Landscape Manager has reviewed the plans and would like to talk to the applicant's landscape architect. Commissioner Gregory would like to have the landscape submitted as a preliminary as it has not been before the Commission in a year's time. He stated that last time it was pretty raw and very complex. Applicant stated that there was plenty of setback so they can add components to dress up the wall. It was recommended that they go with a landscape appropriate for the desert, ie, water efficient, arid, and desert themed. Commissioner Vuksic stated that he believes that the planes need to be varied more than 2 inches. With the scale of these buildings, they need to be more substantial. And if there element would have to be height, arreed backcouldn't just be on the facade, ahigher 4 ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW OMMISSION r..� ti NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES Mr. Rotsheck stated that they had been caught a little off-guard explaining that their intent was not to diverge from the original plans believing it would be going away from the Commission's intent. With this opportunity, they will take in as much of the Commission's recommendations as possible, integrate them, and will do their utmost to bring it up to the Commission's expectations as quickly as they can. They stated that they would have to do some more research on authentic southwest detailing and asked if the Commission could give them examples of projects in the area, that would help them in terms of both the building and the landscaping so that they could apply that look easily. Commissioner Gregory asked Mr. Smith if maybe the architectural changes should be a quick study and brought back to the Commission rather than revise the entire working drawings. That would save them time in case they don't quite get it. Applicant was agreeable. Mr. Smith related that the next Commission meeting would be December 121'' Mr. Wallace noted that there were a couple of other schematic things that they didn't believe would have a substantive affect on the planning end that they wanted to run by the Commission. The two-story buildings in the center were re-oriented 90 degrees. Mr. Smith noted that the exterior rows of buildings are now 16 feet in height, where they were 12 feet, so one sees less of the interior at this point. Mr. Wallace stated that the Planning Commission wanted the palm trees on the interior at the ends of the buildings. Unfortunately, the layout of the openings for the spaces, precludes them from putting the palm trees in there. They would propose adding more palm trees in the exterior planter. The effect would provide more impact. Commissioner Gregory suggested that if they were considering putting them on Harris Lane which is more of a parkway landscape, they shouldn't just trade palm tree locations tit for tat. The entry drive further north on Harris Lane makes more sense because you can see through there and there's a reason for them being there. He understands the reason for them being removed from the southern portion. Commissioner Connor agreed and suggested that they not get too involved with palm trees. The Commission had recommended the plantings be a desert variety, that there be more lower story plantings rather than an overabundance of Palm Springs gold, and that a planter be added to the west of the adjacent Mobil station. The Commission recommended that the applicant's landscape designer check with the City's Landscape Manager for suggestions and approval. 5 ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES Action: Commissioner Hanson moved, seconded by Commissioner Connor, to continue the case with comments to the applicants to enhance with buildings with more authentic looking southwestern architectural detailing, to enhance the exterior skin form the street where you can see the 2-story buildings popping up, break up the horizontal plane at top, increase the diameter of the peeler poles (outriggers) to 15-18 inches, to give some thought to the finish of the buildings, to introduce heavier material on the lower sections, to get rid of the horizontal appearance of and improve the proportions of the depressed areas, to increase the dimension of the varied planes more than two inches, and to have the applicant's landscape designer check with the City's Landscape Manager about the landscape plan. The motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. 2. CASE NO.: Project No. 714-00 APPLICANT (AND ADDRESS): CITY OF PALM DESERT, 73-510 Waring Drive, Palm Desert, CA 92260 NATURE OF PROJECT/APPROVAL SOUGHT: Approval of Civic Center Park Amphitheater Upgrade LOCATION: Civic Center Park ZONE: P (Public Institution Mr. Reuel Young of Interactive Design Corporation presented drawings and 3-dimensional models of the proposed amphitheater. The existing amphitheater has been so successful it has exceeded the expectations of the City. A subcommittee was formed to investigate the possibility of expanding the capacity of the amphitheater for variety of performances. While the existing amphitheater will be torn down, the location of the new structure will be the same, the sculpting of seating terracing remains as is; and the control panel remains as it is. The fundamental basic requirements were that people who sit across the pond could see the activity, it had to be asymmetrical to be open, it had to be something that when nothing is going on it felt like it belonged in the park, and that it allowed a view to the mountains. The concept of an asymmetrical column planted on the lefthand side (stage right) on a lozenge-shaped stage with a tree-like canopy was created. Interactive Design Corporation consulted with Dean of Theater, USC; The McCallum Theater; and the Director of Fine Arts, COD. In every case, 6 Y ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28,2000 MINUTES their response was that this design provided a venue that was unique and would call for productions that would be signature here. It had to make sense in scale for a single speaker, a small group, or a large group to frame that stage. An early decision had been made to provide augmented audio; this would not be an acoustical shell. The infrastructure of the existing amphitheater was well thought out. The current capacity of 800 amps will match the needs for any performance. There is an existing 15 —inch underground conduit so that production companies who bring in their cables can make connections to the control panel. This concept can support a wide range of activities - amateur (limited production capabilities) to those things that take place already (the Riverside Philharmonic)to grand productions. Boulders will provide a framing of the 50' wide x 30' deep stage. The main stage is comparable in size to the McCallum. However, there is much more space around it. The boulders serve as backdrops and moveable walls. They also define the access to the stage. A corner of the stage can be used as a little story telling area (for classes), the base of the tree has seating platforms, and there is a shallow orchestra pit for as many as many a14-20 person assemble. The stage floor will be colored concrete and the stage will be wheelchair accessible. At the rear of the stage is a masonry building to be used for temporary storage (for musicians/actors props and baggage), permanent storage for City equipment, an alcove for a scissors-lift for use by production companies to come in and raise trusses with their lights on them, a dimmer panel room to control the permanently set non-colored lights, a restroom, a "green" room, and in general, room for support staff and production assistants. The structure will not have any moving permanent parts because of dust and heat. The production companies will bring their own winches to hook their equipment to the pick points in the structure. There will be a modest program of externally shielded lights. The main feature's concept is that of an asymmetrical tree with a sculptural quality. The trunk is cantilevered 5'5" in diameter with spars adding between 18-24" each to the diameter, 36 feet top to bottom with a 60 foot wide canopy designed to look like tree branches and leaves. This 7 r ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES facility is shaded and weather shedding but not weather proof. What captures the attention is the beauty of the canopy's lace-like structure. The decision was made to use tension fabric panels for a more natural look instead of metal panels. The panels are shaped to fit within the "branches" of the tree and proposed to be translucent in effect. There will be three layers of fabric designed to give a dappled, leafy effect. From a distance, at night, a glow will emanate from the canopy. The fabric has a 20-year life span and has been used at the Denver Airport and the Saudi Arabia Airport. They can be removed and/or replaced individually. To stay within the natural look of earthen tones, it is anticipated that Corten steel will be used. It is self-healing, ie, it rusts, but the rust protects it and it doesn't corrode. The premise is to have it warm and earthen with veins of green rather than shiny. Mr. Young stated that parts of the metal trunk in the sun will get hot and that there is more shade on west side than on the east side. He stated that they were looking into some kind of procedure being developed so that the steel won't be bare at the base. Structurally, an engineer took the longest branch and loaded with lateral, dead weight, and wind, the load on 10% of the members are stressed to only 30% of their capacity at maximum. The design is well within the capability of this technology to build. it is so heavy, wind is not a consideration. And because of its cantilevered design, earthquakes are not problematic. Commissioner Hanson asked about the effect of wind within the panels. Commissioner Dickinson of AIPP expressed that it could make a sound such as a reed instrument as the wind passes through or resonance with the metal. It was suggested that perhaps the structure could be place in a wind tunnel. The estimated construction cost is less than $2 million which includes all landscaping, the removal of the existing structure, the design fee, the lighting, infrastructure, stage, the behind-the-stage building, boulders, new walks, and the tree. The "tree" is about $350,000, half of what was anticipated. Commissioner Gregory mentioned that this being a "living" design, there will have to be some tweaking to the structure. 8 ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES The Commission believes that something like this should go into the park; it is innovative and attractive even when not in use. It would become the center piece of the park and a City landmark. Action: Commissioner Vuksic moved, seconded by Commissioner Hanson, to recommend that the City Council approve the amphitheater design as presented. Motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. 3. CASE NO.: SA 00-115 APPLICANT (AND ADDRESS: IMPERIAL SIGN COMPANY, 46-120 Calhoun, Indio, CA 92201, for MAIL and MORE NATURE OF PROJECT/APPROVAL SOUGHT: Approval of business identification signage LOCATION: 73-965 Hwy. 111 ZONE: C-1 The applicant is requesting internally illuminated, reverse channel letters in red for "Mail and More" and also a small logo can box reading "alla prima gallery" in dark bronze vinyl letters on an ivory plex face. The logo sign sits below and to the right of the "Mail and More" letters. In effect, the applicant will be operating two businesses out of the same facility, therefore the difference in the signage for the two businesses. Staff feels that the way the two signs are laid out is awkward. The applicant occupies half of this store front. Therefore, another occupant could want to have signage on the other half. Commissioner Vuksic suggested either putting both types of signs on one line or centering the logo sign either above or below the "Mail and More" lettering. Commissioner O'Donnell and Hanson suggested the signs be arranged in a triangular shape because it brings the "Mail and More" letters down and looks more balanced. Commissioner O'Donnell moved, seconded by Commissioner Hanson, to grant approval to the signage with the comments that the oval can sign be placed over the reverse channel letters "Mail and More". 9 '*rpool ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES Mr. Jim Pollard, the applicant, questioned the necessity of making the suggested changes when compared to other signage in the same area. Commissioner Gregory explained that most of those signs had gone up prior to the City's current sign program and that every time someone comes in, the Commission is attempting to improve that area. He stated that the Commission was giving him what he wanted, just rearranging it to add balance. It was further pointed out that there were two very different styles incorporated. Mr. Pollard stated that he was looking at it from an advertising point of view, ie, separating the two signs. This building having multiple occupants must have some sort of sign program. Commissioner Gregory would suggest that the building owner signs off on it. Commissioner Vuksic asked if they were approving something that might become a sign program, ie, was this a sign program evolving? He asked if the Commission wanted to approve a can sign as this might set a precedent for what happens on the other side of this building. Commissioner Gregory asked if we wanted to approve a can sign which will become a part of the sign program for this building. Mr. Pollard pointed out that there were a few other can signs along that portion of Hwy. 111. Action: Commissioner O'Donnell moved, seconded by Commissioner Hanson, to withdraw his motion. Motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. Action: Commissioner Vuksic moved, seconded by Commissioner Connor, to continue the case per the applicant's request. Motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. 4. CASE NO.: RV 00-7 APPLICANT (AND ADDRESS): MARION FERGUSON, 74-898 Leslie Avenue, Palm Desert, CA 92260 NATURE OF PROJECT/APPROVAL SOUGHT: Approval to park RV tent trailer in driveway LOCATION: 74-898 Leslie Avenue ZONE: R-1 10 ARCHITECTURAL REVIVW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES This case has been before the Commission four times. Applicant was present at the first meeting. Commissioners Vuksic and Gregory had driven by the residence. Commissioner Vuksic recommended denying the request. He stated that adding plants on either side of the trailer would be beneficial in reducing the window of view, but would create a hazardous condition because the view of the intersection is blocked. While it is just a tent trailer with less mass than a car or truck, this looks like something that is stored on the driveway. Should consent be given to store the tent trailer in its present location, that consent goes with the house should it be sold. Action: Commissioner Vuksic moved, seconded by Commissioner Connor, to deny this request because there is not substantial screening of the tent trailer and if substantial screening were achieved, it would create a hazardous traffic condition on the corner. Motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. 5. CASE NO.: PP 00-15 APPLICANT (AND ADDRESS): NORWALK FURNITURE STORE, c/o JOE RUBENSTEIN, 150 Oakway Road, Eugene, OR 97401 NATURE OF PROJECT/APPROVAL SOUGHT: Approval of final working drawings for 5,550 square foot furniture store LOCATION: 73-495 Highway 111 ZONE: C-1 Staff provided updated final working drawings to the Commission and recommended approval. Action: Commissioner Connor moved, seconded by Commissioner Vuksic, to approve the final working drawings subject to future review by the Commission of the landscaping. The motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. 6. CASE NO.: MISC 00-31 APPLICANT (AND ADDRESS: MARK B. VALENTINO, AIA Architect, 44-267 Monterey Avenue, Suite B, Palm Desert, CA 92260 for Marc LeBlanc 11 ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES NATURE OF PROJECT/APPROVAL SOUGHT: Approval of final working drawings for 16' 6" single family residence LOCATION: 43-600 San Pasqual ZONE: R-2 Staff provided final working drawings of the single family resident to be located at 43-600 San Pasqual and recommended approval. Action: Commissioner Connor moved, seconded by Commissioner Vuksic, to approve the final working drawings. The motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. 7. CASE NO.: SA 00-122 APPLICANT (AND ADDRESS): BRUCE ADAMS, Quiel Bros. Sign Company, 272 South I Street, San Bernardino, CA 92410, for Pharmacy Skateboards NATURE OF PROJECT/APPROVAL SOUGHT: Approval of business identification signage LOCATION: Desert Crossing Shopping Center ZONE: Staff requested that this case be put on today's agenda. Action: Commissioner Lingle moved, seconded by Commissioner Connor, to add this case to the current agenda. The motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. Mr. Alvarez distributed colored renderings of the proposed business signage to be located in the Desert Crossing Shopping Center. The word Pharmacy is to be red individual channel letters sitting over an 8-foot long oval can sign with the word "Skateboards" in red. This storefront does not face the street. Staff noted that there are no other can signs located within the shopping center, but this one had been approved by the Center's management. Staff suggested that the white background on the can sign be muted in color to an opaque white background, not illuminated. Only the words Pharmacy and Skateboards will be illuminated at night. 12 ARCHITECTURAL REV`T�W COMMISSION *00, NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES Commissioner Connor expressed concern that there were no other can signs in the shopping center and this may be setting a precedent. Discussion followed that many logo signs are can signs and are generally not overwhelming in size. The Commission stated that should the subject come up again, can signs will be limited to logos. Commissioner Conner stated that the "Skateboards" can sign should be reduced in size from eight feet to six feet and 24 inches in height. Action: Commissioner Connor moved, seconded by Commissioner Lingle, approved the signage with the following changes: 1) that the white background on the can sign be opaque, 2) only the words Pharmacy and Skateboards will be illuminated at night, 3) the size of the can sign be reduced to 6 feet in length and 24 inches in height. The motion carried 6- 0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. B. PRELIMINARY PLANS 1. CASE NO.: PP/CUP 98-5 APPLICANT (AND ADDRESS: MARRIOTT OWNERSHIP RESORTS, INC., 6649 Westwood Boulevard, Suite 500, Orlando, FL 32809-6090 NATURE OF PROJECT/APPROVAL SOUGHT: Approval of revised preliminary drawings for villas at Shadow Ridge and recommended approval. LOCATION: 36-750 Monterey ZONE: PR-5 Staff presented the Commission with color renderings of the revised preliminary drawings for the villas at Shadow Ridge. Action: Commissioner Connor moved, seconded by Commissioner Vuksic, to approve the revised preliminary drawings. The motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. 13 ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES 2. CASE NO.: MISC 00- APPLICANT (AND ADDRESS): CHARLES GARLAND, GLS GROUP, 74-854 Velie Way, Suite #5, Palm Desert, CA 92260 JD DESERT DEVELOPMENT, 75-1160 St. Charles Place, Palm Desert, CA 92211 NATURE OF PROJECT/APPROVAL SOUGHT: Approval of two single family models for a 20-lot subdivision LOCATION: Bald Eagle Lane (north side of Hovley Lane West), TT 25373 ZONE: PR 5 Per recommendations of the Commission, a site plan showed a variation in the setbacks to 20, 24, and 26 feet throughout the tract to get a feel of depth. The homes have been lowered to 17 feet, 4 inches and have hip roofs, there is recessing on the windows, and fur outs and details along all four sides. There is more contrast in the stucco colors. Mr. Charles Garland and Mr. David Brudvik were present. Commissioner Vuksic commented that on Plans 1 and 2, the entry structure is one plane that is flowing into the roof structure. Applicant thought maybe they could bring the entry structure down. Commissioner Hanson suggested that on Plan 2, the patio column elements be moved out from the house giving the residents a larger outside living space and breaking up the plain roof line by adding a hip roof. The applicant stated that the wainscot is 2x4 and should be shown as coming out 3.5 inches. Action: Commissioner Vuksic moved, seconded by Commissioner Hanson, to grant preliminary approval to the plans for the two models with the following comments: 1) the entry structures be lowered on both plans, 2) extend the patio and cover on Plan 2 to put in a hip roof element, and 3) bring the wainscot out 3.5 inches. Motion carried 6-0-1 with Commissioner Van Vliet absent. 14 ARCHITECTURAL RENEW COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2000 MINUTES V. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 2:00 p.m. STEVE SMITH PLANNING MANAGER 15 *Ago"