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Home My WebLink About0215 �1�� MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION �,,, � TUESDAY - FEBRUARY 15, 2005 . � 6:00 P.M. - CIVIC CENTER COUNCIL CHAMBER 73-510 FRED WARING DRIVE � * � � � * � � � * * � � � � * � * � � � * � * * * � � � * � � * � * � � � � � � I. CALL TO ORDER Chairperson Jonathan called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m. II. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE Commissioner Campbell led in the pledge of allegiance. III. ROLL CALL Members Present: Sabby Jonathan, Chairperson Dave Tschopp, Vice Chairperson Sonia Campbell Cindy Finerty �► Jim Lopez Members Absent: None Staff Present: Phil Drell, Director of Community Development Bob Hargreaves, City Attorney Steve Smith, Planning Manager Francisco Urbina, Associate Planner Mark Greenwood, City Engineer Mark Diercks, Transportation Engineer Phil Joy, Associate Transportation Planner Tonya Monroe, Administrative Secretary IV. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Request for consideration of the February 1 , 2005 meeting minutes. Action: It was moved by Commissioner Campbell, seconded by Commissioner Finerty, approving the February 1 , 2005 meeting minutes. Motion carried � 5-0. MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � 4 V. SUMMARY OF COUNCIL ACTION "'� Mr. Drell summarized pertinent February 10, 2005 City Council actions. VI. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS None. VII. CONSENT CALENDAR A. Case No. PMW 04-01 - BIGHORN DEVELOPMENT, LLC AND ELAINE M. PIZZA, Applicants Request for approval of a parcel map waiver to merge and reconfigure Lots 18, 19 and 20 into two lots within Bighorn Tract 25296-2. B. Case No. PMW 04-24 - HAGADONE FAMILY TRUST, Applicant Request for approval of a parcel map waiver to merge Lot � 4 and Lot A within the Canyons at Bighorn. � Action: It was moved by Commissioner Lopez, seconded by Commissioner Campbell, approving the Consent Calendar by minute motion. Motion carried 5-0. VIII. PUBLIC HEARINGS Anyone who challenges any hearing matter in court may be limited to raising only those issues he, she or someone else raised at the public hearing described herein, or in written correspondence delivered to the Planning Commission at, or prior to, the public hearing. A. Case No. TT 32498 - PORTOLA POINTE, Applicant (Continued from January 18, 2005) Request for approval of a tentative tract map to subdivide 4.68 acres into 16 single family lots (8,700 square foot � � 2 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 � minimum size) located on the east side of Shepherd Lane, 300 feet north of Frank Sinatra Drive. Mr. Urbina outlined the salient points of the staff report and recommended approval. Chairperson Jonathan opened the public hearing and asked the applicant to address the Commission. MR. RON SCHWARTZ, 74-794 Lennon Place in Palm Desert, said he was present on behalf of the applicant, Portola Pointe, and the property owner, Portola Pointe LLC. He pointed out that in the staff report there was indication that the property owner appears as Joan Flynn. He said they closed escrow on the property and Portola Pointe was the owner and they are located at 73-385 Pinyon Street in Palm Desert, California, 92260. He also thanked Mr. Urbina for the preparation of the staff report and the effort he put forth. They were present to say they accept all the conditions as indicated in the staff report. He asked for any questions. � There were no questions. Chairperson Jonathan asked if anyone wished to speak in FAVOR or OPPOSITION to the proposal. There was no one and the public hearing was closed. He asked for Commission comments. Action: Commissioner Finerty said with delight that she would move for approval of low density single family housing. Commissioner Campbell seconded the motion. Commissioner Lopez asked if the change of address should be included in the motion. Staff indicated no. Chairperson Jonathan called for the vote. Motion carried 5-0. It was moved by Commissioner Finerty, seconded by Commissioner Campbell, adopting Planning Commission Resolution No. 2323, approving Case No. TT 32498, subject to conditions. Motion carried 5-0. B. Case Nos. C/Z 05-01 and Amendment #1 to PP/CUP 03-06 and TT 31363 - SARES REGIS, Applicant Recommendation to the City Council of approval of a change of zone from PR-5 (planned residential, five units per acre) to �.... 3 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 - � � � PR-13 (planned residential, 13 units per acre), and an amendment to a precise plan/ conditional use permit and tentative tract map for condominium purposes to construct 320 residential condominium units on a 26.4-acre site on the north side of Gerald Ford Drive, 636 feet east of Monterey, 73-240 Gerald Ford Drive; APN's 653-260-029 and 653-260-021. Mr. Smith distributed a location map. He noted that last year Commission approved a 320-unit project on the north side of Gerald Ford. It was ultimately approved by the City Council May 13, 2004. Later in the year the Lowes project was approved to the west. A 15-foot wide piece of property was left between the two, which was a driveway or a planned driveway which was intended to lead to a one-acre site at the north end. All of that currently owned by Verizon. Sares Regis was in escrow to acquire that 1.4-acre site and, therefore, requested approval of a change of zone to bring that 1.4- acres into consistency with the zoning on the main 25-acre site, and an amendment to the tentative map and the precise plan to include the 1.4-acre site. There were no additional units being proposed. They were spreading the units out a little more, which was something Commission urged them to do during the processing of it. They also picked up two parking spaces over the total. Mr. Smith stated this was a Class 5 Categorical Exemption for CEQA purposes. He noted that Planning Department passed out revised conditions of approval to add Condition No. 2, "That this approval shall become null and void should Sares Regis fail to acquire the adjacent Verizon property." He understood that the applicant would be raising concern with a couple of Public Works conditions, specifically related to No. 10 where they are asking for full improvement of the interior streets. It was his understanding that those standards would not apply. The streets as shown on the plan would be the approved street widths. Condition 20 will apply in as much as it is a condominium project, whether the condition was there or not they would be required to pay the parks fee. And then there was some question with respect to the SCE easement along Gerald Ford Drive and Public Works could address that issue. Mr. Joy said the condition was placed on the project more or less to alert the applicant to the fact that he would need to provide the Edison easement. ,� Staff wasn't sure of the width, but it would be similar to the one provided by � Ponderosa Homes to the east of this project. The map would not be able to 4 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY_ 15, 2005 � proceed without it. Mr. Drell asked why that wasn't within the public right-of- way parkway. Mr. Joy explained that it had something to do with the abandoned Edison easement at the corner of Dinah Shore and Portola Avenue. He remembered a lot of that got tied together at that time. Mr. Drell indicated that typically public utilities go in the public right-of-way and that is why we have parkways. He asked if they knew why in this case it wouldn't since he thought there were at least 12 feet or more of parkway and typically that's what parkways were for, to handle public utilities. He thought they needed to add, "or as determined by the City Engineer" in case it wasn't necessary. He didn't understand why it wouldn't go where utilities usually go. Mr. Joy stated that since the City Engineer requested this condition be placed on the project, it was probably a good determination. Mr. Drell said that with the added language, it could be deleted by him as well. Mr. Joy concurred. Chairperson Jonathan asked if there was any other discussion. Mr. Smith said no, except to say that staff was recommending approval. Commissioner Tschopp asked for clarification on Condition No. 10. He asked ;,�,,,, if he was saying it was approved prior with/creates less than those required per the code. Mr. Smith said yes, they went through it at length last time at 24-feet. Mr. Drell said these really weren't streets, this is a circulation system within an apartment project. Reference to public street standards didn't really apply. Commissioner Tschopp asked for confirmation that Condition No. 10 should be deleted. Mr. Drell said yes. What is shown on the plan is what was approved. This wasn't really a public street situation. His understanding is that Public Works has approved the streets as shown on the plan. Mr. Joy indicated that a lot of that street requirement also pertains to thickness of concrete, asphalt and issues like that. They would require that regardless. Chairperson Jonathan summarized that the conclusion is that Condition No. 10 would not be required and it could be deleted. Staff concurred. Chairperson Jonathan noted that Mr. Smith mentioned the Lowes project to the west. He was curious about the current status of construction of Lowes, Super Wal-Mart, and so forth. He asked if staff knew when those would be breaking ground. Mr. Smith answered soon. Mr. Drell informed them that Wal-Mart was hoping to open January of 2006. Lowes had an issue with certain fees, but they might be a little behind that, but as far as staff was aware, they are still a go. � 5 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � Chairperson Jonathan recalled that by the time Wal-Mart was completed, Dinah Shore would be extended to Portola. He asked if that was correct. Regarding the status of Portola, Mr. Diercks said it was still in design and is part of an assessment district being formed up there. The plans were almost ready for approval, but he wasn't sure of an actual construction date. Chairperson Jonathan asked if he could guess. Mr. Diercks said within a year. He believed it was rolled in with the assessment district. Chairperson Jonathan said he bought this up because as they see these box stores develop and as they are getting projects in the whole Gateway industrial park area, in addition to the matter before them now, they were obviously starting to see development out there and it was important to have the infrastructure to handle the traffic flow. Mr. Drell concurred. He explained that an assessment district was being formed to build out all the streets. Within that, certain parts would actually be built prior to the completion of the assessment district under a provision that allows those to be reimbursed at a later date. He believed Sares Regis would be building improvements themsetves prior to the assessment district being formed. He didn't know the timing of the City's Portola portion, but assumed it could be done the same '`� way. ,� Commissioner Lopez asked about Condition No. 2. It indicated that this would be null and void should they not be able to acquire the adjacent property. He asked what the applicant would do at that point. Mr. Smith said it would revert back to the 25-acre project that was approved a year ago. There were no other questions and Chairperson Jonathan opened the public hearing and asked the applicant to address the Commission. MR. MIKE WINNER, with Sares Regis Group at 18825 Bardeen Avenue in Irvine, addressed the Commission. He said he was basically present to answer any questions. He pointed out that on Condition No. 20 regarding in-lieu park fees, they were providing quite a bit of open space and park-like amenities with the project as designed, so they felt that since they are providing the amenities, they wouldn't need to pay a park fee for something they are providing on- site. Chairperson Jonathan said he understood. As well, he asked if Mr. Winner understood the conditions that had been discussed. 6 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 � Mr. Winner said he was fine with them. There being no further questions for the applicant, Chairperson Jonathan asked if anyone wished to speak in FAVOR or OPPOSITION to this matter. There being none, the public hearing was closed. Chairperson Jonathan asked for Commission comments. Commissioner Tschopp asked for comments from staff on Condition No. 20 raised by the applicant. Mr. Drell explained that the applicant could request of City Council credit for a portion of their park fees they feel have been satisfied onsite, so that was a question they would have to take up with the Council. Obviously they weren't providing soccer fields or baseball fields, etc., but on the other hand they were probably putting in swimming pools that the City doesn't provide. It was a request they could make of the Council. Commissioner Campbell asked if they could approve the project, leaving in the condition, and they could take it to Council. Mr. Drell noted that this item was going to Council anyway. Planning Commission didn't have the authority. He said they could express their opinion about it if they wanted �, relative to the Council action. Chairperson Jonathan asked for and received confirmation that the Planning Commission's whole action was simply a recommendation to Council. Action: Commissioner Campbell thought the original project was great and it would be even better with the addition of more land. She moved for approval. Commissioner Tschopp seconded the motion. Chairperson Jonathan asked if the motion and second included the deletion of Public Works Condition No. 10, and Condition No. 23 as amended to add as determined by the City Engineer, and leaving Condition No. 20 in. Commissioners Campbell and Tschopp concurred. It was moved by Commissioner Campbell, seconded by Commissioner Tschopp, adopting Planning Commission Resolution No. 2324, recommending to City Council approval of Case Nos. C/Z 05-01 and Amendment #1 to PP/CUP 03-06 and TT 31363, subject to conditions as amended. Motion carried 5-0. �... 7 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � � C. Case No. CUP 04-13 - THE ROMAN CATHOLIC BISHOP OF SAN BERNARDINO, Applicant Request for approval of a conditional use permit for a master plan to expand the Sacred Heart Elementary School (K-8) including the construction of eight new classrooms, a new library, lunch shade structures, a new parish hall/gymnasium, a new playground for grades 2 thru 5, new sports fields and track, a reconfigured paved parking lot with 35 spaces, a new paved parking lot with 87 spaces, and a grass overflow parking area for 78 spaces. Mr. Urbina reminded Commission that in summer of 2004, Father Lincoln and Holt Architects held two community meetings at the Sacred Heart Church to explain the proposed master plan to surrounding property owners within a 300-foot radius. The main concern voiced at those community meetings was potential traffic impacts from the master plan. Subsequently, on August 3, 2004, the Planning Commission held a public hearing on this case. After hearing testimony, the Planning Commission ,� continued the public hearing to a date uncertain to allow time for the applicant to hire a traffic engineer to prepare a traffic study. ,,,� Mr. Urbina summarized some of the main components of the master plan. He indicated that it involved the construction of new buildings to provide new classrooms for the Sacred Heart Elementary School, as well as a new library, shade structures, new playground and a new track and sports field. Where the sports field and track are located in this area, there were presently 18 residential apartment units. The Church plans to only keep six of those units shown in the three duplex buildings. The others, most of them were already vacant and the Church has assisted in relocating the residents that used to live there. In addition to the expansion of the school, the purpose of expanding the school is to accommodate 90 additional elementary school students. There is at the present time a long waiting list of parents wanting to enroll their children in the Sacred Heart Elementary School. The other component of the master plan proposed construction of a new parish hall building north of the existing sanctuary. The parish hall would � serve a dual purpose, both as a parish hall for parishioners and as a gymnasium for the elementary school. 8 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 �w He showed a cross section of the parish hall building. He explained that at its maximum height, the building would have a height of 35 feet. The site is zoned Planned Residential; the standard maximum base height is 24 feet or two stories, whichever is less, in the Planned Residential zone. However, there is a section in the Planned Residential zone that allows the Planning Commission to grant an exception to the height based on what is proposed on a planned development plan. The applicant indicated that the proposed height is necessary in order to achieve the minimum 20-foot clearance inside the building to allow activities such as basketball and volleyball. Further, higher than the 20 feet, the additional height is needed to accommodate some trusses to support the roof structure. In this case, the architect has designed the building with a sloping gable roof to match the existing metal seam roof at the Sacred Heart Church Sanctuary. So the application involved the request of a height exception of 24 feet to 35 feet only for the parish hall building. The school buildings would be under 24 feet in height. Mr. Urbina also noted that a traffic study was prepared by George Dunn � Engineering. The two main findings of the traffic study were that there is a Level of Service F (LOS F) at the intersection of Deep Canyon Road, the main entrance at the church driveway, and the Palmira entrance and exit. He pointed out the location. He explained that a LOS F is achieved because three of the ten vehicles observed during the 7:45 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. peak morning time had to wait longer than a minute. The other seven vehicles did not have to wait longer than a minute. The City Engineer indicated to Planning staff that it is not uncommon in the city of Palm Desert at uncontrolled or unsignalized intersections for residents to have to wait more than a minute during the morning and afternoon peak times in order to leave a subdivision onto a major arterial street such as Deep Canyon. The other main finding of the traffic study is that during Sunday morning during worship services there is also some traffic congestion on Deep Canyon and the main church driveway. This made it difficult for residents wanting to turn left exiting Palmira. They have to wait until vehicles that are waiting to turn left from northbound Deep Canyon turn into the church parking lot. Parking has been an issue at Sacred Heart in the past. In February of 2003, Code Enforcement staff visited Sacred Heart Church parking lot on � 9 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 � � � � a Sunday and observed that there were approximately 119 vehicles parked along Deep Canyon Road and that of the 430 striped parking lot spaces within the church parking lot, there were 30 more vehicles parked above the 430. To address that parking issue during Sunday worship services, especially during the winter time, the master plan proposed the creation of 168 additional parking spaces. Those spaces would be created north of the existing sanctuary building. He pointed out on the map where an additional 35 spaces would be located, an additional 86 spaces in a paved parking lot, and an overflow parking area providing approximately 78 parking spaces. Staff added a condition of approval that if the overflow grass parking area becomes so heavily used that the turf dies and becomes large dirt areas, at staff's discretion the applicant would be required to convert that into a paved parking lot with landscaping that meets the City Zoning Ordinance requirements. The master plan also proposed the creation of two drop off/pick up locations for parents dropping off and picking up their children from the Sacred Heart Elementary School. He pointed out the location of the current drop off/pick up area (located south of the school). Cars enter F from the west and proceed to drop off the children, then exit to the east ,,,� onto Deep Canyon Road. Under the new master plan, there would be one drop off location located south of the school and another one created northwest of the existing school (that would be accessed from Deep Canyon Road). The purpose of having two drop-off locations is to facilitate traffic movement during the mornings and afternoons. The Sacred Heart Elementary School operates from 8:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. Most parents drop off their children between 7:45 a.m. and 8:00 a.m. and pick up their children between 3:00 p.m. and 3:15 p.m. Because of the new secondary school drop off, that would mean more morning traffic traveling northbound along Deep Canyon Road and thereby impacting residents that want to exit via the Palmira subdivision. They would have to wait for more traffic to pass in front of them on their way to the school before they could safely exit. Going to the traffic study recommendations, the traffic study made six recommendations. Two of the six recommendations were standard Public Works Department conditions of approval, such as payment of }� Transportation Uniform Mitigation Fees to fund regional transportation � improvement projects and Public Works Department review and approval 10 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15� 2005 � of all new proposed curb cuts and driveway locations. The other four recommendations of the traffic study that are project specific were incorporated into Public Works Department Conditions of Approval Nos. 20 through 23. Condition No. 20 reads, "The Church shall monitor student pick up/drop off operations after master plan build out and make modifications regarding grade classifications assigned to each pick up/drop off area as the student mix changes per the project's traffic study. The applicant agreed to that condition. Condition 21 reads, "The Church shall not schedule any activities in the newly constructed buildings concurrently with scheduled religious services per the project traffic study." The Church agreed not to schedule any activities in the new parish hall or in the school during worship services. So Saturday and Sunday worship services would not be impacted by the master plan, or any impacts would be positive through their creation of 168 additional parking spaces. There would not be any new uses occurring at the site during Saturday or Sunday worship services. �, Public Works Department Condition No. 22 reads, "The Church shall implement a change in weekday mass time such that weekday morning masses would begin at 7:10 a.m. or 7:45 a.m." Mr. Urbina informed Commission that Sacred Heart had already implemented the change in their weekday morning mass time. Masses used to be held from 7:30 a.m. to 8:00 a.m., which created a little bit of traffic as parishioners were exiting the church and as parents were coming to the school to drop off their children at 8:00 a.m. In late January, the Church changed the weekday start time to 7:45 a.m. Public Works Department staff visited the site after the implementation of the new weekday morning mass start time and did not observe any traffic congestion or delays at the intersection of Deep Canyon Road, the main church driveway, or the Palmira exit. Condition No. 23 reads, "The Church shall construct pork chop islands at the southerly two driveways to prevent left turn movements either from Deep Canyon into the Church parking lot or from the Church parking lot onto Deep Canyon." The rationale of this condition is to force more parishioners to enter the main church parking lot via Fred Waring Drive, thereby reducing the traffic impacts at the intersection of the Palmira � 11 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 entrance and the main church driveway. Or to redirect parishioners to use the northerly parking lot. However, the Public Works Department submitted a memo this afternoon slightly amending Condition No. 23 with regards to the pork chop islands. The new amended Condition No. 23 has a new sentence which reads, "An interim pork chop island configuration shall be initially installed and assessed by City staff prior to the installation of permanent improvements." In other words, the pork chop islands are to be constructed on an interim basis and their effectiveness evaluated, at which time the Public Works Department would make a determination if they should be located there permanently. If the pork chop islands do not substantially mitigate traffic, then Public Works Condition No. 23 has two additional requirements to be implemented. The first additional requirement would be for the Sacred Heart Elementary School to implement staggered school start times that would be at least 45 minutes apart so that the morning school drop off traffic would be split in half essentially, thereby not impacting all at one time the intersection of the Palmira exit and Deep Canyon Road. The third part of Condition No. 23 is if the pork chop islands and staggered school start times do not effectively mitigate traffic issues, then the Public Works Department would require that a secondary exit be provided from the Via Palmira subdivision onto Moss Rose Drive. He stated that there is currently an emergency only access from the north end of the Palmira subdivision onto Moss Rose Drive. The developer of the subdivision had originally intended that to be a full-time secondary access; however, when a public hearing was held before the Council on that subdivision, residents from Moss Rose Drive complained that they feared that there would be too much traffic from the Palmira subdivision impacting their residential street, Moss Rose Drive. Staff did not think that opening up a secondary access would create a substantial amount of traffic on Moss Rose Drive. There are only 12 homes between the secondary exit from Via Palmira along Moss Rose Drive to Deep Canyon Road, so the additional traffic would only impact 12 of the homes on Moss Rose Drive, not all of the homes on Moss Rose Drive. Secondly, since the secondary exit would be an exit only, that � would also minimize the amount of new traffic impacts on Moss Rose Drive because it would be an exit only. Staff thinks that probably at least 12 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 � 50% of Palmira residents would still choose to exit via the main Deep Canyon Road exit. Mr. Urbina informed Commission that Father Lincoln and his architect were present and they had some issues with the order of phasing of some of the Condition No. 23 traffic mitigation improvements. He believed they would like to see opening the secondary access be the first thing that is implemented, and the Church was willing to contribute financially toward creating an automated exit secondary access gate from the Palmira subdivision. He said Father Lincoln could address their concerns in more detail. Sacred Heart Church also passed a written response to Mr. Tom McCutchen's letter dated February 9, 2005. He explained that Mr. Tom McCutchen is the President of the Palmira Homeowner's Association. His February 9 letter, attached to the Planning Commission's staff report, requested 14 specific conditions of approval to be added to this project. Staff incorporated five of the 14 requested conditions into the conditions of approval. Staff also distributed today a written response to the other � nine requested conditions of approval. Mr. Urbina said there would not be any outdoor lighting on the play fields. That was one of the conditions requested by the Palmira Homeowners Association. Another condition of approval being recommended by staff was that there be no outdoor broadcast systems. According to Mr. McCutchen there were some instances in the past where the elementary school was broadcasting some music in the morning 15 minutes before the school start time. With staff's condition, there would be no outdoor broadcast systems at any time. Staff recommended that the Planning Commission adopt a resolution approving Conditional Use Permit No. 04-13 based on the findings and conditions recommended in the Planning Commission resolution attached to the staff report. Chairperson Jonathan said he had a few questions. The staff report indicated that the Planning Commission asked for the Traffic Engineer to prepare the traffic study during October or November, but the staff report indicates the traffic study was actually done in September. Mr. Urbina confirmed it was late September when the traffic consultant actually did � 13 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 � � the traffic counts at the site. Chairperson Jonathan said he was curious because Planning Commission was pretty specific in saying they wanted it looked at in October or November. He asked why it wasn't done in October or November. He asked if there was a specific reason. Mr. Urbina said he would have to defer that to the project representative. A specific reason had not been provided to staff as to why that didn't occur. Chairperson Jonathan said he would come back to that later with the applicant. He asked if he was here today. Mr. Urbina said Holt Architects was present, although he wasn't sure if George Dunn, the traffic engineer, was present. Chairperson Jonathan said he would ask the applicant at the appropriate time. Chairperson Jonathan said this might be for the applicant as well, but noted that there are other gymnasium structures that he assumed require the same clearance of 20 feet, but he believed they didn't step up an additional 15 feet. He asked if Mr. Urbina knew if that was true or not. He was trying to figure out if there were alternatives that have been implemented in other structures here in the city that don't necessarily go .� with the full 35 feet. Mr. Urbina said yes, the Jewish Federation � Community Center gymnasium that was approved a few months ago on Portola south of Gerald Ford Drive would have a gymnasium with a flat roof with a height of 27 feet. Having a flat roof can reduce the height of the gymnasium structure. In the 1 1 x 17 cross section diagram that was submitted this afternoon by Holt Architects, they indicated that the building could be lowered from 35 feet to 33 feet and still maintain the pitched roof. The architect's main objective was to try to create a building that had a pitched roof similar to the Sacred Heart School building. He also pointed out, as he did in the staff report, that the height of the gymnasium/parish hall building steps up gradually from approximately 19 feet at the perimeters, then steps up to the 35-foot height. The building is setback 68 feet from the westerly right-of-way line of Deep Canyon Road and approximately 170 feet west of the closest residential property at the Palmira subdivision. The architect could perhaps address that issue in more detail. Chairperson Jonathan indicated that the recommendation from staff is � that the use of the parish hall end by 10:00 p.m. Sunday through Thursday, and by 1 1 :00 p.m. Friday and Saturday to minimize late night 14 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 �� noise and traffic impacts. Mr. Urbina said that was correct. Chairperson Jonathan said that for a guy who generally goes to sleep by 9:00 p.m., sometimes even earlier, 10:00 p.m. or 11 :00 p.m. seemed pretty late, so he was wondering if that time was arbitrary or if there was a specific need to accommodate by going to 10:00 or 1 1 :00 p.m. He asked where that time came from. Mr. Urbina explained that Father Lincoln indicated that 10:00 p.m. would be preferable to 9:00 p.m. because of some activities that occur during the week, but perhaps he could address that question in more detail and whether that time could be changed from 10:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. Chairperson Jonathan noted that one of the conditions of approval indicated a change in weekday mass times so that mass begins at 7:10 or 7:45 a.m. He didn't quite understand about the 7:45 since that is one of the starting times for school. He asked if they would want mass to start at a time other then when school starts. Mr. Urbina said yes. Staff thought that most people attending a weekday mass would arrive before 7:45 a.m., which is when the majority of traffic from parents dropping their children arrive. They thought by 7:45 a.m. most of the people � wanting to attend mass would already be inside the building with their cars parked; however, if Planning Commission thought that time should be amended to further improve the a.m. traffic situation, that could be done. Chairperson Jonathan agreed with him that people would get there sometime before 7:45 a.m., but similarly for the school if it starts at 7:45 a.m., they were hopefully getting there a little before then as well. So he would ask the applicant about that. As a point of clarification, Chairperson Jonathan said the staff report at one point talks about no outdoor sound system between the hours of 5:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m., but the conditions of approval as reported at the meeting tonight prohibit outdoor sounds systems at all. He asked if that was an inconsistency in the report or if he was just misunderstanding it. Mr. Urbina stated that the conditions of approval would supersede whatever was mentioned in the report. Chairperson Jonathan asked what the difference n use was between a parish hall and a sanctuary. He asked if a parish hall was for prayer and if it was like a sanctuary. As Mr. Urbina understood it, the parish hall would be used, the main activities that would generate the most traffic, would be like a spaghetti fund raising dinner for the church. Chairperson � 15 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � Jonathan said it was sort of like a social hall then. Mr. Urbina said worship services would not generally be held in the parish hall and worship services are the ones that have the highest trip generation. Commissioner Lopez noted that the staff report indicated the overflow parking on the grass and he was curious why, if this was going to be parking that would be used every single Sunday for the most part, except for summer time when it is very hot, the question comes up if they are going to overseed during the fall when it is busy. He asked if there was a reason we haven't said it should just be a paved area. Mr. Urbina said that they were allowing the applicant the opportunity to try on a trial basis to see how the turf parking would work. However, that was a good point. During the winter season it will probably be used every weekend and the rye grass might not stand up very well to the traffic. That was certainly a consideration the Planning Commission might choose to amend that condition to require a paved parking lot from the very beginning. Commissioner Lopez noted that they received a lot of materials and there '� was one report that parking was an additional problem during a funeral � service. He could ask the applicant, but didn't see anything regarding the coordination of funeral services during the course of the week as it pertains to school times. Mr. Urbina said that was a very good point and the Planning Commission should probably consider adding a new condition requiring that funeral services not be scheduled to coincide with the morning or afternoon peak school drop off and pick up periods. Commissioner Lopez noted that all churches want to be successful and one of the concerns that had not been discussed and brought up is if the parish hall would be used as overflow for services. Mr. Urbina said it was his understanding that it would not. One of the conditions being recommended is that simultaneous use of the parish hall not occur during worship services. Staff felt that would prevent the parish hall from being used for overflow worship services. Chairperson Jonathan asked if that was a condition. Mr. Urbina said yes, it is Public Works Department Condition No. 21 , "The Church shall not schedule any activities in the newly constructed buildings concurrently with scheduled religious services per the project traffic study." Chairperson Jonathan said they may want to clarify that because it could be interpreted that the religious � services can take place at other locations within the master site. Mr. 16 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � Urbina said he was correct, they would not want to see overflow worship services on the existing school buildings in addition to new buildings. Chairperson Jonathan said they could even add a sentence that "worship services shall be limited to the sanctuary." Mr. Urbina concurred. Commissioner Tschopp noted that the overall construction would add enough buildings to house an additional 190 students to the elementary school. He asked if that was correct. Mr. Urbina said it was only 90 additional students to the elementary school. There was a typing error in Community Development Condition No. 12. It should state that the maximum number of students enrolled at Sacred Heart Elementary School shall not exceed 540 students, not 640. Current enrollment is 450, plus 90 additional students would bring them to 540. Trying to figure the math out, Commissioner Tschopp said the preschool program will not expand. Mr. Urbina said that was correct. Commissioner Tschopp questioned if they were thinking with the after school care program increasing to a maximum of 150 students might be some traffic mitigation gain from having children leave later during the day? Mr. Urbina said yes. There is an after school care program at Sacred Heart ;�, Elementary School and the use of that program might increase; however, they don't think the projected increase would create substantial traffic impacts after 3:00 p.m. On the overflow parking, Commissioner Tschopp asked if that would be available at all times during the weekends or when there are services and so forth to be used before people park on the streets. It was Mr. Urbina's understanding that it would be available for certain during weekend services; however, he didn't know if the Church intended to restrict access to it during the week. For special events or other activities that occur in the city where it is required where they see policemen directing traffic, Commissioner Tschopp assumed that was something that someone decided was a safety concern and they were wanting the officers to do that and he asked if that was something the Police Department did on their own or who exactly created that and regulated that as necessary. Mr. Greenwood said that in the case of St. Margaret's and the Presbyterian Church, it was a choice of the churches themselves. The City didn't require it. Mr. Urbina said that was one of the requests made by Mr. McCutchen of the Palmira Homeowners Association, that the church �... 17 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � have policemen there during worship services to help direct traffic. In staff's response in the memo distributed this evening, staff recommended that the Church consider training and designating some of its members to essentially provide the same functions and to police the parking lot to help direct traffic entering and exiting the church and making sure motorists do not park or block fire lanes. Chairperson Jonathan o ened the public hearing and asked the applicant to address the Commission. MR. TIM HOLT, Principal Architect at Holt Architects, addressed the Commission. He said he would like to address some of the questions posed, as well. He said they have been working with staff since June or July of 2004 to bring about solutions to the issues that have surfaced. They've had numerous meetings with. neighborhood groups, as well as adjacent neighbors that immediately surround the property, particularly on the north and west boundaries. Some have voiced :� concerns about the site walls and landscaping, existing large trees „�„� that have blocked views over the years, and so on. There have been a number of efforts to interface with the neighborhood, with the community, in a meaningful way. They worked closely with staff, they've engaged the traffic report as has been mentioned and he believed the plan seeks to bring about an effort to produce a meaningful circulation pattern within the property that is Sacred Heart. He thought many of them have experienced throughout the valley the difficulty with approaching elementary, middle and high schools during the school week with regard to drop off and pick up, those critical areas, early in the mornings and again from mid to late afternoons. So the objective here is to bring about an on- site circulation pattern so that parents could safely drop off children onto the site and not have to simply pull up at curbside and deal with traffic issues, as well as letting children out on both sides of the car. He thought the plan spoke to that well. � The buildings were a meaningful extension of what was there. The parish hall building was the largest of the group and it was 18 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � intended to be a very multi-functional structure. Multi-functional in that it could be a social hall, an event for sporting activities, an event for group gatherings, seminars, that type of thing. It was not intended to supplement the sanctuary as a worship facility, so he thought he could clarify that for them right now. The purpose of that building's size and height, and he hoped to be able to show them a little fly around of the building, the parish hall building, if technology cooperated (through a power point presentation). He said there is an interesting grouping of structures on this site which he thought were appropriate and meaningful, both for worship as well as for the educational functions that occur here. There were exposed aggregate integral color masonry walls that for the most part dominate the vertical surfaces of the school, the church and the administration building. Significantly, there were copper-toned standing steel metal roofs that characterize Sacred Heart and create a very special aesthetic to this part of our city. � They felt that rather than bring in a building with a flat roof that was limited in height, it would be appropriate to bring in a complementary type of structure. The parish hall as it had been reviewed at Architectural Review was meant to be positioned in a way that complements the sanctuary. The building was meant to complement the church building and from that standpoint they thought the architectural expression was meaningful with regard to the existing buildings on the site. Regarciing the site plan, the intent of overflow parking, there are two spaces on the site to review. There is an area immediately north of the parking area that serves primarily the parish hall. That area is multi-functional playground. They have a spectrum of age groups from kindergarten through eighth grade which suggests a separation of playground activities. They felt that most meaningfully, the principal and the staff at the elementary school were excited about having different play areas for different age groups that can occur during the course of the day. In working with their landscape architects, they came up with some ideas they think are creative and can work well, particularly � 19 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � � that space that Commissioner Lopez asked about a few minutes ago. There are 78 additional overflow parking spaces there that can be used virtually any time. The primary point of overflow would be during peak season worship services such as Easter, Christmas and times like that. The balance of the time, rather than converting it to parking, because they have essentially met the criteria regarding the parking ordinance on the site and the capacity of vehicles to be housed on the site, would be to enable that space to be used for an educational playground area. They thought the multi-functional playground area there was appropriate. Furthermore, the football/track area is intended with a gate access to also create overflow potential for those peak times with an additional 150, perhaps 180 cars could be placed there for special events and purposes. The objective is to get as many cars off the street and onto the site as possible. He suggested that the position of Sacred Heart Church is to accept � the conditions of approval that have been presented and modified, � with just a couple of comments about a few of them. Community Development Condition No. 10 suggests and reads that any activities and use of the parish hall shall end by 10:00 p.m. on Sunday through Friday and 1 1 :00 p.m. on Saturday. There had been discussions, and he wasn't sure how that ended this way, but they would like to request that the 1 1 :00 p.m. hour also be considered for Friday evening as well as Saturday because of functions they think are appropriate for Friday night as well as Saturday night. He would let Father Lincoln speak to the specifics of those in just a moment. Condition No. 1 1 was another one that indicated that outdoor sound systems shall be prohibited at all times. They currently have a sound system at the site. He believed it was necessary and functional. Staff did everything they could to be very respectful of the volume of that sound system. They were willing to be and wanted to be good neighbors. And with regard to volume control, they could talk about a number � of factors there, but the Church would like to respectfully request � that the sound system currently present on the site be allowed to 20 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 �` expand to the new buildings such that it could function at times other than from 9:00 to 7:00 on a daily basis. Lastly, Public Works Condition No. 23 regarding the pork chop islands at the two southerly driveways on Deep Canyon, there had been significant discussion regarding those two access points. They felt those were focal to this discussion. Internally, the parents of preschoolers have been requested to circulate into the site from the Fred Waring driveway and not those two locations and they then could function as the pork chop islands might suggest in a right-turn in, right-turn out configuration. They respected that staff is trying to work with them to get this done, so a temporary provision to accomplish that is reasonable and they were in agreement with that. Regarding staggering the school times, if that should come, he would let the principal of the school speak to that, but he believed there could be a hardship created for the school and for parents that have children to at different times be required to drop them `' off two different times in the morning. So that could be a point of � discussion they would like to examine a little more closely with the Commission. He said he was present to answer any questions. On the height of the wall, Commissioner Lopez asked if Mr. Holt could give them an idea of how that could be accomplished going from an eight to a six or how he would anticipate that going. Mr. Holt said they looked at a couple of details to make the transition between the different height walls. There are a couple of different preferences and they wanted to be responsive to the property owners on the other side. They were looking at a stepped condition. He didn't have a drawing for them tonight, but one that would respect the masonry module. They would normally be working with an 8 x 8 x 16-inch exposed aggregate or interval color blocks and they would step those so it would not be a simple straight linear type of step. There would be an architectural component to it and perhaps they could provide a drawing in the near future to illustrate it. � 21 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � � Regarding noise, Commissioner Tschopp noted that Mr. Holt said they currently have an outdoor amplification sound system. Mr. Holt concurred. Commissioner Tschopp pointed out that staff was recommending that no outdoor system be allowed. He thought that might be per code. Yet they were using one right now and he thought the hours Mr. Holt was asking for was a little beyond what would normally be required in a school. Mr. Holt said they were recognizing with that request that the parish hall would have some use during the week. Not coinciding with the sanctuary, but there would be a need to make announcements for playground activity and those types of reasonable things that occur during the course of the school week. The times he believed were negotiable and they could work on whatever basis. He thought the conversation that brought about this particular request was focused on some of those night time activities where the parish hall might be used for a Friday night � special event or something like that. � He said the parish hall was designed similar to a couple of other facilities in the desert they may have seen. Palm Valley School happened to have a similar situation with their gymnasium where there's a stage located at the south end of this building with two large doors, one which could open up and allow the stage to function to the interior. The alternative was for the exterior door to open and that stage could then be viewed from the exterior of the common fellowship courtyard between the sanctuary building and the parish hall. It would be for special events like that when they felt it would reasonable for them to be able to use that system. Commissioner Lopez said that was a good point, because what he was concerned about, he was sure there needed to be a sound system and in lieu of having a sound system that is put into a school properly, then they might revert to the hand megaphones and electronic megaphones and those really were rather annoying. He asked if the system they were � looking at to put in the school, he asked if they were the hanging down � speakers that shoot out or how that worked. 22 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � Mr. Holt yes, they are. He confirmed they would be in the other buildings as well. He said they were simply asking to expand the existing system, not to create additional volume capability or that type of thing, but to reasonably be able to alert students and use it for announcements and things like that. Commissioner Lopez asked if staff was aware that there was a system currently in use. Mr. Drell said there isn't a code against having sound systems. They have noise ordinances that limit sound during the day versus the night. As long as they don't violate those, he didn't believe there was an ordinance against outside amplified sound that doesn't exceed those thresholds. In most situations, outside amplification is a fairly rare event in most environments outside. With the school, it is something that is a more continuous activity and that's when it could become more of a problem. So that would be the motivation for limiting it. They limited it on the Jewish Community Center and they weren't allowed an outdoor amplified sound system. On that same subject, Commissioner Tschopp assumed that public �.. schools, like everything else, are exempt from that ordinance. Mr. D�ell indicated we don't have an ordinance; we have a noise ordinance. Technically, as long as those sounds do not exceed the noise ordinance, he wasn't aware of any ordinance that would prohibit them other than as a condition of approval on a specific project. But he didn't think their existing facility was in violation of an ordinance unless someone else on staff knows of an ordinance we have that limits them. He didn't know where they got the idea it was against code. Regarding the sound system that Mr. Holt was requesting be expanded into the new buildings, Commissioner Finerty asked if that was simply for announcements only. Mr. Holt asked Mr. James Brennan to step forward since he is the principal. DR. JIM BRENNAN, Sacred Heart School at 43-775 Deep Canyon Road, addressed the Commission. He stated that the sound system in question is similar to that in other Catholic schools, private schools and public schools. They use it in the morning to gather for prayer. At times they play some religious music. He said �... 23 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING CONVMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 , � � � they were more than willing to monitor the noise level. He said they keep it at something that is acceptable to their neighbors. It is also used to ring bells to change classes, to call students to the office du�ing the day, and to make necessary announcements. Also to monitor and control emergency drills, fire drills once a month, earthquake and disaster drills once to twice a year. It is a way to communicate with a large student body in a way that is typically acceptable in schools. If the subject at hand is the noise level, they were more than willing to monitor the noise level so they are good neighbors and don't invade the privacy of those around them. Commissioner Lopez said he would make a recommendation that this particular condition be reworded such that the existing sound system for the uses just outlined should be acceptable and perhaps address any special events that might occur on campus. This would avoid or disallow the opportunity to set up outdoor sound systems that would have music or bands. He thought that should probably be the direction this condition should shoot for and allow the continued use of the current system. � Chairperson Jonathan said they could discuss that when they get to Commission consideration. Regarding some of the issues brought up earlier, Chairperson Jonathan asked if Mr. Holt knew why the traffic study was not done in October or November as specifically requested by the Planning Commission. Mr. Holt said he really didn't. He was under the impression personally that while the requirement was brought forward in late July or early August, it was a request specifically that the traffic study be done after the beginning of the school year, which he believed would have been around Labor Day, around the first of September. He thought the impression was that moving it into September would deal with the primary area of concern. He couldn't speak to it beyond that point. Chairperson Jonathan asked if in his mind there would have been a different level of activity in October/November versus September. He knew Mr. Holt and trusted him to give an honest answer. 24 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � Mr. Holt said that as our desert season approaches, there would have to be a consideration. He presumed that would only be reasonable. He thought the concerns expressed were resulting from the intensity of use in this particular area-neighborhood, seemed to center around the fact that they have a public elementary school, a public middle school right around the corner, they are a block and a half from Palm Desert High, and many of them have experienced over the years what happens right after Labor Day and he thought that was what dominated their thinking. Sacred Heart happens to be right in the middle of all of it. He said one of the things they learned in the process, and thanks to Desert Sands Unified for seeing fit to open up Aztec Road over on Cook Street, which had a considerable impact he understood from the traffic study and he believed that was confirmed by the City Engineer that a lot of traffic now exits the high school northbound onto Cook Street and has alleviated considerably the traffic congestion in this area. � Regarding the parish hall in terms of keeping it open in the late evening hours, up to 10:00 p.m. or 11 :00 p.m., Chairperson Jonathan asked typically what kind of usage/activities/events would be in that parish hall at that time of the evening. Mr. Holt said he would pass that question to Father Howard. FATHER HOWARD LINCOLN, Sacred Heart Church at 43-775 Deep Canyon Road, addressed the Commission. He informed them that the events that would take place on a Friday or Saturday night would be, maybe for starters, a spaghetti dinner. The reason he was concerned about the 10:00 p.m. cutoff was because if a spaghetti dinner went until 9:00 p.m. or 9:30 p.m., they still have people there cleaning up. To keep a cutoff time of 10:00 p.m. and say everyone should be out by then would be difficult to promise. It would be few and far between that they would be past 10:00 p.m. They also have a great number of single people in their parish and it was one of his hopes and kind of dreams to have a singles group, so he would like to have a place for single people to meet � 25 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 �� and they could get them together. But he was just concerned about saying they would have no one there past 10:00 p.m. They don't have a lot of plans to use it as a total gathering of the church during the course of the year, but that was his concern. Regarding the funeral services, they were held usually at 10:00 a.m. or 12:00 p.m. They weren't held at 8:00 a.m, or 3:00 p.m. He has been there three and a half years and they have never had a service during the weekdays around when school starts or ends. He also explained that the difference between a sanctuary and parish hall is the parish hall will be used for social purposes and the sanctuary is where they worship. Regarding September/October, In terms of their people, they come principally after Christmas or at least during December, so honestly, between September and October there is very little difference in their attendance. He said they would have no restrictions to the parking lot. There was a question about the � grassy area and it would be open at all times. They would abide, � as well, by the fact that they would just use the sanctuary for ,,,� worship. The difference in the starting times, they changed the time of the mass to try to be good neighbors to try to alleviate the traffic problem. The school starts at 8:00 a.m. Previously their mass started at 7:30 a.m. so mass would be over at 8:00 a.m. at the same time the parents would be delivering the kids to the school. It had been that way since President Kennedy worshiped at their church. He believed it has been 7:30 a.m. since that period of time. To move it to 7:45 a.m. is an enormous change for their elderly people if they have been going there at 7:30 for 30 years. They did that to try to alleviate the traffic flow. This way when school starts at 8:00 a.m., they are in the middle of mass and no one is leaving then. So they start at 7:45 a.m., they leave the mass and they have a novena after the mass, so they are leaving 8:20, 8:25, 8:30, well after school has started. Chairperson Jonathan said that explained it. 26 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � MR. MICHAEL ROVER, 73-265 Willow Street in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. He said he is the President of the Sacred Heart School Board and has been for about two and a half years. He is the parent of four children who attend Sacred Heart School and Preschool. His oldest son, Rex, is in third grade in a class with about 35 students at this point. They are trying to reduce class sizes at Sacred Heart and they have made a concerted effort to do that. They made a real financial investment both as parents and as a parish to do that. � What they've done in that regard is committed to increasing the number of classes per grade so what they've done is they've gone from one class to having second, first and kindergarten having two classes, and then each year they expand and add one class so the goal is to have two classes for K through eight. That's the main reason for this expansion project. They started this project a few years ago when they added the four additional classrooms which are currently used for the middle school classes, sixth, seventh and eighth, and a science lab. What they needed to do now is � complete that project. At the risk of sounding presumptuous at the ripe old age of 39, he wanted to hopefully shed some light on the history of Sacred Heart Church. He said it was a little presumptuous because he is younger in years, but he has been a member of the church since his baptism in 1965. At the time of that baptism the church opened up out onto Deep Canyon. As they realize when they drive by Deep Canyon and see the church, what used to be the front doors of the church are about 12 feet from the curb of Deep Canyon Road. It was kind of their diversion back then when the parents were standing around drinking coffee and eating donuts the kids would go across the street and run around through the grapefruit and date groves and they did all kinds of things their parents shouldn't know about. The reason he brought that up is because when Sacred Heart was formed, across the street was a date grove. To the north of Sacred Heart on Deep Canyon was no Deep Canyon. It was dirt and that was about it. So Sacred Heart was clearly developed in that area while the community developed around it and he thought � 27 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � ;�� that was important to remember. Sacred Heart was started there in 1957. The school was established some 28 years later through the foresight of the three pastors who had come up in Sacred Heart at that time to develop the school there. It was always anticipated that the parish. would be developed because it was realized even back in the 50's and 60's that this was a developing community. So that being said, some 14 years after the school was formed, Palmira came along. They all remember that as if it was just yesterday and it has been a fantastic addition to the neighborhood and is a great looking project and they have parents in that community who love being there because they are right across the street from their kids school and they support the school, they support the church, and they support Palmira. Around about that same time, he knew that's when Moss Rose was developed and those projects to the north and back to the wash. He thought it was important to remember how this thing � developed and it was important to remember that Sacred Heart � has always held a key place in that quadrant of the city. At the time it was kind of on the outskirts. When he attended Palm Desert Middle School, they used to walk through absolute desert from Palm Desert Middle School to attend after school CCD or the Sunday School equivalent for Catholics and there was dirt. It was interesting to think about what has happened in that area now. He asked Planning Commission to keep in mind what has developed, that they haven't interspersed themselves in an area there and tried to blow the thing up. They have had a consistent, steady growth pattern to the point that maybe there is some impact on the neighbors, but they try to do it in a way that is best suited to them. There has been some impact from their development on his church as well. But keeping that in mind, he thought it was important to remember that Sacred Heart is part of the fabric of the community in that area. Everything that is good that happens in Palm Desert is represented also at Sacred Heart. They have family activities, worship, prayer, boy scouts and girl � scouts, AA meetings. They've always been a good neighbor, � they've always been respectful of the community in that area. '� � 28 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � Indeed, all the members of the church are obviously members of this community and have been for the last 48 years. As a lawyer, he looks at things kind of through a different set of lenses. There's a legal doctrine called, "Coming to the Nuisance" and he didn't know if they could call Sacred Heart Church a nuisance, but Sacred Heart was there and everything else kind of came to Sacred Heart, so he wanted them to keep that in mind and keep that in context and thought they could all work together and make this thing the best situation possible for all the students who attend Sacred Heart School, 434 as of today. He appreciated their time. Chairperson Jonathan asked for testimony in FAVOR or OPPOSITION. He stated that he had two blue Request to Speak cards. He explained that they ask for those that are in favor of the project to go first, then those that are opposed to go second, and then they give the applicant an opportunity to readdress the Commission. He asked everyone to limit their comments to three minutes or less and please make the comments �, relevant and pertinent to the application before them and try not to simply repeat anything at length that has been said before. If they are in agreement with something said before them, just let the Commission know that rather than repeating the entire set of comments. He said they would be at the meeting as long as they needed to let everyone speak, so everyone would have an opportunity to address the Commission. So they wanted to entertain comments in favor of the application first. He had a card from Dana Carnes, which didn't indicate if he was in favor of opposition. (Mr. Carnes spoke from the audience and said he was in opposition.) Chairperson Jonathan said he would get to him shortly and asked for anyone wishing to speak in favor. MR. PHIL STEIN, 77-582 Ashberry Court, addressed the Commission. He said he is not a member of Sacred Heart, he is of the Jewish faith, but he is a very spiritual person. He has seen some of the congregations in our community grow as the community has grown. This evening the Commission approved projects that would allow more people coming into our community and housing developments. He did not know Father Howard Lincoln personally, but he could only tell them from what he heard through the community or read in the papers that this man is � 29 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � :� � � bringing people to our community. He has people coming from outside of the community also. The church is growing, spirituality is growing, and our country has grown on the basis of family. He thought with that in mind and the growth we have in our community that it is expected that people will have to go somewhere to pray and the church is growing because they are bursting at the seams. That is why he was in favor of their approval by the Planning Commission. MS. SHEILA THORNTON, 79-595 Rancho Santa Margarita in La Quinta, addressed the Commission. She said she is a parent of four daughters, one of whom graduated from Sacred Heart in 2003 and is now at La Quinta High School. The other three, one's in eighth grade, one in sixth and one in fourth at Sacred Heart School in Palm Desert. They've been in the desert four years. They moved from Los Angeles and moved their children from a Catholic school in Los Angeles to Sacred Heart specifically to get the kind of education they were looking for in Catholic schools. She had three things to address. First of all, Sacred Heart Church � � and School has been around for a long time, and she knew that Mike Rover addressed this earlier, but it has a long history and it has an important part of what Palm Desert is about and the attraction to Palm Desert specifically. There were so many people that attend Sacred Heart and that have children in the school there that are impacted by the great work that Sacred Heart is doing. She appreciated that and wanted to acknowledge that. Second, when they moved here four years ago they did have issues with traffic. She knew a lot of that was alleviated with improvements in the road from La Quinta to Palm Desert, like the Fred Waring corridor and Highway 1 1 1 , in addition to the Palm Desert High School improvements they've recently seen. But in the past year she has seen significant improvement in the decrease in the amount of time it takes to get into the school. Being a person and parent who is often sneaking in at the very last minute, she would know that. So she found a way to go along Fred Waring and it was completely open. She also discovered that the entry into Sacred Heart School off of Fred Waring is very efficient and F she thought the parents discover that as they do this on a regular "� .� � 30 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 � basis, so parents are pretty smart about that, so she trusted they would find that in the future. From a practical perspective, aside from the fact that the mass schedule at Sacred Heart she knew drew numerous people, which was a fantastic thing for them from a church perspective, and she knew it was a burden to the local community. The only other time she saw really significant impacts from a traffic perspective was from 7:45 a.m. to about 8:05 a.m. It is 20 minutes to get 400 or so children into school and then the same thing from about 2:53 p.m. to maybe 3:15 p.m. and there was a real sort of concentration of traffic for about eight minutes and the rest of the time it is relatively easy to get in and out. She does this all the time. She's there for after school sports, picking up a daughter who is doing a particular extra curricular activity, for monthly board meetings and all kinds of other volunteer activities. So she experienced it on a daily basis and there really was no huge impact except for those two 20-minute periods. She said the benefit of allowing that school to grow by 90 children far outweighs the �„ disadvantage of two 20-minute periods five days a week because she thought they were making an impact on the community and were doing a great job. MS. GABRIELLA GAMLIN, 79-625 Rancho San Pascual in La Quinta, addressed the Commission. She is a parent of one child who attends Sacred Heart and she was here to, without being repetitive of the things said in favor of the project, she was present to support it as well. She thought it was worth mentioning as far as the traffic situation that it obviously was not only an issue of numbers of cars, but the flow of the movement and with the changes that have been proposed, that would greatly mitigate the problem they see in those critical 20 minutes as Mrs. Thornton just mentioned. Also, with the condition of approval that was suggested about the staggering of children coming to school and the elementary ages, she would repeat what someone else said that it would be a hardship, not only speaking out of selfishness that it would be a hardship, not for her because she has one child, but there are many families with many children. It would not mitigate the � 31 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � problem of that concentrated traffic because having before and after school care, she thought what most parents would do that have several children is simply pay out of their pocket to bring their children and place them in the before care in order to not go back and forth. So she didn't think the numbers would be reduced and would cause a hardship. She also supported what she had witnessed as far as funeral arrangements in the two years she has been a parish member and also a parent of a student there. She'd never seen funeral activity conflict with traffic from the school. Again, she thought it had been nicely worded about what the school brings to the community. MR. VINCENT GIOIA, 77-724 Justin Court in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. He said he is President of the Whitehawk Homeowners Association. He was present to speak in favor of the project. The school is such an important part of this community. It offers opportunity to families that go well beyond � the nature of the church. So many people want to go to school ,,,� that have the kind of program that Sacred Heart has. They have an opportunity to expand somewhat. It wasn't even a major expansion, it was just adding 90 students. Frankly, he sat there listening to the Commission and others and he seemed to get the feeling that they were putting all kinds of obstacles in the way of trying to have this accomplished. It didn't make any sense to him. This was an important project. This was reminiscent of people who build developments near airports after the airport has been there a long time and then they complain about the airports, "oh, this doesn't make sense." He thought they had to take into consideration the importance that this school and this small expansion will provide to the community as a whole. He thought that should carry a lot of weight. MR. JOE HAMMER, 74-757 North Cove Drive in Indian Wells, informed Commission that he has two little girls who attend Sacred Heart and he also attends mass there on Sundays and Wednesdays. The 8:00 a.m. start time they mentioned is quite important because that is the time they drop their kids off at � 32 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � school. A staggering drop off would disrupt the whole operation that they've set up in the morning. As far as noise and lights and so on, he said they shouldn't forget they have Palm Springs High School. He attends the football games during the season once in a while. It goes past sometimes 10:00 p.m., 11 :00 p.m., and it was plenty noisy and they use loud speaker systems there. Maybe there was an exception to that; he didn't know. He said they shouldn't forget that the traffic in that area is not only caused by the Palm Springs High School, but also by the two public schools and Sacred Heart. Considering how much traffic accumulates in the morning between 7:45 and 8:00 a.m., it's pretty smooth overall. He takes his children there every morning with his wife and his experience is he's surprised how well it goes. This community needs this expansion at this school. He's a land owner, not a developer although he was accused of it once in a - while. They need an expansion of this Catholic school. They need � an expansion of all schools. The fact that this parish is standing up and willing to spend the money, he is on the Finance Committee for the school and it was substantial. He said let's not discourage them. The Commission just approved several more homes by the new Lowes and Super Wal-Mart and these people will have children that will need to go to school somewhere. There was one thing he really kind of resented in the questions earlier about the time of worship and this new parish hall, if approved, being used for worship. Before he started going to � church at Sacred Heart, he attended St. Francis in La Quinta and there was overflow. Sometimes they would overflow into the parish hall. It was so people could worship and was the reason people go to church. In this world we live in, all the awful things that happen, why would they want to discourage people from going to church? One last thing he thought the City Attorney should address, through some of the earlier questioning, he didn't think it was any business of this city or state or U.S. Government to question times of worship. He has friends that are Jewish, Episcopalian, Lutheran, � 33 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � and they all use their parish halls for worship. Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, there is a reason they are worshiping and he didn't think they should be limiting times of that being done and he kind of resented that. But overall, he hoped they approved this project. It is a really good project and a wonderful school. MR. MARK HEMSTREET, owner of Shilo Inns, informed Commission that he ha� developed a lot of real estate over the western United States in the last 35 years, so he has been at his share of Planning Commission and City Council meetings. He commented on the design. It appeared that the architects along with the School Board had come up with a very thoughtful, comprehensive master plan that obviously took into consideration some of the issues raised by the good neighbors tonight. He knew they have reached a consensus in satisfying some of those issues. He knew that in talking with Father Lincoln and some of the School Board that they truly believe in communication and cooperation, not conflict or confrontation. They truly want to be � good neighbors. � As a parent, he was fortunate enough to have three children, plus sponsoring another child, that have the great fortune and opportunity to attend a quality, alternative education program that Sacred Heart offers. This is a success story. It is a wonderful problem to have. Talking about parking, when he receives those complaints from his manager on occasion, his comment is what a wonderful problem to have. Now they have an increase in church attendance, like some of the people commented here tonight. Again, what a wonderful free society that we all enjoy and live in where people can practice their freedom of religion. And for the parents and students that have freedom of choice for the alternate education program which Sacred Heart offers. He hoped with their collective wisdom that they could all pull together as a community and focus on the obvious benefits derived from this proposal. Tremendous benefits. And not forget the most important benefit is the investment in our most treasured assets, our children. _� 34 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � MS. ALIDA CARRILLO CARUPAS, 72-918 Bursera Way in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. She said she is a parent of a child at Sacred Heart and has also been an instructor/teacher at Sacred Heart. She was also with the Desert Sands Unified School District as one of their substitutes and was also on a contract basis, so she has worked at several of the public schools in the community. She agreed with many of the people who have spoken, but as an instructor, she was part of the pick up and drop off process. She could tell them that she was amazed that in seven minutes, from 3:00 p.m. to 3:07 p.m., it was cleared out. It probably extends to about 3:15 p.m., but it is a very quick process. She has also chaperoned Friday night dances for 7th and 8th graders. She was talking about 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. Students have a DJ, they don't really dance for the first hour and mill around the cookies, but it wasn't a wild party. It was very small and very controlled. Not very many students because it is a small school. She said the drop off and pick up procedures are very �, orderly compared to many of the public schools she has had the fortune to work at from Indio Middle School, Indio High School to Lincoln Elementary which was just around the corner. The entry and exit process is orderly enough where in a matter of five to ten minutes most of the congestion is cleared. She couldn't say that was the case when she was trying to get to a school she was supposed to work at. She was in support of the project and hoped the Commission agreed. MR. JEFF PEPPLE, 140 Paseo Monticello in Palmira, addressed the Commission. He said he is a parent of a third grader like Mr. Rover's son, Rex. He is a parishioner at Sacred Heart and he wanted to go on record that he and his wife specifically chose Palmira because of its location to the church and they support the expansion. MR. MICHAEL MUFFOLETTO, 23 Via Cielo Azul, a resident of Palmira, addressed the Commission. He said his child also attends the school at Sacred Heart and they are also parishioners at Sacred Heart. He had the unique benefit of being right in the middle of �... 35 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � � this. His wife takes his son to school every morning and being so close they could walk, but his wife prefers the drive. So she exits their gate and makes it across Deep Canyon right into the school parking lot. They don't drop their child off, they park there and walk up to start his morning. They do gather outside in a grass area. There is a P.A. system and a little music is being played. On the few mornings he had been there when he took his son to school, he couldn't hear the P.A, system. He said it wasn't loud. The church and school act in a manner that is very respectful to the neighborhood and to all the neighborhoods that surround the church. Getting back to his wife pulling out of their gate, it takes her no more than one minute to cross the street to get into the church parking area. He thought Sacred Heart, their project, will increase their land property values because of some of the older buildings back there were being torn down. He hated to see them go. His father used to live in one of them. As far as funerals were concemed, his father's funeral was at the church and they didn't :� schedule funerals to coincide with school start or drop off times. � � That would be detrimental to children to see something like that, so it was true what Father Lincoln and others had said about most funerals being at 10:00 a.m. Lighting on the football field, or field area, concerned him. He was a little bothered by Palm Desert High School lights and to have another set of lights out there would interfere a little bit with him, but he thought if there was a reasonabf� time set for the lighting to be turned off there shouldn't be a problem. Although he was in favor of the project, one of the things that concerned him is he didn't want to give up his right to turn left out of his gate onto Deep Canyon. He felt they should open their exit gate which impacts the residents, those 12 houses which they spoke of earlier. But overall he was in favor of the project and hoped that it is done properly and with the thoughtfulness that the residents in the area still need to move around with the traffic congestion that is there. Most of the traffic in the mornings for the school was really not bad. It is the Sunday services which impact � � � 36 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � Deep Canyon and the parking along Deep Canyon and that needed to be addressed. MS. CINDY FARRELI, 7 Curie Court in Rancho Mirage, addressed the Commission. She said she has the good fortune of being the parent of two children that attend Sacred Heart School. The last time she stood at this podium and at this microphone she came asking the City for the permission to put a beautiful clock tower that is now in the Civic Center Park. She asked the City's permission to do that as she stood there as President of the Palm Desert Rotary Club. She has spent countless hours in community service to the city of Palm Desert willingly, grateful to be a part of this community. She couldn't imagine something that serves this community better than Sacred Heart School. Denying this school the opportunity to expand and allow 90 more children to benefit from all of the wonderful things that this parish and school have to offer would be a great mistake. So she echoed the sentiments of those who spoke before her and asked that they consider deeply the request before them tonight and grant Sacred Heart's � request to expand. MS. SUE ETEBAR, 6 Macbeth Court in Rancho Mirage, addressed the Commission. She has two children at Sacred Heart School, Christopher in 4th grade, and a 17-month-old child she was hoping would start preschool sometime this year. They have been in the desert for almost five years, so it is still very new to them, but they have grown to love everything about the desert. The mountains, the people, everyone they have come in contact with had been gracious and kind. They started originally at another school and Sister Joan was gracious enough to let them start mid year because they had some issues they couldn't overcome when her other daughter was in second grade. She said she was born and raised Catholic and kind of ventured away because they all fell asleep at mass and Father Lincoln brought them back because he is such a great speaker. He made them want to come and learn and want to enjoy their faith again. Dr. Brennan had helped them imp�ove and expand the school tremendously in the four years she has been there. She wanted to speak on behalf of everyone else that they really really hope that �... 37 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 the City will allow the expansion because there are so many worse things that could be going into the corner over there than 90 more children and the ability to educate and increase worship and fellowship on the corner over there at Deep Canyon. They just want to support their school and our community. MS. KIMBERLY LYNCH, a parent of five years at Sacred Heart School and a member of the School Board, addressed the Commission. One of the things she said hadn't been mentioned in the discussion of the people for the project is the expansion of the athletic facilities. Her child is in 4th grade at Sacred Heart and they participate as a private school in track meets and things of that nature. The way their children have to presently train for this, they have one area that encompasses for all of their kindergarten through 8th grade and the expansion of this school would allow their children to have the same facilities that it seemed almost every school in this valley has, which is what she wants for her : child. She was very hopeful that they would be able to compete with the rest of the schools by expanding their facilities. Throughout the last two years on a lot of the tv media, one of the things she thought they should all think about is children come first. MS. TERESA WHITE, 170 Paseo Monticello in the Palmira development, addressed the Commission. She said she is new to Palmira, new to Sacred Heart and has children there. Her neighbors have been very open and accepting of them coming to the new neighborhood. Father Lincoln and the Sacred Heart School have welcomed them with open arms. Being in the middle of it, as hard as it is, hopefully they could all love one another and get along and make it all happen for their kids. MS. LAURA CHAVA, 73-373 Country Club Drive in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. She said she moved here almost five years ago. She came from Mexico and had the blessing to have her kids in Sacred Heart School. She said it takes a village to raise kids. If they had this opportunity in the schools in Mexico, and just one word from them could stop this, would be her dream. If they go and visit a school in Mexico, they would see how the kids 38 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15. 2005 � study there. The opportunity they are stopping the school doing this is just unbelievable. She loves this country and is proud to live here. She is a U.S. citizen now and wished the kids of Mexico had this opportunity. There was no one else wishing to speak in favor. Referring to the Request to Speak cards in opposition, Chairperson Jonathan invited Mr. Thomas McCutchen to address the Commission. MR. THOMAS McCUTCHEN, 24 Via Cielo Azul in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. He said he represents the Board of Directors from the Palmira Homeowners Association. Even though he marked his card as opposed, the Board of Directors wanted to make it clear that the Palmira Homeowners Association supports the Sacred Heart parish expansion and improvements as long as it's done with the surrounding neighborhood taken into consideration and their recommendations have been taken into consideration. � It was their understanding that the traffic study was to cover a much larger area to include the elementary, middle schools and Palm Desert High School in their area, as well as the Sacred Heart School. He believed the minutes referred to from Portola to Cook and from Fred Waring over to Hovley when they were here in August. This apparently was not done based on the traffic study he was provided. This information is based on the Planning Commission minutes back in August of 2004. It appears that the study concentrated on the intersection of Fred Waring Drive and Deep Canyon down to Moss Rose, and Fred Waring Drive down to Florine. That is the whole content of this study. It was his understanding that Sacred Heart selected the traffic study company without any joint effort with the City Planning Department, as suggested in the Commission's minutes. Also, the traffic study has a number of misspelled words, typos and some false assumptions. Based on that, he really questioned the validity and accuracy of the study. For instance, the study said that the 12 duplexes that the church : owns generates approximately 105 daily trips in and out of La Paz � 39 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 complex when nine of those 12 duplexes have been unoccupied for some time, according to Father Lincoln. And since this was used as a senior, low cost housing project for seniors from the : parish, he found it pretty amazing that it would generate 105 daily trips of seniors in and out of 24 units. Also, they equated the average number of contribution envelopes between January and the last Sunday before Easter in 2004 to a Sunday in September saying that the envelopes increased by about 25%; therefore, their conclusion was that the traffic and parking needs should also, or did increase 25% during the five months of the season in the desert. They know that everyone who attends do not use a contribution envelope every week. Some contribute monthly, some contribute quarterly, some do not contribute to this church and continue to support their parishes from wherever they come from during the summer months. How do contribution envelopes and traffic and parking equate? He thought it was (ike comparing apples to oranges. Plus their figures contradict that projection based on the last two weekend masses. He said he laid on their tables this evening the last two weekends of the traffic study. They went to all eight masses and rode up and down on their bikes Deep Canyon, Florine, in and out through all of the parking lots that are provided by the church and on Saturday at the 4:00 p.m. mass, on Saturday the 5th and Saturday the 12th of February there were 198 and 215 cars either parked on these streets or illegally parked in the church parking lot. He found it amazing that 40 and 55 cars were parked in the fire lane and the City has done nothing to stop that. That was just on a Saturday afternoon. At the later mass on Saturday, there were 38 and 35 parked along the street. There were 93 and 88 parking spaces still available in the church parking lot and even five of those on one Saturday were in the fire lanes, so it certainly appeared to be that there is no one monitoring where these people park and when they park. : On Sunday, the 9:30 to 10:00 a.m. mass was the worst offense again. There were 235 and 144 parked along the Deep Canyon, Moss Rose, Florine and Aster in addition to 33 and 41 parked in 40 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � the fire lanes. Again, illegal parking. On the two Sundays at 1 1 :00 a.m., in one case there were 41 cars parked in the fire lanes. If there was a major disaster or major need to get emergency equipment in there, it would be almost impossible to get them in and out of there. So this to him refuted a lot of what the study says that it is only 25%. They need many more than the 155 parking spots, especially with 77 being on grass areas and not marked off. There was no way they would ever get 77 cars parked in there unless they had somebody standing there making them pull up very close to the car before them. So that was something he thought needed to be looked at. He wanted to talk about some of their recommendations and solutions for conditions of approval for this project. The first recommendation, as he just talked about, was that the church needed to add more off-street parking and plan for it in the master plan. He referred to his chart. They heard there were 158 new spaces, 77 on the overflow grass area. There was also a note on the master plan that talked about reduced parking area C when � phase two or phase three is built, but they didn't indicate how many parking spaces they were losing there. That whole area that would be the new plaza is currently parked up both sides on Saturday night and Sunday morning, so there's some difference of opinion there in terms of the kind of parking spaces that are going to be provided. In addition to all the cars parked along Deep Canyon, all of those cars and in some cases on the east side, there were 39, 20, 28, and 25. On one Sunday there were 61 cars parked on the east side of Deep Canyon. All of these people are jaywalking across during a heavy traffic time, which is very dangerous, especially for the elderly that are walking across there. He thought it was also illegal to jaywalk in our city. Secondly, he understood that the City Planning Department is recommending two pork-chop driveways, right-in and right-out, fo� the existing two driveways south of the church. He had been talking about that with the Church and with the Planning Department since they met last August and they finally came to an agreement that might help solve some of the problem. But their � 41 ' MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � concern is that their entrance driveway, their only entrance and exit driveway, will not become a U-turn for all the parents coming to get their kids into school, to pull in and pull around through their entrance so they can turn left going out of their complex and turn right into the church parking lot. Also, if they didn't do that they would go just beyond their driveway, make a U-turn and come back so they could turn right into the parking lot. "No U-turn" signs must be posted along the east side of Deep Canyon, making it illegal to make a U-turn if this condition is going to be accepted. They also recommend that the church and school hire off-duty policemen to direct traffic in and out of the parking lots and to insure that all fire lanes are not blocked. This worked well in traffic control for the significance in increased traffic last Wednesday for Ash Wednesday at the 7:30 a.m. mass. He didn't know if they were on-duty or off-duty policemen, but they were uniformed in police cars out directing traffic in the middle of Deep Canyon. This helped get the traffic in and get the traffic out much much faster than he was sure it would have been with the overflow. He didn't get all the numbers of that morning, but they were parked practically down to Magnesia Falls on Deep Canyon. And on both sides of Florine they were parked all the way down to the rectory, which is at the very end of Florine. He said all of our public schools have school crossing guards to help the kids get safely across intersections. Why not have the same to make sure that the cars bringing and picking up kids from school and church are safe as well? They recommend that all activities scheduled for the parish hall and the gym be completed before 10:00 p.m. Sunday through Friday nights and 1 1 :00 p.m. on Saturday nights. He understood that the Planning Department was recommending this as part of their recommendations. He knew that Father Lincoln was concerned that cleanup crews and that type of thing might be there a little later. They are saying the event should be over by 10:00 p.m. If he has cleanup crews and whatever after that is necessary, the party shouldn't go on until 1 1 :00 p.m. or 1 1 :30 p.m. if it's Sunday through Thursday or Friday night and then Saturday night, the same thing after 1 1 :00 p.m. 42 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 �.. Chairperson Jonathan pointed out that he was giving Mr. McCutchen some substantial leeway in terms of the three-minute limit because he was representing an association, but the Commission had his letter, they had the 14 items and Mr. McCutchen was on number five, and they have had the benefit of reading his letter, including the staff responses and applicant responses, so they were familiar with these issues. Rather than reiterating all of them, he suggested that Mr. McCutchen hit the highlights or just the major points of his opinion in the matter. Mr. McCutchen explained that the sound system is one of the things they have had several complaints about. He has been called at his home with complaints of loud music, both sacred and non- sacred music, coming from the church grounds, including the school. This was coming at 7:45 in the morning. Father Lincoln said he didn't know anything about it, denied it for quite a while, because he called him right after their annual meeting last October and told him this. They talked about it several times since. But two weeks ago he went out about 7:45 a.m. and there was disco music coming out of the school. It certainly sounded like disco; it � certainly wasn't sacred music coming out of the school or the church and he called Father Lincoln. Father Lincoln called him back and said yes, now that he changed the mass to 7:45 a.m., it interfered with the mass, so that would stop immediately. So that was the first time that had even been admitted that it was happening. They asked that the City limit the school amount, the number of students, to what they've requested now. Plus, he thought there was an additional one or two added to that, but this would allow for 93 additional students to be added to the current enrollment. It was their concern that the church attendance will also continue to increase with all the new homes being built in the area. This was not addressed in the study at all. Also, as more parishioners attend mass and the church is filled to capacity, Father Lincoln has indicated in several meetings he had with him that the parish hall would be used as an overflow, especially on holiday weekends. The other thing that was not considered in the traffic study was _ the increased use of the church facilities with the addition of a 17,000 square foot parish hall and gym. As various activities are .... 43 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 scheduled into this facility like dinners, fund raisers and other sundry types of evening events, this would continue to add to the parking and traffic woes of all the surrounding neighborhoods. With the addition of the parish hall and its continued use in the afternoon and evenings, this would add considerably more traffic than the neighborhood is currently used to having and along with that goes the additional noise. None of this was addressed in the traffic study. Mr. McCutchen said that Father Lincoln has said in the past that this parish hall would be used only three or four times a year for main events. But this does not consider several hundred to 1 ,000 or more people at a main event evidently, because he has 6,000 to 7,000 parishioners on a weekend according to his quotes in the paper. Father Lincoln may certainly not want to use this parish hall because it takes up a lot of his time, but the next priest that is assigned to this parish may have different ideas and they would like something in the conditions that do limit this time and the growth there. One of the things they heard for the first time tonight was that the parish hall was going to be 35 feet high. He specifically asked this group in August if the 24 feet, which was all they were admitting to at that time, was within the limits required or if that required some sort of a variance. They were told very specifically that the 24 feet was within the limits of the area for the zoning ordinance. Now all of a sudden this is the first time, six or seven months later, they are hearing that the building has now grown to 35 feet. They are opposed to a 35-foot building across the streets from their residences. One of the other things they requested, and the City has given the Commission an opinion on, is the no turn on red from westbound Fred Waring to northbound Deep Canyon. They felt that if that could be instituted, this would give their residents at least a minute or so of no traffic coming down Fred Waring going northbound so they would have an opportunity to get out safely. That's their concern. 44 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � Finally, they feel very strongly that a driveway off of Florine into the church parking lot should be added. He knew this had come up before the Council numerous times before. The residents of Florine spoke very loudly. Now they've got 238 or 250 something homes on the east side of Deep Canyon that are now speaking saying they need some relief there. They have five driveways coming out of the church parking lot with the new one added that will be sending traffic out on Deep Canyon and none on Florine. They thought that was totally unacceptable. So they as the Board of Directors of the Palmira Estates Homeowners Association were hoping these concerns and suggested solutions would receive their utmost consideration and would be approved as conditions for the approval of this site plan. MR. DANA CARNES, 43-550 Palmilla Circle in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. He heard an awful lot about the traffic control on the east side of Deep Canyon and very little about the people on the west side. First of all, he was in favor of the growth ;�, of the church. He thought it was a wonderful idea, a good concept, but he was quite concerned about the traffic control around the church. Since the expansion or the changes on Fred Waring, anybody that's coming in and out of the west side of the church that's trying to make an east destination has to use Deep Canyon in order to continue to go east and turn on the two lanes they have there on Deep Canyon onto the eastbound section of Fred Waring. � Or the alternative is to cut across three lanes of Fred Waring to go up to the Portola intersection and make a U-turn or drive clear over to Portola and drive around the corner to head eastbound on Fred Waring. With the increase of the children there, his concern was they could deal with this at this time, but what happens in the future? Right now the classes are overloaded or have 30 children in each class. When the classes are dropped back down to 15, 20, whatever they have in their classes, and as the church grows again and continues to grow, will these classes grow to 30 again and will the increase in traffic even pick up more? � 45 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 :� The traffic control study they asked for back in August to be done in October and November was to allow the City to take a look at the "snowbirds" increasing the traffic flow along Fred Waring. Unknowing to them, Fred Waring decided to make the traffic changes on the east side of Deep Canyon, which caused even more of a chaos during that time of study that was supposed to be taking place. Why it took place in September, they didn't know. They knew the church was starting their school time in August and again, they were looking for the additional traffic they were anticipating which usually shows up in November. So his biggest concern is what will happen in the future with traffic. Will it continue to grow? If it is, it is already a problem and if it continues to grow into a bigger problem, what are they going to do about it? MR. MURRAY QUANCE, 22 Via Cielo Azul, addressed the Commission. He s�id he's a member of the Palmira Homeowners Association. He wanted to speak regarding the long-term plans for � Sacred Heart. He thought the short-term issues had been well „� documented. His concern primarily relates, as one of his neighbors mentioned, their major issue is Saturday and Sunday. He has heard that Father Lincoln has initiated a viability study with the Diocese to close down Church of the Desert. As they might be aware, it is located at San Pablo and Fred Waring. If this should happen, they would have additional traffic at Sacred Heart from their 300 or so parishioners that would most likely attend Sacred Heart. There was a town hall meeting in December and he was informed that the Diocese is considering its closure. MR. JERRY HAFFLEY, 74-573 Moss Rose Drive in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. He stated that he is not opposed to the expansion of the school. It's a good thing. However, the second gate, this north entry or north exit gate onto Moss Rose was a concern to him. It has been mentioned that it only affects 12 homes. That wasn't true. Moss Rose is currently used for traffic from Lantana, Canyon Crest development, including all the people who live on Moss Rose. There's a tremendous amount of � traffic from that road already. To open up the north gate for the `� Palmira residents to exit and use Moss Rose as an exit to get out 46 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � onto Deep Canyon would tremendously impact the residents of Moss Rose, Lantana, and Canyon Crest that already use that street for transportation. So he was really opposed to opening up that north gate. He had a petition from everybody on Moss Rose that was available to sign it. Chairperson Jonathan asked if that was the City's copy. Mr. Haffley said yes and submitted it as part of the record. MR. PAUL SHILLCOCK, 74-582 Moss Rose Drive in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. Like Mr. Haffley, he wasn't present in opposition to the project. He didn't oppose education or religion. He thought it was a good thing. It was a quality of life thing for the community. He did have a letter, which he said he would submit to the Commission secretary to become part of the formal record, but he wasn't going to use any of his three minutes to go ��, through the information in that. He would leave that for them to read. He would rather take the time to share some of his thoughts about the project. One aspect of it that was brought up tonight was that when Palmira was first seeking entitlements that there was a decision made that the north gate would not be used for anything but emergency purposes. Things haven't changed for the better since Palmira was put in. Canyon Crest was completed; Lantana was completed; there are some 120 homes as a minimum that use Moss Rose Drive as their access. Quoting from traffic engineering documents, those homes generate somewhere between 1 ,200 and 2,600 trips per day. An average single family home generating somewhere between 10 and 22 trips per day. So there was a lot of traffic on Moss Rose right now. So he had a problem with the gate being used in addition to the main gate that was designed to be the main access and that's what he was really opposed to tonight. All of them that live here chose Palm Desert for one reason or another as a place to live. Not necessarily, and certainly not in his �.., 47 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � case, for convenience to his workplace and that was the same case for his neighbors. Most of them work in Palm Springs, Rancho Mirage or a bunch like him work in Cathedral City. They chose Palm Desert for one reason and that was quality of life, and they pay a premium for that, but this City has always protected the quality of life of its citizens. What they would be doing by opening up that gate is negatively impacting the quality of life for the people who live on Moss Rose Drive. It was mentioned by one of the gentlemen in support that there are people, he guessed those opposed, who could be likened to the people who move out by an airport and then complain about the airport noise. That wasn't the case with people on Moss Rose Drive. They all bought when the development, except for several of them, when the developments were complete and they knew what the traffic was. They knew that Lantana would use Moss Rose as their only entrance and they accept that. They weren't there complaining about the existing situation. What they have here is a situation where the airport is being built near their neighborhood. He tried to figure out exactly what the problem was that resulted in discussion about opening the second gate. He has lived there four years and he knew, and it was verified by the traffic study, that there is a problem on Sunday mornings. It was mentioned here tonight in favor of the project that one gentleman in particular can go from Palmira into the parking lot of the church on any given day in less than a minute. The traffic study indicated that Sunday morning is a problem and City staff indicated that Saturday evening, which also to him was somewhat of an issue, is not unusual and indicated that a one-minute wait to cross at a uncontrolled intersection was not unusual. So what they've come down to is apparently a problem with Sunday morning. He knew all of them had been here long enough to remember a former Community Development Director in the City who had a truism for most situations and one that he quoted very often is that they don't design the church parking lot to accommodate >� Easter Sunday crowds. What it appeared they were doing here by changing the traffic pattern to address a situation that exists for 48 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � a couple of hours on Sunday morning to him was designing the church parking lot for Easter Sunday crowds. What he was asking, and it turned out in the discussion that it was going to be like the ultimate if nothing else worked, but then it changed in Condition No. 23. What he was asking was that the condition that the church work with Palmira to open that gate be eliminated. (He then submitted his letter.) MR. STEVE ROOS, 74-489 Myrsine Avenue, addressed the Commission. He stated that his property is directly north of the church and behind him is Deep Canyon. He agreed with Mr. McCutchen on almost all of his comments, but specifically he wanted to address the traffic study that he felt was woefully inadequate and it really sounded like more of a whitewash of the whole traffic problem in that area. Also, many of the folks who spoke in favor of the project don't live in the neighborhood, so they are coming in, dropping off or picking up, and then they are gone, so they aren't living with the problem every day. While he �,,,, was sure that Sacred Heart School is a wonderful school, he didn't think in its proposed expanded form that it belonged in this neighborhood. MRS. JULIE ROOS, 74-489 Myrsine Avenue, addressed the Commission. She stated that she is pro private school. She went to St. Theresa's herself and put five kids through the Learning Tree. So she could appreciate a private education. She, too, felt that the property is too small for all that school, but there's another issue that hasn't been mentioned. The City, and she thought it came right after they did major flood control in the area, there was a total wall across their neighborhood and because there's a gutter about five or six feet across between two of their houses, the kids walk through there. Now they took the wall down so it's really easy. They don't even have to duck under the wall. They are jaywalking, even though it's only maybe 30 feet to the corner and they could go through a cross walk and with the way the traffic is, it would be a street wide before long, it had to be. It was just ridiculous. So they run across Deep Canyon. She sure hoped that a child didn't have to be killed before they did something about it. �.. 49 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 MR. LEWIS GORDON, 43-551 Palmilla Circle in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. He pointed out the location of his residence. He said it was two and a half football fields from the P.A. system they have now and he hears that P.A. system in the morning. For people to say they walk on-site and not hear it was incorrect. Also, anyone that can drive from the Palmira gate straight across into the parking lot is making an unsafe decision. He drives that every day, several times a day, and to shoot from Palmira during peak traffic hours into that parking lot straight across the street was a very unsafe move. MR. DAVID TARRATUTA, 24 Via Cielo Azul in Palmira, stated that he read through the traffic study. He's not an engineer, he isn't a statistician, so when he sees lots of numbers it just confuses him. But he did want to comment on the traffic study. It appeared to him that this traffic study came up with no new solutions other than to open up Palmira's back gate to solve all the traffic problems on Deep Canyon is how he interpreted it. ':� There were recommendations in the traffic study that basically ,,,,� they will monitor the internal parking and stuff and see if it works. The reality is they don't monitor it. They have 40 plus cars redline parking on weekends for three out of eight masses. They aren't going to self monitor. He was raised in Catholic education, elementary, college and graduate school. It makes him who he is and he believed in it. He thought this traffic study was short- sighted and did not encompass as much as he thought was recommended. It is a band-aid approach. He worked in parishes and was part of a church expansion. He has priest friends who have done rectories, churches, parking lots and parish halls. This study did not include any impact about how many hundreds more cars they would have utilizing that parish hall. This parish needs to do a 25-year study to find out how much they need to expand. They need to consider all the options. Move the parish hall away so they can have increased parking. They need 150 minimum paved parking to handle standard traffic during peak time, December through April, five months, almost half the year. There was over parking. ,� 50 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � Some of the recommendations of the Planning Department were to have Mr. McCutchen approach Father Lincoln to see if they could work out some of these issues. He didn't remember specifically because they just got some of their recommendations. It wasn't an individual's responsibility to approach a developer. This was big business church. There were 6,000 to 7,000 people on a weekend. Individuals were not going to approach the leader of this spiritual community and ask them to try things. They did that. He had been in Palmira two years and moved from Rancho Mirage. He liked Palmira and Palm Desert. But they did approach Father Lincoln about getting the parking off of Deep Canyon illegally. They were parked from the red light to the Palmira entrance for years and they approached him. Did he announce it? Did he put no entrance on those entrances so they wouldn't be going in there or parking there? Those were inexpensive solutions. They were not used. He questioned how sincere Father Lincoln's motivation was for working with the entire neighborhood. And yet he supported � Father Lincoln in building this spiritual community. He was raised in a Catholic community. He didn't think these figures were legitimate and he didn't think they would solve the problem. He thought Father Lincoln needed to consider all the options. Move the junior high somewhere else. Move the parish hall somewhere else. He knew the ideal was to have them all in one place, but this study didn't address that. He noted that Deep Canyon is marked as golf cart and bike path on both sides. Why would the City approve that and then allow the church to park up both sides year round? Because it wasn't just the peak five-month season that Deep Canyon is parked on, so golf carts and bikes have to go out into the street. Either don't mark it or redline both sides. The ideal is to get all the parking off Deep Canyon. It's a busy enough road as it is. There's plenty of land space to have all the parking on the parish grounds. The track. He didn't know of any entity that has a track that they are going to use fo� phys. ed. for their kids. His suspicion was, and it wasn't a suspicion, there's going to be a Catholic High School. : That's been in the newspaper. This will be a feeder. They are �,.. 51 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � going to want competitive track sports. That's fine; he had no problem with that. The question that would come up is if it's going to be after school and how late it will all run and how much it's going to interfere. He just put that out there for thought. Those were the primary things he thought the Council needed to consider in terms of looking at more options. What seemed to be the focus tonight is that if they deal with Palmira, everything else is okay. That's not the focus. The study was supposed to be much bigger. That doesn't solve the increased traffic because of the parish hall. He knew because he worked in a parish. They were going to utilize that building to the maximum. Retreats, wedding receptions, funeral luncheons, whatever they can, and he didn't begrudge the parish for doing that. He didn't think this was realistic. He supported the expansion and wanted it approved as long as they improve and maintain their property. It is good for the neighborhood, but it has to be a more thought out, bigger picture expansion. They should consider moving some of their activities � elsewhere. � MR. CHARLES INDERW!ESCHE, 74-484 Myrsine Avenue, addressed the Commission. He stated that his house also backs up to Deep Canyon. He believed that the City really needed to do another traffic study. He took some photos of some of the traffic they have backed up to his house every weekend. He submitted them for distribution and said that was all he had to say. MS. MARGARET GERTZ, 74-457 Myrsine in Palm Desert, addressed the Commission. She said she's to the north of the property, right at the beginning of the football field there. She has two concerns. The first would be the outdoor lighting. She would like to make sure that at no time outdoor lighting could be erected around the field. The other is also limiting the broadcast system, whether it is P.A, or some other source. Sometimes they do hear it very late at night and it was very disturbing. She's up at about 4:00 a.m. or 5:00 a.m., so she's in bed at 9:00 p.m. and it can be very disturbing. She thought the traffic issues had been addressed and agreed with most of the comments made. 52 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � Chairperson Jonathan asked if the applicant would like to readdress the Commission. Father Lincoln agreed that there would be no lighting at all on the field. The idea of the expansion of the school was to add additional classrooms, but to reduce the size of the classes. So for example, K through three they are talking about 25. Four through eight they would top at 30 and that is the reason they are expanding the school. They are only adding approximately 93 students. In terms of the parking, they have a total of 588 parking places. If he was correct, if they need one parking place for every three people, they are providing parking for 400 more people than their church even holds. In terms of Christ of the Desert, he is also the pastor of Christ of the Desert. It is true that they asked for a viability study. The church council met on that three weeks ago and while they are keeping the parish, they are going to suppress it as a parish, but make it a mission of Sacred Heart and that changes nothing. It's � still the number of masses there. It's just a canonical difference. So Christ of the Desert remains. He said it is true that people park all over. He is a priest. He loves what he does and he tries to get as many people to church as possible. The reason they are adding all this parking is to alleviate people parking in fire zones and people parking in the street. They are providing, as the City has said, abundant parking for the seating of their church. In terms of the church expanding and the people attending it, they are pretty much at capacity now. At 4:00 p.m. on Sunday they can take no more. At 9:30 a.m. on Sunday, during the season, they can take no more. At 1 1 :00 a.m., sometimes, half the time, they can take no more. So he didn't anticipate a great number of more people coming to the church. He was reluctant to say how many times they would use the parish hall at night, but it certainly wouldn't be every night that they would have 500 or 1 ,000 people there. There isn't enough of him to go around to do that, but they need a parish hall for their children, for a gym, and for their parishioners as well. Basically right now they have no parish � 53 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � hall at all. It is true that people park in the street, even when there is room in the parking lot, and that is because they have some very elderly people and they cannot walk from the very end of the parking lot near Florine and Fred Waring all the way to the church when they can park very close to the church itself on Deep Canyon. They simply can't walk that far. He said they don't play non-sacred music, but it is true they have had music there at 7:45 and 8:00 a.m. They're a school and sometimes that music is played. It is true that he told Mr. McCutchen he didn't recognize there was music until they were celebrating a mass and in the middle of mass there was this music. He thought in deference to the community they would have stopped anyway, but he did not know there was music. He said one of the reasons they want to expand this school is their responsibility to, and in their opinion the most precious of God's creation, and those are kids and he believed they served the � greater community. For example, while it is only the first semester of Palm Desert High School, he believed there are 20 kids that are tied for first place with a perfect grade point average of 4.99. Of that 20 five graduated last year from Sacred Heart. Currently the number one physics student in the entire student body, nine through 12 at Palm Desert, is a freshman. She has the highest grade in physics for the entire school and she was a graduate last year of Sacred Heart. He believed the number one student in the junior class is a graduate of Sacred Heart and the number one student in the sE:nior class is a graduate of Sacred Heart. So they take that responsibility extremely seriously and, therefore, it was their hope that they would approve this so they can continue that responsibility they have to their children. He trusted that answered most of the things that were brought up. Chairperson Jonathan closed the public hearing and asked the Commission for comments. He stated that he would make an opening remark and it probably didn't need to be said because most people understood it, but they weren't there to address the desirability of religion or of Catholicism, children or education. He hoped they all understood that wasn't the issue here. When they heard people discussing some of the impacts to the neighborhood and to traffic and to 54 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � their neighbors, he hoped they kept that in mind. They weren't there to oppose religion, to oppose children; they were there to deal with the impact on the neighborhood, which they would deal with whether this was a church, a synagogue, a store, an office or whatever. They were here to deal with the impacts, not the underlying use of the property in terms of its desirability in our community or in society. Commissioner Finerty noted that they heard a lot of people in opposition to the project speak to the traffic study being woefully inadequate, not covering enough of an area and she asked Mr. Greenwood for his opinion. Mr. Greenwood explained that the purpose of a traffic study is not to just satisfy, that's part of the issue, to satisfy staff that the technical issues have been met. The more important aspect to that is to address the community's concerns. They have been working with the architect on this and asked them to have their traffic engineer present so that he could hear the community's concerns and address them. The engineer wasn't here tonight, so there might be more work to do on the traffic study if that is what the community and the Planning Commission thought. If that's what the Planning Commission thought, then more � study might need to be done. Commissioner Finerty asked Mr. Greenwood if in his opinion, he felt the traffic study should have encompassed a greater area. Mr. Greenwood didn't think a greater area would have helped anything. All of the people who expressed their concerns lived relatively within the area that was the focus of the study. They didn't have people present from the Primrose, , Portola or Magnesia Falls area. All the people here were in the area studied. So he didn't think studying a wider area would help. He thought addressing the concerns that were brought up was a critical aspect of this. Commissioner Finerty asked if he had any other suggestions from his knowledge and experience that could help address these concerns other than what has appeared in the conditions of approval. She asked if there was something that could have been looked at that wasn't. Mr. Greenwood said that potentially, he didn't think the parking issue had been fully explored. He had a chance to go by this site recently on weekends and was surprised how impacted the neighborhood was with parking spilling over from the church. He didn't think the grass parking area was the answer to that. If they put parking on grass at least three � 55 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � weekends in a row, that grass would turn to dust. He didn't think a grass temporary parking area was the solution. He thought it needed to be explored further. He stated that he wanted to clarify something that the architect pointed out. The completion of Aztec Road wasn't a Desert Sands project. It was a City of Palm Desert project and we dragged our partners through that project. Commissioner Finerty thanked him for his comments. Commissioner Finerty said that she really appreciated everyone taking the time to come out and the civil way they conducted themselves. She understood that there was passion on each side. She could relate somewhat to what Palmira HOA is going through. She, too, is president of her homeowner's association at Desert Breezes and they live right across the street from Southwest Community Church. They had their share of traffic and PA systems. She could understand what they were going through. She also knew that working with the church and having a cooperative body to deal with the issues that the homeowners bring forward could make all the difference and could go a long way to making � it a nice project for all. � A number of people spoke about the greater good. And that was the side she came down on because she believed the greater good is served by allowing the project to go through and trying to put in as many mitigation measures to help with the residents in Palmira. It is true, as pointed out, that Sacred Heart was there and then other developments came in. So everyone that lives in that area knew about the traffic problem. Where her concern was, was in trying to get in the best mitigation measures from a traffic study. She wasn't convinced that this particular study had done that and she believed Mr. Greenwood alluded to that in his comments. She believed that the area that will be used for overflow recreational areas that would be grass should definitely be paved. She thought that area would be used at least for five months out of the season in the peak times and that the grass would look terrible and would be an eyesore if cars were allowed to just continue to park on grass. She wasn't certain what other parking situations and mitigation measures could be explored. She would be interested in Mr. Greenwood's direction 56 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � in that area and perhaps would suggest and ask City staff to meet with the traffic engineer who prepared the traffic study and see what other areas they could look at to try and mitigate it for most homeowners. She was opposed to opening Moss Rose Drive. She thought it was a quality of life issue and most everyone who bought there knew full well of the traffic problem. With regard to staggering the times, she thought it was simpler to adjust the mass time as has been done. Therefore, it wasn't a hardship on any of the parents. The sound system, as stated by Dr. Brennan, is needed for emergency purposes and announcements. She knew from experience that a sound system could be made to work with the experience she'd had with the Southwest Community Church's sound system. Again, it was the cooperation that was needed. Finally, she was in favor of the project. She was looking for staff, specifically the City Traffic Engineer, to work with Sacred Heart's engineer in trying to address parking solutions over and above paving that recreational area. �, Chairperson Jonathan said that with the Jewish Community Center application, Commissioner Finerty spoke rather forcefully against an exception to the 24-foot height limitation and he didn't hear her comment on that tonight. Commissioner Finerty said she forgot to mention that. Referring to her notes, she said she heard that the applicant was willing to come down to 33 feet. As she was looking at the roof, she could see where the 24- foot level was and it was a rather small area. She believed what she spoke forcefully against was the tower for the Jewish Federation Center not being appropriate, but she believed the record would show that she didn't speak against the gymnasium height. She believed that was warranted. As explained by the architect, this also kept it in concert with the pitched roof similar to the existing property. With the Jewish Community Center, there was nothing existing. Commissioner Tschopp shared Commissioner Finerty's concems with the traffic study. He, too, thought it was inadequate. His concern was that it was inadequate because there weren't any easy solutions. They truly had a successful church here in our community that has been there a long time sandwiched between several schools, a high school with a high �.. 57 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � traffic volume and loud noise. Then there was a middle school down the road that feeds the main artery that feeds this church. So although he had a concern with the traffic study, he didn't know what the solutions would be except they have a lot of people moving into the desert who want to go to certain places and in areas that might not be all that conducive to traffic. He said he liked the idea of the church expanding. He did have concerns with the parking. Although the church meets the ordinance and codes for parking requirements, it is a very successful organization and should be complimented on it, but in the same vein it didn't meet the needs. The need was for greater amounts of parking. He, too, would like to see that looked at a little deeper. He thought there were some safety issues that needed to be addressed. One was the parking on the east side of Deep Canyon and the people walking across the street. He used to live in that area and it was unsafe on Sunday mornings and late Saturday night when people were coming out of church. He thought that was an issue that should be addressed. � He also thought that any organization that creates traffic problems, be it ' for good purposes, should be willing to take steps to help mitigate and keep the safety of the people going to those programs at the foremost. He wanted to see a condition put into the approval that the church, if it is decided by the Palm Desert Chief of Police or the equivalent that there is a safety issue there, that they will employ and pay for a policeman to direct t�affic during those high volume traffic times. He thought that was an issue that could be done through the Palm Desert Safety Commission and through the Police C;hief. He thought that Moss Rose should be opened. He wasn't a big fan of gates and if they looked at these very similar contiguous developments, to have an exit there onto Moss Rose might mitigate some of the concerns or problems people were having getting out at certain times and not create any really undue heavy traffic more than a couple of times a week, if at all. The problem they all had with this is that if it's a problem now, it will be a problem in the future whether they did nothing now and let it be the way it is. If this project didn't go forward, they would still have a problem there. He thought the church was trying to make some steps 58 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � here to try and correct it. He just didn't know if they had quite looked at all the ways to correct it. Not being a traffic engineer, he also heard one of the people in the audience speak about a no U-turn sign on Deep Canyon and he could see where that would be a safety issue and should also be looked at. Regarding noise, he believed a school/a church of this magnitude would need a way to communicate times and events to the people on the campus, but he believed that noise level should conform to the decibel levels applied to a residential neighborhood. And they do have new sound systems and technology that can do that. They can put in sound systems with speakers in a place that will keep the sound level down and on the campus. He thought that could be done and it could be monitored. He was in favor of the expansion, he wasn't convinced on the parking study, but he didn't know if they spent a lot more time on the traffic study they would come up with better answers. The truth of the matter is it is a very busy quadrant in Palm Desert that has some very peak periods of time that will not be mitigated unless they build freeways in �, that area, and he didn't think they were going to do that for the peak periods that occur. Commissioner Campbell stated that she was also in favor of the expansion. Being there every Sunday, she sees a parking problem. They couldn't blame Father Lincoln for being so popular. Everybody just likes to go to church there because they have a good time and they come out there. Older people do park in the red zones in the parking lot, so they knew there was a parking problem and a circulation problem. In the new area for the overflow grass area, she agreed that it should be paved and a regular parking lot. When the new parish hall was built, there would be less parking. The duplexes that are there that were going to be retained, possibility in the near future those might be demolished and those areas might be used for additional parking. As far as the Palmira residents, the school has been there for many years. The Palmira area was empty. People with children chose that place to live because it would be closer to the school. The other residents without children that are older knew they would be living in an area between schools. She noted that traffic is a lot better now that Palm Desert High School has Aztec Road. Before the traffic was even worse. � 59 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � � � � As far as a lot of the parking along Deep Canyon, some of the residents that live north of the school were complaining that they do have a lot of cars parked along there. It wasn't their front yards. The wall was probably eight feet high there, so they weren't actually seeing those cars. Yes, there is a problem with the parking. Hopefully Mr. Greenwood and the City staff would work with Father Lincoln, the church, and the engineer to see if they can do something with regard to that. Commissioner Lopez thanked everyone for attending. What they had experienced was a process they take very seriously and even though it may be perceived that they attempt to throw up some obstacles, it wasn't really obstacles. It was an understanding and clarification from their standpoint so they can come up with the best decision. That was part of the planning process. He was a big proponent of churches and schools in the middle of a community. It's an anchor and part of the culture of our town and our communities and he thought it was a very important part of our � community. He thought Sacred Heart should be commended for doing an ,,,� outstanding job of not only growing, but also inviting more and more parishioners to the church and building to the school. This expansion is something that is needed to accommodate both those situations. The concerns were the need to carefully monitor the parking situation as it exists during the peak times, but also the traffic during the peak times. He thought it was necessary, with �II due respect, that the team and staff at the church needed to start taking a little more responsibility on a parking management program for the church. There was just so much the City could do. They needed to start taking some of the responsibility on their own to have the parishioners to at least make every effort to keep the fire lanes open to utilize proper etiquette as it pertains to those high volume time frames. That said, he thought it was important to do a couple of things. In the staff report there was a recommendation that the hours be extended to 1 1 :00 p.m. on Friday and Saturday night, but the condition read 10:00 p.m. on Friday and 11 :00 p.m. on Saturday. He thought they should change it to 1 1 :00 p.m. on both nights so they can facilitate fund raisers for the church. They all knew it wouldn't happen every weekend; five or � w� 60 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � six times a year would probably be a lot. There was only so much fund raising and so much spaghetti. He also thought there was a need for the sound system to be able to communicate adequately with the students, but also during times of a fire alarm or an emergency. He thought that needed to be monitored and they have ordinances to that effect regarding the level of sound. They needed to have input from the residents, as well as the school, working together to make sure it works. Overall he was in favor of the project. He thought it addressed a need and was an important part of our community and he was in favor of it. Chairperson Jonathan also thanked and commended everyone for taking time out of their busy personal lives to share with them their concerns. They could witness the process that takes place there twice a month. They often have competing needs and objectives. The applicant, in this case the Church, has a desire, a need, a goal, an objective, and other residents in the neighborhood have their own needs. So the �, Commission's challenge was to find a way, if at all possible, to meet everyone's needs. That is the process everyone was helping them with tonight and he thanked them for that. He didn't think he heard anyone tonight that was opposed to the church, the school or even opposed to the expansion. So he didn't think that was the issue before them. So the issue was how to mitigate the effects, the consequences of that growth. He thought there were ways to do that. The applicant himself brought some of those solutions and the staff did a wonderful job in bringing forth some solutions. Regarding the sound system, he was initially opposed before he heard testimony. He now understood the need for the sound system and was in favor because it was needed for the school. He suggested that in Department of Community Development Condition No. 1 1 that they allow the sound system, within the acceptable decibel standards, but limit the use of the sound system to school hours. That would prevent fears in the neighborhood that there was going to be outdoor concerts and so forth at 1 1 :00 p.m. on a Saturday night or Friday night. � 61 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � The height of the Parish Hall and gymnasium presented an issue for him because he thought whenever they allow inconsistencies, they open themselves and the City to criticisms and favoritism. He thought in a very similar application that faced a major thoroughfare rather than being fully surrounded by neighborhood, they were pretty adamant at limiting the height of buildings, tower elements and so forth. He saw that they were being asked to grant a significant exception to the 24-foot height limit by going nearly 50% beyond that to 35 feet. He didn't have a problem with that. He thought he heard very little opposition, so he thought it was warranted. His concern was the inconsistency. So in allowing it for this project, he personally would urge the City Council to revisit its limitation with regard to the Jewish Community Center and take the initiative to contact those fine people and tell them that apparently we have a new precedent and they may wish to reconsider. So with regard to this application, he didn't have a problem with granting the exception to the height limit. � The Parish Hall hours, he thought the Department of Community Development Condition No. 10 needed to be modified, assuming the Planning Commission agreed, with Sunday through Thursday to 10:00 ,� p.m. and Friday and Saturday to 1 1 :00 p.m. The final issue was traffic. Like his fellow commissioners, he was disappointed in the traffic study. He thought it fell short, although staff was more subtle about it, he thought they would agree they have a right to expect more from the study. But as Commissioner Tschopp said, they could study the issue to death and the reality is there are a lot of cars going in and out of a residential neighborhood and there was a limit to the mitigation that could be put into place. He suggested in Community Development Condition No. 13, there was already a requirement that if the grass area, the 78-space overflow space, if the grass deteriorates, there was already a trigger for paving. He would rather see grass out there and let the applicant give grass a chance. There were some turfed parking areas that seem to work. So if they could have green out there instead of asphalt, they should give it a shot. And the condition was already there. <� Department of Public Works Condition No. 23 suggests an elimination of staggered start times. He thought that was a good idea until he heard the 62 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � testimony tonight and he understood and was sympathetic to parents who have to transport their children already back and forth and to have to do that twice in the morning and twice in the afternoon would be a pretty significant burden. So he suggested they eliminate that requirement in Condition No. 23. On the other hand, he thought it would be appropriate to add a requirement that the applicant implement a traffic and parking management plan that might incorporate either off duty police officers like St. Margaret's and/or volunteers. That plan should be to the satisfaction of the City. He thought that by working together with the City and with volunteers and/or off-duty police officers they could eliminate the illegal parking, unsafe parking along fire lanes, and much of the inconvenience that has been presented to the neighborhood. If things work and at some point that wasn't needed, it would be to the satisfaction of City staff. If there wasn't a problem, there wouldn't be a need to do that. But he would want to add that requirement to the condition. That same condition, No. 23, places a requirement, if necessary, to open an exit from the Via Palmira subdivision onto Moss Rose Drive. Again, he �; suggested that be at the discretion of the City. In the event it is required, the cost of that requirement should be burdened on the applicant. He thought that was fair because it wasn't Palmira that was instigating the need for this, it was the applicant. Other than that, he thought the other issues had been addressed. He asked if there was further discussion or a motion. Action: Commissioner Lopez stated that he would move for approval with the appropriate revision to Community Development Condition No. 10, Condition No. 11 on the sound system. Commissioner Finerty had a question regarding the sound system. Chairperson Jonathan requested that the motion be made, see if there was a second, then come back to discussion. Commissioner Lopez continued with the revision to Condition No. 23 with regarding staggered times and to eliminate that item. He believed those were the revisions, but they should correct him if he was wrong. Chairperson Jonathan asked if he was also suggesting adding the requirement for a traffic/parking management plan and burdening the applicant with the cost of the opening, should it be required. He asked if there were questions about the motion. � 63 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 Commissioner Finerty noted that they talked about Condition No. 1 1 and the PA system and Chairperson Jonathan suggested that they have the PA system for school hours only. She didn't think that was practical because if they have people in the Parish Hall having spaghetti dinner, or an emergency, they were going to need access to a PA system. Chairperson Jonathan said he thought she had a question on the motion and asked if there was a second. Commissioner Campbell seconded the motion. Chairperson Jonathan said that the PA system could be used in emergencies. He thought that was intuitive. Commissioner Finerty said they talked about the height going down to 33 feet and she didn't hear that as part of the motion. Commissioner Campbell said it would be 35. Commissioner Finerty asked if that was Commission's pleasure. Commissioner Lopez said yes. Commissioner Tschopp said that there was one other requirement they had, Public Works Condition No. 22. His concern was that setting the times was very arbitrary. It might be in the future that school times change and it should be left more that the church would change as � deemed necessary to assist with traffic in the area. He didn't like the idea � that they were setting a time. Commissioner Finerty clarified that the gist was so that school and mass didn't begin at the same time. Commissioner Tschopp understood it was in conjunction with the other schools in the area and the verbiage needed to be cleaned up. He didn't like to be arbitrary in case other things change ten years from now. Chairperson Jonathan suggested adding to the condition that it should be adjusted at the request of the City. Commissioner Tschopp concurred. Commissioner Finerty asked if Commissioner Lopez's motion indicated that the overflow parking should be paved. Commissioner Lopez said no, he was fine with the current wording, but it would need to be followed very carefully. Commissioner Tschopp said that Commissioner Lopez also had a good idea with the church participating and/or having in place a traffic/parking mitigation program. He was hoping that might be part of the conditions. Commissioner Lopez said it was part of No. 23. Mr. Greenwood asked for clarification regarding the parking management � plan to say that it is the applicant's architect and engineer's responsibility � � 64 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � to prepare, submit to staff and staff would review it as Planning Commission's representatives trying their best to have it crafted how they would like to see it, and then present it to Commission. Staff is representing the Planning Commission in getting this done. So when they ask for something to be done, they would like it to be addressed and not to be badgered about it. Speaking for himself, Chairperson Jonathan said that was his intent as well that the burden is on the applicant to create the plan to the satisfaction of staff and absolutely staff should feel free to share it with or get direction from the Planning Commission and make sure their objectives are being met there. The plan that he envisioned would enumerate, recognize and confirm the kinds of problems and challenges that have existed and then enumerate solutions and incorporate a solution to the illegal parking, free up fire lanes and so forth, and that it would probably include some kind of a traffic direction assistance, whether that was an off-duty officer or volunteers. Mr. Greenwood thanked him. Commissioner Campbell said that could all be included in Condition No. 23 with the parking and so forth. Commission concurred. Commissioner Lopez confirmed that was consistent with what he had in mind and staff should incorporate that into the condition. � Chairperson Jonathan called for the vote. The motion carried 5-0. It was moved by Commissioner Lopez, seconded by Commissioner Campbell, adopting Planning Commission Resolution No. 2325, approving Case No. CUP 04-13, subject to the conditions as amended. Motion carried 5-0. IX. MISCELLANEOUS A. Update and Discussion about Valet Parking at Palomino's and Augusta's. Chairperson Jonathan asked for a brief update and discussion about valet parking. He noted that Palomino's was no longer an issue. Relative to Augusta's, Mr. Drell stated that they are in violation of their permit. Chairperson Jonathan said that was every night. Mr. Drell said their permit only allows them to reserve one space in � 65 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 front and half the parking lot in back. Chairperson Jonathan indicated that they were no longer satisfied putting cones in the driveways, they were putting entire cars there. Mr. Drell said Public Works Department and Code Enforcement would be informing them that they are in violation of their permit and/or revocation. Mr. Greenwood asked if it was the strong feeling of the Planning Commission that the valet ordinance is something that we support and expect these permits to be adhered to, because frankly there were quite a few violations out there and they tend to be overlooked. He thought the Code Enforcement Department would appreciate hearing that this is indeed an important problem that they should be addressing. Speaking personally, Commissioner Tschopp said he found valet parking sometimes very offensive, the way the restaurants are doing it. They are taking the most convenient spaces, they are forcing other people that don't want to use valet parking to park way out beyond what is anticipated, it is a money making venture for a restaurant and when they use public parking, it really galls him to no end. To be quite honest, the liability that the restaurants don't have that the people are not aware of the legal issues, is just incredible. He personally would like to see someone take a look at the entire valet parking process and maybe even inform the public what they are getting into when they hand their keys over. But in spite of his personal opinion, he thought it was wholly unnecessary and being used wrongly in this city. Mr. Greenwood said that our ordinance indeed requires valet operators to park in the furthest away spaces. Commissioner Tschopp said whether it was Augusta's, or Palomino's, or Morton's, all of them don't do it. These are young kids who understand that a car could be parked close and they would make S5 a tip to hold a car hostage or park it two blocks down and get the same tip. They weren't dummies. They know where to park the cars that are close and convenient for themselves and not the public. That is the biggest travesty of the whole thing. Mr. Greenwood said those issues he just described were the very reasons we have a valet parking ordinance. It is the most 66 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 � restrictive in the valley, he believed, so it would help them to hear the Commission's comments and persuade Code Enforcement that this is indeed an important issue. Commissioner Tschopp said he didn't want to mislead him, that was his opinion. Commissioner Finerty agreed. She has never used valet parking because of the liability. They could just watch these kids go screeching off in the car that they take care of so perfectly and they aren't responsible for any liability, that was true. Commissioner Campbell said her employee has a daughter who started valet parking and the stories she tells, some of these guys didn't even have drivers licenses, they are alcoholics, they are on drugs and here they are parking very expensive cars and she would think that the company would go ahead and require that they have everything, but she guessed some of them do not. That's pretty scary. When they don't get their cars back sometimes, and it happened to a friend of theirs, when it used to be The Lodge, they couldn't find his car and someone probably took it for a joy drive. �.�► Chairperson Jonathan added that enforcement of the valet parking ordinance needed to be a very high priority for Code Compliance, and part of the reason he felt that way is they do give patrons a choice. Some people don't want to valet and some people do, so the ordinance accommodates those different desires and preferences. However, the code is specific in specifying that there needs to be a permitting process and a location. He thought that was very important. Our restaurant businesses in town need to comply with that. It disturbed him that the one in particular that he asked about, because he happens to see it every night, just flaunts the code, and in spite of the City's repeated requests for them to comply, just flaunt their disobedience. It's inappropriate and apparently others are doing it as well. He noted that they spend a lot of time here, many nights, working through details about parking and the layout and the number of spots. And all of that just goes away when they close off their parking lot, thereby diverting much of that parking demand onto the streets and creating a problem where they have worked so hard to avoid the emergence of a problem. The answer was yes, � 67 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 he personally thought it should be a very high priority compliance � issue. He thanked Mr. Drell for following up on that issue. Action: None. X. COMMITTEE MEETING UPDATES A. ART IN PUBLIC PLACES Commissioner Campbell reported that Art in Public Places would be on the 16th. B. LANDSCAPE COMMITTEE Commissioner Finerty said there was a meeting. Mr. Drell said they � discussed the gated walls. There were some esoteric design � decisions about Entrada Del Paseo. Commissioner Finerty said they � also talked about the bridge. It was informational. Mr. Greenwood noted they also addressed the Fred Waring sound wall. He thought that might be of interest to Commission. There wasn't enough right-of-way on Fred Waring to provide a sidewalk, which is very unusual in Palm Desert, but there's not a lot of pedestrian traffic there. So they were going to basically have a dual wall system there with a low retaining wall and then an eight to ten-foot higher sound wall just a foot and a half behind that. It wouldn't leave any room for landscaping or sidewalk, but the discussion was about having a decorative, he thought a very nice looking decorative wall, even nicer than the existing wall on Fred Waring near the Goleta area. They also recently at the City Council meeting deleted the sidewalk off of Florida Avenue because of concerns of the residents that it was intrusive to them. It was more of a burden to them than a benefit, so quite a number of them preferred that they not do it, so they decided not to build it. People can still walk in the street like they have for 40 years and � there hasn't been a problem. 68 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 � Commissioner Finerty agreed that it was going to be a nice looking wall. C. PROJECT AREA 4 COMMITTEE Commissioner Finerty reported there was no meeting. XI. COMMENTS A. Commissioner Lopez noted that during the course of the day they received a copy of a letter to Charlie Inderwiesche from Buford Crites and asked why they received it tonight. Mr. Diercks explained that Mr. Joy was trying to respond to the Commission's desire to have an overall view of the traffic and that was something that came up from one of the newspaper articles and that was Councilman Crites' letter back to the homeowner. He just included it for reference. Commissioner Lopez said he saw Charlie Inderwiesche here tonight and thought he might have addressed �,. that and was just curious why they received it. 6. Commissioner Tschopp didn't know what the answer was, but suggested that the City take a look at the various schools in Palm Desert and the problems we have twice a day. He thought there would be a better solution than having one mother and one kid in a car piled up in the public streets two times a day, creating this massive problem, whether it's Hovley, Washington, etc. It's a mess. He understood that schools don't design their properties right and so forth. Mr. Drell stated that there are two issues. One, they heard it here. There is a woman who lives right across the street who insists on driving her child to school. So even where it's convenient to walk, or even just to walk their own child, she still gets in her car and darts across Deep Canyon putting everyone's life in danger. The second is, which really brought up the Florine problem, is the old way the schools used to be designed is they were ringed on all four sides with a street which created huge amounts of parking and dispersed the impacts around almost a mile of sidewalk. What the School District has been doing is the opposite with basically �r... 69 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 � � � one frontage. That was the problem with the high school, one frontage, or even half the frontage. So what they are trying to do, if they remembered the design for the K-8 school in the north, it is ringed entirely and is off an arterial so it doesn't conflict with traffic on Gerald Ford. It is ringed by a street. Logically what they've been doing in this case is concentrating traffic. We didn't allow them to access Florine and we didn't allow the internal access within those projects to allow them to get further north to exit. So we in essence forced Palmira, their one access, right into the teeth of the concentrated traffic that they forced the church to engage in. So in reality they have made these little decisions and caved to the people on Florine, caved to the people on Moss Rose, concentrating the traffic into one little spot. That's where the overall public good discussion interacts with the narrow discussion and that's when sometimes they have to say no. Again, the analogy that they've been squeezing a water balloon each time and each time they squeeze it it bulges and eventually they run out of squeeze. And the Palmira being the last ended up taking the ;� impact of the last bulge. When they look at one little neighbor's ' complaint without looking at the whole picture, the problem is just � deferred. Commissioner Finerty noted that Palmira residents knew what they were getting into when they bought there. Mr. Drell said that was correct, but it's our job. Commissioner Tschopp said his point was more that the City is fairly proactive when it comes to different things such as waste management, parks, golf carts and Sunline and things of that nature. There has to be a better way to run a city than let everyone back up in the middle of the roads twice a day with two people in the car. Some program to institute that basically says the only way to get to school is if they have three people in the car. There are ways things could be done if someone wanted to be proactive. Mr. Drell said that unfortunately we can't prevent people from getting into their cars, they just have to disperse the traffic better. Mr. Greenwood wanted to address what they are doing in a positive aspect. With Washington Charter School, the City of Palm .� Desert built the angle parking spaces on Larrea or Lantana (the street behind the schoot), working with the District on the 70 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15, 2005 � Washington Charter School modernization to do more angle parking on Chicory. They worked long and hard with the School District to provide even more parking on the site and they've just been adamant that parking is not their issue, not their problem, it's our problem to address. So the City does what it can. With the school where Washington has been relocated to now on Country Club, they co-located the school with a park and they were going to share some parking there which would be much better than any other school in Palm Desert. So the City took a proactive approach to making that happen. At Lincoln and the Middle School, there are modernization plans there and they've worked actively with the school to try and address the parking and they've again said it isn't their problem or issue. So the City does what it can to provide the additional parking. He thought the City of Palm Desert was going far beyond any other city in addressing school needs. The traffic plan around Lincoln and the Middle schools with one-way streets was City staff's idea and it has been in place for six or seven years. So they �, are addressing and doing as much as they can and are far ahead of other cities, but by no means perfect. As an example, Mr. Drell said when they had their last meeting with the School District, they took offense with that they were suggesting. The guy said he has been doing it for 50 years. For Cardiff School, there was never a single consultation with the City from the School District on the design of the school. Chairperson Jonathan noted that the high school was the same way. The City tried. Mr. Drell thought the high school was the perfect storm. Chairperson Jonathan said that was in spite of the City's efforts to avoid those problems. Mr. Drell said part of the problem was we wanted the high school so badly. One thing he learned was when they think about a problem, they have to fight for it to the end. Otherwise, there was nothing worse than knowing the problem was going to happen. When it comes out of nowhere, you don't know, but when you know there's going to be a problem and don't act on it, that's different. Mr. Greenwood said that was his concern with Washington Charter School. They pointed out that the parking and drop off � 71 MINUTES PALM DESERT PLANNING COMMISSION FEBRUARY 15 2005 situation there is not going to be improved even by 10%, so there was an opportunity with complete demolition of that site. They won't see much improvement when that brand new shiny school is opened. It's going to be the same traffic disaster it always was, other than the modest improvements they could make by putting in a few parking spaces here and there along the city street. Chairperson Jonathan couldn't imagine how a school district could responsibly say that parking demands and traffic flow situations that it creates are not their problem or their responsibility. Mr. Greenwood said he should add too that the City Council shares the Commission's concerns and works hard. The City has a Two By Two Commission that works very hard to represent the City's issues there and Palm Desert is far ahead of other cities. Chairperson Jonathan said we are grateful for the strides we are able to take. XII. ADJOURNMENT It was moved by Chairperson Jonathan, seconded by Commissioner Tschopp, adjourning the meeting by minute motion. Motion carried 5-0. The meeting was adjourned at 9:14 p.m. • /L,�_t 1 PHILIP DRE L, Secretary ATTEST: -___ , �-� � _ , �' \ _ AVE TSCHOPP, Chairper o Palm Desert Planning Commission /tm 72