HomeMy WebLinkAbout0921 MINUTES
PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING
TUESDAY - SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
7 :00 P.M. - CIVIC CENTER COUNCIL CHAMBER
73-510 FRED WARING DRIVE.
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I . CALL TO ORDER
Chairman Spiegel called the meeting to order at 7 : 00 p.m.
II . PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
Commissioner Jonnthan led in the pledge of allegiance.
III . ROLL CALL
Members Present: Bob Spiegel, Chairman
Paul Beaty
Diane Cox
Sabby Jonathan
Carol Whitlock
Members Absent: None
Staff Present: Ray Diaz Paul Shillcock
Marshall Rudolph Dick Folkers
Eric Johnson Tonya Monroe
IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Consideration of the September 7, 1993 meeting minutes .
Action:
Moved by Commissioner Whitlock, seconded by Commissioner Cox,
approving the September 7, 1993 meeting minutes as submitted.
Carried 5-0.
V. SUMMARY OF COUNCIL ACTION:
Mr. Diaz summarized pertinent September 9, 1993 city council
action.
VI . CONSENT CALENDAR
A. Case No. PMW 93-12 - FRANK MILLER, Applicant
Request for approval of a parcel map
waiver to merge two lots or San Luis
Drive.
Action:
Moved by Commissioner Whitlock, seconded by Commissioner
two Beaty, approving consent calendar item A by minute motion.
Carried 5-0.
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
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B. Case No. PMW 93-13 - ROBERT B. VARNER, Applicant
Request for approval of a lot line
adjustment between two residential lots
located in the Sunterrace development on
the north side of Hovley Lane west of
Eldorado.
C. Case No. PMW 93-14 - ROBERT B. VARNER, Applicant
Request for approval of a lot line
adjustment between two residential lots
located in the Sunterrace development on
the north side of Hovley Lane west of
Eldorado.
Commissioner Jonathan asked if the result would be that the
adjusted lots would be the same or larger in size. Mr. Diaz '
concurred.
Action:
Moved by Commissioner Jonathan, seconded by Commissioner Cox,
approving consent calendar items B and C by minute motion.
Carried 5-0 .
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VIII . MISCELLANEOUS
Chairman Spiegel indicated the commission would discuss
Miscellaneous Item A at this time.
A. Status Report on Landscaping Improvement Program for
President' s Plaza East Parking Lot
Mr. Diaz explained that Mr. Johnson, the city' s landscape
consultant, was present to give a report on the President' s
Plaza parking lot study that he completed.
Mr. Johnson stated that he made a study of the area and the
need for trees was quite apparent. He thought they needed to
work on the selection of the types of trees that could be
used to give good shade to the area. He suggested two trees :
1) Virginia Live Oak was his first choice because it had a
big canopy and was evergreen, as well as being good for
parking lot conditions; and 2) Rio Grande Ash Tree, which was
deciduous and dropped its leaves in the winter months at one
time and was moderate growing. He felt the issue to look at ;
was the spacing of the trees so that there was good shade as :,
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soon as possible. He stated that the Live Oak would give
faster coverage than the Rio Grande Ash or any other types of
trees discussed previously. It took between four and six
years to get good coverage from almost any tree planted. He
said the rest of the report was an estimate of costs . If the
Virginia Oak was used, the city would probably not have to
use as many trees because of the canopy spread of the trees .
Using other trees, 73 trees would be required.
Commissioner Whitlock asked if the Fan Tex Ash had droppings
or pods; Mr. Johnson said that some do--the Fan Tex shed one
time in the winter months, but many others had flowers and
seed pods that dropped.
Commissioner Beaty asked if Mr. Johnson was proposing that
the city use all the same species, or a mixture. Mr. Johnson
said that was another alternative and it would make a more
interesting look. He said the advantage of having a
deciduous tree in winter months was that the parking lot
signs could be seen. The density of the shade of the oak
tree was much better. Commissioner Beaty thanked Mr. Johnson
for his response to commission' s questions about parking lots
and had done an exceptional job.
Mr. Diaz indicated that there needed to be money in the
budget and the direction to staff would be to instruct them
to carry this forward to the executive management committee
of the city staff and instruct Mr. Diaz to come back to
commission with a report on their reaction. That way it went
to city staff.
Action:
Moved by Commissioner Whitlock, seconded by Commissioner
Beaty, instructing staff by minute motion to discuss this
matter with executive management and report back to
commission.
Commissioner Jonathan spoke to the motion and asked who
owned President' s Plaza. Mr. Diaz stated that it was
his understanding that President' s Plaza was part of a
parking easement which fell under the parking
authority' s jurisdiction. He said that when it was
originally subdivided, the back 100 feet of each lot
facing both E1 Paseo and Highway 111 was set aside for
mutual parking. His understanding was that it was owned
in common. He believed that the parking authority owned
it. Commissioner Jonathan indicated that the
surrounding tenants benefited from the parking lot
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without charge. He recognized the need that existed in
that particular place, but felt it might be an equal
need to many other locations and was uncomfortable
singling out this particular spot in the city and
i recommending to the city that they should invest
f $28,000 . Mr. Diaz stated that they were not
recommending, but moving the matter up. Commissioner
Jonathan felt they were starting that process and his
personal preference would be to begin a process that
looked at the entire city and picked out various spots
that needed this because there was not just one and not
do it in a piece-meal fashion. They could begin a
process that identified all the areas of need within the ,,
city and then adopt a comprehensive plan that resulted !
in shading for those areas; perhaps through a '.
cooperative effort between the city, private citizens
and property owners . Mr. Diaz stated that in this
particular case he did not believe they were talking as
much about shading as appearance. In terms of doing a
city wide parking study, what would end up happening was
that they would be glad to do it, but it would take a
j year or two years from now to come back to the
commission with something. If there were specific
areas, and President' s Plaza East had an appearance
problem, staff looked at it. Citywide in terms of the
commercial areas he disagreed that there was a problem.
Commissioner Jonathan said that the subject of the memo
was shade tree planting and when the matter was brought
up, Chairman Spiegel also mentioned the Town Center
parking lot and shading that was needed there, as well
as other areas . He said that he did not want to stand
in the way of what was happening here, but he wanted to
see as part of this process that was beginning that it
be a comprehensive plan for shading throughout the city
for existing developments that came in prior to the
shading ordinance. Mr. Diaz said that they were working
on that, but staff concentrated on this to get back to
the commission. Staff was also looking at the present
shading ordinance and legislation and mentioned the
report that revealed that in some cases the city was
making the private sector provide and maintain trees
that the city couldn't even keep up with and those were
eliminated and staff was redoing that and would be
coming back to the commission with a final report.
Commissioner Cox noted that $28,000 was a lot of money
and whether there was money in the budget or not had to
be considered. She believed that this was a good step
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too forward to make this particular parking lot an example
of what the city would like to see done. They had to
start someplace to show people that it could be done and
shade could be provided in the hot summer months and
would look attractive for shoppers to the area. She
said that she would like to see this sent on and for
something to happen whether it was in President's Plaza
or at the Town Center. She wanted an example for
developers and also customers to show that they cared
how the city looked, if there was money available. Mr.
Diaz indicated that the problem was not that they
couldn't show that it could be done, but the question
was should the tax payers spend money. If it was so
beneficial to the business community to have the shaded
parking and the plans were drawn up, who should pay for
it. Those were things that would be discussed at
executive management. If they were talking about an
example project that people could go to, maybe one of
the parking lots in the park could be done and that
would show it could be done but was not directly
benefiting. He said that he would come back to the
commission with a report on where staff was going with
it.
Chairman Spiegel called for the vote. Motion carried 5-0 .
VII. PUBLIC HEARINGS
A. Continued Case No. GPA 93-3 - CITY OF PALM DESERT,
Applicant
Request for recommendation of approval
to city council for a Negative
Declaration of Environmental Impact and
an amendment to the General Plan Land
Use and Circulation Elements .
Mr. Diaz stated that staff was requesting a continuance to
October 5, 1993. He said that there were some items that
still needed to be worked out.
Action:
Moved by Commissioner Whitlock, seconded by Commissioner Cox,
continuing GPA 93-3 to October 5, 1993 by minute motion.
Carried 5-0.
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B. Continued Case No. CUP 93-3 Section 4 - RONALD ODEKIRK, �rri
Applicant
Request for approval of a conditional
use permit to construct and operate a 20
acre multi-use, pay for play, recreation
facility to be located on 20 acres of
City of Palm Desert owned land zoned R-
1-M located on the southeast corner of
Frank Sinatra Drive and Portola Avenue.
Mr. Diaz stated that this matter had been continued with the
commission' s instruction to have the parties meet and try to
work out their differences based on the last location. At
the last hearing the resolution before the commission was a
recommendation resolution to the city council in terms of
approval . As a result of the city council ' s action at their
last meeting, the matter before commission was final unless
called up for review or appealed to council . The entire
facility was moved approximately 800 feet south along Portola
Avenue. Access was only from Portola Avenue. All the
parking was off Portola. The baseball fields were designed
to minimize the view of the lighting standards to the north,
particularly when the lights were on; however, he said the
conditions of approval as set forth originally made it clear low
that the lighting had to meet the standards that had been
established here in the civic center park for the lighted
fields . There could not be any outside lighting or increase
in ambient light level on Portola or Frank Sinatra and the
glare would be taken care of. There was a question raised at
the last hearing about the height of the structure above the
basketball courts . That height limit modification would
require, if over 24 feet high, a zoning ordinance
modification or amendment to allow that to be determined by
the council . In all the planned commercial and planned
residential zones, the city council could waive the maximum
height requirement if it could be demonstrated that the
distance from the streets and from other adjoining
developments and property made it so the additional height
could be accomplished without having any negative impact on
the views to those properties . This was done in the case of
the Marriott Desert Springs . In the R-1-M zone that
particular provision was not placed in there, so the R-1-M
zone would have to be amended to allow that in order to allow
the covering on the basketball courts if it was more than 24
feet high. Along Frank Sinatra there was landscaping
provided and in conversations with the property owner to the
north, he indicated that he did not particularly want a
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separate berm, but would like to see the landscaping
contemplated for the rest of the facility (golf courses)
carried across and at such time as the conference center was
developed, then the appropriate breaks would be made. The
conference center site would be turfed, otherwise there would
be a blow sand problem. The property owner to the north
indicated that he would like that planting brought further
south and intensified around the ballfields and with special
emphasis given to design the landscape plan with high trees
and bushes to hide the light standards of the ball
facilities . At one point staff looked at telescope type
lighting facilities, but discovered that he was 15 to 20
years before his time because they didn't do them because it
was impossible to control the lighting to the extent that the
city wants . Staff proposed that the final landscaping plan
as approved by the architectural commission would take "great
pains" to screen the light standards from view during the
daytime, which would minimize glare in the evening. He said
that he would have more conditions after the public testimony
portion. The facility' s conditions remained basically as it
was for the southeast corner of Portola and Frank Sinatra,
which were similar to the conditions on Hovley. The hours of
operation had been changed, although the applicant was not
asking for as early a starting time as staff indicated, staff
proposed the earlier starting time because it wouldn't make
any difference and was not a point of contention at this
point and he did not want to have other public hearings if
the applicant wanted to have a softball tournament during the
week during the daytime. Staff recommended the hours of
operation as listed. The critical question which the
commission had to decide was the closing time; whether 10:00
p.m. or 11 : 00 p.m. For consumption and sales of alcoholic
beverages, the conditions were the same and a plan would have
to be submitted to the police department and approved by them
and the method of patrolling or evaluating, that condition
would have to be placed. He said there were two conditions
he would add now--the applicant should have an opportunity to
respond to any conditions added after the public testimony.
One condition was that the applicant would make the facility
available for an appropriate period and time to Palm Desert
Youth Sports activities; set period and time to be approved
by the Palm Desert City Council. The second condition was
that the applicant would make the facility available for at
least 15 days per year for staging in a manner approved by
the city for special events or golf tournaments . Mr. Diaz
said they were principally concerned about golf tournaments
when the golf course was completed, but the reason he said
for special events or golf tournaments, that way there
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wouldn't have to be another hearing and these issues would goo
ultimately be worked out as part of the financial and
construction package between the city and the applicant.
Also, the commission had letters from Mr. Bill Swank Sr. and
from Mr. John Musial, the developers of the property to the
north, which called for additional studies, and included an
independent professional lighting engineering study and light
towers to be shielded by tall trees. That would be placed on
the project and would be conditions of approval that would be
implemented prior to issuance of any building permit. For
the record he clarified that building permit meant
construction above ground; grading could proceed.
Commissioner Whitlock asked which two conditions from Mr.
Swank' s letter that staff was automatically adding; Mr. Diaz
said regarding the lighting study, and he would remove the
word independent, a professional lighting engineer should be
engaged to prepare a lighting study in order to minimize the
negative impact on adjoining properties and to insure that
the conditions set forth in the resolution are implemented.
Those conditions were that there would not be any increase in
the ambient light level on streets . The second one would be
that the light towers would be shielded from view by tall
trees and appropriate landscaping as approved by the
architecturalAlthough commission. Althou h not a condition on the .rr�►
resolution, as part of the record the property owner to the
north, Mr. Swank, would be notified when those plans were
before the architectural commission so that he could review
them. Mr. Diaz explained that architectural commission did
not have noticed public hearings and staff would make a point
of notifying him so that he could see how that condition was
being implemented.
Commissioner Whitlock asked why the consideration of sinking
the ballfields was eliminated from the Hovley site to the new
site. Mr. Diaz replied that one reason was that the
topographical differences between this site and the Hovley
site and one concern they ended u had was that if they p
sinking the ballfields on this site, they might be sinking
them to the point where the lighting would be harder to
control in terms of the impact of glare on the street level .
Also, staff could control the lighting on this site and the
fields were designed without necessarily sinking them.
II; Commissioner Jonathan noted that the Department of Community
Development Condition #13 indicated that alcoholic beverages
would be served and consumed only in specific locations, but
did not limit alcoholic beverages to beer and wine, which he
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believed was the intent. Mr. Diaz stated that it was an
oversight and would be added to the conditions that alcoholic
beverages would be limited to beer and wine, if that was what
the commission wanted. Commissioner Jonathan said that just
after the County Fire Department conditions there was a
section called "Other" and item one on page 8 referred to
adjusting the turning radius and item two referred to
providing 20 foot all weather fire lanes and turnaround area-
-he was not sure if this applied to the current proposal or
was a hold over from the Hovley location. Mr. Diaz stated
that it applied to the current proposal and would be
integrated into the proposed plan and it would have to be
revised accordingly. Commissioner Jonathan stated that the
Exhibit A, Negative Declaration, referred to 20 acres located
on the southeast corner of Frank Sinatra and Portola Avenue
and asked if it would be adjusted to reflect the new
location. Mr. Diaz replied yes, the Negative Declaration in
terms of environmental impact really meant the entire site
and that would be changed. He said for the record that when
the new plan was received, staff went through and evaluated
the negative declaration and the questions and the answers
were the same in terms of the new plan and location.
Commissioner Jonathan said that when Mr. Diaz referred to the
15 days the facility would be available minimum for special
events, he did not mean the use of the facility; Mr. Diaz
said it would be for staging area for the golf uses .
Commissioner Jonathan said that they had not seen specifics
of the plan (i.e. height, building design, etc. ) in any
detail and asked if it would come back to them or if they
were just approving the conditional use permit. Mr. Diaz
stated that it could come back to the commission if they
wished to see it, normally the elevations were approved by
the architectural commission. It could come back to the
commission as an informational item. Commissioner Jonathan
noted there were questions raised about heights of buildings.
Mr. Diaz said that there was a height limit in the R-1-M zone
of 24 feet so that anything above that height would take an
amendment to the R-1-M ordinance. In the planned commercial
and planned residential ordinances there were provisions that
the city council could modify the height limits if certain
things could be demonstrated; that was not done in the R-1-M
zone so that amendment needed to be there. That was an
oversight when the zone was created. What the commission
would approve was a conditional use permit; the two story
concession stand had to be 24 feet in height. The big
question was the tent over the basketball court and unless it
was going to be 24 feet, it could not be constructed.
Commissioner Jonathan noted the lighting standards would be
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an re exception; Mr. Diaz lied that the ordinance related to .rr�
P P
building height.
Chairman Spiegel asked how high the conference center on the
corner would be at Frank Sinatra and Portola. Mr. Diaz said
staff did not know at this point, but it would definitely be
higher than one story. In terms of the number of rooms, he
did not anticipate it being more than three stories .
Chairman Spiegel stated that if it was in place, it would
hide a great deal of the ball park. Mr. Diaz concurred.
Chairman Spiegel noted that the stands were being done away
with and they were now using terraced turf for seating; he
asked if there was any particular reason for that. Mr. Diaz
indicated that the applicant could address that issue.
Chairman Spiegel opened the public hearing and asked the
applicant to address the commission.
MR. RICHARD ODEKIRK, 43-670 Lisbon Way in Palm Desert,
stated that he was available for questions . He said the
area down the foul line that had turfed seating was
never stands; the stands went down the length of the
baseline and was always a warm up area for the players
of the next game and remained the same. For special
events the area down the foul line would allow for
temporary seating, but there would be no stands down the
line, only the basic seating which extended as far as
the base. From home plate down to the base there were
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stands .
Commissioner Beaty asked what the seating was per field.
'I
Mr. Odekirk stated that there were approximately 200
fans per field, and that would only be used in special
events. His architect, Mr. Holden, was present also to
answer questions .
j Commissioner Whitlock asked how many light standards were
required per ballfield.
Mr. Odekirk answered that at this time there would be
li four light standards per ballfield. Also, the tensile
structure was not 56 feet tall, but approximately 40
feet tall, give or take one foot or two. That was the
standard tensile structure.
Commissioner Cox asked Mr. Odekirk to point out where the
lights would be located; Mr. Odekirk did so. Commissioner
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Cox noted there would be a total of 12 lights . Mr. Diaz
stated that unless commission had a specific number of light
standards in mind as being acceptable, right now they did not
have a lighting plan and that was what was called for. There
was a lighting standard and there might be ways of meeting
that lighting standard that might call for more light poles
at different heights . He did not want to say right now to a
lighting engineer that here was a standard he had to meet,
but only with a certain number of poles . He said that all
poles would have to be screened per the other condition.
Commissioner Cox said that they would go with specific
standards and whatever it took to get to the standard would
be done; Mr. Diaz concurred. Commissioner Whitlock noted the
question was what was custom and they were told the standard
was four light poles per field. Commissioner Beaty indicated
that one standard between two fields might be shared. Mr.
Diaz said that one pole with lights on both sides might be
possible and would also save money.
Commissioner Beaty stated that he was in attendance when the
lighting engineer did the study for the civic center park and
asked if it could be assumed that the same requirements and
type of state of the art lighting would be employed. Mr.
Diaz replied yes.
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Chairman Spiegel asked if anyone wished to speak in FAVOR or
OPPOSITION to the proposal .
MR. LON RUBIN, Palm Desert Golf Partners and C.T. Golf,
the proposed developers of the section 4 north sphere
project. He stated that at the end of the last planning
commission meeting they were asked to get together with
the Odekirks to determine whether or not the differences
could be resolved. Their golf course architect met with.
the Odekirks during the past two weeks and as a result
of that meeting the sports park was in its present
location. He felt that the design in its present
location was not incompatible with their master plan and
as a result they were not opposed to the sports park in
its present location and they felt it did not inhibit
the quality and design of the golf course.
MS. BARBARA HASSON, a full-time resident in the Villas
at Desert Falls, expressed a strong objection to the pay
for play sports complex. She stated that she was
horrified and surprised that the planning commission/
city council would consider such a heavy duty commercial
project in a predominately residential community area.
vow
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The more information she gathered, the more upset she '
became. She understood that the project was originally
to be located on Hovley. The location changed due to
the vehement objection of nearby local residents . She
felt it belonged in another area in a commercial zone,
not in the midst of a residential area. Her main
objections were that to her knowledge there had not been
formal environmental or traffic studies done. The
commercial complex did not conform to the area and an
approximate 40 foot tent like structure was over the
city's height restriction and would require a variance.
The high density night lights were not in the best
interests of the surrounding residential areas . The ,
lights would eliminate the dark sky at night. The
concession stand selling liquor did not enhance the
family environment that a sports complex should have; it
only added to commercial gain. Children' s sports areas,
baseball and soccer, that would presumably use the
facility would go against their own Little League
charters because of liquor being served in the stands .
She asked if this was the type of family entertainment
the city wanted. This type of commercial complex would
attract undesirable persons using it as a "hang out" .
She was told a video arcade was planned for the complex
and with liquor and video arcades, this would be a great Now
hang out for teenagers and gangs and whatever else came
with them. The recession resulted in a significant
decline in property values . This type of heavy duty
commercial neighbor would cause a further decrease in
property values. She asked if the commission would buy
a home with this use as their neighbor. The City of
Palm Desert was giving the developer a below market
interest rate plus land to develop an "eyesore" and by
her calculation the developer was only putting up a
million dollars, the rest was coming from the city' s
money; she asked if she was correct. She said that
there were many families in the area with hopefully more
moving in. They were desperately in need of family
oriented facilities for the children to help the
community grow--not adult oriented pay for play
commercial complexes with video arcades and liquor being
served. She felt that if the city had excess funds,
they should take the money and build the kids baseball
and soccer parks that could be used by families. Invest
in the children and the Palm Desert lifestyle, not in a
very large commercial venture. The proposed
championship golf course for the area would not be
benefited by the sports complex, not socially, visually,
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vow or aesthetically. If the project were to economically
fail and default on the loan as so many businesses were
because of the economic climate today, the tax payers
would pay the deficit with their tax money. She asked
that the atmosphere, lifestyle and social climate of
their neighborhood not be spoiled with this
unattractive, unwanted project. She thanked the
commission for their time and attention and hoped that
the decision would be in the best interest of the
residents, not commercial gain.
Chairman Spiegel stated that video games were not part of the
complex nor was it ever a part of the complex. He asked Mr.
Odekirk to correct him if he was wrong. Secondly, the
planning commission was not there to debate the financing of
the project; that decision would be made by the city council .
The planning commission was there to decide if the facility
was appropriate for the planned location.
MR. DICK WOLF, a resident of the Lakes, stated that they
were located rather closely to the planned project and
he had a few questions. He said he became aware of the
project yesterday and asked if the planning commission
or city council in the past had solicited the input of
the residents adjacent to some of the planned projects .
They had recently been through a similar situation with
the northwest corner of Cook and Country Club where they
found themselves confronted with a 20-25 acre commercial
development. There was quite a bit of public objection
to the development of that facility and all of them had
the feeling that they were not adequately notified of
the fact that this project was being contemplated. He
had lived in Palm Desert for four years and the
development he referred to had been zoned commercial for
some eight years prior to that. He did not know how
long the planning had gone on for this development, but
the f irst time he heard about it was last night. He
knew that many of the Lakes residents were unaware of
it. He came to the meeting and found the commission
discussing finite details such as the height of the
lighting standards, whether the baseball park would be
elevated or depressed, and had the feeling that he was
addressing the barn door after the horse was lost. He
felt the planning commission at an earlier stage should
solicit the input of the neighbors and not necessarily
in the 600 foot radius mandated, but in a wider space.
He heard about the likelihood that beer and wine would
be permitted on this facility and they had gone to
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considerable effort to eliminate the existence of a
sports bar in the commercial facility at Cook and
Country Club. To find one being erected this close by
disturbed him greatly. He did not know if this facility
would be a benefit to the residents of Palm Desert or
not. He did know that in that neighborhood there were
some country club facilities where the population was
highly weighted on the retired age side, not people
likely to play soccer or baseball in a facility such as
this . He wondered if the facility would be beneficial
to Palm Desert residents or whether they would be
attracting people utilizing the facility from areas
outside the community. At the present time he wanted to
voice his personal objection to the existence of the
facility pending some additional information on exactly
how it was structured, and why the City of Palm Desert
was contributing its land and a substantial amount of
money to commercial development. He wondered why, if
this was a worthwhile project, the applicants weren't
undertaking to do it themselves . He requested that the
planning commission solicit further input from residents
of Palm Desert, perhaps within a radius of a half mile
from the proposed development.
Commissioner Jonathan noted that this project was not exactly ..
adjacent to the Lakes; he was not sure a half of a mile would
even get him notified. He felt the city did a good job of
notifying the property owners and once in a while for some
reason some did slip by, but it was an exception rather than
the rule. He said that whatever happened in the city was not
too far from anyone because the city wasn't too large. He
stated that the planning commission met on the first and
third Tuesdays of every month and they were public meetings
and anyone was welcome.
Mr. Wolf thanked Commissioner Jonathan for his comments
and stated that it might be worthwhile if the city
council were to consider publishing an agenda each
meeting that was mailed to all the residents of Palm
Desert.
Commissioner Jonathan said the agenda was available through
the city. Chairman Spiegel stated that it was pu
blished in
the Desert Post.
Mr. Diaz stated that the planning commission' s agenda was not
published in the Desert Post, but in terms of this particular
notice, the city sent the notice to the homeowners
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
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association boards for the Lakes, Desert Falls, Palm Desert
Greens and Silver Sands . Also, he advises anyone that calls
him to give the city 26 self-addressed stamped envelopes and
the agendas would be mailed to them of all planning
commission meetings; he also advises them to do the same for
the city clerk's office to receive city council agendas . The
last thing staff wanted was for people not to know about
meetings . He noted that the Lakes was a mile away, so even
if everyone within a half mile was notified, they wouldn't
have received it. He stated that he was instructed by the
commission to make sure the notices went to the homeowners
associations of all the adjoining clubs and properties and
that was done.
MR. WILLIAM SWANK, 55-550 Riviera in La Quinta, stated
that he was a partner in the development to the north
and appreciated being invited to review the plans last
Friday. He still had some concerns . The fact was that
almost every resident objected to high night lights .
The applicant didn't even have a light plan. The first
thing he would do if he was bringing this plan before
the commission was understand exactly where the light
standards were going to go because it was a "hot" issue.
People would not like them. He suggested that if the
project was approved, then the fields should be sunken
and if they sunk the fields, the light standards went
down with them. Then there was a chance to do something
about it. They didn't even know if they would be 70 or
85 feet in the air. He didn't know anyone who would
like a force of 12 lights or more out there. Before
taking such a drastic step, he suggested a test by
getting a telescopic boom crane and putting it 75 or 80
feet high with a bank of lights on it. It could be
moved around on the site and they could see the impact.
While there weren't residents living in his project yet,
his project was fully approved and there would be
residents there. It had been his experience as an
architect, planner and developer that the light flare
and glare was objectionable to people from miles around.
In this area in section 4, there were about nine
sections that had no night lights in it and the dark sky
was observed. It would be a shame that these lights
would go in there. He said that this was a big project
that was 700 feet in diameter. He did not know how tall
the outfield fence was, but understood it might be as
high as 24 feet. If the fields were sunken, it would
help that situation, but a 24 foot high fence close to
the street was not an attractive fence. On the issue of
taw
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
the height, Marriott did something about the height in "W
a constructive, creative way. They had tremendous
setbacks and a very attractively designed project and as
a result of going high they were able to give more land,
but the tremendous setbacks mitigated the height. The
j tensile structure by scale was 225 feet by 175 feet.
The developer said it was 40 feet high, but he was told
earlier it was 56 feet and that was four stories high.
That was a fabric structure, not a building with a
balcony, plants or activities, and windows. He wished
he knew more details of the plans; he could be more
constructive then, but with lack of detail the only
thing he could say was that there was a little ways to
p go and hoped the commission
would consider the
additional condition of sinking the fields and investing
a few hundred dollars on a light study which might be
beneficial for everyone before it was too late. He
concluded and thanked the city for inviting him to
review the plan last Friday and felt they had come a
long way, but there was still a ways to go and he would
be pleased to contribute in further discussions .
MRS. DEBBIE BIKE, 57 Birdie Way in Silver Sands Racquet
Club, told the commission that she did not know anything
about this development until she heard two different
radio announcements the past week and both were
different. They called Mr. Diaz and had a nice meeting
with him and did submit their 26 self-addressed
envelopes to avoid any more surprises . She was not
present to speak for or against the project, but she had
!, questions about it. She had not heard anything about
who would be using the facilities; people from Palm
Desert or people from outside Palm Desert. How many
parking spaces would there be for the facility; who
would pay for the maintenance for it; what was the cost
to Palm Desert for the development of it; what was the
remuneration to Palm Desert; what was the guaranteed
remuneration to Palm Desert for this project. She was
a full time resident and was interested in what happens
in her community and felt that before this got to this
stage, the community should be informed. She stated
that she read the Desert Sun, not the Post, and read it
quite thoroughly. When she heard the two radio
announcements she was taken aback by it. While her
association had been informed by letter, unfortunately
most members of the association were gone for the
summer, so they had not been advised about the project.
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
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wow She felt there should be more input from the community
on this and more details made available to them.
Chairman Spiegel informed Mrs . Bike that there were parking
facilities for 320 cars . Commissioner Jonathan noted that
this was planning commission' s fourth time to hear this issue
and city council had heard it a couple of times . There was
standing room only with residents of Palm Desert at the first
couple of meetings and was sorry that she wasn't part of the
earlier process, but all these issues that were brought up
and were addressed in tremendous detail; he did not want her
to get the impression that they weren't addressed. The
issues were narrowed down to four or five remaining ones,
including location.
Mrs . Bike asked if this had ever been published in the
newspaper.
Chairman Spiegel replied yes . Commissioner Jonathan said
there were several stories in the Desert Sun. Commissioner
Beaty noted there was a lot of publicity when it was proposed
at the Hovley site and asked Mr. Diaz if the commission
minutes were available to the public. Mr. Diaz replied yes .
Mrs . Bike said the radio report talked about the
Marriott, Villas and two golf courses, and the other
report just talked about two hotels being put on there
and the first she heard about it was on the radio. She
said she would have to read her newspaper more
carefully.
MS. MARLENE PISOKOFF, a resident of Desert Falls, stated
she was against the project and wanted to address the
Chairperson who was responding to an earlier question
about the possibility of pinball machines going into
this complex and she specifically spoke to Mr. Odekirk
and his reply to the question of whether this was
planned for the community was, "we haven't decided yet. "
She wanted to bring it to the commission' s attention.
Also, she wanted to speak about the impact of a pay for
play facility in the middle of a project being planned
for obvious consumption of people coming to a resort
area for two golf courses, one to be operated by the
Marriott of a private nature, and one that would be
public, two hotels that would be built on the site, and
it sounded counterproductive to her to have a pay for
play facility in the midst of what the city was planning
for a luxury complex in terms of people coming to reside
ftw
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at various homes and timeshares to be built on the
periphery of the site. She heard comments about hiding
it, sinking it and it seemed to her that if something
had to be hidden or sunk, there was a problem--a serious
problem for what was being planned for Palm Desert. If
the commission wanted to maintain an area which were few
in this world for people coming from all over the world
to because it offered a certain ambience, oasis type of
environment, that would be defeated by building a
facility that made people pay to play, served alcoholic
beverages and had a whole lighting problem and traffic
problem that was not in balance with the city' s major
plan and long range plans for the community. She asked
the commission to seriously consider the long term range
of what they were planning to do.
MR. JEFF YAMAGUCHI, General Manager of Marriott Desert
Springs Villas and represented Marriott Ownership
Resorts Incorporated and Marriott Golf. He said a
couple of major questions they had in reference to the
project was the overall putting together of the
tournament course and the resort courses planned by
Hurdson and Cook. Marriott had a significant interest
in participating in the development of the project and
their concern with the sports park was primarily a
matter of fit, whether it had any benefit towards the
impact of what they would consider the "crown jewel" of
Palm Desert golf courses . Having a play for pay
facility in this area would be detrimental to enhancing
that type of image for the city. Obviously there were
some significant values to it, but they did not believe
that such a facility would be incompatible in other
locations. Due to the resort nature and the very high
end type of customer the city was trying to attract to
that area, they would ask the commission to look at
other locations that might be more suitable for this
type of project. If the commission looked at the types
of clients they had at the Villas, which were timeshare
owners, they had approximately 10,000 owners that came
to the desert on a regular basis . Their expansion
growth was expected to be from 212 units to 524 units in
the next seven years . This impacted the city
tremendously in terms of financial revenues and they
felt the people who purchased in this area had a very
strong desire to see the resort community maintained,
which was why they purchased here in the first place.
If they were able to maintain that quality of
environment, they would be able to maintain the revenues
18
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
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coming into the city, which basically was the main
purpose of doing such a development. Not only now, but
long range in the future. They hoped that when the
commission made their decision on this particular
development that they consider the long range usage not
only of the people currently in that area, but for all
the people who come to visit as part of a resort
vacation experience and that the city provide them with
a similar type of vacation environment in the years to
come.
Chairman Spiegel noted that this was not the first planning
commission meeting on the project and asked if the Marriott
had been having any discussions with the planning department
and if there was any particular reason they were not involved
sooner.
Mr. Yamaguchi said they did not know about it and that
was their biggest concern. If they had known about it
they would have addressed it sooner.
MR. RICK HOLDEN, Holden & Johnson Architects, 44-615
Santa Margarita in Palm Desert and offices at 44-267
Monterey Avenue in Palm Desert. He stated that he had
lived here since 1972 and apologized for them that
played softball. He said he did not mean to bring the
community down by doing this or being involved in it.
He felt it was kind of humorous to sit in the audience
and listen to play for pay and alcoholic consumption
because that was what usually happened when he golfed.
He assumed that this golf course wouldn't charge Palm
Desert residents, otherwise it would be a pay for play
facility also and assumed that there would be a club
house or facility that would serve alcohol . He said he
appreciated Mr. Swank' s concern about lighting studies
and apologized for not having details, but as mentioned
earlier, this was about the fourth or fifth site plan
they had done and as yet he had not heard a lot of
objection about the detail because usually when they got
conditions they could work the detail out. The planning
commission was studying the land use and the detail
would be dealt with in conditions much like Mr. Diaz
said with lighting studies, sound studies and whatever
else the commission required. If sinking the project
was a condition, they would, but it would not be sunk
because of being embarrassed with the way it looked.
Details could be worked out and were worked out on any
project that was done--the Marriott setback was a good
%NW
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
example of things that happen. Conditions were placed 'A'
on a project in order to proceed and the conditions were
either met or the project died. He apologized for not
having all the answers but they were not at a point
where they could develop all the answers without knowing
the major overall question and that was commission' s
decision. He said he would answer the questions he
could, but noted that if they had done a lighting study
for the project when it was on the corner, it would
still have to be done over. Conditions were placed so
they could be met.
Commissioner Jonathan asked how high the fence would be and
if it would be bermed.
Mr. Holden replied that they really didn't know because
they had not gotten into grading conditions . There was
a site section shown, and an 800 foot setback with a 24
foot high fence and with the natural slope to the site
that sloped away from Frank Sinatra towards Country
Club. On an average plan the grading plan would dictate
that the low end of the site would become the level at
which the fields would be built. They were assuming
that the back walls facing the conference center would
have retaining walls or be bermed up to some extent, the
degree of which would be determined when there was a
completed grading plan, and there was no sense in doing
that if the site was not acceptable for the project.
Mr. Diaz said that the project could be conditioned that no
more than eight feet of the outside wall of the ballfields
could be visible. They could place the wall and have a berm
up to it. That way there was a berm and would from all
visibility and view appear to be landscaping and an eight
foot wall, which was normal .
Mr. Holden said that with a condition like that it could
be accomplished a number of ways . It could be done with
terraces out front, and they could solve problems once
the conditions were in place. The real problem wasn' t
the height of the light standards or the location of the
fields or how high the fences would be, but whether this
was a compatible use for the site.
MR. EDWARD BIKE, 57 Birdie Way in Palm Desert, stated
that a lot of discussion was about details of the
project. He felt the important factor for the
�I
commission to decide was whether they really wanted this
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
type of project in Palm Desert. It was not going to
help the development around the ballfield, where the
hotels and golf clubs would be and would not help the
appearance of that area. It would only deteriorate.
The previous gentleman joked about being a softball
player; Mr. Bike did not feel they needed a major
project of this kind to play softball . He said that he
played softball and did not have this type of project to
play in and it did not matter. The fact was did the
commission want this project in Palm Desert and if they
did want it, it should be located by Home Base; there
was a lot of property available around Monterey and
Dinah Shore without the residential property located
near it. He felt there were so many factors not
finalized that he did not see how the commission could
vote on it. They could not finalize approval without
all the other factors being known.
Chairman Spiegel stated that they would be voting on the land
use issue. He reiterated that this was the commission' s
fourth or fifth meeting on the project and at some of the
meetings there was standing room only. The questions being
brought up and the concerns were expressed earlier and were
addressed by the developer and by the city' s planning
department. Unfortunately, Mr. Bike was not present for
those. Chairman Spiegel said that he would ask the developer
to address the commission and take a few minutes to review
who was planned to use the facility and the asset the
developer felt the project would be to Palm Desert and the
Coachella Valley. He felt that was important. He said it
would be things that they had already heard.
Mr. Bike said that someone mentioned the possibility of
what would happen to the area and/or project if this
project were not successful.
Chairman Spiegel said that the land would be owned by the
City of Palm Desert and the land would revert to the City of
Palm Desert.
MR. TED SHIAMOTO stated that he wasn't going to address
the commission, but he was the owner of the 420 acres
presented by Mr. Swank. He was a resident of PGA West
and also had a home in Costa Mesa. The reason the last
four years he had been involved in this project was
because he had been visiting the Coachella Valley the
last 15 years and four years ago he had not heard about
the proposed plan. If the commission was in his shoes,
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
and if he knew this project was going to be there he did rrr
would not have spent millions of dollars on the land.
He was not a developer and did not know some of the
technical issues, but the reason he bought the land was
that it was a central point of Palm Desert and he
believed a continuance of his property to the Marriott
would provide an exclusive golf resort. He said that he
was a golf player and liked to play here. He liked
coming here to enjoy the clean air and sky. If he
wanted to see the lights he could go to Anaheim Stadium.
He said that he bought that land and had millions of
dollars invested. He worked with the city and
cooperated on many things and did many things for the
city and his developer, Swank & Company. He knew a lot
of details had to be worked out and the commission had
to vote, but they should look at the project from his
shoes. He felt the city was intelligent to do long term
planning and he wanted to believe the city would
continue to do that. He had a good investment in Palm
Desert and had a future project and plan.
Commissioner Jonathan noted that when the commission last met
there were objections raised by Mr. Swank and others to the
location on the corner and it was the commission' s desire
that there be a meeting and that the involved people work out
something that was agreeable. As a result of that meeting
the location had been revised. He asked if Mr. Shiamoto
reached satisfaction with the revised location.
Mr. Shiamoto stated that he wanted the commission to
understand that he had 420 acres and continued to
establish a long term relationship with the city. He
did not feel that the sports park belonged there, but if
everyone else wanted it there, he would cooperate with
j the city. He felt that not enough detail was given. He
was at a high point in Palm Desert and the view looked
down on Palm Desert and he did not feel this was a good
location for the sports park.
Commissioner Jonathan said that understanding that ideally
this project would be placed somewhere north of I-10, if it
were to be located at the present location, what would make
it tolerable for Mr. Shiamoto; what was the single most
objection that he had. If it was 800 feet south of Frank
Sinatra, what was the primary objection to Mr. Shiamoto.
Mr. Shiamoto said he was not objecting to the specific
location; he did not feel there had been enough time or
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
wow details given to understand what the project would look
like. As a land owner, he was sorry he was not present
at the last meeting because he was out of the country,
but was not given adequate time.
MR. BUZZ RADOLPH, General Manager of the Lakes Country
Club, stated that he received notification of the
meeting at their office. He said it was difficult for
them as an association to make a determination when the
project was not directly across the street from them as
the commercial property was . Whether or not they were
for or against this project, he felt the people present
from the Lakes were here as individuals and were
objecting to it as individuals . He said it was
difficult for them to speak for everyone, but he was
also present as an individual who was raising children
in Palm Desert; he had an eight and ten year old and
lived at Primrose and had a substantial investment in
the community. He and his wife were active in the
community and wanted what was best for the community.
The question he had as it related to the location of the
project, whether in fact there was a substantial effort
made to find an area that was not going to be adjacent
to a Marriott project, golf courses, a conference
center, hotels, and did not think they would find that
type of development near the railroad tracks . He was
not saying they should go on the north side of I-10, but
he did not feel as an investor, like Mr. Shiamoto
decided to do, that he would invest in 400 acres
fronting on the railroad tracks to build a high scale
development. He wondered if the selection of this
location was correct. He did not object to the possible
usage of a facility like this, but did not understand
why the developers, as long as they could get their
facility (and he himself used to be a ball player) he
wouldn't care if he played next to the railroad tracks
or in an area that was premium property in Palm Desert.
When he moved here 13 years ago he felt they were out in
the "boonies" and when he opened the Palm Desert
Resorter he did not know how they would get people out
here. This community was growing and there were large
investments being made that commission was aware of and
the types of developments going in; they heard from the
Marriott and Mr. Shiamoto. He hoped the commission
could find another location. He was personally not
against the facility, but was against the location. He
felt an area should be found that would not impact
people who were trying to improve and put in high scale,
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
high tax revenue paying developments . He did not '
understand why the developer would have any cause as
long as they got it in the city of Palm Desert if it was
in another area that wouldn't affect investments such as
the Marriott was making, the hotels and Mr. Shiamoto.
Ms . Pisokoff noted that an objection was made that there
had been hearings before and it was delinquent on the
part of residents not to have shown up and complained at
that time; that seemed to evade the issue that the
location of the site changed in that interim period.
Chairman Spiegel asked the developer for rebuttal .
Mr. Richard Odekirk stated that Palm Desert Greens was
1500 feet from their facility to the first house in that
country club. From their seating areas, they were 800
feet from the corner of Frank Sinatra which was where
their contact would be made between the bats and balls
II! and the sound from the spectators . From them to Mr.
Swank' s first house was 1300 feet, which included the
street width and a setback on Mr. Swank's property. Mr.
Swank would also have landscaping and a wall . To the
south, Mr. Yamaguchi raised a concern for his
timeshares; where the timeshares were scheduled at this
time was 1500 feet from them. Desert Falls was over one
mile away; the Lakes was close to a mile and a half
away. Mr. Yamaguchi stated that they just found out
about the project; he went to a study session a month
ago that Mr. Yamaguchi and Mr. Rubin attended and they
proposed their entire section 4 plan to city council .
Mr. Odekirk said he met him that day and invited Mr.
Yamaguchi and Mr. Rubin to meet with them, but Mr.
Yamaguchi never took them up on that offer. He did not
just find out about it. He stated that he hired a sound
specialist and Mr. Hymes went out to DeMuthe Park in
Palm Springs where there was a softball tournament going
on and he took sound readings with two games going on
simultaneously. He had a written report and submitted
it to commission. Mr. Hymes was present to answer any
questions the commission might have on his findings .
Regarding the gang element, it was brought to his
attention that this facility would be a hangout; he said
that this facility would be first for the adults, but he
pledged to make it available to many youth league
events . He would be good on his pledge. The playoff
allstar regional games would be something that he would
be proud to host in his facility. He wanted to make
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SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
WNW this the Williamsport of the west for Little League
baseball . He did not intend to have nightly Little
League games, but would like to have all the games that
lead up to the Little League World Series from the west
coast. In doing that, the beer taps would be turned off
at Little League events and they wouldn't serve beer on
those nights and they would have to patrol their
facility because they were striving for a family
atmosphere and would patrol their facility similar to
how Camelot patrolled the facility in Cathedral City.
They had an armed policeman at the door and if anyone
tried to get in with their hat turned around or a Raider
jacket on, they didn't get in. Their facility would be
kept to those type of standards because they were going
after the finest quality in recreation. Their facility
didn't work if they didn't do that kind of quality job.
In terms of publicity, they had been in the Desert Sun
constantly and were on three television shows after they
got approved for this location by the city council last
time, including a front page story by the Desert Sun.
They were also in the L.A. Times last week.
MR. RONALD ODEKIRK stated that Rick had taken great
pains to hire the best planners; his concept was unique
"' and this would be a wonderful park. They felt people
would be proud to see the facility. It would not be an
eyesore, but a beautiful park compatible with the golf
course. Not everyone played golf, but they would be
proud of what they saw. It would be the premiere sports
park in the country and they would be proud to present
this for the residents use and would free up the fields
for the youth programs to function properly. He felt a
lot of the concerns raised were not real concerns and
this facility would be something they could be proud of.
Chairman Spiegel closed the public hearing and asked for
commission comments .
Mr. Diaz said for clarification purposes that in terms of how
this use got to commission, this was brought to commission
with a recommendation from the Economic Development Advisory
Committee which addressed one question--was this facility
just for the citizens of Palm Desert and the immediate area
or were they trying to bring in people from the outside. The
answer was yes, they were trying to bring in people from the
outside because the issue was to attempt to bring in other
types of tourism activities that did not relate to golf and
tennis . The pay for play had been addressed and was more or
ow
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
less the type of activity. What the Economic Development '
Advisory Committee was attempting to do in looking at this
project was to try to bring in other activities into this
area so that there was a more balanced economy in terms of
tourism. The facility as designed, and unfortunately the
model was not present, but the applicant indicated that they
were talking about fields designed to look like major league
fields . They were talking about Yankee Stadium, Dodger
Stadium and Fenway Park. As far as the lighting and studies
being requested, if they went back to the phase 3 of the
civic center park and the baseball fields, what the city did
there was condition it and then got the lighting studies .
The same thing was being done here; the criteria was being
established and set up and then they would tell the lighting
engineer to do the plan to meet a particular standard. As
far as video games, the development could be conditioned that
no video games would be allowed. That could solve that
problem. As far as the fences went, they could require no
more than eight feet of the exterior fence be visible from
the street and that criteria would have to be met when the
applicant went to the architectural commission. As far as
the Marriott development was concerned, he felt it was
interesting because at the old city hall by E1 Paseo when the
Marriott came in he knew exactly what went on. They had two
models, one that showed the Marriott spread out over the
acreage and one that showed the Marriott coming in and going
up. As far as the tensile structure was concerned, all the
height modifications, while the council was allowed to modify
the height, all the height modifications were based on the
Marriott concept--for every foot in that was how far they
could go up; so if the Marriott was acceptable, then the
tensile structure would be acceptable, otherwise it wouldn't
be built. It would have to meet the same distance
requirements from Portola inside that the Marriott had; they
were not talking about seven stories high, but in terms of
height and distance from the street, that would have to be
done. In terms of the timeshares and he understood Mr.
Yamaguchi ' s concerns on that, the bottom line was that if
locating the timeshares in section 4 was a problem because
of this development, then Marriott could make the economic
decision of not place the timeshare there. That was their
decision to make and ultimately the council could make that
decision in terms of agreements for section 4 . What was
before the commission now was whether this particular
development as conditioned could be approved to go in there.
In terms of development in Palm Desert, he felt it had been
conditioned and as said before, they were looking in terms of
building this development to attract people outside of Palm
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
Desert. Would it be a hangout and would bad people be there?
They went through this every other Wednesday with the Parks
and Recreation Commission and there was one truism that
remained true for 20 years: in terms of any development it
had to be made available to the families and good people so
that the bad people would stay away. For the park here they
had heard the same thing, either they surrender themselves to
the dark side or gang activity or build the facility and
control it and do what it took to get it done. He couldn't
guarantee that there wouldn't be a bad element hanging around
there, but he could guarantee that if they didn't do
something about it that everyone would be behind locked
doors . He felt the conditions and additional studies being
required could meet the concerns that had been raised.
Commissioner Beaty noted they were all frustrated and it was
unfortunate that there were new people in the audience that
had not seen all the detail and the work that had gone into
it and the discussion that had gone on regarding every issue
raised tonight. He did not think he had heard anything new
that they had not already discussed. He was convinced that
this would be a class project that they could be proud of and
though the word Disney had not been used tonight, it had been
used a lot previously. They kept hearing the "not in my back
yard" concept no matter where they tried to put it and Home
Base probably wouldn't want it in their back yard either. He
did not feel they were talking about a back yard concept;
this project was not being proposed for any back yard except
for a golf course at the present time and was sure that the
land planners and architects could deal with those issues.
The issue of the retirement community and no one wanting
lights or activities for kids came up in Palm Desert; this
city had a tremendous population of service people and young
professionals that would use the facilities in addition to
elsewhere in the valley and all over the United States .
Knowing the reputation of the developer and architect, with
the standards that the city/community development department
would impose in the conditions to make sure they were carried
out would ensure a development that he would be proud to move
for approval on at the appropriate time.
Commissioner Cox said that one thing they heard today were
concerns that had come up many times before. Everything that
had transpired before, all the issues that came up were
pretty much covered by the conditional use. She stated that
when the commission approved a conditional use, if they
didn't meet the criteria that they were allowed to run that
facility by, that facility would be shut down. They had
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SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
addressed the alcohol, gangs, and lighting, although it might
not be to everyone' s satisfaction yet because they couldn't
get that far, and discussed berming. They had put conditions
on their use and that was the commission' s job. She
understood that some of the audience members might not have
heard all the discussion, but she wanted them to understand
that all the conditions were before them and had been
addressed. She noted that on the western side of Portola,
all that open land from that area to Frank Sinatra was zoned
commercial . It was not like putting a pay for play in the
t club. If and when this was approved,
middle of a country PP
there were other things planned in that area. They were
there earlier than this project. Again, she felt that they
had done as much homework as they could right now and hoped
the audience felt that the commission was strong enough and
knowledgeable enough to put conditions on their use and would
enforce those conditions if the project was approved.
Commissioner Jonathan noted there was an objection to video
games and that young people would congregate and play video
games . He stated that if those kids weren't playing video
games they might be out spray painting peoples homes . It was
not so bad if the youth of the community were given something
to do. Speaking of the community, it was not just the golfer
who spent two months a year here. As pointed out by
Commissioner Beaty, Palm Desert was a growing community, a
growing city and was increasingly varied. There was not just
one end of an element and the other. There was everything in
between now too. There was mid management, service, young
families, older families, grandparents, grandkids, babies,
everything. With a growing city, there should be parks here
and there and with parks there would be lights . The question
was how to mitigate the problems those kinds of development
produced. He felt they were struggling with those
developments and the city had done a good job so far. He
stated that nothing Palm Desert did was second class .
Nothing out of Holden & Johnson' s office was second class .
Some of the fears expressed the commission had heard for many
weeks now were valid, but there were solutions to the
problems . In Mr. Swank' s letter there were proposed
solutions to mitigate the problems . They would incorporate
into the conditions of approval just about every one of those
mitigations . When looking at the city saying that the
project was a good idea but it needed to go somewhere else,
they heard that from people at Chaparral and Portola Country
Club when the proposal was on Hovley. They looked around and
there were not that many places that could accommodate this
project. There were problems with wind anywhere north of the
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present location. They couldn't have wind and softball--they
did not go together. It was not a capricious decision to
locate this project here. The choices were narrower than
some might think; given the alternatives and the overall
needs of the community and the quality of the proposed
project, it was highly appropriate and was time they approved
it. He felt that certain conditions would be appropriate and
when the motion was made he hoped those conditions would be
incorporated into the motion. 1) Alcoholic beverages needed
to specifically be limited to beer and wine as discussed
earlier. 2) The hours of operation as a compromise and as a
mitigation should be limited to 10 :00 p.m. for the lighting
and was more compatible with the community than 11 :00 p.m.
3) Limiting the fence to a visibility of eight feet made
sense and he liked the way it was phrased because it left it
open to design accommodations that would facilitate that.
Commissioner Beaty asked eight feet above what; Commissioner
Jonathan answered just the visibility of the fence itself--
they could berm up to it, sink it, and do whatever was
necessary so that no more than eight feet of fence was
visible. Finally, they were approving a conditional use
permit but he was a bit uncomfortable that they were not
seeing the details of the project--that was understandable
because it had not been designed because they first placed
` ow the conditions and then the design was enabled. After the
architectural review committee gave approval, he wanted to
see it to make sure there was no problem with the detailed
design.
Commissioner Whitlock asked if Commissioner Jonathan was
happy with the visibility of the light standards with the
visibility of the fence at eight feet and if he was
comfortable with the trees screening the light standards.
Commissioner Jonathan stated that he was not sure they needed
the trees; they had a lot of conditions already that had to
do with the lighting and limiting the ambient light so that
it didn't create more light--he felt those conditions were
adequate and did not think planting a high palm tree would do
much of anything. He did not feel a need for that as a
condition of approval. Commissioner Whitlock noted that it
was part of the report that there was a request for
appropriate trees to hide the light standards and she thought
that was a condition that was mentioned that would be added.
Mr. Diaz said that was correct. Commissioner Whitlock felt
that with this particular location, what they were there for
after everything they had heard over the past few months,
that this was a compatible use for the site and would approve
it.
* .
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Chairman Spiegel stated that he had a few comments . 1) If
approved tonight, this was a conditional use permit and there
would be certain conditions tied to the conditional use
permit and they might not cover all the problems that might
develop if it was approved and the city went ahead and the
developer went forward and it was built. That did not mean
it couldn't come back to the commission at any time; if
problems developed and they were not being handled properly,
the planning commission had an open door and they met the
first and third Tuesdays every month and anyone was welcome
to make any comments they might wish to make after the
commission went through their regular agenda. 2) He did not
feel that all softball players were bad; he did not think all
golfers were bad or all tennis players were bad and there
might be some bad tennis players and bad golfers and bad
softball players, but that went with the territory. He felt
creating a facility like this for the city of Palm Desert and
was primarily for the residents of Palm Desert to use and
they would be using the facility, which would be an asset to
the city. He noted that it had been stated that beer and
wine would be the only alcoholic product sold in the park.
Talking about traffic, with the traffic at the Marriott in
addition to two more hotels in the area, they wouldn't notice
the traffic from the softball pay for play park to any degree
that would be seen with the hotels coming to the area. 3) A '
lot of them would like to see Palm Desert stay the way it is,
and it is nice, but unfortunately it was not the way the
world worked. There couldn't be status quo, whether in
business or as a city. They had to grow or decline. He was
sure when the Town Center was built there were a lot of
people who didn't want it in Palm Desert, but he happened to
come here because of the Town Center and was the first
manager of May Company and was thankful now for the Town
Center because Palm Desert didn't have problems with the tax
base and had surplus of money because of development like the
Town Center and the Marriott. The city would continue to
grow. The desert wouldn't stay desert. It would be great,
but didn't work that way. If everyone felt this type of
project would be an asset to any city in the valley and they
reviewed the project; he asked that those people that were so
opposed to the project to better find out exactly what the
project entailed. He was sure that could be done working
with the planning department and might be something that they
could be proud of. He thought that the people in Indian
Wells were probably proud of the tennis complex they
developed and as stated, they were only to vote on the land
use and the condition of the land use and not on the
financial arrangements . That would be done by city council .
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He felt that if everyone would review the project, they would
find it was an asset rather than a liability to the
neighborhood and the neighborhood would grow.
Commissioner Cox asked Mr. Diaz if when the lighting plan was
developed if it would come back to the commission; Mr. Diaz
replied no, it would just have to meet the conditions placed.
He said that there had been several conditions added at this
hearing and one concern he had when they do that, although he
attempted to make sure as he wrote the conditions that they
were what the commission wanted. He asked the commission to
instruct staff to prepare a resolution approving the
conditional use permit with the conditions added and he would
specify them. If the commission wanted, the lighting plan
could come back to the commission to demonstrate that it did
meet the requirements outlined. They would have that
resolution before them at the next meeting with the
conditions re-written to reflect exactly what had been done.
That would expand the appeal and/or call-up period for 15
days from the date the resolution was adopted, but
considering the sensitivity of the project, he felt that was
appropriate. He said that the lighting could be included if
they wished to see it. Commissioner Cox said that the reason
she asked that was because she had been wavering back and
forth on whether she felt the playing fields should be sunken
or if they should be left at normal grade. She felt a lot of
that might depend on what they heard from the lighting study
and did not know if that should be part of the consideration
or made a condition. Mr. Diaz stated that there was a
lighting standard: the lighting would not increase the
ambient light level on the street--lowering the fields did
not necessarily mean that the light standards would be
lowered. They could lower the fields, but the poles would be
70-75 feet high and there was no way to lower the fields that
much, but what ended up happening was if the fields were
lowered, the poles ended up being in the same place, but if
the field was lowered 20 feet there would be a 50 foot pole.
He felt that having the lighting plan come back for final
approval to insure that it did meet the condition set forth
they could do; they would do that anyway similar to what was
done with the civic center ballfields . They would have the
lighting plan drawn up and they could bring it back as an
informational item.
Commissioner Beaty asked for clarification regarding the five
or six conditions . Mr. Diaz stated that there was a
condition on the alcoholic beverages to be beer and wine
only. He wanted direction on the hours of operation: 10:00
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SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
p.m. or 11 : 00 p.m. ; the fence visibility --that eight feet
should be visibility from the street or the exterior;
detailed project fields to scale and that should have been in
there--that they identify the fields as major league fields
and currently the three identified were Yankee Stadium,
Dodger Stadium and Fenway Park; the applicant could change
them, he just wanted to insure that the quality was there and
that would come back to the commission. Also the conditions
on the lighting study that was brought out that they would
use a professional lighting engineer. That was what they
would require anyway, but should be in the resolution.
Mr. Folkers stated that public works department had some
conditions to add also: one was for the retention of
stormwaters for a 100 year storm event; the other was that
they wanted to review the entrance for acceleration and
deceleration lanes at the project entrance.
Commissioner Jonathan also asked that the detailed elevation
and landscaping plans come back to the commission. Mr. Diaz
said that they could come back as an information item and it
would be done in such a way that it would come back to them,
although they would not have the right to over-ride the
architectural commission approval; in effect, it would be
within the 15 days so the commission could appeal it to the
city council . He said that condition would be included.
Chairman Spiegel stated that the discussion should be
continued because one thing they needed to decide on was
hours of operation.
Commissioner Beaty felt that the hours of operation were
critical to the developer. They had heard a lot of
discussion on that before and if they were placing the
conditions as stated on the lighting for the facility, he was
not sure there would be a significant difference between
10 :00 p.m. and 11 : 00 p.m. If there was, it was not being
lighted properly. He preferred that the commission withhold
a restriction like that unless there was a problem identified
by the lighting study. Commissioner Jonathan stated that his
concern was that effective lighting, state of the art today
meant that there was no spillage. The example cited was the
park at the civic center and six feet away from the field
someone wouldn't be able to read a newspaper, but the concern
was for the developer to the north. When someone was looking
out from their porch at the stars or the mountains they would
still see a globe of light as opposed to the dark sky. He
felt there was validity to that issue. It was a mitigation
fto
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and 10 : 00 p.m. was the same time the driving range lights
went out was a good time when everyone could say it went
r Beat indicated that the driving range,
dark. Commissioner y g 9
high school and the Cook Street facility was the reason that
people upset, but that was not what they were talking
P were so P
about. He asked if there was a way to tie this at such a
time when there were neighbors to the north. He heard that
the plans were in ready, but was probably contingent upon
sales . At such time as it was offensive or there was an
issue, it was still a conditional use permit and could be
addressed at that time. Chairman Spiegel clarified that
Commissioner Beaty was saying that the park would be in
operation long before homes were developed to the north. Mr.
Diaz replied that it depended upon who was asked; everyone
was ready to break ground except for the financing. He said
that one of the concerns he had with that type of condition
was that the issue with the hours of operation was an
economic one and the concern he had was that if they didn't
address that now and said to wait for the people to the north
to come in, they wouldn't use as a defense that the lights
were there, why did they buy there and that kind of thing.
He also agreed with Commissioner Beaty that if they worked
these things out, lighting should not be a problem, but as
Commissioner Jonathan indicated, while lights might not be
seen and the glare might not be there, there was still an
impact on the dark sky. He felt that from his standpoint, he
would rather have the condition placed in there now. He
never wanted to use as a defense that they knew it was there
because one thing they indicated throughout the hearing was
that it was not going to be a problem, but it was an economic
one. It appeared to be an economic issue and maybe it was
something that could be worked out. If they only stayed open
until 10:00 p.m. instead of 11:00 p.m. , that meant a
percentage had to go down somewhere or more charged somewhere
else. He said it could be worked out and what he had been
emphasizing over and over was the fact that they were not
there to discuss the economic issue, but the land use issue.
On the one hand if they said that the lighting thing was an
economic issue, either they could discuss all the economic
issues or they couldn't. He said that if 10 : 00 p.m. was the
condition, the applicant could always appeal that condition
to the city council . He stated that he had no problem with
11 : 00 p.m. and was recommending 11 : 00 p.m.
i
i
Commissioner Cox asked Mr. Odekirk how long it took to play
a game; Mr. Odekirk replied one hour. Commissioner Cox said
that would mean they would lose three games; Mr. Odekirk
stated that was correct. Commissioner Jonathan felt the
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commission had always had faith in a developer' s ability to .ram
work out economical issues on their own and continued to have
that faith. He did not feel that was their concern; if
something was right from their standpoint, it was right.
From his standpoint 10 :00 p.m. for lights out for the city of
Palm Desert made a lot of sense and he would like to feel
that the city went dark after that time. Mr. Diaz said they
could always come back later on when people lived up there
and ask for an increase. Chairman Spiegel asked if they .
could vote on the issue with the amendments and leave that
amendment off and then vote on it separately. Mr. Diaz said
yes, but to vote on the hours of operation separately so that
when he prepared the resolution he would know what to put in
there. Chairman Spiegel stated that he would entertain a
motion without the hours and that would be a separate motion.
Commissioner Beaty asked if the developer or architect had a
problem with any other conditions mentioned. Chairman
Spiegel stated that there wasn't time for them to do that and
the discussion was closed. Commissioner Beaty said he was
just curious and got his answer. He said that he would move
with those conditions as enumerated by Mr. Diaz with the
exception of the lighting, which they would vote on
subsequently. Chairman Spiegel said for the record that
those conditions were beer and wine only, an eight foot wall,
major league fields, conditions on the lighting study, and
that the detailed plans come back to the planning commission,
in addition to the 15 day staging and ones mentioned earlier.
Action:
Moved by Commissioner Beaty, seconded by Commissioner Cox,
approving the conditions as delineated by minute motion.
Carried 5-0.
Moved by Commissioner Jonathan, seconded by Commissioner
Whitlock for purposes of discussion, changing the closing
time from 11:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. with the site cleared of
customers by 10 : 30 p.m. by minute motion.
Commissioner Whitlock stated that she had a real problem with
this for two reasons : initially she was the one who put the
time restriction on it when it was on Hovley to protect the
residents of Portola Country Club. She realized that there
weren't any residents at this location as yet, but they
would. It was not going to be vacant land forever. She
wanted to f igure out a way to allow the developer to have the
hours of operations that he was requesting now, and then for
it to be reviewed at a time when they had the construction
with Mr. Swank' s project. She wanted to be able to protect
%No
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SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
those residents if they needed protecting when the time came,
but right now they didn't have anyone out there.
Commissioner Beaty strongly agreed, but felt the mechanism
was in place--if it was offensive or a problem those people
being offended could come back to the commission and if it
was truly offensive the people would show up and it could be
changed. He could not support the motion. He did not feel
it was going to be offensive, that was why he felt that way.
Chairman Spiegel passed out the study done on the sound level
and looking at it quickly, the study indicated that based on
the location of the proposed fields, the sound would not be
a problem in the area. Again, a conditional use if there was
a problem it would come back. As far as the light level was
concerned, he agreed that the proposed light level should
take care of it but if it didn't, it would come back to the
commission and the hours could be changed. The developer had
indicated that without that additional hour, he was not going
to make money on his project and that did not mean that hour
had to stay in there, but they should find out if it was a
problem. They didn't tell the Marriott to close down at
10 : 00 p.m. and they weren't going to tell the hotels going up
adjacent to the fields to close at 10 : 00 p.m. He was also
sure that they weren't going to tell the clubhouses that
would have dances and parties to close at 10 : 00 p.m. so they
needed to see if there was a problem. Commissioner Jonathan
stated that they regularly told applicants what they could
have for hours of operation, i .e. restaurants and whether
they could sell lunch or dinner or both. He was not
concerned about the sound because he felt that moving cars
would drown out the sound of a ball hitting a bat, but was
concerned about the light. If they took the approach that if
there was a problem the people would come to them, then why
set hours at all--11 :00 p.m. was arbitrary. If a time was
going to be set, they should set a time that was reasonable
and in his judgement if they were going to set a limit, 10 : 00
p.m. was what made sense for this community. They could try
and retain that aspect of the city and 10 : 00 p.m. made sense.
Commissioner Whitlock asked what time the lights went off
around the area: i .e. the civic center park, the college, and
the driving range. Mr. Folkers answered 9 : 00 p.m. at the
driving range; at the College of the Desert for their games
and Palm Desert High School for their games depended when the
games were over. In the civic center park the majority of
lights were off at 10:00 p.m. Commissioner Cox stated that
she felt this was part of the conditional use and unless they
got complaints which was part of the process, they could come
back to the commission and tell them if there was a problem,
then they would address it.
ubw
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SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
I
Mr. Diaz suggested placing 11:00 p.m. in the conditions and
that the applicant was cautioned that at such time as
residents may move into the area, they would know that this
condition may be subject to review, and from staff ' s
standpoint that they not use as a defense that they knew it
when they moved in, and wouldn't "fly" if it was a problem.
Action:
Chairman Spiegel noted that there was a motion on the table
and asked for the vote. Motion died on a 1-4 vote.
Mr. Diaz stated that the next motion would be to instruct
staff to prepare a resolution approving with the conditions
as added and as discussed, as well as the conditions that
were in the memo from the public works department. That
would before the commission for adoption at the next meeting
with the 11 : 00 p.m. closing time and the stipulation that it
would be reviewed later on.
Action:
Moved by Commissioner Beaty, seconded by Commissioner
Whitlock, instructing staff to prepare a resolution with the
conditions as amended for adoption at the October 5, 1993
meeting. Carried 5-0.
rrr
IX. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS
MR. RONALD OLIPHANT addressed the commission and stated that
he had an item that was not on the agenda. Mr. Diaz
indicated that this item was going to be under staff ' s
request to get a motion for a determination of use. He asked
the commission to, with a four fifths vote, allow the
commission to make a determination of use in the industrial
zone for a hand car wash project. He said that a four fifths
vote was necessary for the commission to discuss it.
Action:
Moved by Commissioner Beaty, seconded by Commissioner
Whitlock, adding the item to the agenda by minute motion.
Carried 5-0.
{ Mr. Diaz explained that what they had was the type of car
` wash where a person drove their car in and washed it
themselves, similar to the Texaco Station. He said that the
applicant wanted it in the industrial zone. Mr. Diaz felt
that was better than the commercial zone facing Highway 111 .
a
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SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
This was an industrial use. Mr. Oliphant said that it would
be located behind Hovley Tires.
Commissioner Jonathan asked if Mr. Diaz wanted to discuss a
specific application. Mr. Diaz stated that it wasn't a
specific application, but the use. Should this type of use
be permitted in the industrial zone. The city allowed it in
the commercial zone and had it off Highway 111. Commissioner
Beaty said that he would move approval; he knew the area and
did not see a problem. Commissioner Jonathan stated that he
was not prepared to discuss it. If Mr. Diaz was saying in
general, as a matter of course, that the industrial zoning
permit a car wash. Mr. Diaz replied that it would be for
this type of car wash, not a big car wash. Commissioner
Jonathan said that he was not prepared to discuss it, it was
something that he would want to see. He was not opposed, but
was not prepared to discuss it.
Chairman Spiegel asked what other car washes had to come
before the commission. Mr. Diaz replied a Harv's or an All
American. Commissioner Jonathan asked if they came into the
city under a conditional use permit. Mr. Diaz clarified that
they came in under a precise plan. Commissioner Jonathan
indicated that meant they were not a prevented use. Mr. Diaz
felt that because it was a drive in car wash, as long as it
was not visible from the street it would be acceptable.
Mr. Oliphant informed commission that there were no
mechanical devices proposed. It was only a coin operated
high pressure hose and vacuum unit on the outside. It was
not listed on the approved uses, but was in the gray area.
Commissioner Jonathan said that they had one of those a
couple meetings ago and it was not that simple; he was not
saying no, but wanted to look at. He indicated that he had
a "pet peeve" about these issues coming up like this and
commission only having a few seconds to say yes or no. It
had nothing to do with the applicant or the application.
Chairman Spiegel asked if Commissioner Jonathan had a
specific problem with it; Commissioner Jonathan said no, but
did not want to say yes or no until he had a chance to
consider it. Commissioner Beaty asked if Mr. Diaz was
talking about changing the use in general, or only on this
specific location. Mr. Diaz stated that if someone else
wanted one somewhere, it would be a use that was permitted.
If commission wanted, they could say it was a use permitted
and required by a precise plan; that would mean they would
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
have to go through the public hearing process . What staff '
was trying to do here was an attempt to avoid bureaucracy and
get a decision. They could say that the use was allowed in
the zone subject to a precise plan, but if the commission
said no, he couldn't even go through a public hearing.
Action:
Commissioner Beaty said he would so move for approval,
because he knew the location. Motion died for lack of a
second.
Chairman Spiegel said that Mr. Diaz spoke to him earlier
about this so he knew it was being added to the agenda. He
asked if there was a reason for the rush. Mr. Oliphant said
the location was vacant at this time and it was an idea he
had and rather than entertaining a lease to someone on a long
term basis, he wanted to try out this coin operated car wash,
because there were a lot of automotive related businesses in
the area that could use the facility.
Chairman Spiegel asked if waiting two weeks was too long of
a delay for Mr. Oliphant to get started on his project. Mr.
Oliphant replied no, he just wanted to know if they needed to
go into a conditional use process or anything of that nature.
Chairman Spiegel agreed that if a two week delay wasn't a rr
problem, it should be put on the next agenda. Chairman
Spiegel didn't feel a motion was needed because it would be
coming back to them in two weeks . Chairman Spiegel suggested
that it be the first item on the agenda so this gentleman
wouldn't have to sit through the whole meeting like tonight.
Mr. Oliphant asked if any other exhibits would be needed
or further information.
Chairman Spiegel ie el said that would be up to the planning
g
department. Commissioner Jonathan indicated that what the
commission was asked was if that type of use was a listed use
within the industrial zoning; that was a different question
than asking if a car wash was appropriate in that location.
He did not think there would be a problem with a car wash in
that location; that was not the question put to the
commission. The question put to the commission involved
industrial zoning, which was in various parts of the city.
Mr. Diaz said that he would put the question to the
commission differently in two weeks . Commissioner Beaty
asked if there was a chance that the applicant wouldn't have
to do a specific site for permit; Mr. Diaz said there would
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PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
low be an interpretation of the ordinance and asked Mr. Oliphant
to give him a call before the next meeting.
X. COMMENTS
1 . Commissioner Beaty commented that the lights at Cook
Street, the driving range, and at the high school were
off. He said that the city paid for the Cook Street
lights, which were the kids ' baseball fields . The
school district paid for the football lights and the
college paid for the driving range. He did not know if
the money would be available or what it would cost to go
back and retrofit those lights . He felt they were
offensive from everywhere in the city. Chairman Spiegel
said that the city was going to retrofit the driving
range lights . Mr. Diaz concurred and said that the
condition was that the ambient light level be lowered;
they would retrofit the football lights at the college
and the baseball lights . He said the baseball lights
were the ones really causing the problem. The ones at
Cook Street were put in early, but that could be taken
care of. Once the driving range lights were taken care
of and cost estimates were received, then they could
look at the high school . Commissioner Beaty said that
he would like to see a ballpark estimate on what it
would cost to retrofit all the lights . Mr. Diaz stated
that a lot of the problem was a matter of shielding them
and he could get those figures .
2 . Commissioner Beaty stated that he wanted to go on record
that the high school facility was a disaster and a group
he was part of had saved the football field sod that was
donated and almost killed by school district personnel
because they did not have the right type of sprinkler
heads for the field. He said there was a growing surge
in the community that recognized that the state and
school district did not have any money and he got a call
from a gentleman who was interested in organizing the
landscapers and he had been in contact with the golf
course superintendents and he would like to include the
city. They had people from all over Southern California
and this valley that visited that field regularly for
athletic events and it should be a "jewel" . Right now
it wasn't. Mr. Diaz felt that what had to be remembered
was that it was used virtually 12-14 hours per day all
year long. He would work on it.
*or
39
MINUTES
PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION
SEPTEMBER 21, 1993
XI . ADJOURNMENT two
Moved by Commissioner Cox, seconded by Chairman Spiegel,
adjourning the meeting by minute motion. Carrie '-0 . The
meeting was adjourned at 9 :40 p.m.
RAMON A. DIAZ, Sec&Cary
ATTEST:
-- l
ROBE T A. SPIEG , an
Palm Desert Plannin Commission
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