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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1020 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING TUESDAY - OCTOBER 20, 1998 7:00 P.M. - CIVIC CENTER COUNCIL CHAMBER 73-510 FRED WARING DRIVE 1. CALL TO ORDER Chairperson Campbell called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE Commissioner Jonathan led in the pledge of allegiance. III. ROLL CALL Members Present: Sonia Campbell, Chairperson Paul Beaty George Fernandez Cindy Finerty Sabby Jonathan Members Absent: None Staff Present: Steve Smith, Planning Manager Bob-Hargreaves, City-Aftorney Mark Gre6nwood, `fran'sportation- Engineer Tonya Monroe, Administrative Secretary IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Consideration of the October 6, 1998 meeting minutes. Action: It was moved by Commissioner Finerty, seconded by Commissioner Beaty, approviDg:the October 6, 1998 minutes as submitted. Motion carried 5-0. V. SUMMARY OF COUNCIL ACTION Mr. Smith summarized pertinent October 8, 1998 City Council actions. rr MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 VI. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS None. VII. CONSENT CALENDAR A. Case No. PMW 98-12 - THE OASIS, LLC, Applicant Request for approval of a parcel map waiver to adjust lot lines and increase setbacks between buildings within Tract No. 23322. B. Case No. PMW 98-13 - THE OASIS, LLC, Applicant Request for approval of a parcel map waiver to adjust lot lines and increase rear yards within Lot 23, Tract 23322-5. Action: It was moved by Commissioner Finerty, seconded by Commissioner Fernandez, approving the Consent Calendar by minute motion. Motion carried 5-0. Vill. PUBLIC HEARINGS Anyone who challenges any hearing matter in court may be limited to raising only those issues he/she or someone else raised at the public hearing described herein, or in written correspondence delivered to the Planning Commission at, or prior to, the public hearing. A. Continued Case No. PP/CUP 98-16 - AMERICAN INVESTMENT GROUP/PALM DESERT LLC, Applicant Request for approval of a precise plan of design, parking modification and exception to the height limit for the remodel of building architecture, parking lot, landscape area and new Rite Aid building at Palms to Pines Plaza East, the area between Highway 111 and El Paseo, east of Plaza Way and west of 2 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Columbia Center, more particularly described as APN 640-170- 005, 006 and 008. Mr. Smith explained that this item was continued from the meeting of October 6, 1998 at the request of the applicant. Mr. Smith indicated that the site plan, elevations and proposed remodel plans were on display. He noted that this was one of the older commercial centers in the city and is 89,518 square feet on 6.93 acres with 385 parking spaces. The current proposal is to remodel the center and to add a new access point from Highway 1 1 1 at the midpoint of the property, as well as the building elevations as shown on the colored renderings. The proposal received preliminary approval from the Architectural Review Commission. Mr. Smith indicated that the applicant would be removing the three westerly buildings and constructing a new building for a Rite Aid Pharmacy. The net result would be a reduction in the size of the center down to 85,476 square feet. With the changes to the access and landscaping in the parking lot, the parking spaces would be reduced from 385 parking spaces to 359 spaces. The parking ratio would be reduced from 4.3 spaces per 1,000 square feet to 4.2 spaces per 1,000 square feet. At the ... southeast corner the applicant was proposing a second new building to make the back of the building look less like the back of a building. Mr. Smith indicated that elimination of this 3,000 square foot retail building would bring the parking ratio back up to 4.3 spaces per 1 ,000 square feet. He noted that it was very difficult to conduct a parking survey because the center is not overly successful and staff was reluctant to reduce the parking from 4.3 to 4.2 at this time. Staff recommended that the 3,000 square foot building not be included in the approval of the project at this time. In the future when staff has a better understanding of the parking demand they could reassess it. Mr. Smith informed Commission that he had a discussion with the Rite Aid representative who expressed concerns with the proposed hours of operation and the representative was present to address those concerns. Mr. Smith also noted that the condition on hours of operation being proposed were the same as the Walgreen's project and were proposed to be 6:00 a.m. to 12:00 midnight with a drive-through pharmacy open 24 hours and the applicant would be addressing that issue. Mr. Smith indicated that the findings for approval were located on pages four and five of the staff report and for purposes of CEQA this project is a Class 2 categorical exemption and no further documentation was necessary. He asked if there were any questions. 3 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Commissioner Jonathan asked for clarification on the height exceptions being requested and the number and location of the 50 foot towers. Mr. Smith explained that there were three towers being proposed: one at the east end, one at the west end and one in the middle. He pointed them out on the displayed plan. He also indicated that the one in the middle would be slightly below 50 feet. The tower height required City Council approval. Commissioner Jonathan indicated that staff was recommending a parking ratio of 4.3 parking spaces per 1 ,000 square feet which equaled a 20% exception and asked what led staff to conclude that 4.3 would be adequate. Mr. Smith indicated that centers developed in the past were developed under different regimes (i.e., under the County in this case) and the proposed remodel would reduce the amount of leasable square footage. Also, the Palm Desert Town Center parking ratio is 4.3 spaces per 1 ,000 square feet. Commissioner Jonathan asked if the center is successful (and everyone hoped it would be ) if it would be fair to conclude that there would be a modest parking squeeze and if staff felt the available spaces would suffice. Mr. Smith explained that with the aesthetic improvements and reduction in building square footage, staff felt that warranted accepting the 4.3 parking ratio. Chairperson Campbell noted that these buildings would not be the size of the mall, which had many small shops and attracted a greater number of shoppers than would these fewer, larger shops. She felt that addressed the adequacy of the proposed parking and that the 4.2 ratio would be adequate. Mr. Smith agreed they might conclude that big box stores might generate fewer employees than a series of smaller shops. Commissioner Beaty informed Commission that he lived in that neighborhood quite a few years ago, but even when the center was occupied with the discount store and other shops the parking lot was never full and they had adequate parking at that time. Chairperson Campbell indicated that in the Columbia Center with the addition of Smokey's Restaurant the parking is full in the evenings. Chairperson Campbell opened the public hearing and asked if the applicant wished to address the commission. MR. ALEC GLASSER, Managing Partner of American Investment Group, addressed the Commission. He hoped the Commission liked the aesthetics of the proposed project and indicated that the architect, Mr. No MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Frank Urrutia, was present to answer any architectural questions the Commission might have. Mr. Glasser felt that the proposal would be a dramatic improvement to the property. He stated that he had two issues he wished to discuss with the Commission: parking and store hours. Regarding the parking, he explained that they were actually reducing the gross leasable area by 8,000 square feet, after including the 3,000 square foot building. The reason why there was a slight reduction in the parking ratio was because of the increased landscaping and loss of land as a result of the curb cut being required by Caltrans on Highway 111 . The increase in landscaping and curb cut was why he felt the 4.2 ratio was justified. He noted that this was a very expensive project. With the 8,000 square foot reduction, he asked that Commission consider approving the 3,000 square foot building now. He felt that the property did not need a large parking requirement and that the 4.2 ratio would be more than adequate to serve it. He requested that Commission delete condition number 10, which eliminated the 3,000 square foot building and required a parking ratio of 4.3. He noted that it was also an economic issue. Regarding store �.► hours, the Rite Aid representative would address the Commission. He felt they should be allowed to be open 24 hours and that the community would tell them whether they prefer store hours greater than 12:00 midnight. He requested approval of a 24-hour operation and they could let the citizens of the community dictate whether they should be open 24 hours. He indicated that Mr. Doug Cook from Rite Aid would address the Commission. Commissioner Jonathan noted that Mr. Glasser indicated an 8,000 square foot reduction and the staff report said there was only 4,042 square feet. He asked why there was a discrepancy. Mr. Glasser explained how he arrived at an 8,000 square foot reduction. Mr. Smith stated that the numbers that he used were taken directly off of the plans. Mr. Glasser said that they counted the 7,000 square feet above the old bank building which is currently the two-story furniture store on the west end and that might not have been included on the plan figure. 5 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION a OCTOBER 20, 1998 Commissioner Jonathan asked if that second floor was being used. Mr. Glasser said that it wasn't being used currently, but whether the figure was 4,000 or 8,000, there was actually a reduction. He felt that the loss of the Highway 111 area and the increased landscaping justified the 4.2 parking ratio. Commissioner Jonathan said that the bottom line was the same. It would be an expensive project and appeared like a very nice project but he was concerned about including the 3,000 square foot building. He asked if Mr. Glasser had tenants for the 3,000 square foot building. Mr. Glasser said that no papers were actually signed, but they planned some type of office in the rear. Commissioner Jonathan asked if they were looking at retail and perhaps office use. Mr. Glasser concurred. Commissioner Jonathan indicated that with regard to the parking situation, they were trying to justify the 4.2 ratio as being adequate versus the 4.3. He asked why they shouldn't be held to the 5.5, which is what was required in the ordinance. Mr. Glasser felt there were several reasons. The nature of the users for the center, the big box users, didn't generate the type of traffic that smaller shops would generate. As an example, the end building to the west is 14,400 square feet. If they had 1 ,200 or 1 ,500 square foot shops there they would have eight to ten tenants. They would only have one. The next building over, the old Thrifty building, is 23,000 square feet with one tenant. The next building over, the old Safeway building, is divided between Staples and Big 5 Sporting Goods so there were two tenants in about 35,000 square feet. Then they would have one tenant at 17,000 square feet. It wasn't the kind of property that would have lots of small shop tenants that would generate a lot of traffic. Secondly, if they had to have a 5.5 ratio on this site, it would kill the project. It could never justify it. 6 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Commissioner Jonathan said he could understand that, but he had some familiarity with the retail industry and was not aware that there is an industry axiom that says less customers for larger retail store as opposed to the number of customer per square feet of a smaller store. He understood that the industry was revenue per square foot driven, and he was not familiar with any industry axiom that says there are less shoppers per square foot in a larger store. He asked if he was missing something there. Mr. Glasser said he couldn't quote any industry studies, but it has been his experience that the larger number of shop tenants, small shops, the larger requirement for parking. That has been his personal experience. Chairperson Campbell asked if all of those buildings were leased besides the 3,000 square foot site. Mr. Glasser stated that they have leased the easterly building and Rite Aid would be in the westerly building and has a continuing lease obligation for another three years in the current building. Chairperson Campbell asked about the restaurant building on the south side. Mr. Glasser said that business was being sold so it was in the process of being transferred from one owner to another. Chairperson Campbell noted there was also a beauty shop in the back. Mr. Glasser said that building was approximately 6,500 square feet and only about 800 square feet were vacant and they have an interested party for that space. Chairperson Campbell asked if the Tai restaurant was still open. Mr. Glasser said it was part of the same ownership with San Tropez. The Italian restaurant moved over to the end space and now the balance of San Tropez and the old Tai restaurant was purchased by a new owner. MR. DOUG COOK, with Rite Aid Corporation, 41877 Enterprise Circle North in Temecula, stated that Mr. Glasser mentioned the hours of 7 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 operation issue and he felt it was pretty unlikely that they would need that store to be open 24 hours because the customers would drive that decision, but as a national corporation they have certain goals and they want to have the ability to be open 24 hours if that need ever arises and in international marketing programs they do announce that they have 24 hour stores available and people can dial a 1-800 number for the nearest location in case there is an emergency in the middle of the night. He really didn't expect this store to be open 24 hours based on this type of community, but it would be good for the community to have that option if they do want it to have a pharmacist available throughout the day. He indicated that as a practical matter, Mr. Smith pointed out that they did have the right to have a pharmacist selling prescriptions through the drive-through, but as a practical economic reality it wasn't financially feasible unless they have the store open for front end sales for someone to come in and get an ice cream cone or a bottle of shampoo. They did have their store manager talk to Mr. Don Stage, the property manager for the condominium project directly behind the store, and probably the property most effected by any headlights shining in anyone's eyes. Mr. Stage didn't think there would be any problem there. He said this type of use wasn't like a fast food hamburger stand with kids screaming through the parking lot in their cars and blaring their music really loud. It was the everyday person stopping to pick up something they forgot or didn't have time to pick up. It was a low intensive use and they would like to have that option available to them. He thought they would have a beautiful new store for this community and they would like it open 24 hours if possible. He asked for any questions. Commissioner Fernandez asked what the hours of operation were for the new Rite Aid at the corner of Cook and Country Club. Mr. Cook said he didn't know for sure, but thought the hours were from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. Commissioner Fernandez noted that he was there on a Sunday at 7:00 a.m. and it was closed. Mr. Cook said the hours depended upon community desire. If there were a lot of people there at 9:00 p.m. then they would try to stay 8 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 ftw open until 10:00 p.m. They would do that for a couple of months and if people were still coming in they would stay open a little bit later, but it was all community driven. He indicated that the exterior on this store would be much nicer and the new stores were so much nicer and prettier. He said they also have a new store on 42nd and Washington and felt it would be a nice addition to the community. Commissioner Jonathan commented that they wouldn't be having this amiable discussion if that wasn't the case. Mr. Cook said that was the case of the national corporation having their national image built and they were able to get one done in spite of their efforts locally to say they couldn't do that down here, but somehow they got it done and that was something he had to overcome at each meeting. Chairperson Campbell asked if the condominium project they referred to when they spoke to Mr. Stage was the Sandpiper community. Mr. Cook said it was his store manager who spoke with him. He just received an e-mail that his store manager talked with Mr. Stage and it was the condo project directly behind the new store. Commissioner Jonathan stated that he shopped at that store and it was very nice inside and questioned why corporate wouldn't want to spend more money to dress it up on the outside given what they put on the inside. He didn't understand that and suggested that perhaps Mr. Cook could take that comment back to headquarters. Mr. Cook felt that locally they have driven that point home and said they wouldn't start out with their battleship gray any more. They have the southwest theme store and he believed they had another application coming in for another store down here and it would be equally beautiful. Chairperson Campbell asked if anyone wished to speak in FAVOR or OPPOSITION to the proposal. There was no one and the public hearing was closed. Chairperson Campbell asked for Commission comments. "Do 9 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 .ri Commissioner Beaty stated that he would not be in favor of the 24 hours and said that they could always come back and request that at a future date if the community desired it, but he didn't think that would be the case and felt the hours specified were more than adequate. An emergency in the middle of the night should be taken by a pharmacist on duty as was described. He was also in favor of staff's recommendation to hold off on the 3,000 square foot building to allow them to see what happens with the parking. They could always come back in the future and request that the 3,000 square foot building be added. Commissioner Jonathan agreed with regard to the hours. He hoped that they could take care of buying ice cream and shampoo between 6:00 a.m. and 12:00 midnight or wait a few hours. If there was a need in the future, they could revisit the issue. He had also been persuaded this evening to fall into agreement with the staff recommendation with regard to the parking, although his starting point was the 5.5 ratio, but he thought it would be difficult for this center to "pencil out" at the 5.5. He felt the 4.3 was a reasonable compromise under the circumstances and in light of staff's comments with regards to why that exception is appropriate. Commissioner Fernandez stated that he was also in favor of the project in agreement with the staff recommendation to eliminate the 3,000 square foot building for now. If the Town Center had a parking ratio of 4.3, he saw no reason this project shouldn't also have 4.3. Commissioner Finerty concurred with the 4.3 ratio and supported the other commissioners with regard to not having the store open 24 hours. Additionally, she would be opposed to eliminating the access on Plaza Way because it might negatively impact Chevron. Chairperson Campbell stated that she was in favor of the project and felt that the same conditions should apply to Rite Aid that applied to Walgreens as far as hours were concerned, also for location of public/coin telephones, and everything should apply the same as Walgreens. She felt that Mr. Glasser explained it well with regard to big box stores versus smaller shops and she felt that smaller shops do bring in more shoppers. As far as condition number 10, she would be in favor of allowing the 3,000 square foot building to be built at this time and have it built all at once instead of coming back and going through more expense for the developer to come back and add that building 10 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 tr later. She has been in business on El Paseo for 12 years and has never seen any parking problem there. She would be in favor of allowing the 3,000 square foot building now and all conditions that apply to Walgreens should apply to Rite Aid. Chairperson Campbell asked for a motion. Commissioner Finerty stated that she would make a motion to approve the parking ratio of 4.3 per 1 ,000, the pharmacy window be open 24 hours with the store open from 6:00 a.m. to midnight, and Plaza Way access staying where it is. Commissioner Jonathan asked if that meant that condition number 10 would remain as specified. Commissioner Finerty concurred. Commissioner Jonathan stated that he would second that motion. Action: It was moved by Commissioner Finerty, seconded by Commissioner Jonathan, approving the findings as presented by staff. Motion carried 4-1 (Chairperson Campbell voted no). It was moved by Commissioner Finerty, seconded by Commissioner Jonathan, adopting Planning Commission Resolution No. 1899, approving PP/CUP 98-16, subject to conditions as amended. Motion carried 4-1 (Chairperson Campbell voted no). B. Case No. TPM 29018 - CENTURY-CROWELL COMMUNITIES, Applicant Request for approval of a tentative parcel map to re-subdivide two parcels into three. Properties are located within the Sunterrace development on the south side of Sarazen Way, starting 195 feet west of Hogan Drive. Mr. Smith noted that plans were on display and were also included in commission packets. He apologized for the legal notice sent. He said it didn't afford them a great opportunity to outline the history of a certain piece of property. They had a situation here where on the original tract map they had three lots created. In 1996 through Parcel Map Waiver 96-23, they merged those three lots into two. At this time they were asking to undo that lot line ,.,. adjustment and go back to the original three lots that were approved in the 11 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 f aj original tentative map. The three lots would each have 95 feet of frontage which is consistent with the neighborhood. Under the parcel map waiver they would have had an additional 47% feet of frontage on each of those two lots. Effectively that was what the commission was being asked to approve. The findings of approval were on page two of the staff report. This lot split was a Class 15 categorical exemption for the purposes of CEQA and no further documentation was necessary. Staff recommended approval of the return to the original mapping subject to conditions. He asked for any questions. Commissioner Finerty noted that Mr. Smith mentioned that the 95 feet of frontage on the three lots would be consistent with the other homes in the area. Mr. Smith said that was correct. Commissioner Finerty indicated that the letters the commission received in opposition to this proposal were saying something else. She asked what the size of the lots were. Mr. Smith said it was his understanding that all were in the range of 95 feet to 100 feet. Commissioner Beaty asked for the range of lot sizes and the average lot size. Mr. Smith noted that the legal notice showed the two lots and they should have included the lot to the west because the map was based on the original subdivision (the zoning map). It was not precise but it would give them a very good approximation of the lot sizes in the area. What the commission received in their packets was a reduction and he had the original he could pass around. He had marked in the third lot. Commissioner Beaty said that looking at the legal notice it appeared that they were switching back from two to three. Mr. Smith thought it looked like they were taking two lots and creating three. Commissioner Beaty said that it looked like the three lots would be of similar size to all the other lots in the development except for the corner pie-shaped lots. Mr. Smith concurred. Chairperson Campbell opened the public hearing and asked the applicant to address the commission. MR. ED KNIGHT, Century Crowell Communities, said he would like to elaborate a little more on the history of this parcel. Mr. Houston, the co-applicant, came to Century Crowell and offered to sell a half lot that he purchased back in 1996. Mr. Houston was presently selling his home and no longer needed the half lot adjacent to his property. They owned the lot and a half and this parcel map would restore the property to its original configuration that was originally recorded. He said he had 12 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 a map that showed that the average size is 95 feet on the frontage. He felt the opposition was not fully aware of the circumstances regarding the fact that this was just taking the lots back to their original configuration and that they weren't taking two 95 foot lots and splitting them into three. They were just restoring them to their original configuration and then they could hopefully develop them. He asked for any questions. Commissioner Finerty asked what the current square footage of the homes were right now. Mr. Knight said the minimum was 2,500 square feet and they range up to about 3,400 square feet. Commissioner Finerty asked what the square footage would be for the proposed three lots. Mr. Knight said they would be in that range of 2,500-3,400 square feet. tow Commissioner Finerty asked if the lots could accommodate a 3,400 square foot home. Mr. Knight concurred and noted that there was an existing home on Mr. Houston's lot. Chairperson Campbell asked when this was approved under the County if a lot of the people who had purchased lots there were aware that it was the original size of the lots. Mr. Knight said he couldn't speak for them because Century Crowell wasn't the original builder/developer of this project. They came in about a year to a year and a half ago and picked up this project that was faltering and they were doing everything in their best power to make it a successful project. Commissioner Jonathan asked for the average lot size. Mr. Knight said about 9,000 square feet. ... 13 f MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 f end Commissioner Jonathan asked if each of these lots would be 10,925 square feet. Mr. Knight (and Mr. Soneji in the audience) concurred. Commissioner Fernandez asked if there was a homeowner's association. Mr. Knight said yes. Commissioner Fernandez asked if this had been discussed with them. Mr. Knight said they were fully aware of it and he had a conversation with Dave Domnik, the President. Mr. Knight informed commission that he was the Vice President of the Board of the homeowner's association. He said they have no objection to the proposal. (Someone in the audience disagreed with that statement). Mr. Knight clarified that the association didn't have a problem, although an individual might. Chairperson Campbell asked if anyone wished to speak in FAVOR or OPPOSITION to the proposal. MR. NORM THYE, a homeowner on the corner of Nelson Lane and Harrison, stated that he has been a part time resident there for two years. Fortunately or unfortunately the people surrounding his home did not get a copy of the legal notice. He was the only one in the whole eight to 10 homes in that corner who received the legal notice. Consequently, they had no real time to put their notes together to decide what's good or what's bad. He had a brief conversation with his neighbors tonight and he said he was representing six of them. They were opposed to this change. The primary reason they were opposed to it was that if they broke the barrier here and took two lots to make three, what was to stop them from making five out of every four lots. He said there had been a certain downgrading in this development over the past two years and they as homeowners object to any further downgrading and if they started making the lots smaller that was downgrading. Chairperson Campbell asked if there were a lot of empty lots in the development. 14 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Mr. Thye said yes. Chairperson Campbell asked Mr. Thye for the size of his lot. Mr. Thye said he has a 3,500 square foot house on his lot and it was ample. He didn't know the exact dimension of the lot. Commissioner Beaty asked for clarification on which lot Mr. Thye lives on. Mr. Thye said on the corner of Nelson Lane and Harrison. As far as the homeowners association was concerned, he didn't have much faith in them because they just left a house that was supposed to be facing north and south that they put in east and west and the association did nothing about it. What he would like, and he said he was only speaking for a few people until he could get this thing straightened out, was a delay on the decision until a few more people had a chance to get involved. MR. JOE SONEJI, the Civic Engineer for the project, said that he has been the engineer on this project since 1991 . The three lots that originally recorded in the city of Palm Desert as a tract map and they had been like that until 1996. Less than two years ago they decided to merge the three lots into two and they were going back right now to the original three lots which would be consistent with every lot out there--the same size and same square footage, so this was not devaluating anyone's property or size of the lots. Chairperson Campbell asked if the applicant wished to readdress the commission. Mr. Knight said he had no further comments. Chairperson Campbell closed the public hearing and asked for commission comments. Commissioner Finerty said it seemed to her from the letters that were received in opposition that other people did receive a notice. Two people on Sarazen, one on Vardon, and one on Harrison responded. She said she would assume that notices were sent out to property owners within 300 feet. Mr. Smith said 15 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 that was correct and indicated he had a copy of the 300 foot notice that was used. It also indicated that all the lots across the street are 95 feet and every lot that he could see on it had 95 feet of frontage. Commissioner Finerty said she would tend to move for approval mainly because the average size of the lot was 9,000 square feet and by combining the two lots into three they would end up with 10,925 square foot lots. That sounded like more of an upgrade than a downgrade. Commissioner Jonathan said they agreed procedurally when there is an application that requires notice within a planned unit development they would provide the homeowner's association board with notice as well. He asked if Mr. Smith knew if that was done in this case. Mr. Smith said it was in that Sunterrace at Palm Desert showed up numerous times as did Mr. Robert Varner, who is also still involved in the project. He also indicated that.the applicant was noticed. Additionally, Mr. Smith said he talked with Mr. Domnik last week. Commissioner Jonathan said he was sensitive to Mr. Thye's remarks particularly with regards to the possibility of a trend and downgrading in general of the quality of the development. However, with the application before the commission he didn't feel that was the case. He thought it was a unique situation where they were just going back to the original design and they were not degrading the size of the lots or the frontage. He would be very sensitive to any future applications if that were to be the case, but they have no indication of that so he was in agreement with Commissioner Finerty. Commissioner Beaty stated that he had no problem with the request and it sounded like there was some confusion. He thought he originally might be in favor of a delay to allow for some review, but he felt that once the information was available to the residents they would see that there is no problem here and if that wasn't the case, a challenge could certainly be issued at the Council level. He would be in favor of approval and would so move. Action: It was moved by Commissioner Beaty, seconded by Commissioner Fernandez, approving the findings as presented by staff. Motion carried 5-0. It was moved by Commissioner Finerty, seconded by Commissioner Fernandez, adopting Planning Commission Resolution No. 1900 approving TPM 29018, subject to conditions. Motion carried 5-0. 16 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 `.. C. Case No. HDPP 98-2 - EDDIE BABAI, Applicant Request for approval of a hillside development plan to allow grading of the site and construction of a single family home on five acres within the Hillside Planned Residential zone known as 47-075 Southcliff Road, APN 628-120-002. Mr. Smith explained that the plans were on display and passed out photographs. He visited the site one day last week and took some pictures and thought they might be helpful. He said the request was to develop on an existing five acre site a large single family home located at the westerly end of Southcliff Road. Access to Southcliff was from the CVWD access road south of Thrush. He indicated that the project description was twofold. One was to allow the applicant to complete the grading activity which he had begun and then to approve the 5,600 square foot single story dwelling unit on this graded pad. He said that the existing five acre lot has another existing graded pad with a dwelling located on it. That house with trees and landscaping was located north of the proposed pad. As shown in the i.. photographs, there had been considerable grading activity there that was done without permit or approval. The hillside ordinance allowed for a graded pad of up to 10,000 square feet. If the application before the commission this evening were successful, then the applicant would have to remove the existing dwelling unit and re-naturalize the area, the driveway and pad areas so that they are left with one home up there and one graded pad of 10,000 square feet. He indicated that Architectural Review at its meeting of September 22, 1998, granted preliminary approval to the plans that were distributed to Planning Commission. He passed out a copy of the color palette that was shown to Architectural Review at that time. Mr. Smith said staff discussed this matter at length with ARC in that they did not agree that the color scheme would blend in with the hillside. Copies of the minutes were included in the commission packets. He said the goal of the ordinance is to allow limited development in the hillside. He noted that at one time there was a referendum on hillside development as well as a variety of other issues in the hillside. More recent hillside development included the Olinger residence located a couple of hundred yards southerly of this property. That home showed up on the hillside in a lighter tan color above the Community Church. That was done in 1987-88. It was a 1 ,830 square foot home plus a 520-530 square foot garage on that pad. In this instance the Planning Commission was being �... requested to approve a 5,600 square foot dwelling on a 10,000 square foot 17 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 pad. Staff did not believe it was the intent of the ordinance that they would be building monuments on the hillside. If they were looking at a 10,000 square foot lot on the flat land, it would have a 30%-35% coverage limit, or be 3,000 or 3,500 square feet. In this instance what they were looking at was in excess of 50% coverage on the pad. Secondly, staff was concerned that the color palette would not blend in with the hillside. In that area staff disagreed with the action by the Architectural Review Commission. Staff felt this dwelling needed to be reduced in size, have its color scheme revised to better blend in with the hillside and reposition the smaller home further to the south on the pad so that it would be less prominent. Staff's recommendation was that Planning Commission take public testimony and continue this matter to a date certain and direct the applicant to revise the proposal to not exceed 3,000 square feet and to revise the colors and the site plan to make the project better blend in with the hillside. He asked for any questions. Commissioner Finerty asked if the Olinger home Mr. Smith referred to was the last home that was built on the hillside. Mr. Smith said yes, for this area of the hillside. There have been others down in the area of the tennis courts further to the north which while they were technically in the hillside, they were not as high up in the hillside. Commissioner Finerty asked if this would be comparable with where this home is proposed. Mr. Smith said yes, with the Olinger residence. It was a couple of hundred yards to the south and if they were standing at a point on Highway 74 they would be able to see both residences. Chairperson Campbell opened the public hearing and asked the applicant to address the commission. MR. SEAN ABAII, the Principal of S.A.B.A. Architects, informed commission that he was the architect for this project. He said that before the Commission was a rendering that would show how the house would look, which was also presented at the Architectural Review Commission meeting. He said he reviewed the staff report and wanted to go over some of the items that Mr. Smith mentioned to perhaps shed more light on some of the issues. The staff report indicated that the applicant chose to maximize the pad size and place a 5,600 square foot house on that pad. They hired a civil engineer before they started to do this project and the plans before Commission indicated that the pad is actually 9,900 square feet, so it was below 18 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 vim 10,000 square feet and they were not maximizing the pad. He showed the rendering to Commission and explained that when they submitted to the Architectural Review Board it took about five or ten minutes for the Commission to review and look at the project. They all had high praises about the project and most of them said that this is the type of project they would like to see on the hillside and these were the colors they would like to see on a hillside, rather than just a white or very light colors. They all agreed that these colors, which are also earth tone colors, do blend in with the mountain. He explained that they conducted a lot of computer analyses and took samples of the granite actually up there and did color matching to see what they could do to make it blend even better. That was how they came up with the proposed colors, but the colors were not important. He said they were there to please the City, to make sure they have a project that would blend in with the colors of the mountain. If the City has suggestions, or if Mr. Smith has suggestions about changing the colors, they would willingly listen. He had no problem with that. He pointed out a statement that was a quotation from the Palm Desert Zoning Ordinance, two which he thoroughly read and which was mentioned by Mr. Smith, that said that a typical home on a 10,000 square foot lot, and the key word was "lot" in the flat land would be between 3,000 to 3,500 square feet, which was a 35% lot coverage. He agreed that was absolutely correct, but asked the Commission to remember that his client has a five-acre lot, not a 10,000 square foot lot. The pad they are proposing on the five-acre lot is approximately 10,000 square feet. If they were to use the zoning ordinance figure of 35% coverage, they would have a house size of 1 .62 acres. They have a pad of 10,000 square feet on a five-acre lot. He also mentioned that the Architectural Review Commission was pleased and had high praises for the house. They said this was the kind of home they would like to see up there on the mountain and not something white, not something simple, and not something that would not blend with anything. Chairperson Campbell asked for clarification that Mr. Abaii wouldn't mind changing the color of the house. Mr. Abaii said he wouldn't mind as long as the color wasn't white, which wouldn't blend in. He said they took a piece of granite and actually did the computer analysis to get the earth tone colors that 19 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 j would blend in, but he had no problem with working with the City to come up with a desirable color. Chairperson Campbell asked if anyone wished to speak in FAVOR or OPPOSITION to this project. There was none. Chairperson Campbell closed the public hearing and asked for commission comments. Commissioner Finerty noted that she was new to the Commission and this was her first hillside development case so she diligently read through the ordinance trying to find out how many square feet a home could be and found that the ordinance was silent on the square footage, as well as the height of the building. She was concerned about the reference to the Olinger home being built 12 years ago and it was noted that although it is 1 ,830 square feet, which is significantly smaller than the home before them tonight, that it was quite prominent and this home was constructed 12 years ago. She was also concerned that whatever they decided tonight would set a precedent and wondered if it would be a good idea to go back and review our hillside ordinance and find out what it is that they really want in the hills, what size of homes (if any) and to fine tune the ordinance because it didn't tell her or guide her as far as making a decision this evening. She would rather have a home built by a plan on what they really want than accidentally because the policy hadn't been properly set. Commissioner Jonathan thought that revisiting the hillside ordinance was not a bad idea but felt it would be inappropriate to postpone a decision regarding this matter based on a review of the ordinance. Furthermore, if the ordinance were to be reviewed and changed, it would be even more inappropriate to apply new and changed standards to an application that is before them at this time. His interpretation of the present ordinance is that the basic objective is to be as least intrusive on the hillside, particularly as it is viewed below, as possible. He believed that the size of the house had to be considered, not in isolation, but in recognition that it is on a five-acre lot and not on a 10,000 square foot lot. He didn't have any kind of a problem with the size of the home. They certainly had homes much larger throughout the desert, including on five acre lots in Rancho Mirage. He didn't have a problem with that size of a home on five acres. He loved the colors, but not for the hillside. He thought that some kind of compromise was going to be necessary there and suggested that if they moved forward with everything else that they allow the applicant and staff to work out an acceptable color scheme and only in the event that 20 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 wow any disagreement couldn't be resolved between the applicant and staff directly, that the matter come back to the Planning Commission. Commissioner Beaty said he was in favor of a continuance. There was a very clear statement in the ordinance which states that architectural design and materials to the greatest practical extent blend in with the natural terrain. He didn't see either the architecture or the colors or materials blending here at all. He was interpreting the project as an attempt to build a monument as Mr. Smith referred to where they would have something that stands out and everyone would say "wow, look at that". That clearly was not the intent of the ordinance. He believed the intent was to give the individual an opportunity to live on the hillside and enjoy the hillside and views, but not impose the view of their location on those on the flat land. Commissioner Fernandez concurred with Commissioner Jonathan and Dr. Beaty regarding the colors. He felt this was a great project and that the house was beautiful and would really look nice, but it was his opinion that the applicant should get together with the City and work out the colors. He would +... be in favor of the project and would like a continuance until both parties could decide on the colors. Chairperson Campbell stated that she was also glad that Mr. Abaii brought out the fact that the definition was for 10,000 square foot lots in the flat land and not five acres, which she wasn't aware of. This is a five-acre piece of property and as far as the design of the home was concerned, she thought it was very nice. Also, compared to some of the homes up there it was quite a step up. She also looked at the property today and the height at that location and as far as the landscaping was concerned that Architectural Review brought up, it would be nicely landscaped and would camouflage a lot of building. As far as the colors were concerned, there were a lot of shadows up in the mountains with dark and light colors and they don't want a white or beige home up there. She thought they could go ahead and work out something as far as the colors were concerned. She asked for a motion. Commissioner Jonathan noted that it sounded like a few of the commissioners wanted this to come back before them because there were enough changes they were asking for that they want to see it before it's approved and he could live with that. It also sounded like most of them didn't have an objection to the size of the home or the basic architecture. The area of discussion for most 21 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 of them was really on the color palette so if the Commission was so inclined he would be prepared to move for a continuance of the matter to a date certain which they could address with the applicant, but limit the issue to the color palette. He indicated if that was acceptable to the Commission perhaps they could move in that direction. Chairperson Campbell agreed that the discussion should be on the color palette. Mr. Smith stated that part of staff's concern was with the location of the home on the pad. He asked if the Commission wished staff to pursue that or if they accepted the driveway and garage in its current location on the plot plan. Commissioner Jonathan stated that he didn't have a problem with it. Commissioner Fernandez also said he didn't have a problem with it. Commissioner Jonathan asked Mr. Abaii how much time he would need in order to address the color palette with staff with the hopeful objective of coming back to the Commission with something that both staff and the applicant could agree on. Mr. Abaii said he would leave that up to Mr. Smith. They were open and would be available any time next week. Mr. Smith noted that he would be on vacation next week and they would have to work with Mr. Drell, but he felt it was something that could be handled in one meeting and suggested a continuance to November 3, 1998. Mr. Abaii stated that November 3 would be fine. Commissioner Jonathan noted that they always had the ability of a further continuance if for some reason it wasn't resolved. Commissioner Jonathan stated that the motion was to continue the matter to November 3 with discussion being limited to the color palette. Commissioner Finerty said that she concurred with Commissioner Beaty with regard to the potential monument and she would not want to limit the discussion just to the colors. Commissioner Jonathan said the motion still stood and wanted to see if there was any consensus. Mr. Abaii said that if the Commission looked at the plan, they did a lot of studies which were also reflected by site delineation or site drawing which he believed was on the next page. They knew that they didn't want to design a house that was a block that would be intrusive or obtrusive that would look like a big mass. Their first attempt was flatly 22 -i MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 refused by the Architectural Review Commission and he showed that design to the Planning Commission. He noted that the original design was for a two-story house and they took Architectural Review Commission's notes and comments and went back to the computer and came up with a house that was stealth in design which has a lot of curves to it. He explained that curves don't hit you like a solid tall wall of concrete or block. When designing a project, in order to soften a project an architect uses a lot of curves and also by placing the house on that location of the site was one of the key elements of making it not to be so obtrusive or stick out too far. They took advantage of the 10,000 square foot limitation they had and put the house all the way to the far back of it. If the city ordinance allowed them to go to a 20,000 square foot pad, they would be more than happy to push the house even further back which would allow them to have more landscaping development. They worked with the 10,000 square feet allowed and designed a house that was curvilinear and stealthy. Commissioner Beaty asked if the findings required demolition of the existing .. structure and naturalization of the terrain. Mr. Smith noted that the Commission didn't have a resolution of approval in the packet. When the resolution came before them, staff would put in a condition requiring that. Chairperson Campbell asked if the applicant would have a satellite dish at the new home like at the existing home. Mr. Babai indicated that it would be moved. Mr. Abaii said they could replace it with a much smaller one. Commissioner Beaty noted that they really make some small ones now. Chairperson Campbell concurred. Commissioner Finerty asked if staff, during the two-week continuance, could do a survey of the other homes in the hills to determine the average and largest square footage. Mr. Smith said he had a discussion last week with the gentleman of the lot adjacent to the east, a Mr. Cree, and Mr. Smith had expected him to be at this meeting. Mr. Smith asked Mr. Cree that question and Mr. Cree said they were between 800 and 1 ,000 square feet. Commissioner Beaty noted that those were the homestead shacks. Mr. Smith indicated that they were the homestead dwellings and Commissioner Beaty felt that some of them are shacks. Commissioner Jonathan felt it would be more 23 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 telling, in response to Commissioner Finerty's comment, to look at the most recent additions, particularly just north of Bighorn around Cougar Trail and that area. Some of those homes are very large and very expensive. Mr. Smith said that area was in the County. Commissioner Jonathan noted very few people think of Cahuilla Hills as not being part of Palm Desert and that was something that could be addressed if and when they looked at the hillside ordinance. Commissioner Beaty said he would second the motion. Action: It was moved by Commissioner Jonathan, seconded by Commissioner Beaty, to continue HDPP 98-2 to November 3, 1998 directing staff to meet with the applicant to resolve color palette concerns. Motion carried 4-1 (Commissioner Finerty voted no). Chairperson Campbell requested that staff also prepare a resolution of approval for adoption at that meeting. Mr. Smith said it would be prepared consistent with the Planning Commission's direction and they would attempt to clarify the color issue. Chairperson Campbell clarified for the applicant that the only unresolved issue that was being continued was the color palette. ..� D. Case No. CUP 91-8 Amendment - SOUTHWEST COMMUNITY CHURCH, Applicant Request for approval of a one-year time extension to a conditional use permit to allow the temporary use of a five-acre parcel west of the existing facility to locate a 6,400 square foot classroom building and a 280-space parking lot at 73-251 Hovley Lane West. Mr. Smith explained that the request was for a one year time extension of the temporary use permit at Southwest Community Church. As the staff report indicated, the Commission approved the use of this five-acre parcel for a parking lot and a 6,400 square foot temporary classroom in March of 1997. The church had plans to move to a new facility and there was a condition placed on that approval for the removal of the temporary classroom building effective September 30. As well, the resolution established numerous operational conditions to improve the compatibility of the facility with the residential neighborhood to the west. Ground breaking for the new church did wo 24 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 r.. not occur until August of 1998 at their new location at Washington and Fred Waring. Staff was given to understand that occupancy was to begin in June of 1999 and would be completed by September. The applicant was requesting a time extension of one year on the removal of the temporary building. Yesterday communications were received from the residents in the area, five separate ones that essentially read the same. On page two of those letters the residents asked that: one, all of the conditions and restrictions of the original permit continue to be imposed; two, that the grass area north, south and west of the temporary steel building be designated as off limits between the hours of 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m, for uses other than parking vehicles and the ban on the use would include formal activities planned by the church as well as the informal and impromptu gatherings of the young people attending church functions; three, unloading of passengers, freight, gear or equipment be prohibited between the hours of 10:30 p.m. to 6:30 a.m.; fourth, that the parking for church functions be limited to the church parking lots or to Hovley Lane West; and fifth, that the landscape material around the temporary building which has died be replaced with healthy plants. Mr. Smith said he gave a copy of the letter to the representative of Southwest r.. Community Church, Mr. Phillips, and he could address the appropriateness of adding these conditions. Staff's recommendation was that the Planning Commission grant the one year time extension to September 30, 1999 and said that he would like to hear the church's response to the proposed conditions because he felt if the information contained on the first page of the letter is accurate that perhaps these conditions could address those issues and should probably be imposed, but he would like to hear from the church first. Chairperson Campbell ogened the public hearing and asked the applicant to address the commission. MR. ROGER PHILLIPS, Church Administrator for Southwest Community Church, started with number one, which was to use the same restrictions they have now was fine with them. Regarding number two with the area being off limits between the hours of 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m., he said the only problem with that was that it would be very difficult and said he would have to put armed guards out there to keep people from moving around because a lot of children, kids and people that attend their church might saunter onto that grass area. They have no planned activities between those hours on that grass area, but he believed it would be very difficult to manage that and guarantee that. 25 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Number three, no unloading of passengers or freight between 10:30 p.m. and 6:30 a.m.; they could certainly stop most of that but they couldn't stop all of it. As an example he said they just had a group of 2,200 kids at the Field of Dreams and when they finished that at 1 :00 a.m. they had to take all of their stuff, because Field of Dreams wouldn't let them keep all of their materials there, and they had to bring it back to their church. He didn't know what else they could have done. Also, they were singing with the Boston Pops Orchestra at the McCallum Theater and when they finished that they would have to unload all of their materials and bring them back to the church because the McCallum wasn't going to store all of their material for them. Those were some of the issues that happened and he didn't know what else they could do. They were talking about a lot of material and sometimes that happened. Number four, regarding parking being limited to the church parking lots or Hovley Lane West, the problem with that was that they have 200 or 300 visitors sometimes at their church and sometimes even more than that and to go to all the side streets to make sure they didn't park there, he didn't know how he would do that. That was pretty tough. They did meet with the police department and were asked to have some areas painted red, which they did, and now they were moving a police officer to the corner of Portola to help with that because that traffic is much heavier then they thought it would be and later in the year they would put a police officer at the corner of Monterey to help with that traffic. He didn't know how to control that and said that perhaps they could send 20-30 people from the congregation to look at all of the sites and thought that would be pretty difficult. The last item was landscaping trees and he said that obviously they should do that and he was embarrassed that they were there talking about that. They should have replaced them their selves. He asked for any questions. Commissioner Beaty said he sensed the same attitude that had been exhibited before, that David Moore exhibited before, and it was that it was really hard and they couldn't really do that. Common sense said that when they return to the church in the middle of the night that they be quiet. Mr. Phillips said he totally agreed that they needed to be quiet. j 26 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 `.. Commissioner Beaty said that if the activities represented here were factual that didn't happen. That wasn't fair to people who are trying to sleep and something could be done about it. It was a continuing thing and hopefully the church would get their building built. Chairperson Campbell asked if Mr. Phillips was willing to conform to any of the proposed conditions. Mr. Phillips said yes on the last one, number 5, but the other ones, it wasn't that he was unwilling, he just found it almost impossible to guarantee that he could do that. They were going to go back and tell their people to be quiet and tell their people that they would like them to not park on the side streets. Commissioner Beaty asked if Mr. Phillips could guarantee that he would do that. Mr. Phillips said he could send the Commission the documentation that +�.. he did it on, but it was hard to tell someone coming from Minnesota not to park there. He didn't know how to communicate that. Commissioner Beaty asked if Mr. Phillips would comply with condition number one. Mr. Phillips said yes, one and five were no problem. Commissioner Beaty said the others were difficult but they would guarantee to make an attempt. Mr. Phillips said he would guarantee that he would give out letters, put things in the bulletin and communicate that to their people and to the groups that use those facilities, especially the ones in celebration arts who take all the materials and deliver it at 6:00 a.m. and tell them they need to be careful. Chairperson Campbell asked if there was adult supervision when they come back with the bus loads of kids and materials or equipment--that they have supervision that is there so that they could be kept quiet. low 27 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Mr. Phillips said yes, but asked if they had ever tried to keep 300 kids quiet. Commissioner Jonathan noted that Mr. Phillips said on conditions 2, 3, and 4 that he didn't know how he could comply with them. He gave Mr. Phillips an example. If the church were to cease operation that would take care of the problem, so there was one way to do it. The Commission's challenge was to find a solution that doesn't jump to that extreme. If they looked at number 2, if at a minimum they could say that there were not to be any formal or informal planned activities. Mr. Phillips said there weren't any formal planned activities. Commissioner Jonathan noted that Mr. Phillips could agree that there wasn't a problem with agreeing that there would be no formal activities between the hours of 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. in that location. Mr. Phillips said that was right. Commissioner Jonathan said that furthermore, if Mr. Phillips made a commitment to policing informal activities then that would probably take care of the problem. He assumed that if there were kids getting together, and he wasn't talking about two or three, but five, ten or 15 getting together and assumed that if they were there it was because there was some kind of function at the church and if there was some kind of function, then there were adults somewhere. There was some level of supervision, so he would think at a minimum that Mr. Phillips could agree to police any kind of activity in that location between 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. Mr. Phillips said that they have set up a guard there from when they were before the Commission last time. They placed a guard there. Chairperson Campbell said they would have parents there picking up children so there would be supervision. Mr. Phillips said he couldn't guarantee that one or two kids couldn't be wandering around and that was almost impossible; that was what he was trying to share. 28 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Commissioner Jonathan said he understood that and the Commission couldn't guarantee that the conditional use permit wouldn't be revoked. Condition number three referenced unloading passengers, freight, gear, etc., between 10:30 p.m. and 6:30 a.m. and Mr. Phillips cited some examples of events they attend. He didn't understand why, with sufficient planning, they couldn't have the equipment held at the McCallum until 6:30 a.m. the next morning or whenever. With sufficient planning, he questioned why loading and unloading of freight, gear and equipment would be necessary in the middle of the night. Mr. Phillips indicated that at the McCallum event, when they finished one of the performances the McCallum said they had another performance the next day and they needed them out so that they could load the next show. So they moved their stuff from the McCallum Theater and took it back to their location. Commissioner Jonathan pointed out that it didn't have to be taken back to their location. Mr. Phillips said it was a lot of material. Commissioner Jonathan said he understood that it might not be easy, but someone was going to suffer some level of inconvenience and if what the Commission was hearing was true, and he had to tell Mr. Phillips that the Commission has heard this several times before and he frankly was getting a little bit tired of hearing that there was nothing they could do about it because there was something they could do about it short of the ultimate solution, which was a denial of the conditional use permit. He thought there were solutions and he for one was willing to see them be encouraged by the Commission's actions to take greater effort. The McCallum was a good example and if there was no loading or unloading at those times they could find another place to put that stuff until it was daytime. Commissioner Beaty said they could leave it on the truck and unload it the next day. Commissioner Jonathan felt there were a lot of solutions and properly motivated people would find solutions to problems and he didn't think he needed to tell Mr. Phillips that. He thought that was what their church was about and commended him for that and said that maybe some of that effort needed to be directed to this particular matter. Number four, he had sympathy with Mr. Phillips' position there because while they could do certain things, ultimately it was legal to park on those side streets and he wasn't sure what actually 29 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION F OCTOBER 20, 1998 could be done beyond a good faith effort during the services to say, "hey, if you happen to be parked on side streets, please don't do that again because we want to cooperate with our neighbors" and maybe have flyers or signs and maybe people out and about letting people know as they are parked on the side streets to please park a little further down Hovley or whatever. Mr. Phillips said they had room in their parking lot and it wasn't full by any means. Commissioner Jonathan felt that a good faith effort on their behalf was the most they could expect there. Chairperson Campbell noted that it was a lot easier to park on a side street than look for a parking space in a parking lot. Commissioner Jonathan agreed and said that with some good faith effort, perhaps they could find a compromise. He understood that to some extent the residents would be inconvenienced, but if it was just for one more year, then there was some give on both sides here. Commissioner Finerty said that with regard to condition number two that the neighbors were requesting, the Commission had to remember that this church was contained within a neighborhood and there were a lot of kids in this area and that all kids that are playing on this grass weren't necessarily children attending church functions and she didn't see how it was practical or reasonable to hold the church accountable for all kids. Also, on number four, she asked if they as a city had to right to tell a certain group of people attending certain functions where not to park on public streets. Commissioner Beaty felt that Commissioner Jonathan made the same point and it was absolutely valid. Mr. Hargreaves said that with difficulty they could make some special arrangement if that was a particular problem, but under the current ordinances they could not prohibit parking. They could require the church to implement other measures that would try to capture that parking onsite, but it would be difficult. Chairperson Campbell noted that she lives on Hovley Lane West and she goes by Portola and Monterey and had yet to see any children playing in that grassy area. Most of the people that lived in there were adults. She lives in a community that have children and she hardly ever saw any children even playing in the street and she didn't think those were neighborhood children on 30 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 saw that property. Commissioner Finerty stated that she saw neighborhood children there last October during campaigning in that particular area. She took special notice because of the problems that had been reported and thought there were exceptions. Chairperson Campbell didn't think the neighbors were complaining about those children. Chairperson Campbell asked if anyone wished to speak in FAVOR or OPPOSITION to the proposal. MR. JIM RICHARDS, 40-840 Avenida Estrada, stated that he was the author of the letters that were submitted and actually had two more to submit. He stated that his home is just west of the grassed parking lot of the church. He said he distributed seven letters to all the homeowners who back onto either the CVWD well site or.the church grass parking area that all have a view of the steel temporary building behind them. The seven homeowners whom he poled he talked to all of them and he knew it was a single letter as opposed to seven unique ones, but he talked to all of them in the last 48 hours about these him issues and they gave him additional comments, many of which were not critical right now. Two of the homeowners who signed the letter were present, Jerry Wiley and Bob Bass, his neighbors, and he indicated they might want to speak. He distributed seven letters and got seven back. Of the ten homes on the street, one was a nonresident and the two he didn't pole were at the very south end that were least affected by these disturbances. He said he was sure the church was disappointed that they weren't moving right this minute, but the residents were a little more disappointed then that because in talking with the Commission last year about this temporary use permit, there was some anxiety that it would become more permanent than temporary so a building that sits for two years that looks more appropriate to the Cook Street warehouse area than to a residential area was a frustration to them aesthetically, but he wanted to address the five points they were making to perhaps fill in some blanks about behaviors. He felt Mr. Phillips' points were quite valid regarding the parking but one of the Commissioners responded to him that if an individual decides that a solution was impossible to a problem, then he or she would never work at finding that solution and that had been the stonewalling he has often sensed from the church. He said he would be pleased if the church would make an effort. Using number four as an example, if they would simply make 31 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 an announcement during church, put it in the bulletin, put it up on pillars or wherever saying to please, for public safety, access and everything else with traffic being as difficult as it is on Sunday with the volume of people, please limit parking to Hovley Lane or to the church parking lots. He wasn't asking for hard and fast rules here because he knew that public parking was allowed on those streets, but if they parked right adjacent to Hovley on both sides that narrowed their street by two car widths so access coming and going was very difficult and then when church is letting out, people get frustrated because there wasn't currently a policeman directing traffic on Monterey at Hovley West. They get anxious because they can't get out and do hard u-turns into this street where two cars are already parked so their access is very dangerous and if any pedestrians were around it would be even more so. If they made an effort to make announcements he would be pleased with that. On number two, another area of contention, what usually happened was that it wasn't so much as neighborhood kids and he kept a close watch on activities, but some neighborhood kids went to the church to skateboard. The steps were good to jump off of and there was concrete in front of the church. He has seen that and it wasn't a tremendous hardship and as long as they weren't hurt that was fine. What he was talking about was an activity where the church tended to invite on Monday nights and Tuesday nights particularly and some Wednesday nights, they invite young people junior high age or high school age to come to the church but it wasn't just sons and daughters of people who attend the church who worship there, it was an open invitation to the whole valley. Again, if a youth minister said to him that he couldn't keep tract of all of these kids and didn't even know all of them that meant to him that they are free in small groups or larger to wander the grass areas or to come into their property or like when the water well was being drilled for seven of them to climb on the water derrick. That was a problem and he didn't know how in legal terms to solve it, but the youth ministers were saying it couldn't be solved and they have no interest in addressing this point. The kids were going to wander and they couldn't stop them. They weren't all their kids, but guests. If they were guests, Mr. Richards felt the church needed to be responsible for their conduct and that was all the conditions were asking for, conduct of visitors, conduct of members, ' conduct of staff and that was what they were addressing. The unloading and loading he felt pretty strongly about because the 32 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 equipment they were talking about were risers, wood with steel trim being thrown into steel buildings. Those weren't quiet things. When they asked about adult supervision, there were adults there and there were young people, too. If the young people were misbehaving, he found very little indication that the adult supervisors, alleged, were doing anything to control their behavior. Even to the minimal community standard of conduct of saying that there are people sleeping all around them and to put the things down quietly, turn the trucks off in a timely manner and just show common courtesy. He hadn't seen that and it was almost as if sometimes that it was justified on the basis that the church activities are worthwhile and therefore all the rest can be excused and yet he wouldn't excuse it of a fellow neighbor nor would they of him if he were their neighbor. It wouldn't pass and that is why they were before the Commission to address that. He thanked the Commission for their time and said that yes, only one more year of this (allegedly) to endure, but in that year they would like to see even more improvement than they have seen in the past year. �•.. Chairperson Campbell asked when the children were climbing over the wall if it was close to his home. Mr. Richards said yes, it was his yard. He simply asked them if they were with the church activities and they said yes. He suggested that they return to those activities and stay out of his backyard and they said "uh" and climbed off the wall. No apologies or fear of him, although that was probably a sign of the times. He didn't know what their intent was except curiosity and he couldn't blame the church for a 13-year old being curious but he also knew that when he was at a church function he was expected to behave in a certain manner and it didn't involve wandering around into private property. Until he could get the youth ministers and adult supervisors at Southwest Community Church to concur with that sort of minimal standard, there would always be conflicts between their neighborhood and the church. MR. JERRY WILEY, 40-900 Avenida Estrada, stated that his property overlooked the Southwest Community Church and he was glad to see that there were some people here that realized that they do have problems over there. He signed the petition and he understood that the petition had been amended somewhat. They were going to have to put 33 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 ai up with the boom, boom, boom of the band that continues to go over there one or two nights a week that was very loud and they would have to put up with that for another year. He wasn't really happy about that, however, he could live with that if they could get number one, number two, number three, the amended version of number four and also number five. As Mr. Phillips was talking about the landscaping over there, a couple of trees have been dead over there for about five or six months. The shrubs didn't last long at all. Mr. Phillips said he was kind of embarrassed to bring it up that it hasn't been replaced, but the bottom line was that it hasn't been replaced and they don't have any time table when it would be replaced. He asked for any questions. Chairperson Campbell asked if Mr. Phillips wished to readdress the commission. MR. RICK BAYLARD, 78-635 Forbes in La Quinta, informed Commission that he is the youth pastor and that a lot of these things seemed to be about kids and what kids are and aren't doing. He said that for every activity they have at the church there is one adult for every ten students. All of their activities for the high school group for the most part had been moved off the church property to comply with helping their neighbors not be inconvenienced for the amount of students that they have. They have anywhere between 500 and 2,000 students that they work with on six high school campuses. They go to great lengths to comply with what the City has asked regarding the sound. They have taken some of their bands that meet at night and told them not to meet. They have turned down the sound and he felt they have tried to comply with what the City asked them to do and what their neighbors have asked them to do. These things he just heard about now was the first time he had heard about them. Twice a year they bring gear to their property at any time later than 10:30 p.m. The one incident that the Commission heard about tonight, he was there and there were five adults and about two or three students. They got there about 10:30 p.m. and unloaded their gear into the building and left by 1 1 :30 p.m. There was no one shouting or yelling, but it was still noisy but they tried to keep the noise down. They did have heavy gear. Those instances were once or twice a year. The McCallum was once a year and he didn't see any reason why they couldn't get there earlier, by 10:30 or 1 1 :00 at night or not be there after that. He didn't have any .r/ 34 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 problem with that, he was just saying that it was not a common occurrence. It didn't happen a lot. He felt that the things the City has given them to do that they have really attempted to try to comply with to make the best of the situation until they could move and solve all the problems at that point. He asked for any questions. Commissioner Beaty asked if Mr. Baylard felt that Mr. Wiley and Mr. Richards were being unreasonable. Mr. Baylard said he would rather not comment on that. Commissioner Beaty noted that there are some people that no matter what you do they weren't going to be pleased but what the Commission was presented with and continued to be presented with for a couple of times seemed reasonable and fair to him--their requests seemed fair to him and asked Mr. Baylard if he thought he was presenting a case where he felt they really made an honest attempt to curtail those activities. �... Mr. Baylard stated that he felt they had made a very honest attempt and that they have solved some problems. Some of the problems that the neighbors felt like they had, they complied with and he hadn't heard any of those come up so apparently they had complied with them. The problems outlined in the letter that he just received today, those were all new to him and people coming onto their property when they weren't there or whatever he had no idea about. He was just giving testimony for the students and what they do. The high school group was to the extent that it was too large and they couldn't have it on their property. Their junior high group was about 180 students on Tuesday night and they have one adult for every ten junior highers. They weren't roaming all over, but they were outside before the program started. They had staff people walk around the building to. make sure that they are in the program. They wanted them in the program and didn't want them out. If the junior highers that come from the neighborhood to their program decide to leave and tell them they are going to leave, they couldn't hold them there so they could walk off. If they had any problems, and they have had a lot of students that have been on that property and they haven't had any damage to their property, no fights or anything like that and he kind of felt like there ..m wasn't this chaos happening with everyone just running around doing 35 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 .ri whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. If they weren't used to being around students he could see how they would feel that way and he could take any one of the commissions and put them in with 2,200 students and they would probably feel a little intimidated and a little weird because they don't act adults, but there was adult supervision because they don't have fights or kids getting hurt. He felt like they have tried to comply with what would make it a doable situation until they can move. He didn't want to say anything about their neighbors. If they felt it was an inconvenience then X to them itae inconvenience. Chairperson Campbell asked if it was normal to Mr. Baylard. Mr. Baylard said he didn't say that either. For him to bring their stuff and to comply with the stuff the City already asked them to do he felt they have done that and these things that just came up were new to him. Chairperson Campbell noted that during this one year there were complaints from the neighbors that had come to the commission because some of the conditions were being broken. Mr. Smith indicated that the Commission had copies of the minutes of when this matter was before them. Commissioner Finerty said that she had copies of the minutes and the last ones were from September which was 13 months ago. Commissioner Jonathan asked Mr. Baylard how long he has been the youth pastor at Southwest Community Church. Mr. Baylard said that this February it would be seven years. Commissioner Jonathan said he was a little surprised by Mr. Baylard's comments that he wasn't aware of these problems since the minutes were replete with the very same problems that were being discussed here tonight and going back to at least March of 1997 and recurring since that time. Mr. Baylard said that was information he had not gotten. Commissioner Jonathan asked if he was aware of this situation when it first came up 18 months ago. r 36 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Mr. Baylard asked if Commissioner Jonathan meant aware that they were bringing gear in late at night. Commissioner Jonathan said aware of the same kinds of problems with noise and traffic. Mr. Baylard said he was telling the Commission that they did comply with the band noise. Commissioner Jonathan clarified that he wasn't asking about their compliance measures, but whether Mr. Baylard was aware that these problems have existed before. Mr. Baylard said he was aware that they had problems before and he was aware that they complied with those problems. After no further comments Chairperson Campbell closed the public hearing and asked for commission comments. top Commissioner Finerty said it appeared that there wasn't a problem with conditions one or five. With condition number two they have been told that there were no formal planned activities between 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. on the grass area. With regard to number three, Mr. Baylard indicated that they could comply with the hours of 10:30 p.m. to 6:30 a.m. with regard to moving the gear and she thought they had reached a consensus on item number four with going ahead and making an announcement and putting something in the church bulletin, but being realistic they knew that they really didn't have the right to tell people where to park on public streets. With that, she moved for approval of continuing this another 12 months but noted it was possible that the church could move sooner. They were calling for possible completion by June of next year. (The motion died due to a lack of a second.) Commissioner Fernandez stated that both his son and his nephew attend some of the Southwest Community Church activities. He has been there to pick them up. Also, his nephew lives right behind the church and he has been there for a couple of parties that they have held in the home of his cousin who is the Indio High School principal and is used to a lot of noise and to a lot of the things happening. It is a community and there are young people and young families moving in but what concerned him was the behavior of the leaders of two 37 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION i OCTOBER 20, 1998 the church that both Dr. Beaty and Commissioner Jonathan brought up. This has been before the Commission before and they weren't getting anywhere. The neighbors were getting tired and like he said, the times he has been there everything looked under control, but he didn't live there and the behavior from the church leaders concerned him. They weren't quite focused on what is going on and he knew that if both the neighbors and the church got together it would work but it had to be both parties focusing on the situation and that included the noise and the other issues. He again said that he has been there before and it was really nice and his son is 17 and his nephew is the same age and they have a lot of fun attending some of those activities at the church and he commended them for that because it takes the kids off the streets and gives them a lot of things to do, but on the other hand they had to respect their neighbors and if they are a church they are there for the community and the neighbors and he believed that something was going to have to give. He said he would like to continue this for another review. Commissioner Jonathan noted that in March of 1997 staff had proposed mitigations for the next 18 months and quoting from the minutes where he posed the question, they "asked Mr. Moore, as an honest person, if in his mind those mitigations would be effective in resolving the perceived problems that some of the residents have expressed. Mr. Moore replied absolutely, no question." He was wrong. Commissioner Jonathan noted that as some of the Commissioners have said, the problem in his mind wasn't the children, he thought the church leadership had failed to really take accountability in this matter and that there was a lot of denial and a lot of "we did what we could". Commissioner Jonathan didn't think they had done what they could and he would not be in favor of approving the request for an extension of the conditional use permit. Commissioner Beaty stated that he concurred with both Commissioner Jonathan and Commissioner Fernandez and he would be absolutely opposed to the approval until they get some sort of a sign from the church leadership that they will make an honest attempt and he frankly wasn't seeing or hearing that. Chairperson Campbell concurred with the other commissioners. She felt the church lacked leadership on the issues in question right now and it seemed like they said there was nothing they could do about it, so they wouldn't do anything about it. She was not in favor of extending the permit. 38 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 Commissioner Jonathan felt that Commissioner Fernandez's suggestion of a continuance had merit. He suggested that they place the burden on the church and ask them to come back, if they wished, to a time certain, with a specific plan that they would initiate, implement and oversee that would mitigate the concerns of the residents. He didn't feel it was up to the Commission to put together that plan, but put the burden on the church if they were so inclined and if that plan was to the satisfaction of both the residents and the Commission, they could move forward. He said he would rather have that than a flat denial and this would give them a chance to truly address the problems. Commissioner Beaty agreed and asked Commissioner Fernandez to make the motion. Chairperson Campbell asked the applicant if November 3 or November 17, 1998 would be better. The applicant indicated November 17. Action: ... It was moved by Commissioner Fernandez, seconded by Commissioner Beaty, to continue CUP 91-8 Amendment to November 17, 1998 by minute motion. Motion carried 4-1 (Commissioner Finerty voted no). Mr. Hargreaves recommended that the commission reopen the public hearing. Chairperson Campbell reopened the public hearing. Commissioner Beaty asked Commissioner Finerty if she was a member of the congregation. Commissioner Finerty said no, that she attended the church but was not a member. In order to be a member you had to attend membership classes and she hadn't. Commissioner Beaty said his question related to whether it was a conflict of interest and he sensed that Commissioner Finerty was emotionally involved and he understood that and wondered if she had a conflict. Commissioner Finerty said that she would be happy to address that. Number one, it was not a conflict of interest in her view. If they looked in their minutes of March of 1997 she gave a rather long speech with regard to her feelings on the job the church does. That is what, if there was any emotion he was detecting, where it came from--from the good that they do and she knew how hard they try. She respected them for that and respected them for the success they have had and for the good they do for all of the community because the youth is really where it is. She did not feel it was a 39 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 conflict of interest. They discussed that and a conflict of interest is in regard to any monetary benefit that she may or may not derive and there was no monetary benefit. She felt that the concerns of the residents were adequately addressed. Conditions one and five as stated were agreed to by the church as was condition three. They said they had no formal planned activities on the grass. Commissioner Beaty thanked her for her answer. Commissioner Beaty stated that no one here was criticizing in any way the goodness of the church. Commissioner Jonathan said he had a follow-up question and that Commissioner Finerty's point was well taken and wouldn't address this matter specifically, but there had been a few occasions where Planning Commissioners have been members of organizations and in some cases nonprofit organizations that have been before them and asked if maybe the City Attorney, if not at this meeting but at a future meeting, could give them an opinion on whether a conflict could exist when it's not a potential issue of financial gain but perhaps were other types of involvement with the applicant. Mr. Hargreaves explained that the Political Reform Act which is the standard way of judging conflicts was driven entirely by financial considerations. If there was no financial link, there was no conflict under the Political Reform Act. There is existing within California law the sense of the common law conflict of interest which existed before the Political Reform Act and the basis of that is when they sit in public office there is a commitment and goal to act on behalf of the public and if they have personal interest apart from financial interest that impedes their ability to act on behalf of the public as a whole, then it is appropriate to abstain as having a conflict. That didn't mean that just because they were personally involved that they couldn't act on behalf of the public, particularly when they are involved in organizations whose goals are to benefit the public. If anything, they might have more of an insight into a particular issue than other people, but the goal here is to always act on behalf of the public in the public good and not on behalf of a personal interest. Chairperson Campbell noted that the public hearing was open and was continued to November 17, 1998. E. Case No. ZOA 98-6 - CITY OF PALM DESERT, Applicant Request for recommendation to the City Council to approve a zoning ordinance amendment as it relates to Municipal Code Section 25.82.060 and 25.84.080, Action By The City Council. 40 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 \. Mr. Smith stated that when they were processing Walgreens through the City Council it involved a change of zone. It became clear or apparent that a couple of code sections weren't as clear as staff would like them to be as to how the City Council should act when its action differs from that of Planning Commission or when it is modifying an action by Planning Commission. He indicated that there was a difference. With the proposed language, they were trying to clarify the issue and it would apply to changes of zone and to zoning ordinance amendments. Part of it was determined through Government Code Sections 65857 that deals with modification and requires that significant modification be referred back to the Planning Commission and they were also plugging in language that while this Commission is familiar with the act of when staff brings in a draft resolution of approval on a matter and Commission decides to turn it down, Planning Commission directs staff to prepare a resolution of denial and tells them what the reasons are for the denial. At this point there wasn't currently precise language to that effect. They were adding that in because there were some on City Council who felt that an affirmative motion which didn't pass was a denial and that was not necessarily the case. Staff was clarifying those issues with this language. Chairperson Campbell opened the public hearing and asked for any testimony in FAVOR or OPPOSITION. There was none and the public hearing was closed Chairperson Campbell asked commission comments. Action: It was moved by Commissioner Beaty, seconded by Commissioner Finerty, approving the findings as presented by staff. Motion carried 5-0. It was moved by Commissioner Beaty, seconded by Commissioner Finerty, adopting Planning Commission Resolution No. 1901 recommending to City Council approval of ZOA 98-6. Motion carried 5-0. IX. MISCELLANEOUS None. X. COMMITTEE MEETING UPDATES A. CIVIC CENTER STEERING COMMITTEE - (No meeting) 41 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 B. DESERT WILLOW COMMITTEE - (October 13, 1998) Commissioner Finerty noted there was no meeting, but there would be one on the 27th. C. PROJECT AREA 4 COMMITTEE - (October 19, 1998) Commissioner Finerty stated that they decided on an eight-foot slump stone wall and they have about a third of the homeowners on Hovley that were willing to participate in the program. Sidewalks and landscaping would be going in on the Fred Waring side of the Palm Desert Country Club area. Commissioner Beaty asked if the City would pay a portion and the homeowners pay a portion. Commissioner Finerty said that originally there was talk about the City doing it, but they thought it would be a bad precedent to set so they decided to find out how many people are interested and offer them low income loans if they qualify and they also have the home improvement program where they can qualify for block grants. Commissioner Finerty said that the landscaping on Fred Waring and Hovley would be something that RDA would take care of. There had to be something worked out on who would maintain it after they put it in and they had to decide on whose property. Chairperson Campbell asked if that sandy area was City property right now. Commissioner Finerty said they believed on Fred Waring yes, on Hovley it was questionable. She indicated they would notice on Fred Waring that the walls were at different setbacks so they didn't know exactly. Commissioner Fernandez asked if they would put in sidewalks or just landscaping. Commissioner Finerty said they were looking at sidewalks and also on Fred Waring and because there was also a hill they might need to put in some sort of retaining wall which would be the City's responsibility. Commissioner Finerty said the approximate area was between Warner Trail to California and Elkhorn figured in there somewhere. They requested meandering sidewalks but due to the slope it might not be possible. The committee would be reviewing all the designs. Commissioner Beaty said it would be nice to see that done. D. PALM DESERT/RANCHO MIRAGE MONTEREY AVENUE CORRIDOR PLANNING WORK GROUP - (No meeting) 42 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 flow E. ZONING ORDINANCE REVIEW COMMITTEE - (October 15, 1998) Mr. Smith noted that ZORC met last week to discuss vending machines on sidewalks and basically they would have a retail group meet. Ruth Ann Moore of the Business Support Department would get a retail group together but it looked like they would continue to allow sidewalk vending machines, but require that they be screened from view. That looked like the direction they were headed. Commissioner Beaty asked what the status was of the clothing racks. Mr. Smith indicated the appeal was turned down by the City Council. He understood that the clothing rack might still be there without benefit of permit. Commissioner Finerty asked if Code Enforcement would be called out on it. Mr. Smith said yes. Commissioner Finerty asked if they had been. Mr. Smith said he didn't know. Chairperson Campbell commented on how Trader Joe's screened their shopping carts and now the first parking space at the entrance to the right, the first parking space, was storage for carts. She noticed that the other day. Mr. Smith noted that at the new Lucky at Deep Canyon while they do have cart storage, they don't have enough and they must have brought in more carts because they couldn't store them all in the cart storage area. XI. COMMENTS 1 . Commissioner Beaty asked what happens when someone grades with no permit--apparently nothing. Mr. Smith explained that was why they were here (Case No. HDPP 98-2). They were given instructions to stop work but as Chairperson Campbell and he observed today when they were up there most of the work was complete. Mr. Hargreaves stated that potentially they could be cited and fined and asked to replace the lot back into the condition it was before they started the grading. Mr. Smith noted that as indicated in the staff report where the new pad was placed was in staff's opinion the most appropriate place to put it, but if there was another spot on the site which was more appropriate in staff's opinion they would have been asked to move it. Commissioner Beaty felt that it still set a precedent that it was okay to do whatever they wanted up there and the City wouldn't do anything. Chairperson Campbell noted that it was like things that happen on the weekends vow when Code Enforcement wasn't around. Mr. Smith stated that at the 43 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 �.s last staff meeting it was said that Code Enforcement would begin patrolling on weekends again within the next couple of weeks. Chairperson Campbell asked if they could be called on weekends if they saw anything wrong. Mr. Smith said the probably could if they knew their pager number. 2. Commissioner Jonathan asked if Chairperson Campbell was still President of the El Paseo Merchants Association. Chairperson Campbell said yes. Commissioner Jonathan said he had a suggestion that he would like the association to consider. With The Gardens opening and El Paseo being a nicer street than it ever has been in his 20 years here, as a focal point to begin with one weekend a month he wondered if the association would consider closing off the vehicular traffic and having a food fair, performers and pedestrians could walk in the streets similar to the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica. Commissioner Beaty said he thought they were doing that this weekend on the 23rd and 24th. Chairperson Campbell indicated that it was the Oktoberfest on the street but they didn't close the street. For the golf cart parade some of the streets would be closed between Larkspur and Lupine. She stated that the association has considered that but the merchants don't want that type of thing on the street. They don't really want venders like Palm Springs has. Commissioner Jonathan said he was talking about something that was high end and upper scale. He has seen it in a few places but when he says performers or food, he was talking about high end things. One example was the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica and that place was packed with people who spend money and it was something that was an event. He would retract his suggestion, but thought that maybe at some later point in time if the merchants come across that kind of thing they might reconsider. He thought there was a similar thing that takes place in Vale in The Village and a couple of other places where it was very successful and brought in shoppers. He thought with The Gardens now open they would have a place to park on one end and could stroll down the street. Chairperson Campbell indicated they have always had adequate parking, although they still had some merchants parking right in front of their stores. 3. Commissioner Finerty wanted to discuss the appropriateness of the Hillside Ordinance and suggested placing it on the agenda or forming a 44 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 a.. committee to come up with recommendations. She asked what would be appropriate. Chairperson Campbell asked Mr. Smith if it should be discussed by ZORC. Mr. Smith said that they could refer it there or they could set up a separate committee to review the existing ordinance. Commissioner Jonathan suggested having a study session. Commissioner Finerty felt the existing ordinance was too vague. Commissioner Jonathan noted that there was a lot of history there and reasons why it was there and maybe some reasons why it is vague. He thought that if they were going to address it the best way was to have a study session with staff to go over the history and explain some of the reasoning and that would give them an opportunity to address some of their concerns. Commissioner Finerty said she would like staff to try and determine what the square footages are of other hillside homes. By putting in one home 5,600 square feet might be setting a very dangerous precedent and she was uncomfortable with that and felt that once they allowed one a second was sure to follow and she would like to take the opportunity to review it to make sure they were on solid ground and if they were going to allow it, perhaps to address the height of the building and possibility of the square footage since the ordinance was silent on two of the issues they look at. Commissioner Jonathan said he looked at the same issue and said great, bring on the $1 million homes. Not the height, but the 5,600 square feet. He didn't know a place in The Vintage that was under 5,000 square feet and he didn't have a problem with the size if it was properly done. He thought it was great because they were seeing a gradual improvement, although most of them were in the County. They were seeing those million dollar homes which he felt was more appropriate than the shacks that were homesteaded out there. Commissioner Finerty suggested that perhaps the ordinance could be more specific and if commission felt it was appropriate to have larger homes, then perhaps they could look at setting a minimum square footage. Commissioner Jonathan said they could talk about that but he didn't want to rule out larger homes. He didn't think he would want to require it. Mr. Smith pointed out that the original ordinance was done in 1983 so perhaps 15 years was a reasonable life; however, he suggested they hold off of review on it until as Commissioner Jonathan indicated in the hearing, until this matter is complete and that may be some time in that in all likelihood it would be called up before City Council and they need that type of input am also so if they were to start talking about it in November and it didn't 45 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 ■rt get to Council until January, the issues might be moot. Commissioner Jonathan suggested tracking the Babai application until it was done and then having a study session to address the ordinance. Commissioner Finerty asked if there was any backup material since Commissioner Jonathan mentioned that there was a lot of history. She wanted to read any material available to get up to speed. Mr. Smith said he would see what he could dig up from 1983. He thought there was a fairly elaborate file. Commissioner Finerty said she was curious why they would propose such a vague ordinance when generally they do a better job. Commissioner Jonathan said that could also be addressed in study session. Mr. Smith said that basically the reason was that it was supposed to be an enduring document and the Commission and Council would be given enough latitude to approve what they wanted to at the point in time that an application was received. Commissioner Finerty said she would like to see the City decide what they want to do with the hillside, have the Commission give their thoughts to Council and move in that direction. Sne didn't know that vague and being able to approve what they want or don't want was necessarily the best way to head off in a certain direction. She felt they needed to look at the big picture. Chairperson Campbell asked if she wanted a study session. Commissioner Finerty said she didn't mind waiting until after this other matter was concluded. Mr. Hargreaves stated that there is a standard in the ordinance to the effect that the site location, grading roads, and architectural design shall be approved by the Planning Commission. Architectural Commission shall minimize the adverse aesthetic environmental impacts and maximize the preservation of the natural character of the hillside. That right there gave them the discretion to do quite a bit out there now. Defining what that might be in certain circumstances might be a little difficult. Mr. Smith said the height was not silent here, but was flexible. "Structure, height and setback shall be flexible in order to achieve the purposes of the section." s 46 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION OCTOBER 20, 1998 %WW Xtl. ADJOURNMENT It was moved by Commissioner Beaty, seconded by Commissioner Fernandez, adjourning the meeting by minute motion. Motion carried 5-0. The meeting was adjourned at 9:31 p.m. STE HEN R. SMITH, Acting Se retary ATTEST: 'QJ" ,- SONIA M. CAMPBELL, Chairperson Palm Desert Planning Commission /tm 47