HomeMy WebLinkAbout1991-08-01MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESERT CITY COUNCIL MEETING
THURSDAY, AUGUST 1, 1991
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I. CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Snyder convened the meeting at 7:10 p.m.
H. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE - Councilman Buford A. Crites
III. INVOCATION - Councilmember Jean M. Benson
W. ROLL CALL
Present:
Councilmember Jean M. Benson
Councilman Buford A. Crites
Mayor Pro-Tempore Richard S. Kelly
Councilman S. Roy Wilson
Mayor Walter H. Snyder
Others Present:
Paul Shillcock, Acting City Manager/Director of Economic Development
Doug Phillips, Deputy City Attorney
Mary P. Frazier, Deputy City Clerk
Carlos L. Ortega, ACM/Director of Redevelopment
Ramon A. Diaz, ACM/Director of Community Development/Planning
Richard J. Folkers, ACM/Director of Public Works
V. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS - A
None
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESF' 'CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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VI. PUBLIC HEARINGS
A. REQUEST FOR APPROVAL OF A 450-UNIT COUNTRY CLUB (REFERRED TO
AS ALTAMIRA), A ZONE CHANGE FROM O.S. TO PR-5 AND HPR FOR A
DRAINAGEWAY IN THE CENTRAL PORTION OF THE SITE, AND
CERTIFICATION OF AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT ON 352 ACRES
SOUTHEAST OF HIGHWAY 74 AND INDIAN HILLS WAY (BIGHORN
VENTURES, APPLICANT) CASE NO.S TT 25796 AND C/Z 89-16, (CONTINUED
FROM THE MEETING OF JULY 11, 1991.)
See verbatim transcript attached hereto and made a part hereof as Exhibit "A".
Councilman Wilson moved to, by Minute Motion, continue this matter to 10:30 a.m. Monday,
August 5, 1991, with clear direction to both sides that the Council feels a 400-yard buffer given by the
developer is a reasonable mitigation measure from the standpoint of the developer; however, if
additional yardage is needed, that the developer agree to work with the Bighorn Institute to sell them
the necessary property. Motion was seconded by Crites and carried by unanimous vote of the City
Council.
VII. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS - B
None
VIII. ADJOURNMENT
With concurrence of the City Council, Mayor Snyder adjourned the meeting at 2:50 a.m. to
Closed Session at 10:00 a.m. on Monday, August 5, 1991, pursuant to Government Code Section
54956.9 (b), potential litigation.
ATTEST:
c A
MARY P. ) ZIER, DEPUTI- CITY CLERK
CITY OF M DESERT, CALIFORNIA
WALTER H. SNYDER, MAY,
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EXHIBIT "A"
PUBLIC HEARING
BEFORE THE PALM DESERT CITY COUNCIL
VOLUME I
CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS
73-510 FRED WARING DRIVE
PALM DESERT, CALIFORNIA
THURSDAY, AUGUST 1, 1991
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS WITH REFERENCE
TO CASE NO. S TT 25296 AND C/Z 89-16, (CONTINUED FROM
THE MEETING OF JULY 11, 1991). ZONE CHANGE FROM O.S.
TO PR-5 AND HPR FOR A DRAINAGEWAY IN THE CENTRAL
PORTION OF THE SITE, AND CERTIFICATION OF AN
ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT ON 352 ACRES SOUTHEAST
OF HIGHWAY 74 AND INDIAN HILLS WAY - BIGHORN VENTURES,
APPLICANT.
CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS:
WALTER H. SNYDER, MAYOR
RICHARD S. KELLY, MAYOR PRO TEM
S. ROY WILSON
JEAN M. BENSON
BUFORD A. CRITES
CITY STAFF PARTICIPATING
RAMON A. DIAZ, PLANNING DIRECTOR
PHIL JOY, ASSOCIATE PLANNER
RICHARD W. FOLKERS, CITY ENGINEER
DOUGLAS S. PHILLIPS, CITY ATTORNEY
REPORTED BY:.
G. JOANNE BERGREN, C.S.R.
CERTIFICATE NO. 6334
ADJOURNED PALM DESE' CITY COUNCIL MEETING
AUGUST 1,1991
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EXHIIBIT 'A'
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1 PROCEEDINGS
2
3 MAYOR SNYDER: GOOD EVENING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
4 IT'S A PLEASURE TO SEE SO MANY PEOPLE COME OUT AND
5 PARTICIPATE IN THE RUNNING OF OUR GOVERNMENT. THIS IS
6 PROBABLY THE LARGEST GROUP WE'VE HAD, AND WE DO APPRECIATE
7 YOU COMING.
8 WE'RE HERE TO TRY TO FIND OUT HOW YOU WANT US
9 TO RUN THE CITY. WE WORK PRETTY HARD AT IT, AND WE HOPE
10 THAT YOU'LL CONCUR WITH WHATEVER WE COME UP WITH.
11 WE'RE HERE TONIGHT TO DISCUSS A PROBLEM OR A
12 PROGRAM OR A SITUATION THAT WE FIND OURSELF IN AS TO HOW
13 WE BEST RUN OUR CITY AND DO THE THINGS THAT WE, AS PEOPLE
14 IN THIS CITY, WANT IT DONE. THAT'S OUR INTENTION TONIGHT.
15 THAT'S OUR REASON FOR BEING HERE.
16 AND WE HOPE YOU WILL LIVE WITH US, BE
17 COURTEOUS, BE RESPECTFUL TO THE PEOPLE WHO TALK, AND LET'S
18 TRY TO KEEP OUR REMARKS OR OUR DISCUSSIONS OF,
19 PARTICULARLY THE PEOPLE WHO COME TO THE MICROPHONE, TO
20 ABOUT FIVE MINUTES. I'D HATE TO BE HERE TILL TOMORROW
21 MORNING, AND I DON'T THINK YOU WANT TO BE, EITHER.
22 WE REALLY ENJOY HAVING YOU COME, AND I HAVE,
23 INDEED, CALLED THE ADJOURNED PALM DESERT CITY COUNCIL
24 MEETING TO ORDER. I WILL ASK IF YOU WOULD ALL RISE AND
25 JOIN WITH ME FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE BY BUFORD
NIINU ES
ADJOURNED PALM DES C CITY COUNCIL MEEFING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
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1 CRITES AND AN INVOCATION BY MRS. BENSON.
2 (THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.)
3 (INVOCATION.)
4 MAYOR SNYDER: WOULD THE CLERK PLEASE CALL THE ROLL.
5 CITY CLERK FRAZIER: COUNCILMEMBER BENSON.
6 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: PRESENT.
7 CITY CLERK FRAZIER: COUNCILMAN CRITES.
8 COUNCILMAN CRITES: PRESENT.
9 CITY CLERK FRAZIER: MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY.
10 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: HERE.
11 CITY CLERK FRAZIER: COUNCILMAN WILSON.
12 COUNCILMAN WILSON: HERE.
13 CITY CLERK FRAZIER: MAYOR SNYDER.
14 MAYOR SNYDER: HERE.
15 THE FIRST ITEM ON THE AGENDA -- AND THIS IS A
16 ONE -AGENDA ITEM, BUT WE ALWAYS DO THIS. THE FIRST ITEM ON
17 ALL OF OUR MEETINGS IS CALLED ORAL COMMUNICATION.
18 ANY PERSON WISHING TO DISCUSS ANY ITEM NOT
19 OTHERWISE ON THE AGENDA MAY ADDRESS THE CITY COUNCIL AT
20 THIS POINT BY STEPPING TO THE LECTERN AND GIVING HIS OR
21 HER NAME. THIS IS A ONE -PURPOSE MEETING, BUT IF THERE IS
22 SOME CRASHING IDEA THAT SOMEBODY HAS OTHER THAN THIS, NOW
23 IS THE TIME AND THE PLACE.
24 IF NOT, THE FIRST AND ONLY ITEM ON THE AGENDA
25 IS A PUBLIC HEARING. PUBLIC HEARING IS A REQUEST FOR
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EXHIBIT "A'
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1 APPROVAL OF A 450-UNIT COUNTRY CLUB REFERRED TO AS ALTA
2 MIRA, A ZONE CHANGE FROM OPEN SPACE TO PR-5 AND HPR FOR
3 CERTIFICATION OF AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT SOUTHWEST
4 OF HIGHWAY 74 AND INDIAN WELLS (SIC) WAY. CASE NO. STT
5 25296 AND C/Z 89-16. THIS IS A CONTINUED MEETING FROM
6 JULY 11TH.
7 SO THE FIRST THING, WE WILL ASK THE CITY TO
8 MAKE THEIR PRESENTATION.
9 MR. CITY MANAGER.
10 MR. SHILLCOCK: YES. MR. MAYOR, MR. DIAZ, OF THE
11 STAFF, WILL MAKE THE PRESENTATION ON THIS ITEM.
12 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: YES.
13 MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL.
14 JUST A FEW WORDS BEFORE MR. JOY GIVES HIS
15 REPORT.
16 THE MATTER BEFORE US THIS EVENING, I DON'T HAVE
17 TO SAY, HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES
18 FACING THE CITY SINCE OUR INCORPORATION. AND LIKE THE
19 VARYING EXPERT OPINIONS CONTAINED IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL
20 IMPACT REPORT, RESPECTED INDIVIDUALS HAVE LINED UP ON BOTH
21 SIDES OF THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE.
22 THE STAFF'S PRINCIPAL CONCERN IS THAT THE
23 HEARINGS ARE CONCLUDED AND THE DECISIONS RENDERED AND THAT
24 PALM DESERT WILL REUNITE IN THE UNIFIED AND SINGLE-
25 MINDEDNESS OF PURPOSE WHICH HAS PUNCTUATED THIS COMMUNITY
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EXHIBIT `A`
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1 SINCE ITS INCORPORATION.
2 IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL
3 IMPACT REPORT, IN AND OF ITSELF, DOES NOT IDENTIFY WHO
4 SHALL IMPLEMENT THE MITIGATION MEASURES IDENTIFIED WITHIN
5 THAT DOCUMENT, BUT IT IS AN INFORMATION DOCUMENT THAT
6 IDENTIFIES POTENTIAL SIGNIFICANT ADVERSE IMPACTS TO THE
7 ENVIRONMENT AND MITIGATION MEASURES WHICH SHOULD BE
8 IMPLEMENTED TO MITIGATE THOSE IMPACTS. THE APPROVAL
9 PROCESS AND THE CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL WOULD GENERATE WHO
10 WILL IMPLEMENT THE PARTICULAR MITIGATION MEASURES.
11 WHILE OTHER AGENCIES HAVE COMMENTED AND
12 CRITICIZED OUR GENERAL PLAN, IT HAS BEEN THEIR DECISIONS
13 AND ACTIONS WHICH HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO CREATING THE
14 SITUATION IN WHICH WE FIND OURSELVES THIS EVENING.
15 THE MITIGATION MEASURES IDENTIFIED IN THE
16 REPORT AND WHICH YOU, THE COUNCIL, WILL IMPOSE IF THE
17 PROJECT IS APPROVED, WE WOULD URGE THAT THOSE GOVERNMENTAL
18 AGENCIES REQUIRE THOSE MITIGATION MEASURES AS PART OF ANY
19 APPROVALS FOR NEW USES OR EXPANDED USES WITHIN THE AREAS
20 IN QUESTION.
21 AT THIS POINT I WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE PHIL
22 JOY, WHO WILL GIVE THE STAFF REPORT.
23 PHIL.
24 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: THANK YOU.
25 MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE CITY COUNCIL.
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EXIUBIT "A'
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1 FIRST, I WOULD LIKE TO GIVE A BRIEF PROJECT
2 DESCRIPTION; SECOND, I WOULD LIKE TO GIVE THE RESULTS OF
3 THE E.I.R. ITSELF; AND, LASTLY, I'D LIKE TO PASS ON THE
4 RECOMMENDATIONS FROM OUR CITY PLANNING COMMISSION.
5 THE PROJECT INVOLVES CONSTRUCTION OF 450
6 SINGLE -STORY UNITS SURROUNDING AN 18-HOLE GOLF COURSE AND
7 OTHER AMENITIES NORMALLY ASSOCIATED WITH A COUNTRY CLUB.
8 THE ZONING ON THE PROPERTY IS PRIMARILY PLANNED
9 RESIDENTIAL, FIVE UNITS PER ACRE; PLANNED RESIDENTIAL,
10 SEVEN UNITS PER ACRE; AND HILLSIDE PLANNED RESIDENTIAL,
11 WHICH, PUT TOGETHER, ALLOWS APPROXIMATELY 1450 UNITS.
12 A SMALL PORTION OF THE SITE, WHICH IS IN THE
13 CENTRAL PORTION OF THE AREA, IS PRESENTLY ZONED OPEN SPACE
14 AND, RIGHT NOW, IT'S OCCUPIED BY WHAT WE CALL THE IRONWOOD
15 DIKE, WHICH PROVIDED FLOOD CONTROL PROTECTION FOR THE CITY
16 PRIOR TO THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE PALM VALLEY CHANNEL. AND
17 THIS IS THE AREA THAT'S BEING PROPOSED FOR A ZONE CHANGE,
18 SINCE IT IS NO LONGER NEEDED FOR FLOOD CONTROL PURPOSES.
19 THE MAJORITY OF THE SITE IS TYPIFIED BY SIMILAR
20 TERRAIN AS THE REST OF THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE CITY OF PALM
21 DESERT WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A WASH THAT RUNS THROUGH THE
22 SOUTHEASTERN PORTION OF THE PROPERTY AND, ALSO, THE
23 PROPERTY WHICH IS RESTRICTED BY THE HILLSIDE RESIDENTIAL
24 ORDINANCE.
25 ACCESS TO THE PROJECT IS CONTEMPLATED ACROSS
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EXHIIBIT 'A'
7
1 FROM INDIAN SPRINGS MOBILE HOME PARK, AND CALTRANS HAS
2 INDICATED THAT THIS IS PROBABLY THE PREFERRED LOCATION.
3 THE CITY'S HILLSIDE ORDINANCE, WHICH WAS
4 AMENDED EIGHT YEARS AGO, LISTS FOUR DIFFERENT OPTIONS THAT
5 CAN BE FOLLOWED BY DEVELOPMENT; HOWEVER, THE ONLY OPTION
6 THAT A GOLF COURSE WOULD BE APPLICABLE TOWARDS WOULD BE
7 OPTION 1, SINCE IT IS THE ONLY OPTION WHICH GIVES GRADING
8 RESTRICTIONS, EVEN IF DWELLING UNITS ARE NOT PROPOSED.
9 AND FOR THIS TYPE OF PROJECT, THERE ARE GOLF
10 COURSE HOLES PROPOSED IN THE HILLSIDE, AND THIS IS BY FAR
11 THE EASIEST OPTION TO TRY AND CALCULATE IN THIS AREA. FOR
12 THIS OPTION, 68 DWELLING UNITS WOULD BE ALLOWED IN THE
13 HILLSIDE AREA, WHILE ONLY 59 ARE BEING PROPOSED.
14 THE HILLSIDE ORDINANCE WOULD FURTHER STATE THAT
15 ONLY 53 PERCENT OF THE LAND -- EXCUSE ME -- 53 PERCENT OF
16 THE LAND IS REQUIRED TO BE LEFT IN ITS NATURAL STATE. AND
17 THAT IS WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED BY THE PROJECT.
18 SIGNIFICANT NATURAL FEATURES RELATING TO THE
19 SKYLINE IDENTIFIED IN THE E.I.R. AESTHETICS PORTION WERE
20 LEFT -- WERE LEFT ALONE ON THE GRADING PLAN. AND FURTHER
21 REVIEW BY THE CITY'S ARCHITECTURAL COMMITTEE GUARANTEES
22 HOMES AND LANDSCAPING TO BLEND WITH THE NATURAL
23 ENVIRONMENT.
24 NOW, THE E.I.R. IDENTIFIED TWO SIGNIFICANT
25 BIOLOGICAL IMPACTS AND DISCOUNTED TWO OTHERS THAT WERE
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EXHIBIT 'A'
8
1 PREVIOUSLY DEEMED SIGNIFICANT.
2 AN IMPACT TO THE DESERT TORTOISE WAS NOT DEEMED
3 SIGNIFICANT, BASED ON THE LACK OF EVIDENCE OF ANY SIGN OF
4 CURRENT USE BY TORTOISES ON THE PROPERTY.
5 IMPACTS TO FREE -RANGING BIGHORN SHEEP WAS NOT
6 DEEMED SIGNIFICANT, AS THE SITE WAS DEEMED POOR QUALITY
7 HABITAT AND IT IS OUTSIDE THE BOUNDARIES OF SHEEP HABITAT
8 AS IDENTIFIED ON THE SANTA ROSA MOUNTAINS HABITAT
9 MANAGEMENT PLAN. IT IS ALSO SIGNIFICANT TO NOTE THAT THE
10 BIGHORN INSTITUTE LOCATED AT ITS PRESENT LOCATION BECAUSE
11 IT WAS NOT CONSIDERED A HABIT AREA.
12 NOW, THE TWO SIGNIFICANT IMPACTS IDENTIFIED IN
13 THE E.I.R. WERE TO THE DESERT WASH AND TO THE BIGHORN
14 INSTITUTE OPERATIONS. I DISPLAYED THESE TWO AREAS ON THE
15 PLAN ON THE WALL TO YOUR LEFT UP HERE.
16 THE GREEN -SHADED PORTION WOULD BE THE AREAS
17 THAT WERE -- THE FAMOUS BUFFER THAT YOU'VE HEARD ABOUT IN
18 THE BIOLOGICAL SECTION OF THE E.I.R., AND THE YELLOW AREA
19 WOULD BE THE BUFFER FOR THE DESERT WASH.
20 NOW, THE OTHER SECTION OF THE E.I.R. DATA WENT
21 INTO GREAT DETAIL ON BIGHORN INSTITUTE OPERATIONS WHERE IT
22 LISTS THE LAND USE SECTION ALSO, AND THIS WAS PROBABLY
23 MORE -- ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING ASPECTS OF THE
24 E.I.R. -- IMPORTANT ASPECTS, I SHOULD STATE, BECAUSE THIS
25 STUDIED THE LAND USE COMPATIBILITIES BETWEEN THE TWO
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EXHIBIT 'A'
9
1 DIFFERENT PROJECTS.
2 NOW, THE LAND USE SECTION STRESSES THAT LAND
3 USE INCOMPATIBILITIES COULD BE DEEMED SELF-IMPOSED BY THE
4 INSTITUTE, SINCE PREVIOUSLY THE ALTA MIRA SITE AND THE
5 INSTITUTE SITE WERE BOTH ZONED FOR RESIDENTIAL USES, AND
6 THAT EVEN A 400-YARD BUFFER REQUIREMENT COULD PLACE THE
7 CITY IN A POSITION OF HAVING TO ACQUIRE A 12-ACRE PARCEL
8 OWNED BY DEL GAGNON.
9 NOW, THIS IS SHOWN ON THE PLAN, OUTLINED IN
10 PINK, AND THAT'S AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE PLAN, AND IT'S
11 A TRIANGULAR -SHAPED PIECE OF PROPERTY. AND, AS YOU CAN
12 SEE, THE 400-YARD BUFFER, WHICH IS IN RED, SURROUNDS THE
13 ENTIRE DEL GAGNON PIECE OF PROPERTY.
14 THE PLANNING COMMISSION UNANIMOUSLY RECOMMENDED
15 APPROVAL OF THE PROJECT. THEY FOUND IMPACTS TO THE DESERT
16 WASH NOT TO BE SIGNIFICANT DUE TO, ONE, ITS LACK OF
17 UNIQUENESS AND THE PROXIMITY OF DEEP CANYON, WHICH IS
18 PUBLICLY OWNED AND PROTECTED AND OWNED BY THE UNIVERSITY
19 OF CALIFORNIA, AND IS PRESENTLY A DEEP CANYON RESEARCH
20 CENTER.
21 AND, NUMBER TWO, PREVIOUS HUMAN ALTERATIONS AS
22 A RESULT OF CONSTRUCTION OF THE DEAD INDIAN CREEK DEBRIS
23 BASIN, WHICH DIVERTS THE ENTIRE CREEK INTO THE PALM VALLEY
24 CHANNEL AND, ALSO, TRAINING LEVIES WHICH RESTRICT FLOWS
25 INTO THE CHANNEL RATHER THAN ACROSS THE ENTIRE SITE, AS IT
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EXHIBIT 'A'
10
1 HISTORICALLY DID IN THE PAST.
2 AND, THREE, THAT THE WASH RESTORATION PROPOSED
3 BY THE APPLICANT SUFFICIENTLY ADDRESSES ENVIRONMENTAL
4 CONCERNS. TO ELABORATE ON THIS ONE A LITTLE BIT, THE
5 SMOKE TREES WHICH OCCUPY THE WASH PRESENTLY ARE BEING
6 REQUIRED TO BE THE MAIN LANDSCAPE FEATURE OF THE WASH AS
7 IT WOULD BE RECONSTRUCTED.
8 IN REGARDS TO IMPACTS TO THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE,
9 THE COMMISSION CONSIDERED RESPONSES TO A QUESTIONNAIRE
10 MAILED TO BIGHORN EXPERTS AND WERE SWAYED BY RESPONSES
11 FROM, AMONG OTHERS, THE LIVING DESERT AND VERN BLEICH OF
12 THE CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME, WHO STATED,
13 AMONG OTHER THINGS, THAT SOME HABITUATION TO HUMAN
14 ACTIVITY WAS NECESSARY FOR SHEEP TO SURVIVE IN THE SANTA
15 ROSA MOUNTAINS, AND A BUFFER MINIMUM GRADUATING FROM
16 100 YARDS, IN ADDITION TO IDEAL PEN CONFIGURATION WHICH
17 THE INSTITUTE HAS, WOULD BE SUFFICIENT.
18 THE PROJECT, AS DESIGNED, CONTAINS A BUFFER OF
19 300 TO 400 YARDS TO THE NEAREST RESIDENCES FROM THE
20 LAMBING PEN AND 200 TO 300 YARDS TO THE CLOSEST GOLF
21 FAIRWAY AND ALSO A TEE BOX.
22 THE NORMAL SETBACK FROM A HOUSE TO A PROPERTY
23 LINE FROM A PROJECT IS 20 FEET, BUT THE PROJECT, AS IT'S
24 DESIGNED, CONTAINS A 450-FOOT SETBACK FROM THE PROPERTY
25 LINE. AND THE COMMISSION FELT THAT THIS WAS ABOVE WHAT
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EXHIBIT 'A'
11
1 WAS NECESSARY.
2 NOW, RECENT CORRESPONDENCE FROM THE DIRECTOR OF
3 CALIFORNIA FISH AND GAME SUPPORTS A 400-YARD BUFFER. THIS
4 AGENCY IS ACTUALLY THE OWNER OF ALL PENINSULAR BIGHORN
5 SHEEP, AND THIS RESPONSE IS AN IMPORTANT FACTOR TO
6 CONSIDER.
7 ALONG THESE LINES, STAFF AND THE CONSULTANTS
8 HAVE DEVELOPED A MITIGATION MEASURE THAT ADDRESSES THIS
9 RESPONSE AND THE DEL GAGNON SITUATION.
10 AT THIS TIME I'D LIKE TO TURN IT OVER TO ANDI
11 ADAMS, FROM CULBERTSON, ADAMS AND ASSOCIATES, WHO ARE
12 CONSULTANTS ON THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT, TO EXPLAIN
13 EXACTLY HOW THIS WOULD WORK.
14 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, PHIL.
15 JUST BEFORE YOU START, WE HAVE A SILVER FORD
16 WITH THE LICENSE NUMBER "ME N TED." THE LIGHTS ARE ON. I
17 WANT YOU TO BE ABLE TO GET HOME TONIGHT, SO YOU'D BETTER
18 TURN THEM OFF.
19 ANDI.
20 MS. ADAMS: THANK YOU.
21 MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE CITY COUNCIL.
22 I'D LIKE TO CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO A REVISED
23 RESOLUTION THAT I PLACED ON YOUR DAIS THIS EVENING. THERE
24 ARE ADDITIONAL COPIES AVAILABLE FROM THE CLERK. THIS IS
25 THE SAME RESOLUTION AS YOU RECEIVED IN YOUR PACKAGE, BUT
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EXHIBIT 'A'
12
1 I'D LIKE TO CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO CERTAIN CHANGES IN IT.
2 BEFORE I DO THAT, ON THE PAGE -- CALL YOUR
3 ATTENTION TO THE PAGES, I'D LIKE TO INDICATE THAT AFTER
4 THE REVIEW OF ALL THE DATA IN THE E.I.R., THE COMMENTS
5 FROM THE PUBLIC ON THE E.I.R., AND THE RESPONSES THERETO,
6 STAFF AND OUR OFFICE HAS DEVELOPED A PROPOSED MITIGATION
7 MEASURE FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION TONIGHT WHICH WE BELIEVE
8 MERITS CONSIDERATION.
9 THE NEWLY PROPOSED MITIGATION MEASURE DRAWS ON
10 MANY OF THE MEASURES THAT ARE ALREADY PRESENTED TO YOU IN
11 THE E.I.R. AS WELL AS THE PROJECT ALTERNATIVES ALREADY
12 PRESENTED IN THE E.I.R.
13 THE MEASURE, AS PROVIDED TO YOU IN THE CEQA
14 FINDINGS, IS BEFORE YOU, AND IT BEGINS ON PAGE 15. IT'S
15 MITIGATION MEASURE NO. 20, FOR YOUR REFERENCE.
16 IN SUMMARY -- IT'S A LENGTHY MEASURE, AND
17 RATHER THAN READING IT INTO THE RECORD, I WOULD LIKE TO
18 SUMMARIZE IT FOR YOU.
19 IN SUMMARY, THE MEASURE CALLS FOR THE
20 IMPOSITION OF A RESERVATION AREA OVER THE TENTATIVE TRACT
21 MAP AS PROPOSED BY THE APPLICANT AND DISCUSSED IN THE
22 E.I.R. THIS RESERVATION AREA WOULD BE 400 YARDS AS
23 MEASURED FROM THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE 30-ACRE PEN, LOCATED
24 CLOSEST TO THE PROPERTY.
25 THE CONTOUR LINE FOR THE 400 YARDS FROM THE PEN
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FIIBIT 'A'
13
1 IS ALREADY SHOWN ON THE TENTATIVE MAP THAT YOU HAVE IN
2 YOUR PACKAGES. SO THAT IS -- WILL GIVE GUIDANCE TO YOU AS
3 TO WHERE THE DELINEATION OCCURS.
4 IF THE COUNCIL APPROVES THE TENTATIVE MAP AS
5 PROPOSED BY THE APPLICANT AND APPROVES THIS MITIGATION
6 MEASURE, THE EFFECT OF THE MEASURE WILL BE TO IMPOSE A
7 RESTRICTION ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE TENTATIVE MAP IN
8 THIS AREA FOR A PERIOD OF THREE YEARS.
9 IN OTHER WORDS, A TENTATIVE MAP, IF COUNCIL
10 FASHIONED ITS APPROVAL THIS WAY, WOULD BE APPROVED, BUT IT
11 COULD NOT BE IMPLEMENTED FOR A THREE-YEAR PERIOD, DURING
12 WHICH TIME ANY PUBLIC AGENCY OR ITS DESIGNEE, UPON WRITTEN
13 NOTICE TO THE PROPERTY OWNER AND TO THE CITY, COULD
14 ANNOUNCE ITS INTENTION TO ENTER INTO NEGOTIATIONS TO
15 PURCHASE THE PROPERTY.
16 THE REMAINDER OF THE MITIGATION MEASURE IN THIS
17 AREA TALKS ABOUT THE FAIR MARKET VALUE, THE 30 DAYS FOR
18 NEGOTIATIONS, ET CETERA. NOW, THEY ARE TYPICAL TERMS OF A
19 PURCHASE.
20 THE PROPERTY THAT WOULD BE PURCHASED IS THE
21 PROPERTY THAT MR. JOY IDENTIFIED TO YOU AS THE DEL GAGNON
22 PARCEL. THAT IS INDICATED, AGAIN, IN PINK ON THE MAP
23 BEHIND YOU. ALTHOUGH THE 400-YARD BUFFER INCLUDES MORE
24 PROPERTY THAN THE DEL GAGNON PARCEL, IT IS ONLY THE
25 DEL GAGNON PARCEL THAT IS PROPOSED TO BE ACQUIRED.
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EXIUB1T "A'
14
5 1 THE -- IF THE DEL GAGNON PROPERTY IS NOT
2 ACQUIRED BY A PUBLIC AGENCY OR ITS DESIGNEE WITHIN THREE
3 YEARS OF THE DATE OF APPROVAL OF THE MAP, THEN THERE WOULD
4 BE NO FURTHER RESTRICTION ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE MAP
5 UNDER THIS MITIGATION.
6 IN SELECTING A BUFFER SIZE TO INCLUDE FOR THE
7 PURPOSES OF THIS PROPOSED MITIGATION MEASURE, WE HAVE
8 CONSIDERED ALL OF THE DATA IN THE RECORD. THE
9 RECOMMENDATION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME HAS BEEN
10 MOST PERSUASIVE TO US. THE DEPARTMENT'S RECENT
11 CLARIFICATION OF THEIR RECOMMENDED BUFFER IN THEIR
12 JULY 31ST LETTER TO THE CITY WAS THAT THERE SHOULD BE A
13 MINIMUM 400-YARD BUFFER IN THE SHAPE OF AN ARC, MEASURED
14 FROM THE EDGE OF THE LAMBING PEN OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
15 THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME RECOMMENDATION
16 IN THIS AREA IS CONSIDERED BY US TO BE IMPORTANT FOR AT
17 LEAST THREE REASONS: FIRST, AS NOTED IN THE E.I.R. AND
18 ELSEWHERE, THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME OWNS AND
19 CONTROLS THE CAPTIVE BIGHORN AT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE;
20 SECONDLY, THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME IS
21 THE STATE AGENCY RESPONSIBLE FOR CARRYING OUT THE
22 PROVISION IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROVISIONS IN OUR STATE
23 LAWS, INCLUDING --
24 AM I DOING IT?
25 MAYOR SNYDER: NO.
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DE; T CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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5
EXHIBIT 'A'
15
1 MS. ADAMS: SORRY.
2 -- INCLUDING, ENDANGERED SPECIES, ENDANGERED
3 AND THREATENED SPECIES PROTECTION. THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH
4 AND GAME IS VERY FAMILIAR WITH DECIDING THE SCOPE OF RISKS
5 FOR SUCH SPECIES.
6 THIRDLY, THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME IS A
7 PARTY TO THE MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING WITH THE BIGHORN
8 INSTITUTE CONCERNING THE USE OF THE SHEEP AND IS IN A GOOD
9 POSITION TO KNOW THE OPERATION OF THAT FACILITY.
10 THEREFORE, WE ARE APPRECIATIVE OF DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND
11 GAME'S INPUT IN THIS REGARD, AND THAT FORMS THE BASIS.
12 I'M PREPARED TO READ THE MITIGATION MEASURE IN
13 ITS ENTIRETY IF IT'S DESIRED BY THE COUNCIL. THE
14 RESOLUTION THAT YOU PREVIOUSLY REVIEWED HAS BEEN SLIGHTLY
15 REVISED TO ACCOMMODATE THIS CONDITION.
16 THOSE REVISIONS APPEAR ON PAGE 1, IN THE
17 INTRODUCTION, WHERE IT'S DESCRIBED FOR THE FIRST TIME; ON
18 PAGE 10, AT THE LAST FULL PARAGRAPH ON THE PAGE AND THE
19 LAST PARTIAL PARAGRAPH; AGAIN, ON PAGE 15, THE MEASURE
20 BEGINS; AND ON PAGE 45, AN ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF
21 CONSIDERATIONS HAD TO BE ADDED IN THE EVENT THAT --
22 BECAUSE THE WAY THIS MEASURE WORKS, IF THE DEL GAGNON
23 PROPERTY IS NOT ACQUIRED, THE MAP, SHOULD THE COUNCIL
24 CHOOSE TO APPROVE IT IN THE MANNER PROPOSED BY THE
25 APPLICANT, WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED, AND THAT WOULD CAUSE THE
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESE CITY COUNCIL MEETING
AUGUST 1, 1991
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5
EXHIBIT 'A'
16
1 IMPACTS AS IDENTIFIED IN THE RESOLUTION. AND THE
2 STATEMENT OF OVERRIDING CONSIDERATIONS IS PROVIDED FOR
3 THAT PROVISION.
4 I BELIEVE THAT THE CITY ATTORNEY HAS
5 PRESENTATIONS ON PORTIONS OF THIS MEASURE. AND THAT
6 COMPLETES MY COMMENTS.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
8 MR. PHILLIPS.
9 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: GOOD EVENING.
10 MR. MAYOR AND MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL.
11 I ONLY HAVE SOME VERY, I BELIEVE, MINOR
12 REVISIONS TO MAKE AND SUGGESTIONS TO MAKE. AND I BELIEVE,
13 DURING MY PRESENTATION, I MAY CALL UPON THE APPLICANT OR
14 HIS COUNSEL TO CONFIRM THAT THIS UNDERSTANDING THAT I'M
15 ABOUT TO READ INTO THE RECORD IS AGREEABLE TO THE
16 APPLICANT AND HIS COUNSEL.
17 IN PARTICULAR, ITEM NO. 20 ON PAGE 15 IS THE
18 PLACE THAT I AM CONCERNED WITH. LET ME BE MORE SPECIFIC.
19 YOU HAVE AN EXHIBIT A, WHICH CONTAINS CEQA FINDINGS, AND
20 IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, THEN TURN TO PAGE 15, ITEM NO. 20.
21 IT WOULD BE OUR RECOMMENDATION THAT ITEM 20
22 READ AS FOLLOWS:
23 "A RESERVATION AREA AS SHOWN
24 ON THE TENTATIVE TRACT MAP SHALL BE
25 IMPOSED ON TENTATIVE TRACT 25296 TO
MINUTES
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5
6
EXHIBIT "A"
1 EFFECTUATE A 400-YARD BUFFER, AS
2 RECOMMENDED BY THE CALIFORNIA
3 DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME, AS
4 MEASURED FROM THE 30-ACRE PEN OF THE
5 BIGHORN INSTITUTE IN A NORTH/NORTH-
6 EASTERLY DIRECTION. NO BUILDING OR
7 GRADING PERMITS SHALL ISSUE ON THE
8 PROPERTY SHOWN AS THE RESERVATION
9 AREA ON THE TENTATIVE TRACT MAP.
10 THE CITY RESERVES, HOWEVER, THE
11 ABILITY TO REVIEW AND POTENTIALLY
12 GRANT ANY APPLICATION FOR DEVELOP-
13 MENT APPROVAL OF PROPERTY WITHIN
14 THE BUFFER AREA OR RESERVATION AREA
15 OTHER THAN THE APPLICANT'S PROPERTY.
16 SUCH REVIEW SHALL BE IN ACCORD WITH
17 THE CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY
18 ACT AND ANY OTHER APPLICABLE MUNICIPAL,
19 STATE, OR FEDERAL LAW. THE CITY WILL
20 CONSIDER DENSITY TRANSFERS, TRANSFERS
21 OF DEVELOPMENT RIGHTS OR SIMILAR RELIEF
22 TO EASE ANY FINANCIAL BURDEN ON ANY
23 NONAPPLICANT PROPERTY OWNER AFFECTED
24 BY THE BUFFER OR RESERVATION AREA
25 CONDITION. THE APPLICANT SHALL
17
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2
3
4
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8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
FX111B1T ' A'
NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH TO PURCHASE THE
DEL GAGNON PROPERTY.
AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL OF
RESOLUTION 91-90 APPROVING TENTATIVE
MAP 25296 AND, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED
BY LAW AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL OF
ORDINANCE NO. 617 APPROVING
CHANGE OF ZONE 89-16, AND TO THE EXTENT
PROVIDED BY LAW AS A CONDITION OF
APPROVAL OF RESOLUTION NO. 91-89,
CONTAINING FINDINGS AND CERTIFYING
THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT WITH
RESPECT TO THIS PROJECT, THE DEVELOPER
HEREBY AGREES OR SHALL AGREE TO DEFEND,
AT ITS SOLE COST AND EXPENSE, INDEMNIFY
AND HOLD HARMLESS THE CITY OF PALM
DESERT, ITS AGENTS, OFFICERS AND EMPLOY-
EES FROM ANY CLAIM, ACTION, OR PROCEED-
ING FILED AGAINST THE CITY OF PALM DESERT,
ITS AGENTS, OFFICERS, AND EMPLOYEES AS
A RESULT OF THE LOCAL AGENCY'S APPROVAL
OF RESOLUTION NO. 91-90, ORDINANCE
NO. 617, AND RESOLUTION NO. 91-89,
INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ACTIONS OR
PROCEEDINGS TO ATTACK, SET ASIDE,
18
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DES1_ CITY COUNCIL ACTING AUST UG1, 1991
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EXHIBIT "A'
19
6 1 VOID, OR ANNUL SUCH APPROVAL OR ACTIONS
2 OR PROCEEDINGS THAT SEEK DAMAGES AS A
3 RESULT OF THE FINDING, REQUIREMENT OR
4 CONDITION THAT A RESERVATION AREA OR
5 BUFFER AREA BE ESTABLISHED, INCLUDING
6 ANY ACTION FOR INVERSE CONDEMNATION.
7 THE CITY OF PALM DESERT SHALL PROMPTLY
8 NOTIFY THE DEVELOPER OF ANY SUCH CLAIM,
9 ACTION, OR PROCEEDING, AND THE DEVELOPER
10 SHALL CONDUCT THE DEFENSE AND CONTROL IT,
11 AND THECITY OF PALM DESERT WILL
12 COOPERATE."
13 WHAT I'M BASICALLY SAYING HERE IS THAT THERE --
14 I WOULD BE MORE COMFORTABLE LEGALLY IF WE HAVE A FOUR --
15 WE HAVE AN ESTABLISHED BUFFER. AND BASED ON THE REPORT
16 FROM STAFF, OUR OFFICE, AS YOUR CITY ATTORNEY, WOULD BE
17 COMFORTABLE WITH A 400-YARD BUFFER. BUT THAT, OF COURSE,
18 IS ULTIMATELY FOR THE COUNCIL TO DECIDE. I'M JUST TELLING
19 YOU, LEGALLY, THAT'S OUR COMFORT ZONE.
20 I'LL ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.
21 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
22 MR. DIAZ.
23 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: IN TERMS OF STAFF
24 RECOMMENDATION AS INDICATED IN THE ORIGINAL REPORT AND OUR
25 RECOMMENDATION THAT WE HAD BEFORE, WE HAD SOME GRAVE
MIINIITES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEJ CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1,1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
20
1 CONCERNS REGARDING THE 400-YARD BUFFER. THOSE CONCERNS
2 HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED AND TAKEN CARE OF WITH THESE NEW
3 CONDITIONS AND ADDITIONAL INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN
4 PROVIDED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME.
5 FURTHER, THE 400-YARD BUFFER SEEMS TO CONCUR
6 WITH PREVIOUS AGREEMENTS WHICH HAD BEEN REACHED BY OTHER
7 PROPERTY OWNERS IN THE AREA AND THE INSTITUTE. SO,
8 THEREFORE, WE WOULD RECOMMEND THAT WE PROCEED WITH THE
9 400-YARD BUFFER AND THE INDEMNIFICATION AGREEMENTS AS HAVE
10 BEEN PRESENTED. AND I THINK. THIS GIVES A GOOD SOLUTION TO
11 A VERY COMPLEX AND SENSITIVE PROBLEM.
12 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, MR. DIAZ.
13 DOES THAT CONCLUDE THE CITY'S REPORT?
14 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: YES.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS BY THE COUNCIL
16 ABOUT THE CITY'S REPORT?
17 COUNCILMAN CRITES: AT ONE POINT DOES CITY STAFF
18 INTEND TO PRESENT WHAT I ASSUME IS THE REST OF THEIR
19 REPORT HAVING TO DEAL WITH ALL OF THE OTHER ISSUES? ONCE
20 WE HAVE REACHED WHATEVER DECISION IS REACHED CONCERNING
21 THE MATTER OF BUFFERS AND SO ON, IS IT AT THAT TIME THE
22 INTENTION OF CITY STAFF TO GO BACK AND THEN START THE
23 PROCESS OF TALKING ABOUT TRAFFIC, START THE PROCESS OF
24 TALKING ABOUT THE WASH, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, ET CETERA?
25 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: WE CAN ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT 'A'
21
6 1 NOW. WE FEEL THAT THEY ARE ADDRESSED WITHIN THE REPORT,
2 WITHIN THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT AND THE CONDITIONS
3 OF APPROVAL SET FORTH THEREIN.
4 IF THERE ARE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS THAT COUNCIL
5 HAS IN THOSE AREAS, WE CAN ADDRESS THEM AT THIS TIME.
6 COUNCILMAN CRITES: I'LL BE HAPPY TO WAIT UNTIL
7 LATER, THEN.
8 MAYOR SNYDER: ANY OTHER QUESTIONS BY THE COUNCIL?
9 IF NOT -- I'M SORRY.
10 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: AT SUCH A TIME I HATE TO BRING
11 UP SOMETHING AS INSIGNIFICANT AS RECYCLING, BUT IN ALL THE
12 READING I DID, I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING IN THE STAFF REPORT
13 ABOUT INCLUSION OF A RECYCLE PROGRAM.
14 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: PHIL, IS THAT CONDITION --
15 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.)
16 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: I'VE BEEN REMINDED BY THE
17 CITY ATTORNEY THAT IF THE CITY ORDINANCE REQUIRES IT, THAT
18 WE SHOULD -- AS WE HAVE INDICATED TO THE COUNCIL IN THE
19 PAST, WE'LL PULL THAT IN AS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL, THAT
20 THE APPLICANT ESTABLISH A RECYCLING PROGRAM TO MEET THE
21 CITY ORDINANCE AND THAT'S APPROVED BY OUR ENVIRONMENTAL
22 CONSERVATION OFFICES.
23 AND THAT CONDITION WILL BE ADDED TO THE -- AS
24 PART OF THE CONDITIONS. IT IS PART OF THE ORDINANCE NOW
25 AND IS REQUIRED, BUT WE WILL ADD IT TO THE RESOLUTION AS A
MINUTES
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6
7
22
1 CONDITION OF APPROVAL.
2 COUNCILMAN WILSON: A QUESTION REGARDING THE HILLSIDE
3 DEVELOPMENT. THE PROPOSED PLAN, AS WE HAD IT PRIOR TO THE
4 400-YARD BUFFER, CALLED FOR 59 UNITS IN THE HILLSIDE.
5 WILL THE BUFFER REDUCE THAT IN ANY WAY OR DOES -- DOES IT
6 STILL REMAIN THAT MANY UNITS?
7 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: AS I'M LOOKING AT MY PLAN, IT
8 WOULD ELIMINATE TWO UNITS THAT ARE SHOWN ON THE PLAN AS
9 BEING WITHIN THE 400-YARD BUFFER.
10 COUNCILMAN WILSON: TWO UNITS?
11 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: TWO UNITS.
12 THE -- IF I CAN GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT OF
13 HISTORY ON THIS, THE AREA THAT WAS SURROUNDING THE LAMBING
14 PENS OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE WERE DELIBERATELY LEFT FREE
15 OF RESIDENTIAL UNITS, AND A GOLF COURSE FAIRWAY WAS PLACED
16 IN THIS AREA TO PROVIDE MORE OF A BUFFER AREA BETWEEN ANY
17 KIND OF RESIDENCES AND THE LAMBING PENS.
18 ORIGINALLY, THE ORIGINAL PLAN THAT WAS HANDED
19 IN PLACED RESIDENCES IN VERY CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THE
20 SOUTHERN PROPERTY LINE. THE APPLICANT DID REVISE HIS
21 PLANS SO THAT THERE WOULD BE NO DEVELOPMENT OF ANY TYPE
22 WITHIN 200 FEET OF THE SOUTHERLY PROPERTY LINE. THE NEXT
23 250 FEET WOULD BE GOLF, AND PLACING THE FIRST RESIDENTIAL
24 UNIT 450 FEET AWAY FROM THE SOUTHERLY PROPERTY LINE.
25 COUNCILMAN WILSON: FOLLOW-UP QUESTION. THE STAFF
&MUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESI CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1,1991
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EXHIBIT "A"
23
1 KNOWS THE COUNCIL'S POLICY ON DISCOURAGING HILLSIDE
2 DEVELOPMENT, AND WHEN YOU HAVE A UNIT -- A DEVELOPMENT OF
3 THIS SIZE, 352 UNITS, OF WHICH A SMALL PORTION OF IT IS
4 HILLSIDE, HOW MUCH EFFORT WAS MADE BY OUR STAFF TO
5 DISCOURAGE DEVELOPMENT AND TO TRANSFER THAT DENSITY DOWN
6 INTO THE FLATLAND?
7 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: IN THIS TYPE OF SITUATION --
8 THE TRANSFER OF DENSITY OPTION WAS LOOKED AT, BUT WHAT
9 HAPPENS HERE IS THAT THE ENTIRE SITE IS CAPABLE OF 1450
10 UNITS, AND ONLY 350 WERE -- EXCUSE ME -- 450 WERE BEING
11 PROPOSED. AND SO ANY KIND OF DENSITY BONUS WHERE WE COULD
12 BE GIVING IT MORE DENSITY TO BUILD DOWN IN THE FLAT REALLY
13 WAS NOT NEEDED, BECAUSE HE'S ALREADY ALLOWED TO BUILD MANY
14 MORE UNITS DOWN IN THE FLAT AREA THAN WHAT'S BEING
15 PROPOSED.
16 COUNCILMAN WILSON: BUT WAS HE ENCOURAGED NOT TO
17 DEVELOP INTO THE HILLSIDES?
18 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: WHAT HE WAS ENCOURAGED TO DO
19 WAS TO FOLLOW THE CITY'S HILLSIDE ORDINANCE, AND THAT'S
20 THE EXTENT OF THAT.
21 COUNCILMAN WILSON: WHICH WAS DESIGNED TO TAKE CARE
22 OF SMALL PARCEL OWNERS, NOT LARGE SUBDIVISION
23 DEVELOPMENTS. IT WAS THE INTENT OF THAT ORDINANCE TO
24 DISCOURAGE HILLSIDE DEVELOPMENT.
25 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: MR. --
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEI CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
24
1 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: IF I MAY FOLLOW UP ON THAT, THE
2 WESTINGHOUSE PROPERTY ACROSS THE HIGHWAY HAS ABOUT, WHAT,
3 250 ACRES OF HILLSIDE?
4 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: A LITTLE BIT OVER 350 ACRES
5 OF HILLSIDE AREA.
6 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: 350.
7 AND HOW MANY UNITS DO THEY HAVE IN THE
8 HILLSIDE?
9 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: I THINK, INITIALLY, ALL 350
10 ACRES WERE SUPPOSED TO BE OPEN SPACE, AND THEY WERE
11 ALLOWED TO BUILD 28 HOMESITES AND ALSO PORTIONS OF THREE
12 GOLF COURSE HOLES IN THAT, SO --
13 COUNCILMAN CRITES: 28 HOMESITES INTO 350.
14 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: OKAY. THANK YOU.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS?
16 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: I JUST HAVE ONE ON THE
17 HILLSIDE. I SAW NOTHING IN THERE ON THE HEIGHT OF THE
18 HOMES IN THAT BUILDING. ALL I SAW WAS NEXT TO THE SUMMIT.
19 THERE WAS NO MENTION OF HEIGHT, LOCATION, OR HOW THOSE
20 HOMES WERE TO BE SITUATED. LIKE WE DID AT WESTINGHOUSE,
21 THEY WERE ALL HIDDEN FROM VIEW AND THEY WERE WITHIN A
22 CERTAIN HEIGHT. IS THAT IN THIS PROGRAM?
23 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: YES. IT'S OUR -- THE CITY'S
24 INTENTION TO REVIEW THESE THROUGH THE CITY'S ARCHITECTURAL
25 COMMITTEE. THE MAXIMUM BUILDING HEIGHT IS 15 FEET,
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DE T CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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7
EXHIBIT 'A'
25
1 BUILDING MATERIALS SHALL BE DESIGNED TO BLEND WITH THE
2 NATURAL ENVIRONMENT, AND FURTHER STIPULATIONS PLACED ON
3 THE HOUSES TO REDUCE ANY GLARE AND LIGHT SOURCES THAT MAY
4 IMPACT THE INSTITUTE.
5 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: BUT ALSO THE LOCATION OF THE
6 HOUSES SO THEY'RE NOT VISIBLE FROM THE HIGHWAY?
7 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: YEAH. IT SHOULD BE POINTED
8 OUT THAT, LIKE ON THE WESTINGHOUSE PROPERTY, THE HILLSIDE
9 LOTS THAT WERE APPROVED THERE RANGE FROM -- ANYWHERE FROM
10 100 TO 200 FEET ABOVE THE HIGHWAY.
11 IN THIS CASE, GOING STRAIGHT ACROSS, THE
12 HIGHEST PORTION OF THE HILLSIDE AREA IS SOMETHING LIKE 150
13 FEET BELOW THE HIGHWAY. SO THEY WOULD NOT BE VISIBLE FROM
14 THE HIGHWAY WHATSOEVER, ANY PORTION OF THESE HILLSIDE
15 AREAS.
16 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: WE MIGHT ALSO INDICATE THAT
17 IN THE CASE OF WESTINGHOUSE, WE STARTED OUT WITH ZERO AND
18 WENT FROM ZERO TO 28 -- YES, ON THE 350 ACRES. BUT WE DID
19 GO FROM ZERO TO 28.
20 IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THE HILLSIDE HPRD
21 ORDINANCE, OPTION 1 IS THE MOST RESTRICTIVE OPTION. THE
22 OPTIONS 2, 3, AND 4 WERE THOSE OPTIONS WHICH WE ADDED TO
23 TAKE CARE OF THOSE -- OF THOSE 5-ACRE PARCELS.
24 AND -- AND WE HAD -- THERE WERE MORE HILLSIDE
25 LOTS THAN WE HAVE ON THE MAP AT THE PRESENT TIME. PERHAPS
M NU'TES
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EXHIBIT "A"
26
1 THERE ARE -- TO SOME, OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE TOO MANY. TO
2 THE DEVELOPER, OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE TOO FEW.
3 BUT IN DIRECT ANSWER TO THE QUESTION, DID WE
4 DISCOURAGE? YES. DID WE DISCOURAGE ENOUGH? OBVIOUSLY,
5 TO SOME, THEY WOULD SAY NO; TO OTHERS, THEY WOULD SAY TOO
6 MUCH.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS BY THE COUNCIL?
8 IF NOT, THEN I'D LIKE TO ASK THE APPLICANT TO
9 PRESENT HIS --
10 MR. HAYHOE: THANK YOU, MR. MAYOR.
11 I DON'T KNOW. IS THIS MIKE WORKING?
12 MAYOR SNYDER: I HOPE SO. IS IT ON?
13 MR. HAYHOE: I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU TURN IT ON.
14 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.)
15 MR. HAYHOE: MR. MAYOR AND CITY COUNCIL, STAFF,
16 GUESTS.
17 MY NAME IS JIM HAYHOE, AND I'M THE DEVELOPER OF
18 THE PROPOSED PROJECT.
19 FIRST OF ALL, I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT WE'RE REAL
20 HAPPY TO BE HERE. I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS FOR FOUR
21 YEARS. BUT WE'RE NOT REAL HAPPY ABOUT BEING A PART OF THE
22 MOST CONTROVERSIAL PROJECT THAT'S COME TO PALM DESERT IN A
23 LONG TIME. I CAN ASSURE YOU, I TRIED VERY HARD TO AVOID
24 THAT BEFORE WE GOT INTO THIS THING. BUT NOW THAT WE'RE
25 HERE, WE'RE HERE, AND WE'D LIKE TO PRESENT OUR PROJECT TO
MINUTFS
ADJOURNED PALM DES I' CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
27
1 YOU.
2 WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON IT FOR FOUR AND A HALF
3 YEARS. WE ARE LOCAL DEVELOPERS, OUR OFFICE IS IN INDIAN
4 WELLS. IT'S LOCATED IN FOUR TRAILER OFFICES. WE HAVE 13
5 EMPLOYEES. AND OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, WE HAVE
6 AVERAGED SELLING 40 HOMES A YEAR.
7 CONTRARY TO SOME PUBLIC STATEMENTS THAT HAVE
8 BEEN MADE, WE ARE NOT A BIG DEVELOPER, WE'RE NOT -- WE
9 DON'T DO BUSINESS ANYPLACE OTHER THAN PALM DESERT AND
10 INDIAN WELLS.
11 AS YOU WILL HEAR, AS OUR PRESENTATION
12 PROGRESSES, WE DON'T WANT TO HARM THE SHEEP AT ALL. AND
13 YOU WILL HEAR ABOUT THINGS THAT WE HAVE DONE TO TRY TO
14 CONTRIBUTE SERIOUSLY TO THE SUCCESS OR THE
15 RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF THIS HERD, THE BIGHORN SHEEP, IN THE
16 SANTA ROSA MOUNTAINS. WE'RE VITALLY INTERESTED IN DOING
17 THAT. AND WE HAVE DONE THINGS TO PROVE THAT. IT'S NOT
18 JUST TALK.
19 THIS IS NOT A SITUATION OF ECONOMICS VERSUS
20 SHEEP OR BIG MONEY TRYING TO RUN THE SHEEP OVER THE HILL.
21 I CAN ASSURE YOU OF THAT. WE FEEL QUITE CONFIDENT THAT
22 BOTH WILL SURVIVE, GO ON, LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER IN THE
23 FUTURE.
24 AND, HOPEFULLY, THE INSTITUTE AND ITS WORK, IF
25 IT DOES ITS JOB, WILL RESULT IN THE HERD BEING
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESE) CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
28
1 RE-ESTABLISHED AND OUR PROJECT, HOPEFULLY, WILL FINISH OFF
2 THE SOUTH PALM DESERT AREA IN A WAY THAT EVERYBODY CAN BE
3 REAL PROUD OF.
4 I WOULD LIKE TO NOW TURN IT OVER TO OUR PEOPLE
5 TO MAKE THEIR PRESENTATION, WHICH WE WILL TRY TO BE BRIEF.
6 BUT THERE'S QUITE A BIT, BUT WE WILL TRY TO MAKE IT BRIEF.
7 AND I WOULD LIKE TO RESERVE ANY OTHER REMARKS I MIGHT HAVE
8 TILL THE END OF THE PUBLIC HEARING, IF THAT WOULD BE OKAY
9 WITH YOU.
10 AND SO WITH THAT, IF THERE'S NO QUESTIONS, I'LL
11 TURN IT OVER TO MR. RON WHITE.
12 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, MR. HAYHOE.
13 MR. HAYHOE: THANK YOU.
14 MR. WHITE: GOOD EVENING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
15 MY NAME IS RON WHITE, AND I'M REPRESENTING ALTA
16 MIRA VENTURES, THE OWNER OF THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT.
17 THIS EVENING WE'RE ASKING FOR YOUR APPROVAL, AS
18 THE STAFF HAS SAID, OF A ZONE CHANGE, A MASTER TENTATIVE
19 MAP AND FOCUSED ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT, WHICH WILL
20 ENABLE OUR PROJECT TO GO FORWARD.
21 TONIGHT WE'LL EXPLAIN ALTA MIRA'S DESIGN
22 FEATURES, AND WE'LL ALSO EXPLAIN HOW THE PROJECT RELATES
23 TO THE SENSITIVITY OF THE SITE AND HOW IT ACCOMMODATES THE
24 CONCERNS WHICH HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED FOR IT.
25 TO DO THAT, WE HAVE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE PRESENT
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESE CITY COUNCIL MEETING
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EXIEB1T 'A'
29
1 WHO HAVE CONTRIBUTED THEIR SUBSTANTIAL TALENTS TO THE
2 CREATION OF ALTA MIRA. THEY WILL DESCRIBE THEIR WORK. WE
3 WILL ALSO DEMONSTRATE HOW OUR PROJECT IS THE BEST
4 LOW -DENSITY ALTERNATIVE FOR PALM DESERT AND OUR NEIGHBORS.
5 AND HERE'S HOW WE'RE GOING TO DO THAT. WE'VE
6 OUTLINED THIS PRESENTATION FOR YOU THIS EVENING. WE'RE
7 GOING TO BEGIN, FIRST, IN THE INTRODUCTION SECTION, WITH A
8 PROJECT DESCRIPTION AND HISTORY. WE'RE THEN GOING TO
9 COVER THE LANDSCAPE AND DEVELOPMENT CONCEPT, DEAL WITH THE ,
10 VISUAL AND AESTHETICS ISSUES, INCLUDING THE HILLSIDE; AND
11 THEN TALK BRIEFLY ABOUT THE FINANCIAL BENEFITS TO THE
12 COMMUNITY. WE'RE ALSO GOING TO TALK, BECAUSE OF THE CEQA
13 IMPLICATIONS ON THE PROJECT, A BIT ABOUT CEQA COMPLIANCE.
14 THEN THE BIOLOGY. WE'RE GOING TO COVER FOUR
15 AREAS: THE DESERT TORTOISE, THE DESERT WASH, THE BIGHORN
16 SHEEP HABITAT AND THE BUFFER RELATIONSHIPS. WE'RE GOING
17 TO COVER ALL THE SETTLEMENT ATTEMPTS THAT WE'VE TRIED TO
18 MAKE, TALK ABOUT THE FAIRNESS OF THE DEMANDS, AND THEN, OF
19 COURSE, CONCLUSION.
20 THE ISSUES SURROUNDING ALTA MIRA HAVE BEEN
21 PORTRAYED AS COMPLEX, BUT THEY'RE REALLY NOT. AND WE'RE
22 GOING TO DO THE BEST WE CAN TONIGHT TO SIMPLIFY THEM FOR
23 YOU.
24 TO DATE, YOUR COUNCIL HAS NOT HAD THE
25 OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR THE ISSUES IN AN OVERALL CONTEXT. AND
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30
1 WE'LL TRY TO DO THAT TONIGHT AND ALSO PRESENT THOSE ISSUES
2 IN CONTRASTING WAYS TO HELP SORT OUT THE RUMORS FROM THE
3 FACTS. BECAUSE OF THE MANY ISSUES INVOLVED, IF YOU HAVE
4 QUESTIONS, IT WOULD CERTAINLY HELP US IF YOU WOULD ASK
5 THEM AS THEY OCCUR.
6 OUR PROJECT STARTED APPROXIMATELY 22 MONTHS
7 AGO. IN OCTOBER OF '89, WE FILED THE PLAN FOR THE FIRST
8 TIME WITH THE COUNTY. IT WENT THROUGH STAFF REVIEW, AND
9 AT THAT TIME THE STAFF RECOMMENDED APPROVAL. BUT WHEN THE
10 PLANNING COMMISSION TOOK A LOOK AT IT, THEY RECOMMENDED
11 THAT AN E.I.R. SHOULD BE DONE. WE SAID, "THAT'S FINE.
12 LET'S DO ONE."
13 THAT E.I.R. TOOK APPROXIMATELY EIGHT MONTHS TO
14 PREPARE. IT WENT BEFORE THE PLANNING COMMISSION IN JUNE
15 OF 1990, AND IT WAS RECOMMENDED BY THE COMMISSION FOR
16 APPROVAL BY YOUR COUNCIL.
17 BY SEPTEMBER OR OCTOBER, IT BECAME APPARENT TO
18 ALL PARTIES THAT THAT FIRST E.I.R. WAS DEFICIENT. MAINLY,
19 THE GROUNDS WERE PROCEDURAL AND LEGAL. AND IN NOVEMBER OF
20 1990, WE ORDERED A SECOND E.I.R.
21 THAT E.I.R. WAS PREPARED. IT'S BEFORE YOU
22 TONIGHT FOR CERTIFICATION. DURING THAT PROCESS, THE
23 PLANNING COMMISSION REVIEWED THE PROJECT AGAIN, AND AGAIN
24 RECOMMENDED IT FOR YOUR APPROVAL.
25 ALTA MIRA IS A PRIVATE COUNTRY CLUB DEVELOPMENT
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31
1 OF 450 UNITS LOCATED ON 352 ACRES. IT CONTAINS A VARIETY
2 OF HOUSING TYPES, INCLUDING DUPLEX HOMES, PATIO HOMES,
3 SINGLE-FAMILY HOMES, AND CUSTOM LOTS. IT CONTAINS A
4 CHAMPIONSHIP GOLF COURSE DESIGNED BY WORLD-RENOWNED GOLF
5 COURSE ARCHITECT TED ROBINSON, INCLUDING A
6 40,000-SQUARE-FOOT CLUBHOUSE. IT ALSO HAS A NUMBER OF
7 OTHER RECREATIONAL AMENITIES TYPICAL OF A RECREATIONAL
8 COUNTRY CLUB LIKE THIS. TED ROBINSON IS HERE THIS EVENING
9 TO DISCUSS THE GOLF COURSE WITH YOU.
10 IT'S LOCATED ON THE EASTERLY SIDE OF HIGHWAY 74
11 AND IT'S ALSO BOUNDED BY INDIAN HILLS, THE SUMMIT,
12 IRONWOOD, THE SANTA ROSA MOUNTAINS, THE SOUTHERN CITY
13 LIMITS, AND ACROSS THE CITY LIMITS IS THE BIGHORN
14 INSTITUTE. THIS AREA RIGHT IN HERE IS THE FUTURE
15 WESTINGHOUSE PROJECT.
16 PRIOR TO OUR INVOLVEMENT IN 1989, A CITY
17 GENERAL PLAN AMENDMENT CHANGED THE DESIGNATION FOR THE
18 PROPERTIES FROM AN AREA WHICH WOULD ALLOW 3,500 UNITS,
19 INCLUDING RESORTS AND HOTELS, TO THE CURRENT ZONING, WHICH
20 IS P.R.5, P.R.7, S.P., AND H.P.R.D. ALL COMBINED, THOSE
21 DENSITIES WOULD ALLOW CONSTRUCTION OF APPROXIMATELY 1350
22 HOMES. BUT WE ALL AGREE THAT THAT MANY HOMES IS NOT
23 APPROPRIATE FOR THE SITE NOR GOOD FOR THE SURROUNDING
24 COMMUNITIES. WE'RE PROPOSING ONLY 450 UNITS IN A DENSITY
25 OF 1.3.
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9 1 WHEN WE STARTED THE DESIGN OF ALTA MIRA, THE
2 PRINCIPAL GOAL OF OURS WAS THE COMPATIBILITY WITH THE
3 SURROUNDING NEIGHBORS AND THE NATURAL FEATURES OF ITS
4 LOCATION. WE THINK WE'VE ACHIEVED THAT GOAL.
5 AND I'VE ASKED RON GREGORY, THIS EVENING, TO
6 SPEND A FEW MOMENTS TO EXPLAIN THE FEATURES OF THE SITE
7 AND ALSO THE UNIQUE DEVELOPMENT CONCEPT THAT WE'VE
8 DEVELOPED.
9 RON.
10 MR. GREGORY: MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE CITY COUNCIL,
11 CITY STAFF.
12 MY NAME IS RON GREGORY. I AM PROJECT LANDSCAPE
13 ARCHITECT. MY OFFICE IS LOCATED AT 73-960 HIGHWAY 111 IN
14 PALM DESERT.
15 I'D LIKE TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE MORE IMPORTANT
16 ASPECTS OF THE LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTURAL APPROACH TO THIS
17 PROJECT, AND I'LL DO MY BEST TO KEEP IT PRETTY SHORT.
18 OUR DESIGN WILL BE VERY MUCH A DESERT -SENSITIVE
19 DESIGN. MUCH LIKE THE BIGHORN DEVELOPMENTMENT ACROSS THE
20 STREET, WE WILL BE USING NATIVE DESERT MATERIAL. BUT
21 UNLIKE THE BIGHORN DEVELOPMENT, WE WILL BE USING
22 INDIGENOUS DESERT MATERIAL AND ALSO AS OUR THEMATIC
23 PLANNING THROUGHOUT THE SITE.
24 IS THIS MICROPHONE WORKING OKAY?
25 MAYOR SNYDER: YES. WE HEAR YOU.
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33
1 DOES EVERYBODY HEAR -- CAN YOU HEAR IN THE
2 BACK?
3 ALL RIGHT. IT'S WORKING FINE.
4 MR. GREGORY: OKAY. SOME OF THE TREES THAT WE'LL BE
5 USING AS A THEMATIC MATERIAL THROUGHOUT THE PROJECT WILL
6 INCLUDE OUR NATIVE BLUE PALO VERDE, SMOKE TREES,
7 MESQUITES, CALIFORNIA FAN PALMS, AND DESERT WILLOW. WE'LL
8 BE USING THESE TREES THROUGHOUT THE DIFFERENT ZONES OF THE
9 PROJECT, WHICH I'LL GET INTO IN A LITTLE WHILE, AS A MEANS
10 OF TYING ALL ZONES TOGETHER.
11 WE'RE VERY MUCH AWARE THAT, JUST LIKE BIGHORN,
12 ALTA MIRA IS A GATEWAY TO THE CITY OF PALM DESERT. AND WE
13 WILL BE VERY SENSITIVE TO THAT FACT.
14 AT THIS POINT I'D LIKE TO GO THROUGH SOME OF
15 THE BOARDS THAT WE HAVE. RON WILL HELP ASSIST ME IN THE
16 SENSE THAT I'D LIKE TO SHOW IT TO THE CITY COUNCIL FIRST,
17 AND THEN HE CAN TURN AND SHOW IT TO THE PEOPLE WATCHING IN
18 THE AUDIENCE.
19 I'LL HAVE TO YELL.
20 THIS IS AN AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING DOWN
21 TOWARDS THE ALTA MIRA DEVELOPMENT FROM THE SOUTH, LOOKING
22 SLIGHTLY EAST. YOU CAN SEE HIGHWAY 74 RUNNING THROUGH
23 HERE WITH THE BIGHORN DEVELOPMENT TO THE WEST AND THE
24 PROPOSED WESTINGHOUSE RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENTS OVER HERE
25 ON THE EAST SIDE OF 74. TO THE NORTH IS THE SUMMIT AND TO
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10 1 THE EAST IS THE IRONWOOD COUNTRY CLUB DEVELOPMENT.
2 WE HAVE -- THIS IS ANOTHER VIEW OF THE PROJECT
3 FROM THE WEST, LOOKING TOWARDS THE EAST. AND IN THIS
4 CASE, WE'VE HAD THE PROJECT THROUGH AN ARTIST'S --
5 COUNCILMAN CRITES: RON, IF YOU'D WALK DOWN AND JUST
6 TURN THE MIKE, YOU CAN STILL SEE US AND FLIP THE MIKE, AND
7 EVERYBODY AT LEAST WILL HEAR WHAT THEY'RE NOT LOOKING AT.
8 MAYOR SNYDER: DOES THE PORTABLE MIKE NOT WORK?
9 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: THE PORTABLE MIKE DOES NOT
10 WORK.
11 MAYOR SNYDER: OKAY.
12 MR. GREGORY: HERE WE HAVE AN ARTIST'S RENDERING OF
13 WHAT THE PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT WILL LOOK LIKE. THIS IS
14 FROM THE WEST, LOOKING TOWARDS THE EAST. AGAIN, YOU CAN
15 SEE THE WESTINGHOUSE BIGHORN DEVELOPMENT ON THE WEST SIDE
16 OF 74 AND, IN THIS BEIGE AREA, THE PROPOSED WESTINGHOUSE
17 RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT.
18 AS YOU CAN SEE, ALTA MIRA IS AN INFILL
19 DEVELOPMENT. WE ARE WORKING WITH ONE OF THE REMAINING
20 OPEN SPACE AREAS ON THE SOUTH END OF TOWN.
21 IT'S HARD TO SEE FROM WHERE YOU'RE AT, BUT OUR
22 LANDSCAPE APPROACH WILL BE PRIMARILY A WATER -EFFICIENT
23 DESIGN. AND THOSE AREAS ARE DENOTED OUTSIDE THE GOLF
24 COURSE FAIRWAYS AS -- AGAIN, IT'S HARD TO SEE -- SOME OF
25 THE MORE BROWNISH AREAS.
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10 1 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: COULD YOU DO ONE THING FOR ME?
2 MR. GREGORY: YES.
3 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: ON THAT FIRST PRINT UNDER THAT
4 ONE AND THEN ON THIS ONE, ALSO, JUST MAKE A -- TAKE YOUR
5 FINGER ACROSS THERE AND SHOW ME WHERE THE 400-YARD BUFFER
6 WOULD GO.
7 MR. GREGORY: RIGHT HERE. WE HAVE A BOARD WHICH
8 SHOWS THAT.
9 MR. WHITE: IT WOULD START RIGHT HERE, AND IT WOULD
10 EXTEND RIGHT THROUGH HERE TO RIGHT THERE. SEE, THIS IS
11 THE EDGE RIGHT HERE, AT THE WESTINGHOUSE PROPERTY. AND
12 THEN IT COMES ACROSS AND IT HITS RIGHT ABOUT HERE.
13 MAYOR SNYDER: PERHAPS, JUST FOR THE AUDIENCE'S SAKE,
14 IF YOU WOULD SHOW THE ONE THAT YOU JUST SHOWED US.
15 NO, NOT THAT, BECAUSE THE OTHER WILL COME UP IN
16 A MINUTE.
17 MR. GREGORY: I'D LIKE TO SHOW THIS ONE HERE.
18 MAYOR SNYDER: YEAH.
19 MR. WHITE: THE BUFFER WOULD START RIGHT ABOUT HERE,
20 AND IT WOULD EXTEND RIGHT THROUGH HERE TO RIGHT ABOUT
21 HERE, IN THIS GENERAL AREA.
22 MAYOR SNYDER: NOW, PERHAPS, JUST A BRIEF OF THE
23 SECOND PICTURE, IF YOU MIGHT GIVE THEM A QUICK SHOT OF
24 WHAT YOU JUST SHOWED US. THE ONE IN YOUR HAND.
25 MR. GREGORY: OKAY. I HAVEN'T GONE OVER THIS ONE
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10 1 YET.
2 MAYOR SNYDER: OH. THIS IS A NEW ONE.
3 MR. GREGORY: THIS IS A NEW ONE.
4 MAYOR SNYDER: QUICK CHANGE ARTIST. YOU'RE PRETTY
5 QUICK.
6 MR. GREGORY: THIS BOARD SHOWS A VIEWSHED ANALYSIS
7 FROM HIGHWAY 74. AREAS WHICH ARE NOT IMPACTED -- IN OTHER
8 WORDS, AREAS WHICH YOU WON'T SEE FROM HIGHWAY 74 ARE NOT
9 COLORED. AND WHEN VIEWED FROM 74, YOU CAN SEE THAT MOST
10 OF THE PROJECT, BECAUSE IT IS SIGNIFICANTLY BELOW THE
11 GRADE OF HIGHWAY 74, WILL NOT BE SEEN.
12 SO THAT UNLIKE BIGHORN -- WE HAVE ANOTHER
13 CROSS-SECTION HERE. UNLIKE BIGHORN, ALTHOUGH PARTS OF
14 THIS COULD BE INTERPRETED AS A HILLSIDE DEVELOPMENT,
15 BECAUSE IT LIES LOWER THAN HIGHWAY 74, IT REALLY WON'T BE
16 PERCEIVED AS THAT.
17 I'D LIKE TO SHOW A CROSS-SECTION. WE PREPARED
18 A CROSS-SECTION ALONG THE SOUTHERNMOST PORTION OF THE
19 PROJECT WHERE WE INTERSECT RESIDENTIAL AREAS. AND I'LL
20 SHOW YOU THAT ON THE SITE PLAN. THAT'S RIGHT ACROSS HERE.
21 WHAT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SHOW HERE IS THAT AT
22 THE POINT WHERE THIS LINE INTERSECTS HIGHWAY 74, THE GRADE
23 OF HIGHWAY 74 IS 880 FEET. THE LOWEST POINT IS 110 FEET
24 BELOW THE POINT ON HIGHWAY 74.
25 OTHER AREAS WHICH INCLUDE RESIDENCES ARE, FOR
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10 1 EXAMPLE, A-10, WHICH IS 70 FEET BELOW HIGHWAY 74. AND
2 WE'RE TRYING TO SHOW THIS TO YOU TO SHOW THAT THIS IS
3 REALLY DOWN. IT'S NOT REALLY A HILLSIDE WHEN VIEWED FROM
4 74.
5 COUNCILMAN CRITES: ARE YOU SUGGESTING, THEN, THAT
6 THE DEFINITION OF HILLSIDE SHOULD DEPEND UPON VIEWAGE FROM
7 HIGHWAY 74, RON?
8 MR. GREGORY: NO. I'M JUST USING THAT AS A POINT OF
9 REFERENCE. THAT WOULD BE A VIEW LOOKING THIS WAY FROM 74.
10 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: COULD I SEE THAT ONE -- COULD
11 YOU BRING THAT ONE UP A LITTLE CLOSER?
12 MR. GREGORY: THIS IS THE PROJECT AND THIS IS
13 WESTINGHOUSE AND THIS IS HIGHWAY 74.
14 MAYOR SNYDER: VERY WELL DONE. BEAUTIFUL.
15 MR. GREGORY: THANK YOU.
16 OUR LANDSCAPE APPROACH HAS BEEN TO DIVIDE THE
17 PROJECT INTO DIFFERENT ZONES. STARTING AT THE
18 SOUTHERNMOST PORTION, THE AREA COLORED BROWN ON THIS PLAN,
19 WE HAVE CALLED THAT A HILLSIDE RESERVE. THIS AREA IS TO
20 BE UNDISTURBED, AND THERE WILL BE NO NEED FOR US TO MAKE
21 ANY CHANGES, NOR DO WE WISH TO, IN THE EXISTING NATIVE
22 LANDSCAPE.
23 AS WE WORK DOWN TOWARDS -- A LITTLE BIT NORTH,
24 WE WILL ALSO BE PLANNING INDIGENOUS PLANT MATERIAL TO MAKE
25 SURE THAT WE WILL DO EVERYTHING AS WELL AS WE CAN POSSIBLY
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38
1 DO IT.
2 WE'VE ENGAGED THE SERVICES OF RUTH WATLING, WHO
3 WILL BE CONSULTING WITH US. AND AT THIS POINT I'D LIKE TO
4 ASK RUTH TO COME AND SPEAK TO YOU ABOUT THE TYPES OF
5 NATIVE MATERIAL WE WILL BE USING.
6 FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW, RUTH WORKED
7 FOR TEN YEARS AS CURATOR OF GARDENS AT THE LIVING DESERT
8 AND WORKED ACTIVELY IN RESEARCH AND DESIGN WITH NATIVE
9 PLANT MATERIAL. SHE WAS ALSO A CONSULTANT TO THE BIGHORN
10 PROJECT.
11 RUTH.
12 MS. WATLING: THANK YOU.
13 THE TYPES OF PLANTS THAT WE'LL BE WORKING WITH
14 ON THE SITE ARE THE NATIVE PLANTS THAT ARE INDIGENOUS AND
15 ARE ON THE SITE NOW, SUCH AS SMOKE TREES, PALO VERDES, THE
16 DESERT LAVENDER, CATCLAW ACACIA, THE INDIGO BUSH WITH THE
17 PURPLE BLOSSOMS, CHUPAROSA, BRITTLEBUSH, DESERT WILLOW,
18 AND MANY OF THE SMALLER PLANTS. THERE WILL BE MINIMUM
19 DISTURBANCE OF THESE PLANTS IN THE SOUTHERN AREA OF THE
20 PROJECT.
21 THERE IS -- THE DISTURBED AREAS WILL BE DEALT
22 WITH WITH THE DEVEGETATION OR REVEGETATION PROCESS THAT
23 WESTINGHOUSE BROUGHT TO PALM DESERT. FOR THOSE OF YOU
24 UNFAMILIAR WITH THAT, WHICH IS NEARLY EVERYBODY, IT'S A
25 NEW PROCESS IN CALIFORNIA. THE PLANTS ARE BOXED IN THE
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1 GROUND, HELD FOR A GIVEN AMOUNT OF TIME, THEN -- THE
2 BOTTOMS ARE BOXED, THE PLANTS ARE REMOVED AND PUT IN
3 HOLDING, AND THEN THEY'RE ESTABLISHED ON THE SITE. AND IN
4 THIS WAY, WE CAN PRESERVE A GREAT DEAL OF THE NATURAL
5 HABITAT.
6 THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE DRIVEN PAST THE
7 WESTINGHOUSE ENTRANCE CAN SEE THE HUGE PALO VERDES THERE.
8 WE'VE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT BEFORE IN CALIFORNIA, AND
9 WE CAN NOW. SO I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN
10 CONSIDERING THE LANDSCAPING OF THIS PROJECT.
11 THERE ALSO HAS BEEN A STUDY DEMONSTRATING THAT
12 ENHANCING THE NATIVE PLANTS, SUCH AS WE'LL DO IN THE WASH
13 AREAS THERE, PUTTING THE TREES BACK, PRESERVING THOSE THAT
14 ARE NOT IN THE WAY OF SOME TYPE OF BUILDING, AND
15 INSTITUTING IRRIGATION SO THAT THE PLANTS ARE IN A
16 HEALTHIER, STURDIER STATE MOST OF THE YEAR WILL INCREASE
17 THE BIRD POPULATION.
18 AND I HAVE A COPY OF A REPORT. IF YOU'RE
19 INTERESTED IN THAT, I CAN GET IT TO YOU THIS WEEK, SHOWING
20 ACTUAL FIGURES ON THAT, WHERE THEY'VE BEEN DOING THIS IN
21 ARIZONA FOR QUITE SOME TIME. SO I THINK RATHER THAN
22 HAVING A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THE WILDLIFE POPULATION, IT
23 REALLY WILL INCREASE THE POPULATION.
24 AND I WILL WORK WITH THE ECOLOGICAL CONSULTANTS
25 ON THE PROJECT AS WELL IN THE WASH AREAS. I KNOW THAT'S
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1 AN AREA OF PARTICULAR CONCERN, BUT IT'S SOMETHING WE KNOW
2 HOW TO DEAL WITH AND CAN DEAL WITH WELL.
3 ESSENTIALLY, MY EXPERIENCE ON THE WESTINGHOUSE
4 PROJECT HAS BEEN THAT I STARTED OUT AS ANTIDEVELOPMENT.
5 AND THAT'S NO PARTICULAR SECRET, BUT I'VE SEEN WHAT REALLY
6 CAN BE DONE WITH CARE AND CONSIDERATION, AND I THINK IT
7 WILL HAPPEN HERE.
8 RON WILL GO ON WITH THE REST OF THE PROJECT.
9 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
10 MR. GREGORY: THERE ARE TWO MORE ZONES THAT I WOULD
11 LIKE TO REVIEW. THEY ARE WHAT WE WOULD CALL DESERT
12 TRANSITIONAL. I'LL JUST SHOW YOU BRIEFLY.
13 IT WILL BE MOVING UP IN THIS AREA RIGHT HERE.
14 THE DESERT TRANSITIONAL AREA WILL UTILIZE PLANT MATERIAL
15 NOT NECESSARILY FROM THIS DESERT AREA. THIS WILL INCLUDE
16 PLANT MATERIAL BROUGHT IN FROM ARIZONA AND OTHER DESERT
17 REGIONS OF SIMILAR CLIMATE.
18 AND OUR REASON FOR DOING THIS IS BECAUSE WE
19 WOULD LIKE TO PROVIDE AS MUCH COLOR, ESPECIALLY IN
20 WINTERTIME, AS POSSIBLE. AND USING A LARGER PALATE OF
21 PLANT MATERIAL WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR US TO DO THAT.
22 AS WE MOVE FARTHER NORTH ON THE PROJECT, WE'LL
23 GET MORE INTO WHAT WE CALL A CONTEMPORARY WATER -EFFICIENT
24 LANDSCAPE. AND BY THAT, WE MEAN A WATER -EFFICIENT,
25 DRIP -IRRIGATED LANDSCAPE USING COMPARATIVELY LITTLE LAWN
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12
EXTIIBIT 'A'
41
1 COMPARED TO MOST OF THE DEVELOPMENTS IN THIS AREA, AND
2 ALSO MINIMAL USE OF ANNUAL FLOWERS. OUR REASON IS TO
3 MAXIMIZE THE USE OF DRIP IRRIGATION. AND THIS IS IN OUR
4 ATTEMPT TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF WATER CONSUMPTION BY AS
5 MUCH AS 60 PERCENT OVER THE TYPICAL COUNTRY CLUB
6 DEVELOPMENT IN THIS AREA.
7 I'M WONDERING, AT THIS POINT, IF YOU HAVE ANY
8 QUESTIONS REGARDING OUR LANDSCAPE APPROACH. WE HAVE
9 PREPARED SEVERAL PHOTOGRAPH BOARDS, WHICH I PUT BEHIND YOU
10 IN CASE YOU HAVE TIME LATER IN THIS MEETING TO TAKE A
11 LOOK. WE HAVE BOARDS RANGING FROM INDIGENOUS PLANT USE TO
12 IMPORTED DESERT MATERIALS.
13 WE ALSO HAVE BOARDS ON WASH AREAS RUNNING FROM
14 THE HIGHER POINTS, WHICH WOULD BE USING INDIGENOUS
15 MATERIALS, DOWN TO LOWER, MORE RIPARIAN AREAS.
16 I APPRECIATE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK WITH
17 YOU. THANKS.
18 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
19 COUNCILMAN WILSON: RON, I HAVE A QUESTION.
20 COULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO
21 DO IN THAT BEAUTIFUL NATURAL WASH AREA THAT EXISTS WITH
22 ALL THE SMOKE TREES AT THE PRESENT TIME? HOW ARE YOU
23 GOING TO TREAT THAT AREA? I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU'RE GOING
24 TO ATTEMPT TO RECREATE THAT OR --
25 MR. GREGORY: IT IS OUR INTENT TO RECREATE IT. WITH
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12 1 THE RECONSTRUCTED WASH AREA THAT WE WILL BE DEVELOPING,
2 WE'LL HAVE FOUR TRIBUTARIES LEADING INTO THE WASH AREA.
3 AS THE NATURAL WASH WOULD WORK, THE UPPER AREAS WOULD BE
4 HANDLED WITH SMOKE TREES, OTHER TYPES OF MATERIALS WHICH
5 UTILIZE VERY LITTLE WATER.
6 COUNCILMAN WILSON: COULD YOU POINT TO THAT AND
7 REFRESH MY MEMORY WHERE THAT WASH IS?
8 MR. GREGORY: THE WASH IS RIGHT HERE, AND THE
9 TRIBUTARIES RUN HERE, HERE, HERE, AND HERE. FOUR
10 TRIBUTARIES.
11 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: DOESN'T THE WASH GO DOWN?
12 MR. GREGORY: IT GOES THIS WAY.
13 COUNCILMAN WILSON: ALL RIGHT. AND HOW MUCH OF IT
14 ARE YOU GOING TO -- WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO RECREATE IT?
15 MR. GREGORY: I REALLY DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHICH PARTS
16 ARE RECREATED AND WHICH PARTS ARE NOT. I'LL GO BACK TO
17 THE MIKE.
18 WE WILL WORK, WHETHER IT'S RECREATED OR -- LIKE
19 EXISTING OR NEW, IT WILL BE HANDLED SO THAT THE ULTIMATE
20 EFFECT WILL BE ONE THAT WILL BE OF A WASH THAT WAS THERE
21 FOR MANY YEARS. I MEAN IT WILL HAVE A VERY ATTRACTIVE
22 LOOK TO IT AND IT WILL BE RIGHT.
23 COUNCILMAN CRITES: LET ME TRY A DIFFERENT WAY OF
24 ASKING THE SAME QUESTION.
25 MR. GREGORY: OKAY.
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EXHIIBIT 'A'
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L2 1 COUNCILMAN CRITES: ONE HUNDRED PERCENT, WHATEVER
2 THAT NUMBER OF ACREAGE IS AT THE MOMENT, OF WASH AREA,
3 INCLUDING THE TRIBUTARIES, WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THAT WILL BE
4 AS IT IS NOW, NOT NEW AND IMPROVED WITH A GOLF COURSE OR
5 HOME SITES AND ALL THE REST OF THAT?
6 MR. GREGORY: I'M REALLY THE WRONG PERSON TO ASK.
7 PERHAPS MARK RAYMOND, WHO IS AN ECOLOGIST WITH S.W.C.A. --
8 THEY'RE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSULTANTS. HE WOULD BE MORE OF AN
9 APPROPRIATE PERSON TO ASK THAT QUESTION TO. IF YOU WOULD
10 LIKE, I CAN HAVE MARK COME UP RIGHT NOW.
11 COUNCILMAN CRITES: I'LL ASK A DIFFERENT ONE, THEN.
12 THE REQUIREMENTS THAT YOU HAVE IN TERMS OF
13 LANDSCAPING AND SO ON, ARE THOSE PRESENT IN A CC&R SO THAT
14 THEY ALSO APPLY TO INDIVIDUAL HOMEOWNERS?
15 MR. GREGORY: YES, THEY WOULD.
16 COUNCILMAN CRITES: OKAY. AND HAS THAT BEEN DRAWN UP
17 AND ENTERED INTO YET SO THAT CAN BECOME A PART OF THE
18 DOCUMENTS OF THIS PROJECT?
19 MR. GREGORY: I DON'T BELIEVE -- TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IT
20 HASN'T BEEN DRAWN UP YET, BUT I AM VERY CONCERNED THAT IT
21 WILL BE, BECAUSE THE PROJECT MUST BE COHESIVE. AND A
22 RESIDENCE WHICH IS CLEARLY OUT OF PLACE WITH THE LANDSCAPE
23 PALATE WOULD NOT BE AN ASSET TO THE DEVELOPMENT. SO IT'S
24 IN OUR INTEREST THAT THE PROJECT IS COHESIVE, TO ME.
25 COUNCILMAN CRITES: I SEE. IN THE SAME LIGHT,
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44
12 1 YOU'RE, IN ESSENSE, TALKING ABOUT ZONAL PLANTING HERE.
2 MR. GREGORY: RIGHT.
3 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THE CONDITION OF APPROVAL OR THE
4 MITIGATION MEASURE IN THE STAFF REPORT SIMPLY SAYS THAT
5 PLANTS NATIVE TO THE VALLEY SHALL BE UTULIZED. AND THAT'S
6 A VERY --
7 MR. GREGORY: IT'S PRETTY LOOSE.
8 COUNCILMAN CRITES: TWO SMOKE TREES CONSTITUTE
9 APPROVAL OF THAT.
10 HAVE THE SPECIFICS OF WHAT YOU HAVE PROPOSED
11 HERE BEEN ENTERED INTO WRITING, AND ARE THEY A PART OF THE
12 CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL OF THIS PROJECT?
13 MR. GREGORY: BOY, I DON'T -- ARE YOU ASKING THAT OF
14 ME OR OF THE CITY STAFF?
15 COUNCILMAN CRITES: START WITH YOU.
16 MR. GREGORY: WELL, I'LL START. I'LL TRY.
17 OUR INTENTION, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, IS TO
18 DEVELOP A THEMATIC LANCSCAPE, WHERE WE'LL BE USING DESERT
19 TREES IN PARTICULAR BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE MOST NOTICEABLE
20 PLANT TYPES THROUGHOUT THE DEVELOPMENT. SO THAT WHETHER
21 IT'S ON THE HIGHEST PART OR THE LOWEST PART OF THE
22 DEVELOPMENT, YOU WILL HAVE THE SAME MATERIALS RUNNING
23 THROUGH.
24 WE WOULD, OF COURSE, LIKE TO USE NATIVE SHRUB
25 MATERIAL AND, WHERlE POSSIBLE, GROUND COVERS AS WELL, WHERE
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12 1 PRACTICAL. BUT THERE WILL BE AREAS WHERE I CAN'T USE THEM
2 EVERYWHERE, ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEMPORARY LANDSCAPE AREA.
3 WHEN I SAY "CONTEMPORARY," I MEAN WE WILL BE
4 USING SOME MATERIALS WHICH ARE CLASSIFIED AS SUBTROPICAL,
5 BUT OF A WATER -EFFICIENT TYPE. EVERY MATERIAL THAT WE
6 WILL USE ON THIS PROJECT WILL BE CLASSIFIED AS
7 WATER -EFFICIENT. EVERY PLANT WILL BE SEPARATELY
8 DRIP -IRRIGATED.
9 AND OUR OFFICE HAS RECENTLY COMPLETED -- THE
10 PROJECT IS ALMOST FINISHED -- THE MISSION HILLS NORTH
11 DEVELOPMENT IN RANCHO MIRAGE, WHERE EVERY SINGLE PLANT ON
12 THE GOLF COURSE IS SEPARATELY DRIP -IRRIGATED. THAT
13 RESULTED IN OVER 60,000 EMITTERS. NO SPRAY HEADS.
14 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THE LAST QUESTION ON THAT. IF
15 YOU TOOK, AGAIN, 100 PERCENT AS THE AMOUNT OF TURF ON THE
16 TRADITIONAL ROLL -OUT OF GOLF COURSE KIND OF DEVELOPMENT AS
17 VERSUS ONES THAT TEND TO MIX TURF IN WITH NATIVE PLANTINGS
18 AND WHAT HAVE YOU, WHAT PERCENTAGE FROM THAT INITIAL 100
19 PERCENT WOULD WE FIND HERE AS TURF?
20 MR. GREGORY: TO BE ON THE SAFE SIDE, I'M GOING TO
21 GIVE YOU A LIBERAL FIGURE OF 30 PERCENT. SO THAT WOULD BE
22 OUR HIGH -END FIGURE COMPARED TO A NORMAL OASIS -STYLE
23 DEVELOPMENT IN THIS AREA. SO WE WILL BE USING 30 PERCENT
24 OR LESS THAN 100 PERCENT OF THE NORMAL PROJECT.
25 COUNCILMAN CRITES: SO A 70-PERCENT REDUCTION?
13
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13 1 MR. GREGORY: THAT'S ANOTHER WAY TO PUT IT. RIGHT.
2 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THANK YOU, SIR.
3 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
4 MR. WHITE: THANK YOU.
5 I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO TWO POINTS, QUESTIONS
6 YOU HAD. ON THE ACTUAL CONTENT OF THE GOLF COURSE, WE
7 HAVE TED ROBINSON HERE. AND HE CAN ANSWER THAT, PERHAPS,
8 IN MORE INFORMATION.
9 THE FINAL LANDSCAPE MATERIAL -- IT IS OUR
10 INTENT TO DEVELOP A THREE -STAGE LANDSCAPE CONCEPT, AS
11 DESCRIBED TONIGHT, RELYING ON OUR REPRESENTATIONS TO YOU
12 AND THE COURT TRANSCRIPT OF THAT THAT WILL EVENTUALLY BE.
13 WE ALSO HAVE CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL THAT
14 REQUIRE US TO BRING THAT PLAN TO GET CITY APPROVAL ON IT
15 AND ALSO TO HAVE THE CC&R'S REQUIRED FOR THE SITE.
16 HILLSIDE. YOU'RE GOING TO SEE A LITTLE QUICK
17 ANSWER HERE ON THAT. THIS IS CALLED DRAW AS YOU LEARN, SO
18 I GUESS -- STICK WITH ME HERE FOR A SECOND.
19 WHAT I'VE DONE IS PUT THE TENTATIVE MAP UP HERE
20 RIGHT NEXT TO THE ILLUSTRATIVE CONCEPT SITE PLAN. AND I'D
21 LIKE TO START BY GOING BACK OVER THIS ILLUSTRATIVE HERE
22 THAT RON SHOWED A SECOND AGO.
23 WHEN WE SET OUT TO DEVELOP THE DESIGN THEME FOR
24 ALTA MIRA, WE LOOKED AT THE SITE'S NATURAL
25 CHARACTERISTICS. THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT REALLY
1
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47
13 1 STRUCK US ABOUT IT.
2 THE FIRST IS, IT'S BASICALLY A FLAT SITE. IT
3 REALLY IS AN EXTENSION OF THIS SANDY PLAIN DOWN THROUGH
4 HERE. BUT IT'S A SITE THAT'S SET IN THE FOREGROUND OF THE
5 BEAUTIFUL OUTCROPS OF THE SANTA ROSA MOUNTAINS. THAT
6 MOUNTAIN FORM IS CHARACTERIZED BY TWO MAIN THINGS -- THREE
7 MAIN THINGS: A VERY LARGE RIDGE THAT'S 1800 FEET TALL,
8 AND VERY STRONG RIDGE FORMS COME DOWN INTO THE PROJECT AT
9 VARIOUS SELECTED LOCATIONS, MAKING FOR STRONG DESIGN
10 THEMES.
11 SO WHAT WE DID, WE SAID, "LET'S DESIGN THIS AS
12 A TRANSITION BETWEEN THE COACHELLA VALLEY AND THE SANTA
13 ROSA MOUNTAINS." THAT'S WHAT LED US TO DESIGN THE
14 LANDSCAPE THEME OF THE PROJECT.
15 AT THE LOWER END, SOMETHING WATER -EFFICIENT,
16 BUT MORE OF THE CHARACTER THAT YOU WOULD EXPECT TO SEE
17 COMPATIBLE WITH SURROUNDING NEIGHBORHOODS. AND AS YOU
18 MOVE INTO THE MORE SOUTHERN AREAS OF THE SITE, TRANSITION
19 TO NATIVE MATERIAL, VERY APPROPRIATE FOR A NATURAL -DESIGN
20 COURSE AND DEVELOPMENT. TED WILL TALK ABOUT THAT IN JUST
21 A MOMENT.
22 THE MESSAGE HERE IS THAT THE WHOLE SITE SLOPES
23 TO THE BASE OF THE HILLS HERE, AND THEN GOES UP SLIGHTLY
24 ON THIS LITTLE ALLUVIAL PLAIN, WHICH YOU CAN SEE LAYS IN
25 HERE ON TOP OF, IN THE FOREGROUND OF THIS RIDGE. NOW I
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13 1 SAY THAT BECAUSE THERE'S SOME MISLEADING THINGS ON HERE.
2 LET ME SHOW YOU ONE.
3 THE HILLSIDE ZONE LINE ON THE PROJECT IS HERE.
4 YOU SEE, IT'S A VERY SMALL PART OF THE SITE. AND BECAUSE
5 THE SITE SLOPES AWAY FROM HIGHWAY 74 TO THE NATURAL WASH
6 DOWN HERE, THAT'S WHAT MAKES THE HIGHEST POINT, IN THE
7 BACK HERE, 80 FEET BELOW THE POINT ON THE HIGHWAY OUT
8 HERE. THAT'S WHY THE SITE IS MOSTLY HIDDEN FROM VIEW IN
9 THAT EXHIBIT THAT RON SHOWED YOU, BECAUSE THE WHOLE THING
10 FALLS AWAY FROM THE ROAD.
11 THE HILLSIDE ZONE IN THAT TERRACE AREA IS
12 CHARACTERIZED MOSTLY BY FLAT LAND IN THIS AREA. THAT'S
13 ABOUT IT. OF THAT NARROW AREA, WHICH COMPRISES ABOUT 80
14 ACRES, JUST THE AREA THAT I'VE CIRCLED IS MOSTLY FLAT.
15 THE TERRAIN AREAS -- THE TERRACED AREAS, IN
16 HERE, WHERE WE GET THE SLOPE -BACK -AVERAGING FORMULA FOR,
17 ARE GENERALLY SLOPES OF ONLY FIVE TO 20 FEET TALL, BECAUSE
18 IT'S REALLY A TERRACE. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE TOTAL
19 ELEVATION BETWEEN THE BOTTOM OF THE WASH AND THE UPPER
20 PART OF THE SITES IN THESE TWO TERRACE AREAS ARE VERY LOW.
21 THIS ONE HERE, FROM THE EXISTING NATURAL GRADE
22 AT THE BOTTOM TO THE EXISTING NATURAL GRADE BACK UP HERE,
23 IS 20 FEET. 20 FEET. THE LOT ELEVATIONS AND THE NATURAL
24 CONTOURS ON THE TENTATIVE MAP SHOW THAT.
25 THIS NEXT ONE, JUST NORTH OF IT HERE, IS
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49
13 1 15 FEET. SO EVEN THOUGH IT'S IN THE HILLSIDE ZONE, IT'S
2 NOT IN THE STRONG RIDGE FORM AREAS AND IT REALLY IS ON
3 THAT ALLUVIAL TERRACE THAT BEGINS A VERY SLOW RISE UP FROM
4 THE CREEK. THAT'S WHY, ON THIS SCENE, THESE TWO ROWS OF
5 CUL-DE-SACS ARE NOT REALLY HUGE CUL-DE-SACS OF VERTICAL
6 GRADE. THEY ONLY PROGRESS, IN ONE CASE 15 FEET, AND IN
7 THE OTHER CASE 20 FEET VERTICALLY, FROM THE BASE TO THE
8 TOP.
9 AND WE WRAPPED THE GOLF COURSE AROUND THE BACK
10 AND FURTHER AVOIDED INTRUSIONS OF HOUSING UP INTO THAT
11 HILLSIDE. IF YOU'D LIKE, I CAN BRING THAT UP. THIS IS ON
12 THE TENTATIVE MAP THAT YOU HAVE IN YOUR PACKAGE, AND
13 THAT'S WHAT THE HILLSIDE STUDY THAT PHIL WENT OVER WAS
14 BASED ON, AND THAT'S WHAT GAVE HIM THOSE NUMBERS. BUT THE
15 DIMENSIONS ARE VERY, VERY MISLEADING BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A
16 UNIQUE PIECE OF LAND.
17 AND I'LL BRING THIS UP, IF YOU'D LIKE TO SEE
18 IT.
19 COUNCILMAN WILSON: QUESTION REGARDING THE RIDGES.
20 ARE THERE ANY SITES PLANNED ON ANY OF THE RIDGES?
21 MR. WHITE: NO, SIR. IT'S ALL JUST ON THIS LITTLE
22 TERRACE.
23 COUNCILMAN WILSON: HOW ABOUT THOSE RIDGES DOWN BY
24 THE WATER TANK?
25 MR. WHITE: THIS IS A LITTLE VALLEY IN THIS AREA.
14
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50
14 1 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: BUT THERE ARE ALSO SOME
2 RIDGES THAT COME OUT AT THAT POINT.
3 MR. WHITE: HERE ARE THE RIDGES UP TO THE BASE, AND
4 HERE'S THE OTHER ONE THAT COMES RIGHT DOWN HERE. OTHER
5 THAN THAT, WE SET THIS MOSTLY ON THESE LITTLE PIECES RIGHT
6 HERE.
7 COUNCILMAN WILSON: YOU GIVE HIGHWAY 74 AS A
8 REFERENCE POINT FOR THE ELEVATION. COULD YOU GIVE US A
9 REFERENCE POINT OF WHAT THE HEIGHT OF THIS HILLSIDE
10 DEVELOPMENT IS IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE SUMMIT DEVELOPMENT
11 THAT CURRENTLY EXISTS?
12 MR. WHITE: AT WHAT POINT? DOWN IN THROUGH HERE?
13 COUNCILMAN WILSON: YEAH.
14 MR. WHITE: THERE IS A TENTATIVE MAP CONDITION THAT
15 IT BE NO GREATER THAN THREE FEET BETWEEN THESE HOUSES HERE
16 AND THIS HOUSE HERE. THE WHOLE SITE HAS 200 FEET OF RISE
17 FROM HERE TO THIS POINT.
18 COUNCILMAN WILSON: OKAY. THE RISE IS 200 TO THE
19 HILLSIDE LOTS. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
20 MR. WHITE: HERE TO HERE.
21 COUNCILMAN WILSON: FROM THERE TO THERE.
22 MR. WHITE: LET ME DO IT THIS WAY, IF I COULD. THIS
23 POINT ON THE HIGHWAY HERE IS 700 FEET, AROUND NO. 695.
24 THIS POINT RIGHT HERE IS 822. IT'S 122, 127 FEET,
25 SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IT'S A THREE AND A HALF TO 4 PERCENT
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51
14 1 SLOPE OVER THE WHOLE SITE. YOU KNOW, I CONSIDER A FLAT
2 SITE SOMETHING LIKE 2 PERCENT. 4 PERCENT IS MAYBE --
3 WELL, TWICE THE CROWN ON A CITY STREET, SOMETHING LIKE
4 THAT.
5 I TRIED TO READDRESS THE VIEW, I TRIED TO
6 READDRESS THE HILLSIDE ISSUE. AND TO MOVE ON TO YOUR
7 OTHER QUESTION, IF I MAY, IF THERE'S NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
8 WHEN I FIRST APPEARED BEFORE THE PLANNING
9 COMMISSION IN JUNE OF 1990, THEY CHALLENGED US TO PUT A
10 BUFFER ON THE PROJECT BETWEEN THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE AND
11 OUR PROJECT. AND THAT TURNED OUT TO BE THIS AREA THAT
12 THEY FINALLY APPROVED IN THIS LOCATION HERE.
13 WHEN WE FILED THE PROJECT, WE HAD HOUSING ALL
14 THE WAY UP TO THE PROPERTY LINE. WHEN I FIRST THOUGHT OF
15 THAT IDEA OF PUTTING THE GOLF UP IN THAT NATURAL AREA, I
16 WAS A BIT APPREHENSIVE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU TEND NOT TO
17 THINK OF GOLF COURSES BEING UP IN THAT AREA. THEY TEND TO
18 BE IN THE FLATLAND.
19 SO I CALLED TED ROBINSON AND I SAID, "WHAT DO
20 YOU THINK OF THIS?"
21 HE SAID, "LET ME TRY SOME LAYOUTS," AND GOT TO
22 WORK ON IT.
23 HE CALLED ABOUT A WEEK LATER, AND HE SAID,
24 "RON, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT REALLY HAS POTENTIAL. AND IF
25 WE WORK WITH IT CAREFULLY, THIS COULD TURN OUT TO BE ONE
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52
14 1 OF THE MOST OUTSTANDING GOLF COURSES IN THE DESERT."
2 I SAID, "DO IT."
3 SO HERE NOW TO EXPLAIN THAT GOLF COURSE CONCEPT
4 AND ANSWER MORE OF YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT THE NATIVE
5 CHARACTER OF THAT COURSE AND THE DESERT THEME IS OUR GOLF
6 COURSE ARCHITECT, TED ROBINSON.
7 MR. ROBINSON: MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL.
8 MY NAME IS TED ROBINSON. I'M A GOLF COURSE
9 ARCHITECT AND HAVE BEEN SO FOR APPROXIMATELY 35 YEARS. MY
10 OFFICES ARE IN LAGUNA BEACH, CALIFORNIA, BUT I DO HAVE A
11 HOME HERE IN THE DESERT AND HAVE SPENT MOST OF THE LAST
12 20 YEARS HERE.
13 YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN IN THIS BUSINESS FOR A LONG
14 TIME. I'VE BUILT OVER 140 GOLF COURSES AROUND THE WORLD,
15 I'VE BUILT OVER 20 PROJECTS HERE IN THE COACHELLA VALLEY,
16 AND I'VE SEEN A LOT OF OTHER PROJECTS THAT WE HAVE
17 INSPECTED AS FOR POTENTIAL SITES. AND I CAN ASSURE YOU
18 THAT THIS SITE IS ONE OF THE BEST THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN.
19 AND THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT THIS SITE IS THE BEST SITE
20 FOR A GOLF COURSE IN COACHELLA VALLEY. AND THAT'S WHY I'M
21 PARTICULARLY EXCITED ABOUT IT. AND ESPECIALLY WHEN JIM
22 HAYHOE CALLED ME INTO HIS OFFICE HERE TWO OR THREE YEARS
23 AND ASKED ME IF I WOULD WORK ON IT.
24 HIS COMMENT TO ME WAS, HE SAYS, "I THINK I HAVE
25 THE BEST PIECE OF PROPERTY TO DEVELOP IN THE DESERT, AND
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53
l4 1 I'D LIKE TO DO THE BEST PROJECT THAT WE CAN."
2 AND I SAID, "MY THRUST IS EXCELLENCE. WE WANT
3 TO DO SOMETHING REALLY SPECIAL."
4 AND, NATURALLY, I WAS EXCITED ABOUT THIS. AND
5 THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST STUDIED PIECE OF LAND THAT I'VE
6 EVER WORKED ON. WE HAVE LITERALLY DONE DOZENS AND DOZENS
? OF STUDIES ON THIS LAND. I THINK I HAVE WALKED EVERY
8 SQUARE FOOT OF THIS LAND. I KNOW EVERY ROCK, I KNOW EVERY
9 SAGEBRUSH AND EVERY MESQUITE BUSH UP THERE. AND WE'VE
10 ANALYZED IT BECAUSE IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WE WANT TO DO
11 IT RIGHT.
12 AND WHEN I FOUND OUT THAT THE LAND WAS ZONED
13 FOR 1350 FEET (SIC), AND WHEN I CAME UP WITH MY
14 PRELIMINARY SKETCHES, I HAD LESS THAN A THIRD OF THAT KIND
15 OF A DENSITY, I WAS AFRAID TO GO BACK IN TO SEE
16 MR. HAYHOE.
17 AND I SAYS, "JIM, I'VE COME UP WITH A PLAN,
18 BUT," I SAID, "I THINK THAT WE ARE REALLY SUFFERING ON
19 DENSITY. I'M DOWN TO LESS THAN 500 UNITS, WHEN YOU'RE
20 ACTUALLY PERMITTED OVER 1350."
21 HE SAYS, "DO WE HAVE A GOOD PROJECT?"
22 AND I SAYS, "YOU'VE GOT THE BEST."
23 HE SAYS, "I'M ALL IN FAVOR. LET'S GO."
24 AND THAT WAS THE BASIS FOR WHICH WE DEVELOPED
25 THIS PROJECT.
15
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54
15 1 NOW, ACTUALLY, WE HAVE TWO GOLF COURSES IN ONE.
2 THE FIRST NINE, OR THE NORTHERLY NINE, IS DOWN -- PRETTY
3 MUCH DOWN IN FLAT LAND. AND WE HAVE ENDEAVORED TO MAKE IT
4 AS ARTISTICALLY POSSIBLE AS WE CAN. WE HAVE DOUBLE -WIDE
5 FAIRWAYS, WE HAVE, SOMETIMES, TRIPLE -WIDE FAIRWAYS. WE'VE
6 LOOKED AT THE VIEWS, AND WE CAN SAY THAT EVERY LOT THAT
7 FACES THIS GOLF COURSE WILL HAVE AN UNPARALLELED VIEW, NOT
8 ONLY THE GOLF COURSE, BUT THE VALLEY FLOOR BELOW OR THE
9 SANTA ROSAS TO THE SOUTH. AND IT WILL BE DEVELOPED, MORE
10 OR LESS, IN THE CONVENTIONAL WAY.
11 WE DO HAVE A MAJOR STORM DRAIN THAT PASSES
12 LATERALLY ACROSS THE PROPERTY. AND THAT WILL HAVE TO BE
13 RECONTOURED, BUT WE'LL DO AN EXTENSIVE AMOUNT OF GRADING
14 TO PUT IT BACK INTO A VERY NATURAL, UNDULATING CHARACTER.
15 AND THEN AS WE WORK FURTHER SOUTH, THE SECOND
16 NINE, OR THE SOUTH NINE, IS UP IN THE MORE RUGGED AREAS
17 OF -- THE MORE NATURAL AREAS. AND THIS IS THE PART OF THE
18 GOLF COURSE WHERE I GET REALLY EXCITED BECAUSE WE HAVE THE
19 POTENTIAL OF DOING SOMETHING REALLY UNUSUAL.
20 WE HAVE PLACED SEVERAL OF THE HOLES -- WHEN RON
21 ASKED ME TO EXPLORE THOSE POSSIBILITIES, WE HAVE PUT
22 SEVERAL HOLES UP THERE IN THE FOOTHILLS. THEY'RE NOT
23 ACTUALLY HIGHLANDS, THEY'RE HILLSIDE. BECAUSE A LOT OF
24 THE PROPERTY AND THE FAIRWAYS ARE RELATIVELY LEVEL.
25 SURPRISINGLY, THEY'RE NOT UP AND DOWN HILLS. SO MANY OF
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55
15 1 THESE HILLSIDE COURSES ARE. AND THE INTENT IS TO APPROACH
2 IT WITH THE IDEA THAT WE ARE GOING TO CAPITALIZE ON THE
3 DESERT ENVIRONMENT, WE'RE GOING TO DO VERY LITTLE GRADING.
4 AND THEN WHERE WE ARE GOING TO DEVELOP DOWN
5 INTO THE AREAS CLOSE TO THE CLUBHOUSE, WE WILL DO AN
6 EXTENSIVE AMOUNT OF REGRADING AND RECONTOURING, AND THEN
7 WE WILL RESTORE A LOT OF THAT SO WE CARRY OUT THE THEME OF
8 THE DESERT INTO THIS SECOND NINE HOLES.
9 NOW, THE 9TH -- THE CLUBHOUSE IS LOCATED
10 VIRTUALLY ON AN ISLAND, COMPLETELY SURROUNDED BY GOLF
11 COURSE. AND I CHALLENGE ANY OF YOU TO REALLY THINK ABOUT
12 WHERE THIS HAS ACTUALLY BEEN ACCOMPLISHED BEFORE. THERE'S
13 ALWAYS HOUSES AROUND THERE.
14 NOW, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THE 18TH AND 9TH
15 HOLES COME DOWN AND SURROUND THE CLUBHOUSE. THE PARKING
16 IS ON, NOT THE VIEW SIDE, BUT TOWARDS THE HIGHWAY. AND WE
17 ARE PROPOSING AN ELABORATE WATERSCAPE THAT WILL FLOW FROM
18 THE 18TH GREEN DOWN. IT WILL GIVE THE ILLUSION OF PASSING
19 THROUGH THE CLUBHOUSE, OUT THE OTHER SIDE, AND DOWN
20 THROUGH THE 9TH FAIRWAY. AND I WILL GUARANTEE YOU THAT IT
21 WILL BE TWO OF THE MOST SPECTACULAR FINISHING HOLES.
22 NOW, CONSIDERING THE VIEW OF THE CLUBHOUSE.
23 NOW, THIS CLUBHOUSE SEES THIS WATERSCAPE, IT SEES THE
24 HOLES, IT SEES NOTHING BUT FAIRWAYS AND SEES THE ENTIRE
25 COACHELLA VALLEY. AND I WILL GO OUT ON A LIMB AND STATE
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56
15 1 UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT THIS IS, BY FAR, THE MOST SPECTACULAR
2 SETTING FOR ANY CLUBHOUSE IN THE DESERT BY FAR. THERE
3 WON'T BE ANYTHING THAT WILL SURPASS IT.
4 AND KNOWING JIM'S COMMITMENT TO EXCELLENCE, I
5 WILL GIVE YOU MY PERSONAL ASSURANCE THAT IF THIS PROJECT
6 IS APPROVED, THAT IT WILL BECOME THE CROWN JEWEL OF THE
7 DESERT.
8 THANK YOU.
9 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, SIR.
10 MR. WHITE: BRIEFLY, THE PROJECT PROVIDES, ALSO, A
11 SUBSTANTIAL BENEFIT FOR THE COACHELLA VALLEY AND ALSO THE
12 CITY OF PALM DESERT IN THE FORM OF LOCAL SPENDING FROM
13 CONSTRUCTION ACTIVITIES, EMPLOYMENT, AND RESIDENTIAL
14 SPENDING.
15 TO QUANTIFY THE ACTUAL FINANCIAL BENEFIT, WE
16 HIRED THE FIRM OF PANNELL, KERR, FORSTER. NOW, PKF HAS
17 PROVIDED MANY DEVELOPMENT BENEFIT ANALYSES FOR CITIES IN
18 THE COACHELLA VALLEY AND ALSO THE COACHELLA VALLEY
19 VISITORS BUREAU. WE HAD THEM LOOK AT IT, AND THESE ARE
20 THE RESULTS.
21 OVER A TEN-YEAR PERIOD, THEY HAVE SAID THAT
22 THE -- ESTIMATED THAT THE CONSTRUCTION ACTIVITIES FROM
23 ACTUAL MATERIALS PURCHASED AND INDIRECT LABOR WOULD TOTAL
24 $122 MILLION. CLUB OPERATIONS OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME,
25 FROM ADDITIONAL PURCHASES AND DIRECT EMPLOYEES, WOULD BE
1
1
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15 1 ANOTHER $57 MILLION. FUTURE RESIDENTS AND THEIR DIRECT
2 SPENDING FOR HOUSING OVER A TEN-YEAR PERIOD HERE IN THE
3 VALLEY WOULD BE AN ESTIMATED $343 MILLION.
4 NOW, IF YOU ADD A SPENDING MULTIPLIER TO THAT,
5 AS YOU ALWAYS DO TO ACCOUNT FOR THE TRICKLE -DOWN THEORY OF
6 MONETARY SPENDING OF 2 -- YOU CAN ALLOW 2, 3.5 IN VARIOUS
7 CASES. WE'VE USED THE MINIMUM 2. THAT SHOWS THAT THIS
8 PROJECT, OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME, WOULD GENERATE
9 APPROXIMATELY $1 BILLION FOR THE LOCAL ECONOMY HERE IN THE
10 COACHELLA VALLEY.
11 IN ADDITION, GOVERNMENT FEES ALONE FOR THE
12 PROJECT WOULD BE $8 MILLION. PROPERTY TAXES AND SALES
13 TAXES WOULD BE ANOTHER $56 MILLION, FOR A TOTAL GOVERNMENT
14 BENEFIT OF $64 MILLION.
15 NOW, THIS IS NOT A QUESTION OF ENVIRONMENT
16 VERSUS ECONOMICS. IF WE COULD HAVE, WE COULD HAVE
17 PROPOSED VERY MORE -- A LOT MORE HOMES ON THAT SITE. IT'S
18 ZONED FOR 1350; WE'RE PROVIDING 450. WE COULD HAVE PUT
19 OUR HIGHEST -VALUE HOUSING UP AT THE SOUTH END OF THE
20 PROJECT NEXT TO THE INSTITUTE; WE CHOSE NOT TO. WE ALSO
21 COULD BE REFUSING AND NOT BE WILLING TO AID THE BIGHORN
22 INSTITUTE FURTHER WITH SOME OF THE PROGRAMS THAT WE ARE
23 GOING TO PROPOSE LATER IN THE EVENING, BUT WE ARE.
24 SINCE CEQA IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS
25 PROCESS, WE HAVE SOMEONE HERE TONIGHT THAT WE BROUGHT ON
16
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16 1 BOARD TO HELP US THROUGH THAT PROCESS TO BE SURE THAT WE
2 DID IT RIGHT, MR. ROBERT BREAK, FROM THE LAW FIRM OF
3 LATHAM & WATKINS.
4 MR. BREAK: GOOD EVENING.
5 MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE CITY COUNCIL.
6 MY NAME IS BOB BREAK. I'M A PARTNER WITH THE
7 LAW FIRM OF LATHAM & WATKINS. OUR OFFICES ARE AT 650 TOWN
8 CENTER DRIVE IN COSTA MESA. THIS IS GOING TO BE A LATE
9 EVENING, SO I WILL BE RELATIVELY SHORT ON A DRY TOPIC.
10 UNFORTUNATELY, WE DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER. IF
11 YOU'LL ALLOW ME TO GO BRIEFLY OVER MY CREDENTIALS SO THAT
12 YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT I DO HAVE SOME BASIS AND EXPERTISE
13 TO APPLY UPON THE ADEQUACY OF THE E.I.R. IN THIS INSTANCE.
14 I'VE BEEN PRACTICING IN THE AREA OF THE
15 CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY ACT FOR OVER 13 YEARS. I
16 WAS A MEMBER OF GOVERNOR DEUKMEJIAN'S CEQA HOUSING TASK
17 FORCE FORMED IN THE EARLY '80S TO LOOK AT WAYS TO
18 STREAMLINE THE CEQA PROCESS AND CUT DOWN ITS ADVERSE
19 IMPACTS ON THE COST OF HOUSING.
20 MY CLIENTS ON CEQA MATTERS INCLUDE LANDMARK
21 LAND DEVELOPMENT COMPANY, MOBIL OIL COMPANY, DISNEY,
22 MC DONNELL DOUGLAS, SUMMA CORPORATION, THE IRVINE COMPANY,
23 THE CALIFORNIA HOUSING COUNCIL, AND OTHERS.
24 IN THAT TIME I'VE LITIGATED AS MUCH AS 50 CASES
25 AND HAVE WORKED ON COUNTLESS MATTERS IN LOOKING AT
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16 1 E.I.R.'S AND TRYING TO HELP MAKE THEM BETTER. AFTER 13
2 YEARS, I THINK -- I STILL BELIEVE THAT THIS CLEAREST
3 STATEMENT OF WHAT IS EXPECTED OF AN E.I.R. IS FOUND IN THE
4 ADOPTED CEQA GUIDELINES.
5 BEAR WITH ME. THEY STATE, QUOTE:
6 "AN E.Z.R. SHOULD BE PREPARED
7 WITH A SUFFICIENT DEGREE OF ANALYSIS
8 TO PROVIDE DECISION -MAKERS WITH INFOR-
9 MATION WHICH ENABLES THEM TO MAKE A
10 DECISION WHICH INTELLIGENTLY TAKES
11 ACCOUNT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSEQUENCES.
12 THE COURTS HAVE LOOKED NOT FOR PERFEC-
13 TION, BUT ADEQUACY, COMPLETENESS, AND
14 A GOOD -FAITH EFFORT AT FULL DISCLOSURE."
15 I THINK THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO AGREE -- I
16 CERTAINLY AGREE WITH THE STAFF -- THAT THIS E.I.R. AND THE
17 EFFORT THAT THE CITY HAS ENGAGED IN OVER A THREE-YEAR
18 PERIOD TO UNDERSTAND THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONSEQUENCES OF
19 THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT MORE THAN MEETS THAT STANDARD.
20 THERE'S A LOT I COULD SAY. LET ME MAKE ONE
21 OBSERVATION. FROM A CEQA STANDPOINT, THIS PROCESS AND
22 THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT HAS BEEN SOMEWHAT UNIQUE. I HAVE
23 NOT BEFORE BEEN INVOLVED IN A PROJECT WHERE OPPONENTS HAVE
24 CONTENDED THAT AN E.I.R. WAS INADEQUATE FOR CONTAINING TOO
25 MUCH INFORMATION. IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE, THOSE
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16 1 CONTENTIONS HAVE BEEN MADE, AND LET ME TALK ABOUT TWO OF
2 THEM.
3 FIRST, THE CONTENTION IS MADE THAT THE LAND USE
4 HISTORY BEHIND THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT AND ITS
5 RELATIONSHIP TO THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE SHOULD HAVE BEEN
6 EXCLUDED.
7 THAT IS NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH CEQA. IN FACT,
8 CEQA SAYS THAT THE LEAD AGENCY -- AND YOU ARE THE LEAD
9 AGENCY -- IS OBLIGATED TO ASSESS THE FEASIBILITY OF
10 MEASURES THAT ARE ADVOCATED TO YOU TO ADDRESS CERTAIN
11 TYPES OF IMPACTS.
12 AMONG THE FACTORS TO CONSIDER IN ASSESSING THE
13 FEASIBILITY OF THOSE MEASURES ARE -- AND I'M QUOTING,
14 AGAIN, FROM THE GUIDELINES -- "ECONOMIC, ENVIRONMENTAL,
15 LEGAL, SOCIAL, AND TECHNOLOGICAL FACTORS."
16 CERTAINLY, THE LAND USE HISTORY IS RELEVANT,
17 THE LEGAL IMPLICATIONS OF THE VERY EXTENSIVE BUFFER THAT
18 IS ADVOCATED BY SOME OF THE OPPONENTS OF THIS PARTICULAR
19 PROJECT, IT IS CERTAINLY APPROPRIATE FOR THAT INFORMATION
20 TO BE INCLUDED IN THIS PARTICULAR E.I.R.
21 ADDITIONALLY, IT'S BEEN ADVOCATED THAT THE
22 E.I.R. IMPROPERLY INCLUDES AND GIVES SOME CREDENCE TO THE
23 OPINIONS OF EXPERTS WHO ARE, QUOTE, "IN THE PAY OF THE
24 PROJECT PROPONENT."
25 AGAIN, IT IS THE OBLIGATION OF THE CITY AND THE
1
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L6 1 E.I.R. PREPARER TO ASSEMBLE EXPERT OPINION AND TO
2 SUMMARIZE THAT OPINION IN THE AREAS OF DIFFERENCE FOR YOU.
3 ULTIMATELY, HOWEVER, THE STAFF, IN THIS CASE,
4 IS ADVOCATING THE POSITION OF NEITHER OF THE ARRAYED
5 POLITICIZED EXPERTS THAT EXIST HERE. IT'S ADVOCATING THE
6 MIDDLE -GROUND POSITION TAKEN BY THE FISH AND GAME
7 DEPARTMENT AS THE MOST CREDIBLE AND PERSUASIVE POSITION
8 WITH RESPECT TO THE BUFFER.
9 THE SHEEP ARE UNDER FISH AND GAME'S
10 JURISDICTION. THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE IS ONLY A STEWARD FOR
11 THE SHEEP UNDER LICENSE FROM THE STATE. THE STATE HAS THE
12 ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MANAGEMENT OF THIS RESOURCE.
13 ITS CREDIBILITY AND INDEPENDENCE ARE ABOVE QUESTION, AND,
14 IF ANYTHING, THE DEPARTMENT'S TENDENCY IS TO BE
15 CONSERVATIVE WHEN IT COMES TO PROTECTING NATURAL
16 RESOURCES.
17 THE FISH AND GAME -- DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND
18 GAME HAS CAREFULLY REVIEWED ALL OF THE OPINIONS AND
19 DETERMINED THAT IT IS -- IN ITS JUDGMENT, A 400-YARD
20 BUFFER IS SUFFICIENT.
21 WE WILL HAVE EXPERTS ADDRESSING THAT. AND I'M
22 SURE YOU WILL HEAR EXPERTS WITH CONTRARY OPINIONS IN
23 THE -- ON THE ISSUE, BUT, AGAIN, THE APPROPRIATENESS OF
24 INCLUDING THAT INFORMATION IN THE E.I.R. IS CERTAINLY
25 WITHOUT QUESTION.
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62
17 1 THE INFORMATION IN THE E.I.R. SHOULD BE THERE.
2 THE E.I.R. REPRESENTS A COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW OF THE
3 POTENTIAL ENVIRONMENTAL CONSEQUENCES OF THIS PROJECT AND
4 MORE THAN MEETS THE STANDARDS FOR ADEQUACY.
5 THANK YOU.
6 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, SIR.
7 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.)
8 MR. WHITE: OKAY. WE'RE GOING TO ABBREVIATE THE REST
9 OF OUR PRESENTATION IN THE INTEREST OF INTEREST.
10 WE'RE HERE. DO YOU WANT TAKE A BREAK OR DO YOU
11 WANT TO ROLL?
12 MAYOR SNYDER: ROLL. LET'S ROLL.
13 MR. WHITE: OKAY. WHEN JIM FIRST BECAME AWARE THAT
14 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE WAS PROTESTING OUR PROJECT, WE
15 IMMEDIATELY ASSEMBLED WHAT WE FELT WAS THE BEST BIOLOGICAL
16 TEAM WE COULD TO ASSESS THE SITUATION AND ADVISE US. WE
17 DID THIS TO FIND OUT OURSELVES WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD
18 REASSESS OUR POSITION ON OUR PROJECT.
19 WHAT WE FOUND THROUGH THAT PROCESS IS THAT WE
20 FEEL IT CANNOT BE DEMONSTRATED THAT OUR PROJECT HAS A
21 PROBLEM OR A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON THE INSTITUTE. PART OF
22 THAT BIOLOGICAL TEAM IS HERE THIS EVENING. TOGETHER THEY
23 COMPRISE A TOTAL OF 60 YEARS OF BIGHORN SHEEP EXPERIENCE.
24 TO PRESENT THE TEAM AND ADDRESS THE E.I.R. AND
25 BIOLOGICAL ISSUES IS DR. STEVE CAROTHERS OF S.W.C.
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17 1 ASSOCIATES OF FLAGSTAFF, ARIZONA.
2 DR. CAROTHERS HAS A FIRM OF 80 DEDICATED
3 PROFESSIONALS WHO SPECIALIZE IN RESOLVING CONFLICTS
4 BETWEEN ENVIRONMENT AND DEVELOPMENT BY UTILIZING
5 SCIENTIFIC TEAMS ESPECIALLY TAILORED TO THE ISSUES.
6 THEY WORKED FOR MANY YEARS ON PROJECTS FOR THE
7 FEDERAL FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, THE BUREAU OF LAND
8 MANAGEMENT, .CALIFORNIA FISH AND GAME DEPARTMENT, THE
9 NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, AND OTHER STATE AGENCIES.
10 TO INTRODUCE THAT TEAM AND START THE
11 DISCUSSIONS, HERE IS DR. CAROTHERS.
12 DR. CAROTHERS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, RON.
13 MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE CITY COUNCIL.
14 I APPRECIATE HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HERE.
15 MY NAME IS STEVEN W. CAROTHERS. I RESIDE AT 23 EAST PINE,
16 FLAGSTAFF, ARIZONA.
17 AS RON SAID, OUR FIRM -- WE REPRESENT THE
18 GOVERNMENT, THE STATE, THE PRIVATE SECTOR, AGENCIES THAT
19 ARE INTERESTED IN ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT
20 THERE ARE SPOTTED OWLS OR TORTOISES OR BIGHORN SHEEP OR
21 DEER OR WHATEVER THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF A PARTICULAR
22 DEVELOPMENT MAY BE.
23 I -- I COME TO THESE ALWAYS WITH A PREPARED
24 STATEMENT TO MAKE, AND THEN MIDWAY THROUGH IT I HAVE TO
25 CHANGE IT. AND MR. CRITES' QUESTIONS RELATIVE TO THE
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17 1 DESERT WASH BRING THAT RIGHT INTO LINE TONIGHT.
2 AND I DO WANT TO BE QUICK, AND I DO WANT TO GET
3 IMMEDIATELY INTO THE ISSUE OF THE DESERT BIGHORN SHEEP AND
4 THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT THE PROPOSED ALTA MIRA
5 DEVELOPMENT COULD POSSIBLY IMPACT THE ACTIVITIES AND THE
6 SUCCESS OF THE DESERT BIGHORN INSTITUTE. PRIOR TO THAT, I
7 SIMPLY HAVE TO ANSWER MR. CRITES' QUESTION AS IT RELATES
8 TO THE DESERT WASH.
9 AS YOU REMEMBER -- AND I THINK MR. JOY BROUGHT
10 THIS OUT -- THAT IN THE ORIGINAL E.I.R., FOUR ISSUES WERE
11 BROUGHT OUT: THE DESERT TORTOISE, DESERT WASH AND BIGHORN
12 SHEEP AND THE DESERT BIGHORN SHEEP INSTITUTE.
13 PHIL JOY DEALT WITH THE DESERT TORTOISE. WE
14 DON'T HAVE TORTOISES. FINALLY, AFTER THREE COMPLETE
15 CENSUSES ON THE PROPERTY, WE ALL AGREE THAT WE DON'T HAVE
16 DESERT TORTOISES.
17 BUT I NEED TO TAKE A FEW MINUTES, MR. CRITES,
18 FOR YOUR BENEFIT, AND TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT DESERT
19 WASH ECOSYSTEM AND WHAT WE DO AND WHY, STARTING IN 1969,
20 WITH A PUBLICATION OUT OF OUR COMPANY, SOME OF THE
21 ORIGINAL PAPERS ON THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE DESERT WASH
22 HABITATS ORIGINATED.
23 AND WHAT WE KNOW IS, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE
24 CONFIGURATION AND THE PRESERVATION OF THE WASH AS IT
25 EXISTS TODAY THAT'S IMPORTANT. WHY IS THERE THIS BIG
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17 1 HOOPLA ABOUT DESERT WASH ECOSYSTEMS? WHY ARE WE SO
2 CONCERNED NOW ABOUT SAVING THEM? AND IT'S SIMPLY BECAUSE
3 THE VEGETATION THAT GROWS IN DESERT WASHES IS
4 DISPROPORTIONATE IN TERMS OF ITS DENSITY AND ITS FOLIAGE
5 VOLUME TO THE VEGETATION IN THE UPLAND AREAS.
6 AND WE KNOW FOR A SIMPLE FACT -- AND
7 PUBLICATIONS THAT CAME OUT OF OUR FIRM IN 1988 VERIFY
8 THIS -- THAT IN HOUSING AREAS AND IN URBAN ENVIRONMENTS
9 AND IN WASH HABITATS LIKE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IN PALM
10 DESERT, THE DENSITY AND DIVERSITY OF THE WILDLIFE ELEMENTS
11 THAT EXIST ARE NOT A FUNCTION OF HOW NATURAL THAT WASH IS
12 AS MUCH AS IT IS A FUNCTION OF HOW MUCH NATIVE VEGETATION
13 WE'VE GOT.
14 AND I THINK WHEN RON GREGORY AND RUTH WATLING
15 WERE TALKING ABOUT THE ASPECT OF THIS DEVELOPMENT, THAT IT
16 IS GOING TO BE VEGETATED WITH AN EMPHASIS ON NATIVE
17 VEGETATION, WE'RE MISSING THE POINT BY NOT EMPHASIZING TO
18 YOU THAT EVERY CUBIC METER OF NATIVE VEGETATION THAT WE
19 GET IS GOING TO BRING ALONG WITH IT NATIVE WILDLIFE.
20 THAT DEAD INDIAN WASH ON THIS PROJECT HAS BEEN
21 DISTURBED REPEATEDLY FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS. THERE'S A
22 DIKE THAT GOES ACROSS IT. I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE -- I WOULD
23 LIKE TO PRESERVE A LOT OF THAT WASH IN ITS NATURAL STATE,
24 AND WE WILL DO THAT. BUT IN OTHER CASES, I WANT TO CLUMP
25 BIG AREAS OF THAT SMOKE TREE HABITAT.
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18 1 YOU CAN SEE THAT ON THE GOLF COURSE PLAN, THERE
2 ARE ROWS OF VEGETATION ALONG THAT GOLF COURSE. I WANT TO
3 TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE WATER THAT'S ON THAT GOLF COURSE TO
4 WATER SMOKE TREES, TO WATER PALO VERDE TREES, AND TO WATER
5 MESQUITES SO THAT I CAN INCREASE THE FOLIAGE VOLUME AND
6 GET MORE NATIVE WILDLIFE.
7 THE DAYS OF POOR CONSTRUCTION OVER. WE HAVE
8 DEVELOPMENTS NOW THAT ARE TAKING INTO PLAN THE IDEA THAT
9 IF WE HAVE NATIVE VEGETATION, WE WILL HAVE NATIVE
10 WILDLIFE.
11 WE ARE GOING TO BALANCE THE WILDLIFE BUDGET ON
12 THIS PROJECT. WE'LL HAVE -- AND I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THIS.
13 AND, MR. CRITES, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU WANT THIS
14 GUARANTEED, BUT I'LL SIGN IT IN BLOOD. WE WILL HAVE MORE
15 NATIVE WILDLIFE AFTER THIS DEVELOPMENT THAN WE HAVE ON
16 THAT PROJECT RIGHT NOW. AND THAT'S BECAUSE WE CAN TAKE
17 ADVANTAGE OF THE WATER FROM THE GOLF COURSE, WE CAN KEEP
18 OUR SMOKE TREES AND THE MESQUITES AND THE PALO VERDES THAT
19 WE'VE GOT, AND WE CAN ENHANCE THAT HABITAT. AND I REALLY
20 MEAN THAT.
21 NOW, HAVING SAID THAT, I HAVE IN THE
22 AUDIENCE -- WE BROUGHT WITH US TONIGHT OUR HABITAT
23 RESTORATION SPECIALIST. I DON'T WANT HIM TO GIVE HIS
24 PRESENTATION. IF YOU HAVE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS, HE WILL
25 ANSWER THEM.
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18 1 AS TO HOW WE WILL DO THAT, I WANT TO GET TO THE
2 THE ISSUE OF THE BIGHORN SHEEP. THIS IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN
3 WAITING FOR. WE HAVE EXPERTS OUT HERE IN THE AUDIENCE.
4 WE HAVE EXPERTS THAT ARE, FRANKLY, ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS
5 ISSUE, TIRED OF THIS ISSUE. WE HOPE WE CAN GET A SOLUTION
6 TO THIS ISSUE TONIGHT.
7 BUT I HAVE BROUGHT HERE TONIGHT TWO SCIENTISTS
8 THAT ARE RESPECTED BY THEIR PEERS ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY IN
9 THEIR SCIENTIFIC STUDIES ON BIGHORN SHEEP. AND I WOULD
10 LIKE TO FIRST BRING DR. JACK TURNER TO THE PODIUM.
11 DR. TURNER HAS 23 YEARS EXPERIENCE WORKING ON
12 DESERT BIGHORN SHEEP. FROM 1968 TO 1980, HE WORKED RIGHT
13 HERE ON THE SANTA ROSA HERD.
14 DR. TURNER WAS THE FIRST SCIENTIST TO WORK WITH
15 CAPTIVE BIGHORN SHEEP IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA. HE
16 ESTABLISHED THE FIRST CAPTIVE BREEDING FACILITY AND HE
17 WAS, IN LARGE PART, RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SUCCESSFUL
18 ESTABLISHMENT OF THE BREEDING FACILITY AT THE LIVING
19 DESERT PRESERVE.
20 DR. TURNER AND HIS GRADUATE STUDENTS WERE THE
21 FIRST TO IDENTIFY THE DISEASE THAT IS RUNNING RAMPANT IN
22 THE SANTA ROSA MOUNTAIN POPULATION THAT THE BIGHORN
23 INSTITUTE IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON.
24 DR. TURNER HAS OVER 25 PUBLICATIONS DEALING
25 WITH DESERT BIGHORN SHEEP AND THEIR HABITAT, AND IS
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18 1 PRESENTLY A RESEARCH PHYSIOLOGIST AND PROFESSOR OF BIOLOGY
2 AT SAM HOUSTON STATE UNIVERSITY.
3 TONIGHT DR. TURNER IS GOING TO TAKE TWO
4 SUBJECTS AND DEAL WITH IT. HE WILL SHARE WITH US TONIGHT
5 HIS EXTENSIVE KNOWLEDGE ON THE BIGHORN SHEEP HABITAT.
6 HE'S GOING TO ADDRESS THIS QUESTION: DO WE HAVE REAL
7 DESERT BIGHORN SHEEP HABITAT ON THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT, AND
8 IF WE DEVELOP IT, WILL WE IMPACT THAT?
9 HE'S FURTHER GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES
10 RELATED TO CAPTIVE SHEEP AND HABITUATION AND
11 SEMI -DOMESTICATION AND WHETHER OR NOT ANY OF THE
12 ACTIVITIES ON ALTA MIRA COULD IMPACT THE SHEEP AT THE
13 BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
14 DR. TURNER.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, DOCTOR.
16 DR. TURNER: GOOD EVENING.
17 I HOPE I CAN LIVE UP TO WHAT HE JUST SAID I WAS
18 GOING TO DO. IT ALWAYS SURPRISES ME WHAT WE'RE GOING TO
19 DO WHEN WE GET OUR INTRODUCTIONS HERE.
20 I AM A NATIVE CALIFORNIAN, THIRD GENERATION.
21 THERE'S SOME AMERICAN INDIAN BACK THERE SOMEWHERE. I
22 MOVED TO TEXAS TO MAKE A LIVING. MY ROOTS IN CALIFORNIA
23 GO FAR BACK -- FURTHER BACK THAN THAT. MY FOLKS -- MY
24 GRANDPARENTS MET AT THE SAN GORGONIO INN HERE JUST UP THE
25 ROAD. SO THIS PART OF THE WORLD IS -- IS HOME TO ME.
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18 1 I AM HERE, NOT FOR ANYBODY BUT BIGHORN SHEEP.
2 I DON'T REPRESENT DEVELOPERS, I DON'T REPRESENT ANYTHING
3 OTHER THAN THE ANIMAL THAT I LEARNED ABOUT UP HERE IN THE
4 HILLS.
5 I WANT TO STATE AT THE OUTSET THAT UNDER NO
6 CIRCUMSTANCES -- IT IS MY CONSIDERED OPINION THAT UNDER NO
7 CIRCUMSTANCES WILL THE ALTA MIRA DEVELOPMENT, BY ANY
8 STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, IMPINGE ON NATIVE WILD SHEEP
9 HABITAT. BIGHORNS JUST DON'T LIKE SANDY WASHES. IT'S
10 JUST NOT THEIR CUP OF SOUP, AS IT WERE.
11 THE SANTA ROSA MOUNTAINS, BY AND LARGE, ARE
12 WHAT MOST PEOPLE REFER TO AS A DESERT RANGE, AND IT'S NOT.
13 THE SANTA ROSA MOUNTAINS ARE A PENINSULAR GROUP OF
14 MOUNTAINS WHICH HAVE A DESERT SLOPE TO THEM. IT'S WHAT WE
15 REFER TO AS AN OROGRAPHIC DESERT. IT MEANS THAT THE --
16 WITH THE EXCEPTION OF YESTERDAY OR DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY,
17 IT WAS. CLOUDS USUALLY DON'T MAKE IT OVER THE TOP, AND AS
18 SUCH, THEY STAY ON THE OTHER SIDE. WE HAVE A DESERT SLOPE
19 ON THIS SIDE, UNLESS SOME HIGH PRESSURE CELLS GET
20 REARRANGED FUNNY AND WE GET WATER IN FROM THE TROPICS.
21 AS SUCH, THE SANTA ROSA MOUNTAINS ARE PERHAPS
22 THE BEST WATERED PIECE OF DESERT HABITAT THAT WE HAVE IN
23 THE SOUTHWEST AREA. AND IT CANNOT BE COMPARED TO DEATH
24 VALLEY OR ANY OTHER DESERT MOUNTAIN RANGE. IT'S JUST NOT
25 COMPARABLE. A BAD DAY IN THE SANTA ROSAS IS NOT EVEN
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19 1 CLOSE TO A GOOD DAY IN DEATH VALLEY. OR BY THE SAME
2 TOKEN, WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE YOUR DRUTHERS OF A BAD DAY IN
3 DEATH VALLEY OR A BAD DAY IN PALM DESERT? THE SELECTION
4 IS YOURS.
5 BACK IN THE EARLY '50S AND THROUGH THE '70S,
6 THE BIGHORN POPULATION HERE IN THE SANTA ROSAS WAS PRETTY
7 HIGH. IN FACT, IT WAS AT WHAT WE CALL CARRYING CAPACITY
8 OR VERY CLOSE TO IT. AND WHAT WE MEAN IS THAT WE HAD A
9 LOT OF SHEEP HERE IN THE RANGE, AND THEY WERE MAXIMIZING
10 THE HABITAT. WE HAD SHEEP ABOUT AS CLOSELY PACKED AS WE
11 COULD MAKE IT. IT'S NOTHING THAT WE DID, IT'S JUST
12 SOMETHING THAT THE SHEEP DID. AU NATURAL. WITHOUT A
13 BUFFER ZONE.
14 AT ANY RATE -- ANNIE OAKLEY CALLED IT DOING
15 WHAT COME NATURALLY. OKAY?
16 AT ANY RATE, AT OR NEAR THE CARRYING CAPACITY.
17 WE LOOKED AT THAT AT PROBABLY SOMEWHERE AROUND FIVE TO 700
18 HEAD. THE NUMBERS VARY. IT DEPENDS ON WHOSE INFORMATION
19 OR WHOSE DATA YOU GO WITH. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER YOU HAVE
20 SHEEP HERDERS OUT THERE BURNING OFF A LOT OF BOOT LEATHER,
21 COUNTING SHEEP, AND SAYING, "I SAW THIS MANY HERE, I SAW
22 THAT MANY THERE." THERE MAY BE SOME OVERLAP.
23 SO THE NUMBERS ARE NOT HARD AND FAST. THAT'S
24 JUST PART OF THE SYSTEM THAT WE WORK WITH. AT ANY RATE,
25 WE HAD ABOUT THAT MANY BIGHORN, FIVE TO 700 HEAD, WITHIN
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19 1 SEVERAL HUNDRED SQUARE MILES. ESSENTIALLY, THE WATERSHED
2 THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT WHEN WE LOOK BACK UP TO THE SANTA
3 ROSAS.
4 AT THAT TIME THE POPULATIONS WERE HIGH. I MEAN
5 I SAID IT: "WE LOSE AN ACRE, WE LOSE A SHEEP." AND
6 THAT'S ABOUT THE SITUATION THAT WE WERE IN. IF YOU LOST
7 ONE ACRE OF HABITAT, YOU LOST THE SHEEP THAT WAS OCCUPYING
8 THAT PIECE OF GROUND. IT WAS JUST THAT SIMPLE.
9 PRESENTLY, THERE ARE ABOUT 120 SHEEP BY B.H.I.
10 ESTIMATES WITHIN THE RANGE, AND THEY'RE STILL WITHIN THAT
11 SEVERAL HUNDRED SQUARE MILES. NOW, THAT MEANS THAT
12 THERE'S SOMETHING LIKE ONE FOURTH OR ONE FIFTH THE NUMBER
13 OF SHEEP IN THAT AREA. SO THEY'RE NOT PACKED IN THERE
14 LIKE SARDINES OR AT OR NEAR CARRYING CAPACITY OF THE
15 ENVIRONMENT AT ALL.
16 ALL OF THIS IS REALLY RATHER AN ACADEMIC
17 DISCUSSION BECAUSE -- AND ACADEMIC TO THE QUESTION OF THE
18 ALTA MIRA SITE OR THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE SITE, PRINCIPALLY
19 BECAUSE NEITHER OF THESE SITES ARE BIGHORN HABITAT.
20 NOW, IF THEY'RE NOT BIGHORN HABITAT, CAN THEIR
21 LOSS OR INCLUSION IMPACT OR IMPINGE UPON THE NATIVE WILD
22 SHEEP HABITAT OR POPULATIONS? AND THE ANSWER IS NO. IF
23 THEY'RE NOT PART OF THAT SEVERAL HUNDRED SQUARE MILES AND
24 NEVER WERE, THEN THEY ARE NOT STILL PART OF IT YET.
25 NEITHER THE CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND
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19 1 GAME NOR THE BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT HAS EVER DESIGNATED
2 THIS PART OF THE RANGE, THE ALTA MIRA SITE OR THE BIGHORN
3 INSTITUTE SITE, AS BEING INCLUDED WITHIN NATIVE WILD SHEEP
4 HABITAT. IT IS OUTSIDE THAT HABITAT.
5 BACK SEVERAL YEARS AGO, WHEN I WAS HERE ON THE
6 DESERT AS A GRADUATE STUDENT FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF
7 CALIFORNIA, I HAD PERMITS THAT ENABLED ME TO WORK WITH
8 FREE -RANGING ANIMALS AND CAPTIVE ANIMALS AND DO SOME
9 CAPTURE WORK. AND I WON'T SAY IT WAS A TRADE-OFF, BUT WE
10 DID SOME MUTUAL KINDS OF THINGS.
11 CAL FISH AND GAME WOULD SAY, "JACK, WE'D LIKE
12 TO HAVE SOME HABITAT EVALUATIONS ON THIS -- ON THESE
13 PIECES OF GROUND. WE'RE INTERESTED IN THESE PIECES OF
14 GROUND. ARE THEY IMPORTANT OR ARE THEY NOT IMPORTANT?"
15 AND I WAS THE ONE THEY SENT OUT TO WEAR OFF THE
16 BOOT LEATHER TO GO AND FIND OUT. SO ON A NUMBER OF
17 OCCASIONS I WAS ASKED TO EVALUATE MAJOR CHUNKS OF HABITAT
18 BY SECTION OF BIGHORN HABITAT.
19 IN THE LONG RUN, WHAT THIS CAME DOWN TO IS THE
20 CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME EVENTUALLY GOT INTO
21 THE REAL ESTATE BUSINESS AND BOUGHT BIG CHUNKS OF HABITAT
22 THAT WERE POTENTIALLY GOING TO BE ENCROACHED UPON BY
23 WHATEVER. AND I DON'T NECESSARILY MEAN BY HOMES, BUT BY
24 RECREATIONAL USE OR ANY OF A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS.
25 AREAS THAT WERE IMPORTANT TO BIGHORN SHEEP THAT THEIR LOSS
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19 1 WOULD IMPACT THE POPULATION DRASTICALLY. AND PART OF THIS
20
2 WAS THE AREA THAT WE NOW CALL THE UPPER CARRIZO GORGE, AND
3 PART OF IT WAS MAGNESIA FALLS CANYON AND SO FORTH.
4 DURING THAT SURVEY, OR DURING THAT TIME THAT I
5 WAS EVALUATING HABITAT, AT NO TIME WERE THE AREAS OF THE
6 BIGHORN INSTITUTE OR THE PRESENT SITE OF THE ALTA MIRA
7 DEVELOPMENT EVEN HELD CLOSE TO BEING CONSIDERED. IT NEVER
8 WAS BIGHORN HABITAT.
9 THE ONE RECURRENT THEME IS THE B.H.I.'S CLAIM
10 TO HAVING SEEN SHEEP ON THEIR PROPERTY. AND I WOULDN'T
11 DISPUTE THAT. THAT PARTICULAR BLOCK OF MOUNTAIN, I'VE
12 SEEN SHEEP FURTHER UP. I HAVE NOT SEEN SHEEP FURTHER
13 DOWN.
14 BUT IT IS NOT THE PRESENCE OF BIGHORN SHEEP
15 THAT MAKES HABITAT. RATHER, IT IS THE QUALITY OF WHAT THE
16 SHEEP ARE STANDING ON THAT MAKES THE HABITAT. THE MERE
17 PRESENCE OF A BIGHORN DOESN'T MAKE IT BIGHORN HABITAT.
18 POINT IN FACT: IF A SHEEP WALKS OUT ON THE
19 MACADEM ON TAHQUITZ-MC CALLUM AVENUE, DO WE NOW DECLARE
20 TAHQUITZ-MC CALLUM AVENUE BIGHORN HABITAT? HABITAT IS THE
21 PLACE WHERE THE SHEEP MAKES ITS LIVING. IT'S HIS ADDRESS.
22 BEG YOUR PARDON?
23 MAYOR SNYDER: OH. DO WE NEED TO CHANGE TAPE?
24 MR. WHITE: WE'D LIKE TO TAKE A BREAK FOR JUST A
25 SECOND.
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20 1 MAYOR SNYDER: ALL RIGHT.
2 DR. TURNER: SO I WILL LEAVE YOU AT THAT BY SAYING
3 THAT OUR DESERT BIGHORN HABITAT IS ESSENTIALLY MADE BY THE
4 QUALITY OF WHAT THEY'RE STANDING ON, AND NOT THE MERE FACT
5 THAT THEY ARE STANDING IN A PARTICULAR SPOT. TOO MANY
6 PLACES, LIKE PEOPLE'S TRAILERS, PEOPLE'S HOTEL ROOMS,
7 WOULD AUTOMATICALLY BECOME BIGHORN HABITAT IF INDEED IT
8 WERE MERELY THE PRESENCE OF A BIGHORN SHEEP THERE.
9 EXCUSE ME.
10 MR. WHITE: MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL.
11 THANK YOU VERY MUCH SO FAR THIS EVENING. IF WE
12 COULD ASK FOR JUST A BRIEF BREAK, WE'D APPRECIATE IT.
13 MAYOR SNYDER: WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE RECORDING
14 HERE, AND MAYBE YOU'D ALL LIKE TO TAKE A BRIEF BREAK OR
15 OTHERWISE.
16 WE'LL DECLARE A FIVE-MINUTE BREAK HERE TO GIVE
17 YOU ALL A CHANCE TO RELAX FOR A SECOND.
18 (RECESS.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 CERTIFICATE
2 OF
3 REPORTER
4
5
I, G. JOANNE BERGREN, CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER IN
6
AND FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, DO HEREBY CERTIFY:
7
THAT THE FOREGOING HEARING WAS TAKEN BEFORE ME AT
8
THE TIME AND PLACE THEREIN SET FORTH;
9
THAT THE HEARING WAS RECORDED STENOGRAPHICALLY BY ME
10
AND THEREAFTER TRANSCRIBED THROUGH COMPUTER -AIDED
11
TRANSCRIPTION, SAID TRANSCRIPT BEING A TRUE COPY OF MY
12
SHORTHAND NOTES THEREOF AND A TRUE RECORD OF THE HEARING.
13
14 IN WITNaESS WHEREOF, I HAVE SUBSCRIBED MY NAME THIS
15 DATE:
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
G. JOANNE BERGREN, C.S.R.
CERTIFICATE NO. 6334
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20 1
PUBLIC HEARING
2
BEFORE THE PALM DESERT CITY COUNCIL
3 VOLUME II
4 CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS
73-510 FRED WARING DRIVE
5 PALM DESERT, CALIFORNIA
6 THURSDAY, AUGUST 1, 1991
7 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS WITH REFERENCE
TO CASE NO. S TT 25296 AND C/Z 89-16, (CONTINUED FROM
8 THE MEETING OF JULY 11, 1991). ZONE CHANGE FROM O.S.
TO PR-5 AND HPR FOR A DRAINAGEWAY IN THE CENTRAL
9 PORTION OF THE SITE, AND CERTIFICATION OF AN
ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT ON 352 ACRES SOUTHEAST
10 OF HIGHWAY 74 AND INDIAN HILLS WAY - BIGHORN VENTURES,
APPLICANT.
11
CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS:
12
WALTER H. SNYDER, MAYOR
13 RICHARD S. KELLY, MAYOR PRO TEM
S. ROY WILSON
14 JEAN M. BENSON
BUFORD A. CRITES
15
CITY STAFF PARTICIPATING
16
RAMON A. DIAZ, PLANNING DIRECTOR
17 PHIL JOY, ASSOCIATE PLANNER
RICHARD W. FOLKERS, CITY ENGINEER
18 DOUGLAS S. PHILLIPS, CITY ATTORNEY
19 REPORTED BY:.
G. JOANNE BERGREN, C.S.R.
1
1
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20 1 P R O C E E D I N G S, (CONT' D. )
2
3 MAYOR SNYDER: I'D LIKE TO GET THIS MEETING CALLED
4 BACK TO ORDER. I'M SURE MOST OF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE HERE
5 FOR BREAKFAST, SO IF YOU'LL ALL COME TO ORDER -- WE NEED
6 YOU TO ALL COME TO ORDER SO WE CAN BRING THIS MEETING BACK
7 TO ORDER; OTHERWISE, WE MIGHT BE HERE FOR BREAKFAST, AND I
8 HAVEN'T REALLY PREPARED IT. THERE'S NOT ENOUGH IN OUR
9 KITCHEN TO TAKE CARE OF IT.
10 SO IF YOU'D ALL SETTLE DOWN, WE'LL TURN THE
11 MEETING BACK -- BRING THE MEETING BACK TO ORDER AND ASK
12 THE DOCTOR TO CONTINUE WITH HIS PRESENTATION.
13 DR. CAROTHERS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. MAYOR.
14 WE'RE VERY INTERESTED IN GETTING THROUGH THIS
15 AS FAST AS WE CAN. WE'RE SO EXCITED ABOUT THIS PROJECT
16 THAT WE HAVE A LOT TO SAY, BUT WE'RE GOING TO ABBREVIATE
17 THE REST OF OUR PRESENTATION.
18 BUT I HAVE TO HAVE DR. CHUCK DOUGLAS COME UP
19 HERE. DR. DOUGLAS IS THE SENIOR RESEARCH SCIENTIST AND
20 HEAD OF THE C.P.S.U. AT THE UNIVERSITY OF LAS VEGAS AT
21 NEVADA -- THE UNIVERSITY OF NEVADA AT LAS VEGAS, RATHER.
22 HE HAS OVER 50 PUBLICATIONS ON BIGHORN SHEEP,
23 AND HE'S RECOGNIZED THROUGHOUT THIS COUNTRY AS ONE OF THE
24 PREMIERE SCIENTISTS ON BIGHORN SHEEP.
25 AND I'M GOING TO ASK HIM TO COME UP HERE AND
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20 1 ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT THE ACTIVITIES AT THE
2 ALTA MIRA PROJECT WILL INFLUENCE THE BREEDING ACTIVITIES
3 OF THE SHEEP AT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE, AND I WOULD ALSO
4 LIKE HIM TO DISCUSS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE BUFFER THAT
5 WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
6 WE'VE GOT FIVE MORE MINUTES TO GO, MR. MAYOR,
7 AND WE'LL BE OUT OF HERE.
8 MAYOR SNYDER: WELL, I'M NOT TRYING TO FORCE ANYBODY.
9 DR. CAROTHERS: DR. DOUGLAS.
10 I KNOW, BUT MY BOSS IS FORCING ME.
11 DR. DOUGLAS: MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL,
12 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
13 I'VE SELDOM HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF WORKING WITH
14 A DEVELOPER WHO HAS BEEN WILLING TO GO THE EXTRA MILE LIKE
15 THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT HAS BEEN. AND I ASSURE YOU, I'M NOT
16 HERE AS A HIRED GUN. I BELIEVE I AM HERE FOR BIGHORN
17 SHEEP, NOT FOR ALTA MIRA ALONE. SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS
18 WHAT I BELIEVE, NOT WHAT THEY'RE PAYING ME TO SAY.
19 THE BIGHORN ADVISORY COMMITTEE, ASSEMBLED BY
20 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE, RECOMMENDED A 400-YARD BUFFER TO
21 PROTECT BIGHORN SHEEP, BUT AT THE TIME THEY MADE THAT
22 DISCUSSION, THE COMMITTEE DID NOT LOOK INTO ANY OTHER
23 TYPES OF MITIGATION MEASURES OTHER THAN DISTANCE.
24 PERSONALLY, I HAVE ALWAYS OPPOSED THE 400-YARD
25 BUFFER, FEELING THAT THERE WERE OTHER MITIGATION MEASURES
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1 THAT WERE EQUALLY ACCEPTABLE. S.W.C.A. HAS DEMONSTRATED
2 THAT THERE ARE MORE EFFECTIVE MITIGATION MEASURES THAN AN
3 OPEN -LAND BUFFER ALONE.
4 WITH BIGHORN SHEEP, THE SECURITY OF THE
5 ANIMALS, THE SECURITY THAT THEY FEEL, IS TRULY MORE
6 IMPORTANT THAN SPACE PER SE. SOME OF THE RESPONDENTS TO
7 THE QUESTIONNAIRES RECOMMENDED UP TO A MILE BUFFER.
8 AT THE LIVING DESERT RESERVE, THEY STARTED WITH
9 A TWO-MILE BUFFER AROUND THEIR LAMBING PENS. THEY LATER
10 REDUCED THAT, FOUND NO EFFECT. AT THE PRESENT TIME, THERE
11 IS A 30-FOOT BUFFER, AND THEY'VE STILL HAD NO EFFECT. AS
12 A MATTER OF FACT, THEY HAVE THE ANIMALS ON BIRTH CONTROL
13 PILLS SO THEY DON'T OVERPOPULATE THEIR PENS.
14 DISEASE RESEARCH CAN BE DONE IN ALMOST ANY
15 SETTING, BUT IT'S TRUE THAT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE SHEEP
16 THAT ARE IN CAPTIVITY DO REQUIRE A BUFFER SO THAT DISEASE
17 WON'T BE TRANSMITTED BACK TO OTHER ANIMALS IN THE WILD.
18 DOUBLE FENCING HAS BEEN SUGGESTED AS A POSSIBILITY TO
19 ENSURE THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN.
20 THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF HABITUATION IN
21 SHEEP. WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THE SHEEP HABITUATE
22 FAIRLY QUICKLY TO CAPTIVITY, AS CAN BE SEEN IN THE PENS AT
23 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE. I PERSONALLY HAVE BEEN IN THOSE
24 PENS AND HAVE BEEN ABLE TO APPROACH WITHIN TEN FEET OF
25 ANIMALS WITHOUT THEM SPOOKING.
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1 THERE ARE OTHER SEMIDOMESTICATED SHEEP THAT YOU
2 SEE ON THE LAWNS OF SOME OF YOUR LOCAL HOTELS, DOWN IN
3 PEOPLE'S YARDS, EATING THE VEGETATION. AND THEN THERE ARE
4 WILD ANIMALS.
5 ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I HAVE LONG ENCOURAGED
6 JIM DE FORGE AND THE INSTITUTE TO DO IS TO ESTABLISH A
7 WILDING PEN, WHERE ANIMALS CAN BE PLACED AFTER THEY GET
8 OUT OF THE BREEDING PENS OR WHEREVER, BE PLACED TO BECOME
9 WILDER AND MORE FEARFUL OF MAN BEFORE THEY GO BACK INTO
10 THE WILD.
11 AT THE PRESENT TIME, HABITUATED SHEEP ARE BEING
12 RELEASED AS HABITUATED SHEEP, AND THEY END UP ON THE
13 RITZ-CARLTON LAWN, EATING NON-NATIVE VEGETATION. AND
14 ULTIMATELY, THIS WILL BE TO THEIR DETRIMENT.
15 IN THE LAKE MEAD AREA OF SOUTHERN NEVADA, IN
16 WHICH I WORK, WE HAVE A PROBLEM RIGHT NOW BECAUSE SHEEP
17 ARE COMING INTO A PARK ADJACENT TO A MAJOR HIGHWAY GOING
18 INTO LAS VEGAS. SHEEP ARE NOW BECOMING A HAZARD TO
19 TRAFFIC, THEY'RE EATING PEOPLE'S ORNAMENTALS OUT OF THEIR
20 YARDS AND GETTING LANDOWNERS SOMEWHAT IRRITATED, ALTHOUGH
21 OTHER LANDOWNERS LOVE THE SHEEP AND PUT WATER AND OTHER
22 PLANTS OUT FOR THEM.
23 SO THEY CAN BECOME NOT ONLY A PROBLEM FOR
24 LANDOWNERS, BUT A PROBLEM FOR THE SHEEP AS WELL, BECAUSE
25 THIS ISN'T A HEALTHY SITUATION FOR BIGHORN SHEEP. THEY'RE
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1 NOT MEANT TO LIVE THAT WAY. THEY'RE TRULY A WILDERNESS
2 ANIMAL, AND THEY NEED TO BE WILD WHEN THEY'RE RELEASED
3 INTO THE WILD.
4 A FURTHER CONSIDERATION OF THIS IS THAT IF YOU
5 KEEP YOUNG ANIMALS, PARTICULARLY LAMBS, IN CAPTIVITY FOR
6 EXTENDED PERIODS OF TIME, THEY'RE DEPRIVED OF NORMAL
7 INTERACTION WITH OTHER ANIMALS. THEY DON'T HAVE THE FLEE
8 BEHAVIORS, THEY DON'T HAVE THE LEARNING RESPONSES THAT
9 THEY COULD GET IN A NORMAL SITUATION, THEREBY
10 STRENGTHENING THE NEED TO HAVE A WILDING FACILITY.
11 THE CALIFORNIA FISH AND GAME AND U.S. FISH AND
12 WILDLIFE SERVICE AGREE THAT A 400-YARD BUFFER AND OTHER
13 MITIGATION MEASURES THAT S.W.C.A. HAS RECOMMENDED WOULD BE
14 ADEQUATE FOR PROTECTING THE SHEEP. I PERSONALLY FEEL THAT
15 DEVELOPMENT CAN OCCUR WITHIN THAT 400-YARD BUFFER.
16 LONG AGO I RECOMMENDED THAT A FAIRWAY WITH LOW
17 USE AND FAIRLY PREDICTABLE USE WOULD NOT BE DETRIMENTAL TO
18 BIGHORN SHEEP IN ANY WAY. I STILL FEEL THAT WAY. THERE'S
19 NOTHING THAT'S BEEN PUBLISHED IN THE LITERATURE THAT
20 SUGGESTS THAT ANY DISTANCE, ANY SPECIFIC DISTANCE, TEN
21 FEET, 10,000 YARDS, IS THE ADEQUATE DISTANCE, NO MATTER
22 WHAT THE FISH AND GAME SAYS. IT JUST ISN'T ESTABLISHED.
23 I WHY DO WE NEED A BUFFER OF ANY SORT? WELL,
24 THERE'S CONCERN IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY THAT THESE
25 SHEEP SHOULD NOT BE HABITUATED TO MAN, EITHER MAN WORKING
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1 FOR THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE OR MAN ELSEWHERE. SO I SUGGEST
2 THAT WE NEED TO HAVE AT LEAST A WILDING FACILITY AND SOME
3 FURTHER CONSIDERATION.
4 THANK YOU.
5 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, SIR.
6 DR. CAROTHERS: MR. MAYOR, THIS CONCLUDES OUR
7 BIOLOGICAL SECTION. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, I THINK WE
8 CAN WAIT UNTIL LATER ON THAT, OR YOU CAN ASK THEM AT THIS
9 POINT IN TIME. BUT I THINK, IN THE INTERESTS OF TIME,
10 WE'RE READY TO SIT DOWN AND QUIT TALKING ABOUT BIOLOGY.
11 MAYOR SNYDER: I APPRECIATE VERY MUCH YOUR
12 PRESENTATION. AND I THINK WE'VE ALL LEARNED SOMETHING.
13 IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS AT THIS TIME?
14 DR. CAROTHERS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION.
16 DR. CAROTHERS: MR. WHITE, IS IT BACK TO YOU?
17 MR. WHITE: SURE. AS WE APPROACH THE CLOSE OF OUR
18 PRESENTATION, I'D JUST LIKE TO SAY A COUPLE THINGS BEFORE
19 I INTRODUCE ONE LAST SPEAKER HERE.
20 DURING THE HISTORY OF TRYING TO DEAL WITH THE
21 PROBLEM OF RESOLVING THE BUFFER AND THE RELATIONSHIP WITH
22 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE, WE'VE NOTICED -- WE'VE LEARNED A
23 LOT ABOUT SHEEP. AND I THINK THAT ONE OF THE MOST
24 MEANINGFUL THINGS TO COME ALONG IN A LONG TIME WAS THE
25 LETTER FROM U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE DATED JULY 3RD,
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1 1991, WHICH IS IN YOUR RESPONSE TO COMMENTS.
2 AND, BASICALLY, IT SAYS SOME THINGS IN THERE
3 ABOUT THE HERD IN THE SANTA ROSAS. IT SAYS SOME THINGS IN
4 THERE THAT COULD BE DONE TO HELP THAT HERD MORE THAN IS
5 BEING DONE TODAY BY THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE WORKING ON
6 IT, SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS A COMPLEX TASK. AND WE WANT TO
7 BE ON RECORD THAT WE ARE WILLING TO HELP. WE WANT TO HELP
8 THE SHEEP AND WE STAND READY TO DO MORE BECAUSE WE SEE
9 HERE A RARE OPPORTUNITY FOR BOTH. A CLEAR NEED FOR THIS
10 HELP EXISTS, AND OUR ABILITY TO PROVIDE IT EXISTS.
11 WE'VE OFFERED, AT TIMES, TO HELP WITH
12 ADDITIONAL FACILITIES WHICH THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE
13 ALSO RECOGNIZES WOULD BE A HELP TO THE HERD. WE'VE ALSO
14 OFFERED ADDITIONAL FUNDING. FUNDING THAT COULD BE USED
15 FOR CRITICAL RESEARCH, RESEARCH ABOUT -- GENERAL RESEARCH,
16 SPECIFIC RESEARCH, DISEASES, WHAT BEST TO DO ABOUT THE
17 SHEEP, WHAT'S -- FIGHTING THE PROBLEM THAT IT'S ACTUALLY
18 CAUSING UP THERE.
19 WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN VERY FAR WITH THOSE OFFERS.
20 WE HAVEN'T HAD THEM RESPONDED TO READILY. BUT I WANT TO
21 ASSURE YOU THAT THEY ARE ON THE TABLE, AND IT'S SOMETHING
22 THAT IF YOUR COUNCIL WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS IT WITH US,
23 WE'D BE HAPPY TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSIONS AS PART OF THE
24 MITIGATION HEARING.
25 BUT WE NEED YOUR HELP RIGHT NOW FOR THE CITY TO
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1 RESOLVE THIS FOR US.
2 NOW I'D LIKE TO DO -- RICK, ARE YOU READY?
3 MR. ZEILENGA: SURE.
4 MR. WHITE: OKAY. GOOD.
5 ON THE LAND USE ISSUE, I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE
6 MR. RICK ZEILENGA.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
8 MR. ZEILENGA: GOOD EVENING.
9 MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL, ASSEMBLED
10 STAFF, CONSULTANTS.
11 MY NAME IS RICHARD ZEILENGA. I'M AN ATTORNEY
12 WITH THE LAW FIRM OF DE CASTRO, WEST, CHODOROW AND BURNS.
13 WE'RE LOCATED AT 10960 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD, 18TH FLOOR,
14 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90024.
15 WE'VE REPRESENTED MR. HAYHOE AND ALTA MIRA
16 VENTURE FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS NOW AND HAVE BEEN INVOLVED,
17 NOT ONLY INTIMATELY IN THE LITIGATION THAT WE FELT
18 COMPELLED TO FILE AGAINST THE INSTITUTE, BUT ALSO IN THE
19 DAY-TO-DAY EFFORTS TO REACH SOME TYPE OF RESOLUTION WITH
20 THE INSTITUTE ON THIS DISPUTE, AND DESPITE INNUMERABLE
21 EFFORTS TO COMPROMISE -- AND THEY'VE ALL BEEN REJECTED OUT
22 OF HAND BY THE INSTITUTE'S EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR.
23 AND SO WE FIND OURSELVES HERE TONIGHT WITH A
24 PROJECT WHICH IS SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT FROM THE FIRST
25 PROJECT WHICH WAS PROPOSED TO THIS CITY, A PROJECT WHICH
i
1
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1 INCLUDES A SUBSTANTIAL BUFFER WHERE THE FIRST ONE DIDN'T,
2 AND ATTEMPTS TO STRIKE A REAL WORKABLE BALANCE BETWEEN THE
3 CONCERNS OF THE INSTITUTE AND THE PROPERTY RIGHTS OF
4 MR. HAYHOE AND VENTURE.
5 I REALLY BELIEVE THAT IF SOME OF THE OUTSIDE
6 COMMENTATORS, SUCH AS THE NATURAL RESOURCES DEFENSE
7 COUNCIL, THE NRDC, WHO HAVE PRETTY STRONGLY COMMENTED TO
8 THE CITY ON THIS PROJECT AND HAVE EVEN THREATENED THE CITY
9 AND INDIVIDUAL COUNCIL MEMBERS, I REALLY THINK IF THEY HAD
10 BEEN THERE ON THAT DAY-TO-DAY BASIS AND SEEN THE EFFORTS
11 AT COMPROMISE, SEEN ALL THE DIFFERENT REDESIGNS OF THE
12 PROJECT, THAT THEY MIGHT TAKE A DIFFERENT VIEW ON THIS
13 PROJECT, ON THIS CITY, AND THE APPLICANT.
14 AND I REALLY THINK THAT IF THEY HAD COME TO A
15 PUBLIC HEARING LIKE THE ONE TONIGHT AND HEAR THE EVIDENCE
16 I PLAN TO GO OVER, THEY MIGHT TAKE A DIFFERENT VIEW ON
17 THIS PROJECT.
18 THERE ARE THREE TOPICS THAT I WANT TO TOUCH
19 UPON TONIGHT. THE FIRST IS THE ASSURANCES THAT WERE GIVEN
20 BY THE INSTITUTE TO THIS CITY, TO RIVERSIDE COUNTY, AND TO
21 MR. HAYHOE PRIOR TO THEM COMING IN HERE TO OBJECT TO THIS
22 PROJECT.
23 THE SECOND AREA I WANT TO JUST BRIEFLY ADDRESS
24 TONIGHT IS THE TWO LAWSUITS THAT ARE GOING ON AGAINST THE
25 INSTITUTE, KIND OF GIVE YOU JUST A STATUS REPORT. THOSE
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1 LAWSUITS BASICALLY ASK THAT THE INSTITUTE PREPARE AN
2 ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT. DESPITE THEIR CLAIMS HERE
3 THAT THIS E.I.R. IS DEFECTIVE, THEY FOUGHT US TOOTH AND
4 NAIL TO PREPARING AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT ON THEIR
5 BUILDING PROGRAM ON THEIR PROJECT.
6 AND THE THIRD POINT I WANT TO ADDRESS IS JUST
7 THE SWORN EVIDENCE THAT'S COME OUT OF THESE LAWSUITS FROM
8 THE INSTITUTE. IT IS A REAL EYE-OPENER, I ASSURE YOU, TO
9 LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY WHEN THEY ARE UNDER PENALTY OF
10 PERJURY, WHEN IT'S A VERY SERIOUS MATTER, VERSUS WHAT THEY
11 MAY SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, BEFORE THE PLANNING COMMISSION,
12 WHERE THERE AREN'T PENALTIES AND WHERE YOU DON'T
13 NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE AS SERIOUS, I GUESS.
14 WE'VE PREPARED SOME BOOKLETS FOR YOU, WHICH I
15 HAVE HERE. AND THERE'S A STACK OF THEM DOWN HERE, ENOUGH
16 FOR THE COUNCIL AND ENOUGH FOR STAFF. THESE BOOKLETS
17 BASICALLY CONTAIN ALL OF THE EVIDENCE THAT I WILL REFER TO
18 THIS EVENING SO THAT YOU, LATER, WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY
19 TO LOOK AT IT IN BLACK AND WHITE AND MAKE YOUR OWN
20 JUDGMENTS.
21 VERY FREQUENTLY, AFTER I'VE BEEN DONE SPEAKING,
22 REPRESENTIVES OF THE INSTITUTE, MR. KENT ROBERTS,
23 MR. DE FORGE, HAVE COME UP AND SAID, "HE'S JUST ALL WRONG.
24 HE'S ALL WET. HE'S MISLEADING YOU. HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT
25 HE'S TALKING ABOUT."
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1 WELL, I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO
2 DECIDE THAT FOR YOURSELF TONIGHT. THIS THING IS INDEXED,
3 IT'S GOT A DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM. IF THERE'S ANY
4 QUESTION, YOU CAN CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF.
5 WITH THAT, I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE FIRST
6 POINT, WHICH IS THE ASSURANCES THAT WERE GIVEN BY THE
7 INSTITUTE TO MR. HAYHOE. MOST OF YOU ARE NOW FAMILIAR
8 WITH THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS.
9 MR. HAYHOE, ALTA MIRA VENTURE, GOT AN OPTION TO
10 PURCHASE ON THE ALTA MIRA SITE IN THE SPRING OF 1989. IN
11 INVESTIGATING THE PROPERTY, HE WENT UP TO MEET WITH
12 MR. HAYHOE (SIC) WITH HIS SON. HE WENT UP TO THE SITE.
13 HE SHOWED MR. DE FORGE PLANS OF THE SITE, WHAT HE PLANNED
14 TO DO. AND THAT WAS AT A MEETING ON JUNE 7TH, 1989. AND
15 AFTER THAT MEETING, NOT GETTING ANY SERIOUS OBJECTIONS
16 FROM MR. DE FORGE, HE FELT PRETTY GOOD.
17 THE RECORD SHOWS THAT AFTER THAT, MR. DE FORGE
18 IMMEDIATELY BEGAN PROCESSING A ZONE CHANGE AND BUILDING
19 PLAN APPLICATION WITH RIVERSIDE COUNTY ON AN EXPEDITED
20 BASIS TO GET HIS ZONING CHANGED FROM RESIDENTIAL TO
21 NATURAL ASSET TO ALLOW HIM TO KEEP SHEEP THERE.
22 AND THEN, AFTER MR. DE FORGE GOT HIS PROJECT
23 APPROVED BEFORE THE COUNTY, ONLY AFTER THAT, TWO WEEKS
24 LATER, HE SHOWS UP BEFORE THIS CITY AND STARTS CLAIMING
25 THAT HIS PROJECT IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH MR. HAYHOE'S AND
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1 THAT HE NEEDS A MASSIVE ENVIRONMENTAL BUFFER.
2 SO THE QUESTION IS: WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT
3 JUNE 7TH MEETING? WHAT DID HE SAY TO MR. HAYHOE ABOUT HIS
4 PROJECT? I'M NOT GOING TO -- TO SAVE TIME, I'M NOT GOING
5 TO TELL YOU OUR VERSION OF THAT STORY. I'LL JUST TELL YOU
6 WHAT THE INSTITUTE SAYS HAPPENED, WHAT THEY CONCEDE
7 HAPPENED.
8 THEY CONCEDE, IN OUR LAWSUITS, THAT THEY DID
9 HAVE A MEETING. MR. DE FORGE DID HAVE A MEETING WITH
10 MR. HAYHOE AND HIS SON IN JUNE OF 1989. HE CONCEDES THAT
11 MR. DE FORGE (SIC) PROBABLY DID SHOW HIM PLANS FOR HIS
12 PROJECT, ALL LAID OUT, ALL THE HOUSES, ALL THE GOLF
13 COURSES. HE SAYS HE'S NOT SURE, BUT HE THINKS THAT
14 PROBABLY HAPPENED.
15 HE ALSO CONCEDES -- AND THIS IS MOST
16 IMPORTANT -- THAT HE NEVER SAID A WORD, NEVER A WORD,
17 ABOUT AN ENVIRONMENTAL BUFFER OF ANY SIZE, SHAPE, KIND,
18 NOTHING. IN OTHER WORDS, HE NEVER RAISED ANY RED FLAGS
19 THAT WOULD CAUSE ONE TO THINK, "MAYBE I SHOULDN'T BUY THIS
20 PROPERTY NEXT TO HIM." NOTHING LIKE THAT AT ALL.
21 WE ASKED MR. DE FORGE A SPECIFIC QUESTION
22 DURING HIS DEPOSITION. AND MIND YOU, WHEN HE'S ANSWERING
23 THESE QUESTIONS, THEY'RE UNDER OATH. WE ASKED HIM A VERY
24 SPECIFIC QUESTION ON THIS SCORE. QUOTING:
25 QUESTION: "DID YOU AT ANY TIME
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89
1 TELL THE HAYHOES THAT A GOLF COURSE
2 GREEN OR HOLE OR FAIRWAY ADJACENT TO
3 YOUR BOUNDARY LINE WOULD BE A PROBLEM
4 FOR THE BIGHORN SHEEP?"
5 ANSWER: "NO, I DON'T RECALL
6 THAT I WOULD HAVE." CLOSE QUOTES.
7 THE BOTTOM LINE IS, HE DIDN'T TELL THEM WHAT
8 HIS OBJECTION WOULD BE UNTIL SEVERAL WEEKS LATER BEFORE
9 THIS CITY. AND WE SUBMIT THAT THAT WAS VERY UNFAIR.
10 AND WHAT WERE HIS ASSURANCES TO RIVERSIDE
11 COUNTY? HOW DID HE GET HIS BUILDING PROGRAM APPROVED AND
12 HOW DID HE GET HIS ZONE CHANGE ON HIS PROPERTY THROUGH
13 RIVERSIDE COUNTY?
14 YOU MAY BE ASKING YOURSELF, WHY DIDN'T THIS BIG
15 DISPUTE WITH THE INSTITUTE AND ADJACENT DEVELOPMENT COME
16 UP BEFORE? WHY DIDN'T IT COME UP BEFORE THE BUREAU OF
17 LAND MANAGEMENT, WHEN THEY GOT THEIR LAND, OR WHY DIDN'T
18 IT COME UP BEFORE RIVERSIDE COUNTY WHEN THEY GOT THESE
19 APPLICATIONS THROUGH?
20 WELL, THE ANSWER IS THAT IT DID COME UP. A
21 COMMISSIONER ON THE PLANNING COMMISSION OF RIVERSIDE
22 COUNTY WAS THOUGHTFUL ENOUGH TO ASK MR. DE FORGE A
23 QUESTION ABOUT THAT VERY TOPIC. AND WE HAPPEN TO HAVE THE
24 PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES FROM RIVERSIDE COUNTY FOR
25 SEPTEMBER 1989.
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EXHIBIT 'A'
90
1 AND I'D LIKE TO QUOTE YOU JUST A SHORT
2 PARAGRAPH FROM A COMMISSIONER ASKING MR. DE FORGE A
3 QUESTION. QUOTING:
4 "COMMISSIONER BEADLING ASKED ABOUT
5 THE 1,000 HOUSES THAT WILL BE GOING IN
6 NORTH OF THEIR SITE. MR. DE FORGE SAID
7 THAT HE TALKED TO THE DEVELOPER AND
8 UNDERSTOOD THAT IT WILL NOT NECESSARILY
9 BE A HIGH -DENSITY PROJECT, BUT THAT IS
10 AN ISSUE THAT THEY WILL HAVE TO ADDRESS
11 WHEN IT HAPPENS. IT WAS THEIR INTENT TO
12 WALL OFF PEOPLE TO KEEP THEM FROM WALKING
13 ONTO THEIR PROPERTY BECAUSE OF THE NATURE
14 OF THE WORK THAT THEY DO." CLOSE QUOTES.
15 I ASK YOU TO PUT YOURSELF AT THAT PLANNING
16 COMMISSION HEARING AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOUR REACTION
17 WOULD BE TO THAT RESPONSE. SOMEONE ASKS YOU, "DO YOU HAVE
18 A PROBLEM WITH 1,000 HOMES NEXT TO YOUR PROPERTY?"
19 AND THE RESPONSE IS, "I UNDERSTAND IT'S GOING
20 TO BE LOW DENSITY, AND WE'RE GOING TO BUILD A WALL."
21 NEVER A WORD ABOUT ANY DEMAND FOR A MASSIVE ENVIRONMENTAL
22 BUFFER, HUNDREDS OF ACRES. NOTHING LIKE THAT.
23 I SUBMIT IF YOU WERE THERE AND FOUND OUT TWO
24 WEEKS LATER THAT MR. DE FORGE CAME TO THIS CITY AND
25 DEMANDED A HUGE ENVIRONMENTAL BUFFER, YOU'D BE SHOCKED.
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EXHIBIT "A"
91
1 YOU'D BE AMAZED. AND SO WERE WE.
2 AND WHAT WERE MR. DE FORGE'S ASSURANCES TO THIS
3 CITY? HOW DOES THE CITY STAFF FEEL ABOUT THIS DEMAND THAT
4 WE NEED TO HAVE A LARGE ENVIRONMENTAL BUFFER? WELL,
5 APPARENTLY THE CITY STAFF ALSO FEEL THAT THEY WERE MISLED.
6 THERE IS AN ORIGINAL CITY STAFF REPORT ON THIS
7 PROJECT IN NOVEMBER OF 1989. AND I'D LIKE TO QUOTE JUST A
8 LITTLE PIECE OF IT. QUOTING -- THIS IS FROM THE CITY
9 STAFF REPORT.
10 "THE PROBLEM WITH THIS
11 DETERMINATION" --
12 THAT A BUFFER IS NEEDED. THAT'S WHAT THE
13 DETERMINATION IS TALKING ABOUT --
14 -- "IS THAT THE CITY AND ADJACENT
15 PROPERTY OWNERS WERE ASSURED THAT THE
16 INSTITUTE WAS COMPATIBLE WITH PLANNED
17 USES OF ADJACENT LAND WHEN THE COUNTY
18 APPROVED THE INSTITUTE."
19 NOW, PUBLICLY, THE INSTITUTE HAS DENIED EVER
20 MAKING THAT ASSURANCE TO THE CITY. THEY SAY CITY STAFF IS
21 MISTAKEN ON THAT, THAT THEY DIDN'T MAKE THOSE ASSURANCES
22 TO THE CITY. BUT, ONCE AGAIN, WE ASKED MR. DE FORGE ABOUT
23 THAT UNDER OATH DURING HIS DEPOSITION, AND HE SAID TO
24 US -- WE ASKED THIS QUESTION:
25 QUESTION: "WELL, ISN'T IT CORRECT
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EXHIIBIT "A'
92
1 THAT PRIOR TO OBTAINING YOUR APPROVALS
2 FROM RIVERSIDE COUNTY, YOU TOLD PHIL JOY
3 THAT YOUR PROJECT WAS COMPATIBLE WITH
4 SURROUNDING RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT?"
5 ANSWER: "I MIGHT HAVE USED THOSE
6 WORDS." CLOSE QUOTES.
7 WHAT IS THE CONCLUSION ON ALL THESE ASSURANCES?
8 WE THINK, IN CONCLUSION, IT'S VERY UNFORTUNATE, BUT WE
9 BELIEVE THE INSTITUTE BASICALLY MISLED EVERYONE THAT WAS
10 CONCERNED. THEY MISLED THIS CITY, THEY MISLED RIVERSIDE
11 COUNTY, THEY MISLED MR. HAYHOE AND VENTURE.
12 AND IT'S NOT JUST VENTURE THAT FEELS THAT WAY.
13 WE'VE BECOME AWARE THAT CERTAIN OTHER PROPERTY OWNERS
14 AROUND THE INSTITUTE HAVE SUBMITTED LETTERS TO THE CITY IN
15 THE PAST SEVERAL DAYS, THAT OWN PARCELS AROUND THE
16 INSTITUTE, SAYING:
17 "WE HAD NO IDEA THAT THE
18 INSTITUTE WAS MAKING THIS CLAIM
19 THAT IT NEEDS THIS LARGE BUFFER.
20 AND HAD WE KNOWN THAT, WE CERTAINLY
21 WOULD HAVE SHOWN UP AT THE COUNTY
22 HEARINGS ON THE INSTITUTE PROJECT.
23 WE ARE AMAZED. AND WE THINK IT'S
24 VERY UNFAIR BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN GOOD
25 NEIGHBORS TO THE INSTITUTE."
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EXHIBIT 'A'
93
1 THE SECOND AREA I WANT TO BRIEFLY TOUCH UPON IS
2 THE STATUS OF THE LITIGATION AGAINST THE INSTITUTE. IT'S
3 REALLY JUST A VERY PRACTICAL POINT. THOSE LAWSUITS
4 REQUEST THAT THE INSTITUTE PREPARE AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT
5 REPORT.
6 THEY COME HERE AND THEY CHALLENGE US, AFTER WE
7 PREPARED TWO ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS. SURELY, THEY
8 MUST PREPARE AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT WHEN THEY'RE
9 BUILDING A 6800-SQUARE-FOOT LABORATORY, THEY PLAN TO BUILD
10 A FUTURE PUBLIC MUSEUM, THEY'RE GOING TO BUILD A BUS AND
11 AUTO PARKING LOT FOR THAT MUSEUM AND A HELIPAD. IT'S ALL
12 IN THE PLOT PLAN THAT THEY SUBMITTED TO RIVERSIDE COUNTY
13 TO BE APPROVED, AND IT'S IN THIS PACKET OF MATERIALS UNDER
14 TAB NO. 11. THE BIG PLOT PLAN SHOWS ALL THE BUILDINGS
15 THEY WANT.
16 IF WE HAVE TO DO AN E.I.R. FOR THE PROJECT,
17 WHEN WE'VE REDESIGNED IT SO THAT THE GOLFERS ARE HUNDREDS
18 OF YARDS FROM THE INSTITUTE'S PENS, THEN SURELY, WHEN
19 THEY'RE BUILDING ALL THOSE BUILDINGS SO CLOSE TO THE PENS
20 ON THEIR PROPERTY, THAT THEY SHOULD DO LIKEWISE. WE THINK
21 THEIR OBJECTION TO THAT IS AN INCONSISTENCY AND A GREAT
22 UNFAIRNESS TO THEIR POSITION HERE.
23 THE QUESTION IS: HOW DID THEY GET THIS BIG
24 BUILDING PROGRAM PAST RIVERSIDE COUNTY? I MEAN DIDN'T THE
25 COUNTY WANT TO LOOK AT THIS BUILDING PROGRAM? WEREN'T
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EXHIBIT 'A'
94
1 THEY CONCERNED ABOUT THESE SHEEP? WELL, THE ANSWER TO
2 THAT IS, THE COUNTY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING.
3 WE HAVE WITH US THE ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT
4 THAT RIVERSIDE COUNTY PREPARED ON THIS PROJECT. AND
5 THERE'S A QUESTION IN THIS ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT ABOUT
6 WHETHER THE PROJECT IS A NOISE -SENSITIVE PROJECT. IN
7 OTHER WORDS, WHETHER KEEPING THOSE SHEEP THERE IS A
8 NOISE -SENSITIVE PROJECT, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE
9 VOTING ON WITH THE ZONE CHANGE.
10 ON PAGE 2 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT --
11 IT'S ALSO IN THE PACKET I'VE GOT FOR YOU -- THERE'S A
12 QUESTION NO. 17. AND IT SAYS "NOISE -SENSITIVE PROJECT,"
13 AND THEN YOU CAN PUT YES OR NO. AND THE LETTER "N" FOR NO
14 IS ENTERED IN THERE.
15 AND SO BEFORE RIVERSIDE COUNTY, THE SHEEP ARE
16 NOT NOISE -SENSITIVE, AND SO THE PROJECT IS APPROVED
17 WITHOUT AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT. BUT HERE, THE
18 SHEEP ARE VERY NOISE -SENSITIVE. WE THINK THAT'S VERY
19 UNFAIR.
20 AND WHAT, IN MY THIRD AREA, IS THE SWORN
21 EVIDENCE THAT'S COME OUT OF THE INSTITUTE IN THESE
22 PROCEEDINGS? THE INSTITUTE'S ADMISSIONS HAVE BEEN VERY
23 INTERESTING.
24 AND THE FIRST ONE IS A VERY, VERY PECULIAR ONE,
25 AND I'M SURE YOU'LL THINK IT'S SENSATIONAL, BUT IN THE
1
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95
1 CONTEXT OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE HERE, I THINK IT'S
2 IMPORTANT. AND THAT IS THE INSTITUTE'S ADMISSIONS -- WE
3 HEARD REPORTS AND WE ASKED THEM ABOUT IT, IF THEY'D BEEN
4 USING ELECTRIC CATTLE PRODS UP THERE ON THOSE BIGHORN
5 SHEEP. WE SAID, "THIS CAN'T POSSIBLY BE TRUE. I MEAN,
6 YOU KNOW, SHEEP ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SO SENSITIVE. THEY
7 CAN'T BE DOING THIS."
8 BUT WE ASKED THEM ABOUT IT. WE DID A REQUEST
9 FOR ADMISSION TO THEM, WHICH THEY ARE SWORN TO ANSWER, AND
10 THEY VERIFY IT UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY. AND WE ASKED
11 THEM TO ADMIT THAT EMPLOYEES, OFFICERS, AND/OR MEMBERS OF
12 THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE HAVE USED
13 ELECTRIC CATTLE PRODS ON THE CAPTIVE BIGHORN SHEEP LOCATED
14 ON THE INSTITUTE'S LANDS.
15 AND THEIR RESPONSE IS, QUOTING:
16 "EMPLOYEES OF THE INSTITUTE
17 HAVE SO USED ELECTRIC CATTLE PRODS,
18 BUT ONLY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM
19 CHARGING RAMS AND ONLY RARELY AT
20 THAT."
21 IN THE CON -- CLOSE QUOTES. IN THE CONTEXT OF
22 THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE BEFORE YOU, THIS BUFFER, WHERE
23 GOLFERS 100 YARDS AWAY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TOO STRESSFUL
24 FOR THIS BIGHORN, WHAT ABOUT ZAPPING THEM WITH AN ELECTRIC
25 CATTLE PROD? I MEAN IS IT TOO STRESSFUL TO HAVE PEOPLE
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1 TALKING AT A NORMAL LEVEL 100 YARDS AWAY, BUT NOT
2 STRESSFUL TO ZAP THEM WITH THE CATTLE PROD? IT'S JUST
3 ABSURD. IT'S ABSOLUTELY ABSURD.
4 THE NEXT THING WE ASKED THEM ABOUT WAS THEIR
5 USE OF HELICOPTERS ON THEIR PROPERTY. WE HEARD REPORTS
6 THAT THEY HAD HELICOPTERS TAKING OFF AND LANDING THERE,
7 AND SO WE ASKED THEM ABOUT IT. WE ASKED THEM, QUOTING:
8 "THE NOISE GENERATED BY
9 IRREGULAR HELICOPTER TAKE -OFFS
10 AND LANDINGS MAY CAUSE STRESS UPON
11 THE CAPTIVE BIGHORN SHEEP, THEREBY
12 ADVERSELY AFFECTING REPRODUCTION
13 AND LAMBING." CLOSE QUOTES.
14 THEIR RESPONSE, QUOTING:
15 "THE INSTITUTE RESPONDS THAT
16 HELICOPTER TAKE -OFFS AND LANDINGS
17 CONDUCTED BY THE INSTITUTE HAVE BEEN
18 AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE LIMITED IN
19 NUMBER AND CONDUCTED IN A MANNER SO
20 AS TO AVOID STRESS TO THE BIGHORN
21 SHEEP." CLOSE QUOTES.
22 ISN'T THAT AMAZING? YOU CAN HAVE HELICOPTERS
23 TAKING OFF AND LANDING AT THE INSTITUTE, AND IT'S OKAY.
24 IT DOESN'T CAUSE TOO MUCH STRESS TO THE SHEEP. BUT
25 GOLFERS TALKING 100 YARDS AWAY? THAT'S TOO STRESSFUL.
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EXHIBIT *A"
97
1 IT'S RIDICULOUS.
2 THE THIRD THING I WANT TO TALK ABOUT IS THE
3 INSTITUTE'S ADMISSIONS CONCERNING ITS SITE SELECTION. AND
4 THIS WAS AN ISSUE THAT WAS OF CRITICAL IMPORTANCE TO THE
5 PLANNING COMMISSION. THEY WERE VERY INTERESTED IN THE
6 FAIRNESS QUESTION AND HOW THE INSTITUTE COULD CHOOSE ITS
7 PEN SITES AND CHOOSE THAT LOCATION, KNOWING EVERYTHING IT
8 DID, AND THEN COME IN HERE AND ASK FOR THIS MASSIVE
9 BUFFER.
10 SO WE ASKED THEM ABOUT THE SITE SELECTION, AND
11 IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THE INSTITUTE SELECTED THAT SITE
12 BECAUSE IT WANTED TO BE NEAR URBAN SURFACES, NOT OUT IN
13 THE BOONDOCKS, AND IT BELIEVED THAT THAT 293-ACRE SITE WAS
14 BIG ENOUGH SO THAT IT WOULDN'T HAVE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT
15 SURROUNDING DEVELOPMENT.
16 BEAR WITH ME FOR JUST A LITTLE BIT. QUOTING:
17 QUESTION: "NOW, IN LOOKING AT
18 THE SIX SITES" --
19 THIS IS A QUESTION TO MR. DE FORGE. QUOTING:
20 QUESTION: "NOW, IN LOOKING AT
21 THE SIX SITES, WHAT WERE YOUR CRITERIA
22 FOR DETERMINING WHETHER A SITE WAS AN
23 OPTIMAL SITE OR NOT AN OPTIMAL SITE?"
24 ANSWER: "WE WANTED SOMETHING OUT
25 OF BIGHORN -- PRIMARY BIGHORN HABITAT."
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EXHIBIT 'A'
1 QUESTION: "DID YOU WANT TO BE
2 ISOLATED FROM HUMAN HABITATION OR
3 RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT?"
4 ANSWER: "NO. WE WANTED TO BE
5 AROUND THE CENTER OF THE STUDY AREA,
6 NOT WAY OUT IN THE BOONDOCKS."
7 QUESTION: "WELL, ISN'T IT YOUR
8 ANSWER, THEN, THAT YOU DIDN'T CARE
9 WHETHER YOU HAD HUMAN DEVELOPMENT
10 ADJACENT TO A SITE YOU SELECTED?"
11 THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
12 ANSWER: "NO. WE HAD WHAT WE
13 WERE LOOKING FOR, WAS ENOUGH ACREAGE
14 TO WHERE WE COULD CONTROL NOT HAVING
15 BUILDING CONCERNS AND THAT IN THE
16 FUTURE."
17 QUESTION: "DID YOU BELIEVE 293
18 ACRES WAS SUFFICIENT TO KEEP YOU
19 SUFFICIENTLY ISOLATED FROM HUMAN
20 HABITATION?"
21 ANSWER: "IN THAT CASE, WE THOUGHT
22 THAT WAS THE BEST SITE THAT WE HAD
23 AVAILABLE TO US IN THE VALLEY."
24 END OF QUOTE.
25 THAT LAST ANSWER REALLY DOESN'T ANSWER THE
98
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EXHIBIT "A'
99
1 QUESTION. I CALL THAT A DE FORGE -ISM. HE KIND OF SEES
2 WHERE WE'RE GOING, AND AT THE END HE DOESN'T WANT TO
3 ANSWER.
4 BUT I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HE SAID, YOU
5 CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT THE REAL STORY IS. HE SAYS HE DIDN'T
6 WANT TO BE IN THE BOONDOCKS. THAT'S HIS WORDS. AND HE
7 SAYS THAT THEY HAD CONCERNS ABOUT DEVELOPMENT, AND SO THEY
8 SELECTED THAT 293-ACRE SITE BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT WAS
9 BIG ENOUGH TO ADDRESS THOSE CONCERNS.
10 SO WHY DOES HE PUT HIS SHEEP PEN RIGHT ON THE
11 BORDER OF HIS PROPERTY WITH HIS NEIGHBOR IF HE'S GOT A
12 293-ACRE SITE? EITHER HE WASN'T CONCERNED THAT THERE
13 WOULD BE IMPACTS TO THE SHEEP AND, THEREFORE, THE
14 OBJECTIONS HERE AREN'T VERY SINCERE, OR HE KNEW FROM THE
15 VERY BEGINNING, WHEN HE MADE THAT CHOICE, THAT HE WAS
16 GOING TO MAKE HIS NEIGHBOR PAY FOR IT. AND THAT IS NOT
17 RIGHT.
18 CHOICES. CHOICES IS WHAT IS DISCUSSED IN THE
19 LAND USE SECTION OF THE E.I.R. AND IT'S AN EXCELLENT
20 DISCUSSION. CHOICES THAT THE INSTITUTE MADE AND HAS TO
21 LIVE WITH. WE COMMEND TO YOUR READING PAGES 130 -- THAT'S
22 130 TO 134 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT. THOSE
23 PAGES DISCUSS THE HISTORY OF THIS DISPUTE, THE INSTITUTE'S
24 CHOICES, AND THE FACT THAT THE INSTITUTE KNEW, WHEN IT
25 PICKED ITS SITE AND WHEN IT PICKED ITS PEN SITE, THAT
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EXHIBIT "A"
100
1 THERE WAS GOING TO BE RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT NEXT DOOR.
2 AND WE THINK THERE'S AN EXCELLENT DISCUSSION
3 THERE. THE INSTITUTE'S DEMANDS NOW ARE BASICALLY AN
4 ATTEMPT TO RECUT THE DEAL, TO CHANGE THE SITUATION FROM
5 WHAT IT KNEW WOULD EXIST WHEN IT PICKED ITS CURRENT
6 LOCATION AND PUT ITS PEN WHERE IT DID. AND WE SUBMIT THAT
7 TRYING TO RECUT THE DEAL WHEN YOU KNEW THE CONSEQUENCES OF
8 IT IS NOT RIGHT.
9 THE NEXT AREA I WANT TO TOUCH ON BRIEFLY IS
10 JUST THE INSTITUTE'S ADMISSIONS CONCERNING WHAT EFFECT
11 THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT THIS PROJECT, THE ALTA MIRA
12 PROJECT, WILL HAVE ON THE BIGHORN SHEEP AT THE INSTITUTE.
13 SWORN TO TELL THE TRUTH, UNDER PENALTY OF
14 PERJURY, IT BASICALLY COMES OUT THAT DE FORGE ADMITS THERE
15 IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT WILL
16 ADVERSELY IMPACT THE BREEDING OF SHEEP AT THE INSTITUTE,
17 LAMBING.
18 THE FOLLOWING TWO QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
19 DEMONSTRATE THE POINT. QUOTING:
20 QUESTION: "IS THERE ANY DEMON-
21 STRABLE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT HUMAN
22 ACTIVITY SUCH AS THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT
23 HAS ANY DELETERIOUS EFFECT ON LIVE
24 BIRTHS OF SHEEP, BIGHORN SHEEP?"
25 DE FORGE'S ANSWER: "NO." CLOSE
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EXHIBIT 'A'
101
1 QUOTES. QUOTING:
2 QUESTION: "CAN YOU SIT THERE AS
3 A SCIENTIST AND TELL ME,, TO YOUR
4 OBSERVATION, THAT THE LAMBS AT THE
5 BIGHORN INSTITUTE HAVE BEEN ADVERSELY
6 AFFECTED BY THE HUMAN ACTIVITY THAT
7 GOES ON AROUND THEM?"
8 ANSWER: "ADVERSELY IMPACTED? NO."
9 CLOSE QUOTES.
10 THOSE ADMISSIONS GO TO THE VERY HEART OF YOUR
11 DECISION HERE TONIGHT ABOUT THIS BUFFER AND ABOUT THE
12 ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES OF THIS PROJECT. AND I SUBMIT TO YOU
13 THAT REQUIRING A GREATER ENVIRONMENTAL BUFFER THAN HAS
14 BEEN TALKED ABOUT BY THE STAFF AND MR. HAYHOE AND THE
15 CONSULTANTS WOULD BE A GROSS INJUSTICE HERE IN LIGHT OF
16 MR. DE FORGE'S ADMISSIONS UNDER OATH THAT THERE IS NO
17 IMPACT -- SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ANY IMPACT UPON
18 HIS PROJECT.
19 THE LAST THING I WANT TO TALK ABOUT IS PERHAPS
20 THE MOST EXCITING THING, AND I ENJOY THE MOST, AND THAT IS
21 THE INSTITUTE'S BUILDING PROGRAM. YOU WOULD THINK THAT
22 SINCE THEY'RE DEMANDING A HUGE ENVIRONMENTAL BUFFER ON OUR
23 PROJECT THAT THEY WOULD HAVE, ON THEIR OWN PROJECT,
24 INCORPORATED AT LEAST THAT SIZE BUFFER, AT LEAST, OR THE
25 SAME. YOU'D THINK SO, BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE.
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EXHIBIT 'A'
102
6 1 WHAT WE'VE DONE IS TAKEN THE INSTITUTE'S PLOT
2 PLAN THAT WAS SUBMITTED TO RIVERSIDE COUNTY WITH THEIR
3 BUILDING REQUESTS, AND WE'VE BLOWN IT UP FOR YOU, BUT THE
4 PROPORTIONS ARE THE SAME. AND WE'VE COLORED IT IN SO YOU 1
5 CAN SEE WHERE THEY WANT TO BUILD BUILDINGS AND WHERE THEIR
6 PENS ARE. AND WHAT WE'VE DONE IS, WE'VE PUT A 400-YARD
7 ARC AROUND THE INSTITUTE'S 30-ACRE PEN SO YOU CAN SEE
8 WHERE THEIR BUILDINGS ARE WITHIN THAT 400-YARD ARC.
9 AND ISN'T IT AMAZING THAT, WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT,
10 THERE ARE A BIG PUBLIC MUSEUM PLANNED, A BIG
11 LABORATORY/ADMINISTRATION BUILDING, APPARENTLY WITHIN
12 ABOUT 100 YARDS OF THE LAMBING PEN. AND THEN OVER HERE,
13 WE SEE A BIG AUTO/BUS PARKING LOT, AND UP HERE WE SEE A
14 HELIC,OPTER PAD. AND THAT'S ALL WITHIN THE 400-YARD ARC OF
15 THE INSTITUTE'S PENS.
16 I THINK THAT THAT DIAGRAM FITS THE OLD
17 EXPRESSION THAT A PICTURE CAN BE WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS.
18 I'VE SAID A LOT OF WORDS TO YOU TONIGHT, BUT WHEN YOU LOOK
19 AT THAT, THEIR ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. WHEN
20 THEIR DECISION IS WHAT TO DO, THEY PUT THE BUILDINGS RIGHT
21 NEAR THE PEN. IN THE PROJECT THAT WE HAVE DESIGNED, ON
22 OUR OWN INITIATIVE, HOMES AREN'T ANYWHERE AS CLOSE AS THE
23 BUILDINGS THE INSTITUTE PLANS ON ITS AREA.
24 NOW, I KNOW WHAT THE INSTITUTE SAYS IN RESPONSE
25 TO THIS BECAUSE I'VE HEARD IT. AND WHAT THEY SAY IS, "THE
1
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6 1 COUNTY DIDN'T APPROVE ALL OF THAT. THEY ONLY APPROVED
2 PART OF IT, AND WE REALLY DON'T PLAN TO DO IT ANYMORE.
3 WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT."
4 BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT, IS IT? THE POINT IS
5 WHEN THEY SUMBITTED THE PLAN, THEY HAD TO SAY WHAT THEY
6 WANTED TO DO. THEY HIRED AN ARCHITECT. THE ARCHITECT
7 STRUCTURED IT ACCORDING TO THEIR INSTRUCTIONS.
8 AND APPARENTLY, WHEN THEY SUBMITTED THAT PLAN
9 WITH THOSE BUILDINGS WHERE THEY ARE, SUMMER OF 1989, THEY
10 BELIEVED THAT WAS JUST FINE. THEY BELIEVED THAT HAVING
11 BUILDINGS THAT CLOSE TO THE PEN WAS PERFECTLY FINE.
12 SO THEY CAN CHANGE THEIR STORY NOW AND SAY,
13 "OH, DON'T WORRY. WE REALLY DON'T PLAN ON DOING IT." BUT
14 IT SHOWS WHAT THEY BELIEVED THEN. AND IT'S THAT THESE
15 BUILDINGS HAVE NO IMPACT. THE SHEEP MUST BE HABITUATED.
16 WHO KNOWS WHAT THEIR RESPONSE IS? I DON'T KNOW WHETHER
17 IT'S THAT THEY THINK THE SHEEP WON'T BE AFFECTED OR THEY
18 DIDN'T THINK IT WOULD BE A BIG DEAL FOR THEM.
19 BUT IN ANY EVENT, THEIR DEMANDS HERE CERTAINLY
20 AREN'T CONSISTENT WITH WHAT THEIR PLANS WERE WHEN THEY
21 SUBMITTED THEIR PLANS TO THE COUNTY.
22 IN CONCLUSION, I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT THIS IS
23 NOT A SITUATION OF DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH. IF IT WERE,
24 THERE WOULD ALREADY BE HOMES AND A GOLF COURSE AT THE ALTA
25 MIRA PROJECT SITE. INSTEAD, WE'VE HAD TWO YEARS OF THIS.
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1 TWO YEARS OF TRYING COME UP WITH WITH SOME SOLUTION TO
2 ADDRESS ALL THESE CONCERNS.
3 AND IT FINALLY BECAME CLEAR THAT WE WEREN'T
4 GOING TO GET THE INSTITUTE'S CONSENT, SO WE DESIGNED THE
5 PROJECT TO INCLUDE A BUFFER, AND NOW WE'RE HERE TONIGHT
6 ASKING FOR A DECISION FROM YOU TONIGHT.
7 I THINK THE LAST WORDS OF THE CALIFORNIA
8 SUPREME COURT, IN THEIR MOST RECENT DECISION ON THE
9 CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY ACT, WHICH IS WHAT YOU'RE
10 LOOKING AT TONIGHT, ARE VERY APPLICABLE HERE TO YOUR
11 DECISION. AND THIS IS WHAT THE CALIFORNIA SUPREME COURT
12 HAD TO SAY ABOUT ALL THESE DISPUTES THAT HAVE BEEN COMING
13 UP OVER CEQA. QUOTING:
14 "WE CAUTION THAT RULES REGULAT-
15 ING THE PROTECTION OF THE ENVIRONMENT
16 MUST NOT BE SUBVERTED INTO AN
17 INSTRUMENT FOR THE OPPRESSION AND DELAY
18 OF SOCIAL, ECONOMIC, OR RECREATIONAL
19 DEVELOPMENT AND ADVANCEMENT." CLOSE QUOTES.
20 TWO YEARS OF THIS IS ENOUGH. IT'S TIME TO MOVE
21 ON. WE URGE YOU TO APPROVE THIS PROJECT BECAUSE IT IS THE
22 RIGHT DECISION AND IT IS, OBVIOUSLY, THE FAIR DECISION.
23 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
24 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
25 MR. WHITE: WHEN I STARTED THIS PRESENTATION THIS
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105
1 EVENING, I MENTIONED TO YOUR COUNCIL THAT I DIDN'T THINK
2 THAT THESE ISSUES WERE VERY COMPLEX. I THINK I'M ABOUT TO
3 CHANGE MY MIND. THIS HAS TURNED OUT TO BE A VERY COMPLEX
4 ISSUE, BUT I HOPE WE'VE CERTAINLY PUT THESE THINGS INTO
5 PERSPECTIVE.
6 THERE IS ONE LAST THING, ON THE POINT OF
7 FAIRNESS, THAT I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION. I'D LIKE TO STAND
8 UP FOR SOME OF THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO AREN'T HERE THIS
9 EVENING AND HAVE FILED LETTERS TO YOU ON THEIR BEHALF.
10 I'D LIKE TO SHOW YOU ONE MORE EXHIBIT, IF I
11 MIGHT, BEFORE I GET TO THE PART THAT WE'RE ALL WAITING
12 FOR, AND THAT'S THE DRAMATIC CLOSE.
13 THIS MAP REQUIRES JUST A LITTLE BIT OF
14 EXPLAINING BECAUSE IT'S SLIGHTLY OUT OF REGISTER WITH
15 EVERYTHING ELSE.
16 THIS IS HIGHWAY 74, RIGHT HERE ON THIS MAP.
17 THIS IS THE SOUTH HALF OF OUR PROJECT UP IN THIS AREA, AND
18 THIS IS THE BIGHORN FACILITY AND THIS IS THE LAMBING PEN.
19 WHAT THIS HAS HERE, ON OUR PROPERTY, IS THE BUFFER THAT
20 THE INSTITUTE IS CURRENTLY RECOMMENDING ON OUR PROPERTY.
21 AND WE THINK THAT, SO FAR, THIS HAS BEEN
22 PROTRAYED SLIGHTLY WRONG ABOUT THE BIG GUY AND THE LITTLE
23 GUY. THIS HAS BEEN VERY FOCUSED SO FAR AS AN ISSUE
24 BETWEEN THE INSTITUTE AND ALTA MIRA. AND SO FAR, IT'S
25 BEEN VERY FOCUSED ON WHERE IS THE BUFFER AND ON WHAT PIECE
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106
1 OF PROPERTY IS THAT BUFFER LYING IN ALTA MIRA?
2 WHAT WE DID -- WE STARTED TO GET PHONE CALLS,
3 AND SO WE TOOK THE MINIMUM DIMENSION OF 600 YARDS THAT
4 THEY'RE CURRENTLY ADVOCATING RIGHT IN THIS LOCATION HERE,
5 AND PLOTTED IT AROUND THE PEN TO SHOW WHAT THE IMPACT OF
6 WHAT THAT BUFFER WOULD BE IF IT WERE EXTENDED IN ALL
7 DIRECTIONS.
8 WE DID THAT BECAUSE WE GOT A CALL FROM A
9 PROPERTY OWNER. HIS NAME WAS MR. BIEDERMAN. HE'S LOCATED
10 RIGHT HERE. HE OWNS 4.75 ACRES THERE. HE WAS CONTACTED A
11 COUPLE WEEKS AGO BY THE INSTITUTE AND INFORMED THAT THEY
12 FELT HIS PROPERTY WOULD BE NEEDED IN A BUFFER ALSO.
13 WE ALL KNOW, ALSO, THAT THE EXHIBITS THAT THEY
14 HAVE FILED ALSO SHOW THAT WESTINGHOUSE IS ALSO IN A BUFFER
15 AREA. THE BUFFER WOULD ALSO TAKE IN MR. STEWART'S
16 PROPERTY. YOU HAVE A LETTER FROM MR. STEWART OPPOSING
17 THIS, BECAUSE HE ALSO WAS CAUGHT BY SURPRISE. AND IT ALSO
18 CATCHES A PIECE OF MR. SHIRLEY'S PROPERTY OVER HERE.
19 SO THE BUFFER ISN'T AT ALL AN ALTA MIRA ISSUE.
20 NOT AT ALL. AND IT'S NOT AN ISSUE OF ALTA MIRA VERSUS THE
21 INSTITUTE ON THE BUFFER OR THE LOCATION.
22 MR. DEL GAGNON, THROUGH HERE, IS THE CLOSEST TO
23 THE INSTITUTE OF EVERYONE. THE BUFFER ON OUR PROPERTY
24 ACCOMPLISHES OR TAKES IN SOMEWHERE AROUND A 135 ACRES. AS
25 IT'S CURRENTLY DRAWN, OR ADVOCATED, IT WOULD TAKE,
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1 VIRTUALLY, 100 PERCENT OF MR. GAGNON'S PROPERTY.
2 AND I ASK YOU: WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS IN THAT?
3 BUT THAT'S SOMETHING, I THINK, THAT THESE PROPERTY OWNERS
4 HAVE AND WILL SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES HERE, EITHER THIS
5 EVENING OR WITH LETTERS ON FILE.
6 THIS EVENING I THINK WE'VE TRIED TO SHOW THAT
7 OUR PROJECT IS WELL DESIGNED. IT HAS SIGNIFICANT OPEN
8 SPACE, IT IS VERY SENSITIVE TO ITS LOCATION, IT IS THE
9 RIGHT PRODUCT FOR THE LOCATION. IT IS, IN FACT, THE
10 LOW -DENSITY ALTERNATIVE FOR PALM DESERT.
11 IT'S ALSO SENSITIVE TO THE ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE
12 IT USES DESERT THEMES AND AN EXCELLENT TRANSITIONAL
13 LANDSCAPE MATERIAL. IT'S VERY SENSITIVE TO THE USE OF
14 VEGETATION. IT IS NOT VISUALLY INTRUSIVE, AND IT'S THE
15 BEST LOW -DENSITY ALTERNATIVE.
16 ON BIOLOGY, I THINK WE'VE HANDLED THE DESERT
17 TORTOISE ISSUES, THE DESERT WASH ISSUES VERY WELL. WE'VE
18 ALSO HANDLED THE DESERT -- THE BIGHORN HABITAT AND THE
19 BUFFER BETWEEN THE INSTITUTE VERY WELL.
20 AND ON LAND USE, I THINK WE'VE TRIED TO
21 DEMONSTRATE THAT IT'S NOT OUR OWN CREATION, THE ISSUE OVER
22 THIS BUFFER, OR WHERE WE'RE LOCATED.
23 AND I'D LIKE TO WRAP UP THE LAND USE AND THE
24 SETTLEMENT ATTEMPTS AND AGAIN REFER BACK TO FISH AND
25 WILDLIFE, BECAUSE THERE ARE ADDITIONAL MITIGATION MEASURES
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108
1 THAT COULD BE IMPOSED THAT WE'D BE WILLING TO PARTICIPATE
2 IN. THOSE ARE ALTERNATIVES THAT NOT ONLY MITIGATE THE
3 LAND USE, BUT ALSO COULD BE USED IN SETTLEMENT. AND THOSE
4 ARE THE ALTERNATIVES THE FISH AND WILDLIFE AGENCY -- OR
5 SERVICE HAS RECOMMENDED.
6 WE WANT TO BE PART AND WE WANT TO DO OUR SHARE
7 BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT ONLY BENEFIT THE INSTITUTE, BUT ALSO,
8 AS THEY INDICATED, BENEFIT THE HERD IN THE SANTA ROSAS
9 MORE. BUT UP TILL NOW WE'VE HAD THOSE ON THE TABLE AND WE
10 HAVEN'T HAD ANYONE ACCEPT THEM.
11 THAT ENDS OUR PRESENTATION TONIGHT, AND WE
12 CERTAINLY ASK FOR YOUR VOTE IN FAVOR OF OUR PROJECT.
13 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
14 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
15 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: MR. MAYOR, THE CITY ATTORNEY
16 HAS A QUESTION OF THE APPLICANT REGARDING THE CONDITIONS.
17 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: MR. MAYOR, MAY I ASK THE
18 APPLICANT IF HE HAS HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THE
19 MITIGATION MEASURES AND WHETHER HE IS IN AGREEMENT WITH
20 THEM, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT I READ INTO THE RECORD
21 TONIGHT? I'D LIKE TO HEAR FROM THE APPLICANT ON THAT
22 POINT.
23 MR. WHITE: IF YOU WOULD CONTINUE WITH YOUR HEARING
24 AND GIVE US THE LATEST COPY TO VERIFY, WE CAN GET BACK TO
25 YOU, PROBABLY WITHIN 15 MINUTES, WITH AN ANSWER.
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109
1 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: I DON'T KNOW IF I HAVE THE
2 LATEST COPIES OR NOT. THAT'S MY QUESTION.
3 MR. WHITE: THAT'S MY ANSWER, I GEUSS.
4 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: DID YOU HEAR WHAT I READ
5 INTO THE RECORD?
6 MR. WHITE: I HEARD THAT, YES. I'M QUESTIONING THE
7 REST OF THE STAFF REPORT. I DON'T KNOW IF I HAVE A
8 COMPLETE COPY.
9 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT.
10 MR. WHITE: BUT I WILL RESPOND THIS EVENING BEFORE WE
11 CLOSE, IF YOU GIVE ME THE LATEST COPY, PLEASE.
12 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: MAY I ASK, THEN, AT THIS
13 POINT, THEN, WITH RESPECT TO THE AREAS THAT I SPECIFICALLY
14 READ INTO THE RECORD? IS THAT IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU?
15 WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
16 MR. WHITE: YES, WE WILL.
17 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: OKAY.
18 I'D LIKE TO ADD, IF I COULD, JUST ONE FINAL
19 REVISION, IF I MIGHT, AND THAT IS TO ADD THE FOLLOWING
20 SENTENCE, PLEASE, TO MITIGATION MEASURE NO. 20. I WOULD
21 ASK THE FOLLOWING BE ADDED:
22 "THE REVISION OF THE TENTATIVE
23 TRACT MAP TO REFLECT THE 400-YARD
24 BUFFER SHALL BE DEEMED IN SUBSTANTIAL
25 COMPLIANCE WITH THE ORIGINAL APPROVED
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EXHIBIT 'A"
110
1 MAP PURSUANT TO THE SUBDIVISION MAP
2 ACT."
3 THAT'S REALLY A HOUSEKEEPING ITEM MORE THAN
4 ANYTHING ELSE.
5 THANK YOU.
6 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
7 ANY OTHER MEMBERS OF THE STAFF OR THE
8 COUNCIL -- ANY QUESTIONS RELATIVE TO THE PRESENTATION?
9 IF NOT, IT IS NOW TIME TO ASK THE BIGHORN SHEEP
10 PEOPLE TO MAKE THEIR PRESENTATION.
11 MR. ROBERTS: MAYOR SNYDER, MY NAME IS KENT ROBERTS,
12 PRESIDENT OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE THIS YEAR, AND I
13 APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK HERE TONIGHT.
14 I DID PASS OUT, A FEW MINUTES AGO -- PARDON
15 ME -- TWO AND A HALF HOURS AGO, BASICALLY, A LIST OF THE
16 SPEAKERS WE HAVE FOR US TONIGHT REPRESENTING THE
17 INSTITUTE.
18 IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO BEGIN. MR. ZEILENGA
19 HAS BEEN ALLOWED TONIGHT, BASICALLY, TO MAKE A VERY LONG
20 CLOSING PRESENTATION THAT YOU WOULD EXPECT AT A TRIAL.
21 AFTER HE DID THAT, HE TRIED THE CASE AND THEN BASICALLY
22 SAID, "HERE IS WHAT THE DECISION THAT'S GOING TO BE
23 RENDERED."
24 NOW, I'M A PRETTY FAST WRITER, BUT I GOT
25 WRITER'S CRAMP AFTER THE FIRST TEN MINUTES. NO WAY I
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111
1 COULD KEEP UP WITH ALL OF THE, IN MY OPINION, HALF-TRUTHS,
2 BECAUSE THERE IS TWO SIDES OF THE STORY.
3 AND BECAUSE THIS THING IS UNDER LITIGATION, I'M
4 STANDING BEFORE YOU TONIGHT AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT TO DO.
5 I COULD TRY AND RESPOND TO THAT HALF-HOUR'S WORTH OF CASE,
6 WHICH I'M SURE TOOK A LONG TIME TO FORM, BUT I DON'T HAVE
7 A LIST OF ALL THE THINGS THAT WAS DISCUSSED.
8 AND I GUESS MY QUESTION IS -- THAT TYPE OF A
9 PRESENTATION IS VERY DAMAGING TO THE INSTITUTE. I THINK
10 THAT IT GIVES YOU A POSSIBLE VIEWPOINT THAT I DON'T
11 BELIEVE IS TRUE, BUT I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT TONIGHT.
12 COUNCILMAN WILSON: MR. ROBERTS, COULD YOU
13 SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS YOUR DEVELOPMENT PLANS AND WHETHER OR
14 NOT THEY ARE WITHIN 400 YARDS OF THE LAMBING PENS?
15 MR. ROBERTS: ANYTHING ELSE THAT -- WELL, WE'LL JUST
16 HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE LIST, I GUESS.
17 FIRST OF ALL, WE STARTED OUR BUILDING PLANS
18 BACK IN 1987. WE DID HAVE THE LAND LEASED FROM THE BUREAU
19 OF LAND MANAGEMENT. WE FINALLY NEGOTIATED A PURCHASE OF
20 THE LAND UNDER A PATENT BASIS, WHICH TOOK PLACE IN JANUARY
21 OF 1989. AND, OF COURSE, WHEN THAT HAPPENED, WE BECAME
22 UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE COUNTY OF RIVERSIDE AND
23 BEGAN THE APPLICATION PROCESS.
24 AND OUR ARCHITECTURAL FIRM WAS WORKING WITH THE
25 COUNTY LONG BEFORE WE MET MR. HAYHOE. AS FAR AS THE
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112
1 DESIGN OF THE BUILDINGS AND EVERYTHING ELSE, AND THE
2 PLACEMENT, TWO THINGS: IN 1987, ONCE AGAIN, WE STARTED
3 WITH AN IDEA. AND THE IDEA WAS TO BUILD A RESEARCH
4 FACILITY, THE IDEA WAS TO BUILD A LIVING QUARTERS FOR FOUR
5 TO SIX BIOLOGISTS. WE HAD AN IDEA OF AN EDUCATIONAL
6 MUSEUM, NOT OPEN TO THE PUBLIC ON A DAILY BASIS, BUT
7 SOMETHING WHERE FIELD CLASSES COULD COME AND SEE THE
8 INSIDE OF THE MUSEUM THAT WOULD HAVE THINGS THAT LEND
9 ITSELF TO THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
10 IN ABOUT PROBABLY THE MIDDLE OF '87, PERHAPS
11 THE END OF '87, THE BOARD DECIDED THAT ESSENTIALLY, IT
12 COULDN'T AFFORD TO DO ALL THESE THINGS, AND WE REALLY
13 BEGAN TO LOOK AT SOME OF OUR PURPOSE OF BEING THERE. AND
14 OUR ARCHITECTURAL FIRMS CONCENTRATED ON ONLY TWO THINGS,
15 AND THAT WAS THE CONSTRUCTION OF A RESEARCH FACILITY AND A
16 2800-SQUARE-FOOT LIVING QUARTERS. THAT IS THE TOTAL PLAN.
17 THE PLAN THAT WENT BEFORE THE COUNTY WAS THE
18 ONE THAT WE HAD FROM PRIOR YEARS. THE COUNTY FELT THAT
19 THE MUSEUM SHOULD NOT BE THERE AND THE HELIPAD SHOULD NOT
20 BE THERE. AND THEY BASICALLY REMOVED IT, AND THAT WAS
21 FINE WITH US.
22 AS FAR AS THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS, SEVERAL
23 YEARS, LIKE I SAY, BEFORE HAYHOE APPEARED ON THE SCENE, WE
24 MADE A DECISION THAT SOMETIMES OUR IDEAS GET AHEAD OF WHAT
25 WE CAN REALLY DO. AND THE STAFF AND THE BOARD, ON A
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113
1 NUMBER OF OCCASIONS, DISCUSSED OUR MISSION. AND THAT'S
2 WHY WE SPENT $110,000 ON ARCHITECTURAL FEES TO BUILD TWO
3 THINGS: A 6800-SQUARE-FOOT RESEARCH LAB AND A LIVING
4 QUARTERS. AND THAT WAS IT.
5 COUNCILMAN WILSON: COULD I ASK ONE OTHER QUESTION?
6 IF WE WERE TO IMPOSE A BUFFER ZONE, WOULD YOU GIVE US
7 ASSURANCES THAT THE INSTITUTE WOULD ALSO ADHERE TO THAT
8 BUFFER ZONE IN ANY DEVELOPMENT THEY DO?
9 MR. ROBERTS: WE CAN GIVE YOU ASSURANCES HOWEVER YOU
10 WANT THEM. I THINK THE KEY THING -- AND, ONCE AGAIN,
11 THERE WAS A LOT OF DECISION -MAKING PROCESS THAT WENT INTO
12 THIS.
13 THE INSTITUTE CONTROLS ITSELF. RIGHT NOW WE
14 HAVE FOUR BIOLOGISTS WHO WORK THERE, AND IT IS A VERY
15 CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT. I'M NOT SURE, FOR THOSE OF YOU
16 THAT HAVE BEEN THERE, BUT WE DON'T HAVE PEOPLE JUST
17 RUNNING ALL OVER THE PLACE. IT IS VERY CONTROLLED.
18 AND THE PLACEMENTS OF THE BUILDINGS TOOK INTO
19 CONSIDERATION AS FAR AS ENTRANCES AND EXITS AND EVERYTHING
20 ELSE. AND, BASICALLY, THAT DESIGN WAS PLANNED AROUND ALL
21 THE FACTORS THAT WE DID CONSIDER. SO AS FAR AS STAYING
22 WHATEVER YARDAGE AWAY, IF IT'S 400 YARDS, SURE, WE COULD
23 AGREE TO IT AND THAT COULD BE DONE.
24 I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT I HOPE PEOPLE
25 RECOGNIZE TONIGHT THAT A 400-YARD BUFFER IS LESS THAN
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114
9 1 20 PERCENT OF THE CITY E.I.R.'S BIOLOGICAL CONSULTANT'S
2 RECOMMENDATION. AND THAT BASIC RECOMMENDATION WAS
3 SUPPORTED BY A MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPONDED TO THE
4 QUESTIONNAIRE.
5 SO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TONIGHT IS THE
6 POSSIBLE APPROVAL OF A PROJECT WITH A BUFFER AREA THAT'S
7 SUPPORTED BY A MINORITY OF THE PEOPLE THAT RESPONDED TO
8 THE QUESTIONNAIRE.
9 COUNCILMAN WILSON: LET ME RESTATE MY QUESTION.
10 MR. ROBERTS: YES.
11 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I DIDN'T SPECIFY THE SIZE OF THE
12 BUFFER. I JUST ASKED WHETHER YOU WOULD AGREE TO LIVE WITH
13 WHATEVER SIZE BUFFER WE COME UP WITH. IF IT'S THE
14 CONSULTANT'S RECOMMENDATION OF 600 TO 1125 YARDS, WOULD
15 YOU KEEP YOUR DEVELOPMENT THAT FAR AWAY FROM THE LAMBING
16 PENS?
17 MR. ROBERTS: WE CAN DO THAT.
18 COUNCILMAN CRITES: ROY, LET ME ASK A DIFFERENT KIND
19 OF QUESTION.
20 MR. ROBERTS: I MEAN I -- DIFFICULT TO RESPOND TO.
21 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THE BIOLOGICAL CONSULTANT DOESN'T
22 DRAW A STRAIGHT LINE AROUND THE LAMBING PEN. CORRECTLY OR
23 NOT, THE CONSULTANT SUGGESTS THAT THE SIDES OF THE PEN IN
24 WHICH LAMBING OCCURS ARE MORE SENSITIVE THAN SIDES OF THE
25 PEN IN WHICH LAMBING DOES NOT OCCUR.
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115
1 SO PERHAPS THE QUESTION WOULD BE, IS THAT GIVEN
2 THAT VARIOUS POINTS ON A COMPASS ARE EITHER MORE OR LESS
3 SENSITIVE, WOULD THE INSTITUTE THEN BE WILLING TO LIVE
4 WITH THOSE KINDS OF RECOMMENDATIONS --
5 MR. ROBERTS: YES.
6 COUNCILMAN CRITES: -- THAT ARE APPROPRIATE FOR THE
7 SIDES OF THE PENS ON WHICH THEY ARE LOCATED?
8 MR. ROBERTS: YES. COUNCILMEMBER CRITES HIT THE
9 BUTTON.
10 THE OTHER SIDE, THE NORTHEAST SLOPE, IS WHERE
11 THE LAMBING ACTIVITY TAKES PLACE, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE
12 REALLY CONCERNED WITH. THEY DO NOT LAMB ON THE OTHER SIDE
13 OF THE MOUNTAIN, WHICH IS WHERE OUR FACILITY. IS LOOKING AT
14 BEING LOCATED.
15 COUNCILMAN CRITES: BUT IF THERE IS A RECOMMENDATION
16 FOR A BUFFER --
17 MR. ROBERTS: I THINK WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THE
18 GOALS OF THE TWO PARTIES IS DIFFERENT TONIGHT. OUR GOAL
19 IS SIMPLY TO RUN A RESEARCH OPERATION. WE'D LIKE TO
20 PRESERVE BIGHORN SHEEP FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS, AND THAT'S
21 BASICALLY OUR GOAL. THAT'S IT.
22 THE GOAL OF THE DEVELOPER IS TO MAKE MONEY, AND
23 THAT'S FINE. THAT'S WHAT HE'S THERE FOR. HE WANTS TO
24 BUILD THE TYPE OF PROJECT HE WANTS TO, BUT IT'S AN
25 ECONOMIC DECISION.
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116
10 1 YOUR DECISION TONIGHT, AND I THINK IT'S
2 CERTAINLY BEEN TALKED ABOUT, WILL BE SUBJECTIVE TO A
3 DEGREE. THERE CERTAINLY SEEMS TO BE A DIFFERENCE THAT'S
4 BEEN TALKED ABOUT AS FAR AS OPINIONS OF VARIOUS EXPERTS.
5 WE HAVE U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SUPPORTING THE BUFFER THAT
6 IS RECOMMENDED BY THE E.I.R.'S BIOLOGICAL CONSULTANTS, AND
7 NOW WE HAVE THE FISH AND GAME AT THE. OTHER END.
8 AND I GUESS IT'S A QUESTION NOW, DO YOU WANT TO
9 LOOK AT THE MAJORITY OF THE RESPONDENTS OR DO YOU WANT TO
10 LOOK AT THE MINORITY?
11 IT'S BEEN SAID ALSO THAT BECAUSE IT'S A
12 SUBJECTIVE DECISION, WHATEVER DECISION YOU MAKE IS GOING
13 TO BE WRONG. AND IF YOU RECOMMEND SOMETHING THAT IS
14 BASICALLY PRO DEVELOPMENT, YOU'LL BE LABELED PRO
15 DEVELOPMENT, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO THINK.
16 AND THE SAME THING IF YOU FALL ON THE SIDE OF THE
17 ENVIRONMENT.
18 AND, UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S PROBABLY TRUE, BECAUSE
19 THAT WILL BE A SUBJECTIVE DECISION THAT'S MADE, WHETHER
20 IT'S TONIGHT OR TWO WEEKS FROM TONIGHT OR WHATEVER THE
21 TIME MAY BE. AND WE WOULD SIMPLY HOPE THAT, ONCE AGAIN,
22 THAT --
23 WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT THE BIOLOGY. AND WE
24 DO HAVE EXPERT OPINIONS, AND THEY HAVE RESPONDED TO A
25 QUESTIONNAIRE. AND THE MAJORITY OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE
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LO 1 RESPONDED SUPPORT YOUR OWN CITY'S E.I.R. BIOLOGICAL
2 CONSULTANT'S RECOMMENDATION. AND THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD
3 LIKE YOU TO DO, IS GO ALONG WITH THAT PARTICULAR
4 RECOMMENDATION.
5 I HAVE ONE THING TO HAND OUT, AND THEN I'M
6 GOING TO ASK MRS. RHEO LAWMAN TO SPEAK NEXT. AND I,'LL
7 JUST GIVE THIS TO THE COUNCIL, IF I MAY.
8 RHEO LAWMAN HAS BEEN A RESIDENT OF THIS CITY
9 SINCE 1953. SHE'S A FORMER PUBLISHER OF PALM DESERT POST
10 MAGAZINE -- NEWSPAPER. SHE GOT INTERESTED IN WILDLIFE
11 BECAUSE SHE HAS FIVE BROTHERS, AND THEY GAVE HER NO
12 CHOICE.
13 SHE'S ALSO A LIFE MEMBER OF THE BIGHORN
14 INSTITUTE AND THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY AND HAS BEEN VERY
15 ACTIVE IN GATHERING PETITIONS TO SUPPORT THE BIGHORN
16 INSTITUTTE AND THE BUFFER THAT YOU SEE UP ON THE WALL.
17 AND WITH THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK RHEO TO COME
18 FORWARD. AND I BELIEVE WE'VE HAD ALL OUR PEOPLE FILL OUT
19 THE LITTLE BLUE CARDS AND TURN THEM IN.
20 MS. LAWMAN: MY NAME IS RHEO LAWMAN, 73-816 DE ANZA
21 WAY.
22 MR. MAYOR AND CITY COUNCIL.
23 MUCH TO MY AMAZEMENT, WE GOT THE PETITION
24 READY, AND PEOPLE JUST POURED OUT TO SIGN IT. THE
25 PETITION INCLUDES THE BUFFER ZONE AND -- OF 600 YARDS OUT
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10 1 TO 1,125 YARDS. WE HAVE TURNED IN -- WE TURNED IN TO THE
2 CITY CLERK, TODAY, THE MAJORITY OF OUR PETITIONS, AND
3 THERE WERE 2,587. AND SINCE THEN, WE HAVE GOTTEN A FEW IN
4 THIS EVENING. AND I'LL GIVE YOU THESE NOW.
5 I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THIS EVENING THAT ELENA
6 VASQUEZ HAD EMERGENCY SURGERY AND ASKED THAT I CONVEY TO
7 THE COUNCIL HER SINCERE CONCERN AND REAL NEED FOR AN
8 UNDISTURBED BUFFER NEXT TO THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
9 I HAVE DONE A BIT OF RESEARCH ON GOLF COURSES,
10 AND I FOUND THAT THERE ARE APPROXIMATELY 100 GOLF COURSES
11 HERE, 1.6 GOLF COURSES FOR EVERY SQUARE MILE IN THIS AREA.
12 THIS IS THE MOST DENSELY CONCENTRATED GOLF COURSE AREA IN
13 THE WORLD.
14 PACIFIC SOUTHWEST BIOLOGICAL SERVICES ARE
15 EXTREMELY WELL -QUALIFIED TO MAKE THE RECOMMENDATION FOR
16 THE UNDISTURBED BUFFER, NOT ANOTHER GOLF COURSE. WE ARE
17 FOR GOOD DEVELOPMENT, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF
18 LONG-ESTABLISHED PLACES, SUCH AS THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE,
19 BEING -- HAVING TO MOVE OUT. I AM SURE MR. HAYHOE WAS
20 AWARE OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE WHEN HE PURCHASED HIS
21 PROPERTY.
22 THIS PARTICULAR SITE WHERE THE INSTITUTE IS, IS
23 UNIQUE. THE LAY OF THE LAND AND THE MOUNTAINSIDE AREA
24 CANNOT BE DUPLICATED. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. REVENUE FROM
25 A FEW ADDITIONAL HOMES ADDED TO THE ALTA MIRA COULD
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10 1 COMPENSATE FOR THE COST OF THE BUFFER.
2 THE SUCCESS OF THE INSTITUTE IS WELL
3 DOCUMENTED. ANY INTERRUPTION COULD BE DISASTROUS, JUST AS
4 THE BIGHORN ARE BEING BROUGHT BACK FROM THE BRINK OF
5 EXTINCTINON.
6 THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS DECISION FOR YOU, OUR
7 COUNCIL, TO MAKE, AND WHAT WILL BE YOUR LEGACY. I DO HOPE
8 THAT YOU WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS THE COUNCIL THAT SAVED
9 THE BIGHORN AND THE PRESERVATION OF OUR NATURAL HISTORY IN
10 OUR BEAUTIFUL CITY OF PALM DESERT.
11 AND I'D LIKE TO GIVE YOU THESE PETITIONS.
12 MAYOR SNYDER: CITY CLERK.
13 COUNCILMAN WILSON: ARE THESE IN ADDITION TO THE ONES
14 WE HAVE RECEIVED EARLIER?
15 MS. LAWMAN: YES.
16 COUNCILMAN WILSON: THANK YOU.
17 MS. LAWMAN: THESE ARE IN ADDITION. THEY'RE NOT
18 FILLED, BUT THEY'RE PARTIALLY FILLED.
19 MR. ROBERTS: I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY WE'RE UP TO NOW,
20 BUT IT'S -- THE NUMBER SHE'S TALKING ABOUT IS CERTAINLY
21 SIGNIFICANT.
22 THE NEXT SPEAKER -- IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO
23 JUST PLAIN RUN AN INTRODUCTION OF JIM DE FORGE, OUR
24 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WHO IS GOING TO BE GIVING A SLIDE
25 PRESENTATION.
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120
1 ONCE AGAIN, MR. ZEILENGA HAS GIVEN HIS
2 ATTORNEY'S SPIN ON MR. DE FORGE TO YOU. THERE IS NO WAY,
3 TONIGHT, THAT WE COULD POSSIBLY RESPOND TO THOSE TYPE OF
4 ATTACKS. WE DON'T HAVE THE TIME, WE HAVEN'T HAD THE
5 PREPARATION THAT HE HAD, WE ONLY HAD THE LIST OF
6 QUESTIONS. IT BOTHERS ME.
7 JIM DE FORGE IS ONE OF THOSE WHO HAS A SINGLE
8 PURPOSE IN LIFE, PERHAPS. WE'VE SEEN PEOPLE LIKE THIS,
9 THAT HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF DRIVE, EXTREMELY FOCUSED, AND
10 THEY ALSO ACCOMPLISH THINGS. THEY DON'T RUN THINGS BY
11 COMMITTEE, THEY DO ACCOMPLISH THINGS. AND PEOPLE LIKE
12 THAT ARE QUITE OFTEN LOVED OR HATED BECAUSE, WHILE THEY'RE
13 MOVING, OTHER PEOPLE ARE STANDING STILL, QUITE OFTEN.
14 THE SUCCESS OF THE INSTITUTE HASN'T BEEN
15 QUESTIONED BY ANYBODY. NO ONE HAS RAISED THAT AS AN
16 ISSUE. AND YET, WHEN I HEAR THESE COMMENTS MADE TONIGHT,
17 TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT, OUT OF HUNDREDS OF PAGES OF
18 DEPOSITION, WHATEVER, TO GIVE ONE'S VIEWPOINT, I FIND IT A
19 LITTLE DISTRESSING AROUND THE EDGES, TO PUT IT MILDLY.
20 I'D LIKE TO INVITE JIM UP HERE NOW AND,
21 HOPEFULLY, HE'LL BE ALLOWED TO GIVE A SLIDE PRESENTATION
22 THAT WILL LAST TEN OR 12 MINUTES TO TELL YOU HOW THE
23 INSTITUTE OPERATES, BECAUSE AT THE LAST PLANNING
24 COMMISSION MEETING WE HAD A PLANNING COMMISSIONER SAY THAT
25 HE DIDN'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST IDEA WHAT WE DO. SO MAYBE
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1 NOW IS THE TIME DO THAT.
2 I'D LIKE TO PRESENT MR. DE FORGE AT THIS TIME.
3 THANK YOU.
4 MR. DE FORGE: GOOD EVENING.
5 MR. MAYOR, COUNCIL MEMBERS.
6 I'M AWFUL GLAD TO BE HERE TONIGHT AND ACTUALLY
7 GET IT TO THE COUNCIL LEVEL.
8 WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO IS, WE'RE GOING TO SHOW YOU
9 A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE INSTITUTE IF WE COULD, AND OUR
10 OPERATION, AND THEN HAVE SOME OTHER BIOLOGISTS COME UP
11 HERE AND GIVE A LITTLE BIT OF PRESENTATION TO YOU, AND
12 THEN COME BACK AND, IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR SUCH THAT
13 COUNCIL WOULD LIKE TO ASK US, THEN HOPEFULLY, WE'LL BE
14 ABLE TO ADDRESS THEM.
15 WOULD YOU LIKE TO BREAK FOR A FEW MINUTES WHILE
16 WE SET UP?
17 AUDIENCE: NO.
18 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.)
19 MAYOR SNYDER: MR. DE FORGE.
20 MR. DE FORGE: YES.
21 MAYOR SNYDER: ONE TECHNICAL PROBLEM WE HAVE. AS YOU
22 KNOW, THIS IS PART OF THE RECORDED PRESENTATION. IF,
23 INDEED, WE LOOK AT THESE SLIDES, I'M SORRY TO TELL YOU,
24 BUT WE'LL HAVE TO TAKE CUSTODY OF THEM.
25 MR. DE FORGE: IS THAT RIGHT?
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1 MAYOR SNYDER: THAT'S RIGHT. SO --
2 MR. GEOCARIS: WAIT A MINUTE. MR. MAYOR --
3 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: WE'VE GOT TO MAKE THEM PART
4 OF THE RECORD.
5 MR. GEOCARIS: YEAH. TYPICALLY, I -- IN FACT, I JUST
6 WAS IN SAN FRANCISCO AND YOU'LL BE SURPRISED TO HEAR I'M
7 REPRESENTING THE PLAINTIFF. AND WE HAVE EXHIBITS -- WE
8 MADE COLOR PHOTOS OF ALL THE SLIDES.
9 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: EXCELLENT. THAT WILL DO IT.
10 MR. GEOCARIS: WILL THAT WORK?
11 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: YES, IT WILL.
12 MR. GEOCARIS: I'M SURE WE CAN GET A PHOTOGRAPHIC
13 SERVICE TO DO THAT IN THE NEXT DAY OR TWO.
14 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: THANK YOU.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: I JUST DON'T WANT TO -- I'M TRYING TO
16 MAKE SURE THAT WHATEVER WE DO HERE IS LEGAL AND EVERYBODY
17 UNDERSTANDS WHAT WE'RE DOING.
18 MR. GEOCARIS: I UNDERSTAND. WE'LL MAKE IT A GROUP
19 EXHIBIT.
20 MAYOR SNYDER: AND I DON'T MEAN TO CREATE A PROBLEM,
21 BUT MY ATTORNEY TOLD ME THAT I SHOULD WARN YOU OF THIS
22 SITUATION, SO I HAVE. AND IF WE CAN GET A COPY OF THEM,
23 THAT'S SATISFACTORY. BUT, BY LAW, I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT
24 WE WILL TAKE CUSTODY OF THE SLIDES.
25 MR. GEOCARIS: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. MAYOR.
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EXHIBIT "A"
123
1 MR. DE FORGE: THANK YOU, MR. MAYOR.
2 I THINK WE'VE ALL BEEN A PART OF BEING A LITTLE
3 BIT OF A PROBLEM, SO YOU CAN TAKE YOUR SHARE TOO.
4 MAYOR SNYDER: ALL RIGHT.
5 MR. DE FORGE: OKAY. WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO IS SHOW YOU
6 OUR CROWN JEWEL OF THE DESERT, AND THAT'S, OBVIOUSLY, THE
7 BIGHORN HIMSELF.
8 THE ANIMAL HAS GOTTEN ITS NAME FROM ITS MASSIVE
9 HORNS. IT'S THE OLDEST -- ONE OF THE OLDEST RESIDENTS WE
10 HAVE HERE IN THIS VALLEY, AND THEY'VE ROAMED HERE FOR
11 THOUSANDS OF YEARS, TO SAY THE LEAST.
12 I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU A LITTLE NATURAL HISTORY
13 OF THESE ANIMALS SO YOU BETTER UNDERSTAND WHAT THE
14 INSTITUTE IS ALL ABOUT AND WHY THERE EVEN IS A BIGHORN
15 INSTITUTE OR A NEED FOR SUCH.
16 THE ANIMALS ARE HIGHLY SOCIABLE, WHICH USE THE
17 SAME RANGE YEAR AFTER YEAR. USUALLY, YOUNG ANIMALS, SUCH
18 AS LAMBS OR SO, FOLLOW THE MOVEMENTS THE FIRST YEAR OR SO
19 OF THEIR LIFE FROM THEIR PARENTS OR A FEMALE BAND, SUCH AS
20 YOU SEE HERE, TO PICK UP IMPORTANT HOME RANGE. IF THIS
21 HOME RANGE, FOR SOME REASON, IS LOST DUE TO INROADS INTO
22 THE ANIMAL'S HABITAT AT TIMES OR THEY STOP USING A PORTION
23 OF THE RANGE, THAT KNOWLEDGE MAY NOT BE CARRIED ON FOR
24 GENERATIONS TO COME.
25 FOR WHATEVER REASON, AND THEY HAVE BEEN STATED,
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12 1 BUT BIGHORN SHEEP IN CALIFORNIA AND IN THE UNITED STATES
2 HAS DECLINED IN -- IN NORTH AMERICA, I SHOULD SAY --
3 DRAMATICALLY IN THE LAST 150 OR SO YEARS. IT WAS EXPECTED
4 THAT THERE WAS A MILLION AND A HALF TO TWO MILLION. TODAY
5 WE HAVE JUST AROUND 40,000 LEFT.
6 OFTEN, THESE RANGES, SUCH AS YOU SEE HERE IN
7 THE COSO RANGE, WERE HISTORIC RANGE IN RECENT TIMES AND
8 THEN, FOR WHATEVER REASON, THE ANIMALS HAVE DISAPPEARED.
9 SINCE WORLD WAR II, WE'VE LOST SHEEP OUT OF SUCH RANGES IN
10 CALIFORNIA. OUT OF 16 RANGES, TO BE EXACT.
11 WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PICTURE OF SHEEP
12 DISTRIBUTION IN CALIFORNIA -- THIS WAS PUT TOGETHER BY THE
13 DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME. THE RED SPOTS ARE THE
14 NELSON'S BIGHORN, WHICH IS THE MOST PREDOMINANT DESERT
15 SHEEP THAT EXISTS. THE GREEN AREAS HERE, DOWN IN THE
16 LOWER END OF THE SLIDE, ARE THE THE CREMNOBATES.
17 THE CREMNOBATES ARE A GROUP OF ANIMALS, THE
18 PENINSULAR BIGHORN, THAT HAVE BEEN EXPERIENCING THE
19 MAJORITY OF -- SOME MAJOR DECLINE AND PROBLEMS IN THE LAST
20 FEW YEARS.
21 THE SMALL CIRCLE UP AT THE TOP IS THE SAN
22 JACINTOS. THAT RANGE, IN 1979, IT WAS ESTIMATED THERE WAS
23 300 BIGHORN IN THE SAN JACINTOS. THAT'S RIGHT NEXT TO
24 PALM SPRINGS. TODAY WE ESTIMATE, OR IT'S ESTIMATED
25 THERE'S AROUND 15 LEFT.
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12 1 THIS NEXT BIGGER AREA HERE IS THE SANTA ROSAS.
2 AND, AGAIN, IN '79 IT WAS ESTIMATED THERE WERE 500, AND
3 TODAY THE ESTIMATE IS DOWN TO 120. WHAT WE HAVE,
4 OBVIOUSLY, IS A DECLINE IN THE SUBSPECIES STATUS FROM
5 AROUND 1171 IN 1979 DOWN TO 380.
6 THUS, IT'S BEEN THE POINT OF CONCERN OR MAIN
7 FOCUS OF THE CONCERN TO BOTH THIS PROJECT AND WITH STATE
8 AND FEDERAL AGENCIES IN TERMS OF WHERE THIS ANIMAL IS
9 GOING AND WHAT'S GOING TO BE DONE ABOUT IT.
10 WE ACTUALLY CAME HERE IN THE NORTH END OF THE
11 SANTA ROSAS, AND THE PALM DESERT/RANCHO MIRAGE AREA IS THE
12 MAIN FOCUS OF OUR STUDY AREA, BECAUSE IN 1977 -- FROM 1977
13 TO '79 OR SO, THE DEPARTMENT REALIZED THAT THERE WAS A
14 HIGH LAMB MORTALITY OR AT LEAST LAMBS WERE NOT MAKING IT
15 TO YEARLING AGE.
16 WE CAME HERE TO LOOK INTO THAT CAUSE. THE
17 CAUSE, AT THAT TIME, WAS UNKNOWN. I HEARD THAT TURNER
18 MADE REFERENCE TO THE FACT THAT HE ISOLATED OR KNEW OF THE
19 DISEASE OR WAS THE ONE THAT REPORTED IT. THAT'S WAS -- IS
20 NEWS TO EVERYBODY. THE ANIMAL WAS HERE FOR A NUMBER OF
21 YEARS, AND WITH THE LAMB SITUATION THAT WAS TAKING PLACE,
22 IT, AGAIN, STARTED IN '77 AND WAS RECORDED QUITE WELL BY
23 THE DEPARTMENT.
24 WE CAME IN IN 1981 TO ACTUALLY FOCUS ON THE
25 PROBLEM AND TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND, ACTUALLY, WHAT MIGHT BE
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12 1 TAKING PLACE. AGAIN, THESE ARE THE MOUNTAINOUS AREAS JUST
2 BEHIND RANCHO MIRAGE/PALM DESERT, AS YOU SEE.
3 WHAT WE FOUND THAT FIRST YEAR, IN 1981, WE
4 SPENT OVER 300 DAYS IN THE FIELD THAT YEAR. AND THAT'S
5 LONG HOURS, A LOT OF HIKING, WEARING OUT BOOTS, TO SAY THE
6 LEAST. WHAT WE COME TO REALIZE WAS THAT THERE WAS A
7 NUMBER OF LAMBS THAT WERE BORN, BUT THIS LAMB WAS THE ONLY
8 ONE THAT MADE IT THROUGH THAT 1981 LAMB CROP. THE CAUSE
9 OF THAT, AGAIN, WAS -- WE WERE DOCUMENTING THAT THE
10 ANIMALS WERE EXPERIENCING PNEUMONIA.
11 WHAT WE OFTEN SAW ON THE RANGE WAS THE ANIMALS
12 BECAME -- THE ANIMALS WERE BORN AND QUITE ACTIVE, BUT AT
13 AROUND TWO TO FOUR MONTHS OF AGE WE SAW THAT OFTEN WE
14 WOULD FIND THESE ANIMALS IN A VERY MORIBUND OR WEAKENED
15 CONDITION, WHERE THEY WOULD OFTEN HIDE UP OR BED UP IN
16 REAL ROUGH TERRAIN, SUCH AS YOU MIGHT SEE HERE.
17 IT MIGHT AND OFTEN WAS ASSOCIATED WITH EWES, OR
18 ITS MOTHER VOCALIZING TO IT, TRYING TO GET IT AWAY FROM
19 THESE AREAS, AT LEAST TRYING TO GET IT OUT.
20 THE END RESULT MIGHT BE, IF WE WERE LUCKY, WAS
21 TO FIND THE CARCASS OF THIS ANIMAL BEFORE IT WAS OF NO
22 MEDICAL VALUE. OFTEN, THIS WAS TAKING PLACE -- THESE
23 MORTALITIES WERE TAKING PLACE DURING THE HEAT PERIOD OF
24 THE YEAR, JUNE, JULY MONTHS AND SUCH. AND SO IF AN ANIMAL
25 THIS SMALL, A CARCASS LAID OUT IN THE DESERT VERY LONG, A
7
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12 1 FEW HOURS OR SO, IT'S OF VERY LITTLE VALUE.
2 SO WITH THIS IN MIND, WE AGAIN APPROACHED THE
3 DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME FROM OUR FIELD STUDIES AND
4 PRESENTED A PROGRAM OF CAPTURING SOME ADULT ANIMALS AND,
5 FROM THAT, TRYING TO LEARN WHAT MIGHT BE MEDICALLY
6 INVOLVED IN THESE POPULATION DECLINES.
7 WE CAUGHT 13 ANIMALS IN '81, AND FROM THOSE
8 ANIMALS, WE FOUND THAT THEY HAD EXPOSURE TITERS TO FOUR
9 MAJOR VIRUSES. THE EFFECTS THAT THESE VIRUSES MIGHT HAVE
10 ON THE BIGHORN WERE OBVIOUSLY UNKNOWN TO ANY GREAT DEGREE
11 AT THE TIME, BUT IT WAS AN INTERESTING -- IT WAS
12 INTERESTING DATA, TO SAY THE LEAST.
13 WE FOUND EXPOSURE TO PARAINFLUENZA III, BLUE
14 TONGUE, EPIZOTIC HEMORRHAGIC DISEASE, AND CONTAGIOUS
15 ECTHEMA. THESE ARE ALL DISEASES THAT OFTEN CAN BE AND
16 HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH LIVESTOCK, BUT THE EFFECTS THAT
17 THEY MIGHT HAVE ON BIGHORN SHEEP WAS PRETTY MUCH
18 UNDOCUMENTED.
19 AT ABOUT THE SAME TIME OF OUR FIRING UP OF OUR
20 PROJECT HERE A FEW YEARS LATER OR SO, WE WERE FORTUNATE TO
21 GO INTO A LEASE AGREEMENT WITH THE BUREAU OF LAND
22 MANAGEMENT. IT'S THIS AREA AS YOU SEE HERE, OFF OF
23 HIGHWAY 74. AND ACTUALLY, YOU CAN CALL IT -- WE HAVE BEEN
24 THE GATEWAY TO PALM DESERT, THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE. THIS
25 IS AS YOU ENTER THE CITY. AND THESE HILLS WERE THE HILLS
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13 1 THAT STRUCK OUR ATTENTION AND INTEREST IN LOOKING FOR A
2 POSSIBLE LOCATION TO SUCCESSFULLY RAISE ANIMALS IN A
3 CAPTIVE STATE.
4 WE HAVE EXPERT WITNESS HERE TO DEAL WITH ZOO
5 SITUATIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. WE KNOW THAT SHEEP CAN
6 BE BORN IN ZOO CONFINEMENTS AND SUCH, BUT OUR GOAL AND
7 PURPOSE HERE WAS TO NOT CREATE AN HABITUATED SITUATION OF
8 HIGH IMPACT ON THE ANIMALS OR ANYTHING ELSE, BUT TO
9 HOPEFULLY HAVE AN ANIMAL THAT WAS RELEASEABLE INTO THE
10 WILD WITH SOME DEGREE OF SUCCESS. THIS HAD NOT BEEN
11 DEMONSTRATED BEFORE BY ANY ORGANIZATION OR ZOO, AND IT WAS
12 KIND OF A FIRST ATTEMPT, TO SAY THE LEAST.
13 WE STARTED BRINGING IN SICK AND DYING LAMBS.
14 AGAIN, WE WERE -- WE WERE DOCUMENTING AND WITNESSING THE
15 FACT THAT HIGH LAMB MORTALITY WAS TAKING PLACE. MOST OF
16 THEM SEEMED TO BE DYING BETWEEN TWO AND FOUR MONTHS OF
17 AGE.
18 WE WENT UP WITH AN EXPERIMENTAL NET GUN AND
19 PERMISSION FROM THE DEPARTMENT, BEGAN BRINGING IN SOME OF
20 THESE LITTLE LAMBS. WITH THEM IN HAND, WE WERE ABLE TO
21 STABILIZE THEM, TO SAY THE LEAST, WAS OUR FIRST PRIORITY
22 AND LEARN AS MUCH AS WE COULD FROM THEM.
23 THIS OFTEN RESULTED IN SAMPLING OF THE ANIMAL
24 ON A WEEKLY OR TEN-DAY BASIS AND RADIOGRAPHS OR X-RAYING
25 THE ANIMAL'S LUNGS AND SEEING THE PROGRESS OF OUR EFFORTS
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13 1 AS WELL AS THE EFFECTS OR THE PROCESS OF THE DISEASE AS IT
2 WAS AFFECTING THE ANIMALS.
3 EACH CASE IS DIFFERENT. THE ANIMAL -- WE HAD
4 BROUGHT IN 36 SICK AND DYING BIGHORNS. UNTIL THIS
5 OPERATION, THE FAMOUS BIOLOGIST FROM CALIFORNIA, HE'S NOW
6 RETIRED, DICK WEAVER, OFTEN SAID A SICK BIGHORN WAS A DEAD
7 BIGHORN. AND THE INSTITUTE WAS THE FIRST TO REALLY PROVE
8 HIM WRONG. AND WE WERE SUCCESSFUL IN TURNING 32 OF THOSE
9 36 ANIMALS AROUND.
10 IT TAKES A LOT OF BLOOD, SWEAT, AND TEARS IN
11 TERMS OF HARD WORK, BUT WE HAD AS MUCH AS SEVEN
12 BIOLOGISTS, AT TIMES, WORKING 70 HOURS A WEEK TO SEE WHAT
13 WE COULD LEARN ABOUT THESE ANIMALS AND, HOPEFULLY, HAVE
14 SOME POSITIVE RESULTS TO SHOW FOR THAT.
15 WITH THESE PEN FACILITIES, IT ALLOWED US TO
16 BRING IN ALL THESE SICK LAMBS, SUCH AS YOU SEE HERE. THEY
17 WERE PUT IN DIFFERENT QUARANTINE PENS AND TREATED AS A
18 GROUP. THE FOCUS OF OUR LEARNING HAS BEEN GREATLY DUE TO
19 THIS ABILITY TO BRING IN THESE SICK ANIMALS.
20 AS A RESULT OF HAVING THEM, WE HAVE ISOLATED A
21 NUMBER OF VIRUSES. WE'VE HAD TREMENDOUS SUCCESS WITH
22 THAT. AND WE ALSO ISOLATED A NEW STRAIN OF PARAINFLUENZA
23 III. IT'S THE FIRST TIME A NEW STRAIN HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED
24 IN THE BOVINE SPECIES. IT'S ONE THAT WE THINK IS PLAYING
25 A BIG PART, TO SOME DEGREE, IN THE POPULATION MORTALITY
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130
13 1 RATE THAT IS OCCURRING IN THE SANTA ROSAS.
2 WHAT WE ACTUALLY HAVE GOING OR WHAT WE HAVE
3 BEEN SEEING FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, AND IT CONTINUES, IS WE
4 ARE HAVING AROUND 90 PERCENT OF THE LAMBS BORN IN THE WILD
5 DIE. IT'S A BIG PART OF WHY THE CRASH HAS OCCURRED WITHIN
6 THIS POPULATION, BOTH IN THE SANTA ROSAS AND IS
7 INFLUENCING PART OF THE PROBLEM OCCURRING THROUGHOUT THE
8 CREMNOBATES RANGE, IT APPEARS.
9 WHAT WE HAVE FOUND TO DATE IS THAT THESE
10 ANIMALS ARE GETTING SICK AT AROUND TWO MONTHS OF AGE, TWO
11 TO THREE MONTHS, MOST OF THEM NOT MAKING IT, AS I SAID,
12 BEYOND FOUR MONTHS. WHAT WE FEEL IS GOING ON IS, THESE
13 LITTLE LAMBS GET THE MOTHER'S COLOSTRUM, THE FIRST MILK.
14 IT'S THE FIRST -- IT'S THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET ANTIBODY
15 PROTECTION OUT OF THAT COLOSTRUM.
16 AS A RESULT, THESE ANIMALS ARE ON THE MOTHER'S
17 PARENTAL IMMUNE SYSTEM FOR THE FIRST 30 OR 80 DAYS, IS THE
18 FEELING, AND THEN AS THAT IMMUNE RESPONSE -- PARENTAL
19 IMMUNE SYSTEM DROPS, THE ANIMAL HAS TO START FIRING UP ITS
20 OWN SYSTEM. FOR SOME REASON THESE VIRUSES ARE SETTING IN
21 AND DESTROYING THAT FROM OCCURRING.
22 AS A RESULT, THESE ANIMALS ARE BEING AFFLICTED
23 BY THESE VIRUSES. IT DESTROYS THE LINING OF THE TRACHEA,
24 WHICH THEN ALLOWS BACTERIA TO MIGRATE DOWN INTO THE LUNGS.
25 AND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, THE ZOOS HAVE SAID BIGHORN
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131
13 1 SHEEP DIED OF BACTERIAL PNEUMONIA. WHAT THE INSTITUTE HAS
2 BEEN ABLE TO SHOW IS THEY OFTEN CAN BE, NOT ALWAYS, BUT
3 VIRUSES CAN PLAY A BIG PART IN CREATING THAT PNEUMONIA
4 PROCESS BY PREDISPOSING THEM TO SUCH.
5 IN '82, SOME OF YOU MAY REMEMBER AN ANIMAL WE
6 CAPTURED BY THE NAME OF -- HE WAS CAPTURED ON JUNE 6,
7 1982, SO HE WAS DUBBED "D-DAY" BY THE PRESS. HE WAS OUR
8 FIRST LITTLE BIGHORN BROUGHT IN. HE WAS AN ANIMAL THAT WE
9 HAD HOPED WE WOULD BE ABLE TO LEARN FROM, BUT WE DIDN'T
10 KNOW IF HE WOULD SURVIVE. HE WAS IN PRETTY CRITICAL
11 SHAPE. AS I REMEMBER, HE HAD AROUND 60 PERCENT OF HIS
12 LUNGS CONSOLIDATED WITH PNEUMONIA.
13 HE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE, I THINK, OF SOME OF THE
14 EFFORTS AT THE INSTITUTE, LIKE THE OTHER 31 THAT FOLLOWED,
15 OR AT LEAST 31 OUT OF THE ADDITIONAL 35. HERE HE IS THREE
16 YEARS LATER, AS HE GOES BACK INTO THE WILD. AND HE HAS
17 BEEN SUCCESSFULLY RELEASED AND PRETTY GOOD LIFE.
18 THIS HAS BEEN SOMEWHAT OF THE EFFORTS OF THE
19 INSTITUTE. WE ARE DEALING WITH SHEEP IN THE WILD. WE
20 HAVE A NUMBER OF THEM RADIO -COLLARED. MOST ANIMALS IN THE
21 NORTH END OF THE RANGE ARE RADIO -COLLARED. AND THAT'S
22 FROM HIGHWAY 74 OVER TO CATHEDRAL CITY.
23 BUT A BIG FOCUS OF OUR LEARNING AND SOME OF THE
24 ABILITIES THAT WE WOULDN'T HAVE IN THE WILD IS THAT OF
25 HAVING A CAPTIVE HERD FOR BOTH HAVING THE ABILITY TO
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14 1 USE -- SEE THE EFFECTS OF VACCINES AS WELL AS DO SOME
2 PRETTY FANCY STUFF WITH LITTLE LAMBS THAT ARE BORN.
3 THIS IS A LAMB BORN AT THE INSTITUTE TO ONE OF
4 OUR EWES. WHAT WE ARE ABLE TO DO WHEN THESE ANIMALS ARE
5 BORN IS, WE OBVIOUSLY KNOW THE BEHAVIOR OF EACH
6 INDIVIDUAL. OUR PEOPLE ARE TRAINED FOR SUCH. AND WHEN
7 THE ANIMAL GIVES BIRTH OR THE EWE IS READY TO DROP, WE'RE
8 PRETTY MUCH ON TOP OF IT.
9 WE'RE ABLE TO GET WEIGHTS AND MEASUREMENTS AND
10 EVERYTHING OF THE LITTLE GUYS. AND PROBABLY ONE OF THE
11 MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE'RE ABLE TO DO HERE IS GET A
12 LITTLE BIT OF BIOLOGICAL SAMPLES, SUCH AS BLOOD, SO WE CAN
13 SEE WHAT THE ANIMAL LOOKS LIKE AT BIRTH AND FOLLOW IT
14 THROUGH THE FIRST YEAR OR SO OF ITS LIFE, ITS HEALTH, AND
15 SEE WHAT KIND OF A HEALTH PATTERN WE'RE GETTING FROM THESE
16 ANIMALS.
17 THE END RESULT, AGAIN, HAS BEEN THAT THE
18 INSTITUTE HAS BEEN EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL. AND IT'S AN
19 EXTREMELY IMPORTANT PART OF OUR OPERATION IS, WE WOULD NOT
20 HAVE THE ABILITY TO BRING IN SICK LAMBS IF WE DIDN'T HAVE
21 THE ABILITY TO RELEASE THEM, OR GET RID OF THEM, YOU MIGHT
22 SAY.
23 THIS IS KIND OF A BY-PRODUCT OF OUR SUCCESS,
24 BUT THE END RESULT HAS BEEN WE HAVE RELEASED OVER 40
25 ANIMALS INTO THE NORTH END OF THE SANTA ROSAS. AND A GOOD
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14 1 PORTION -- I BELIEVE IT'S AROUND 70 PERCENT OF THE HERD IN
2 THE NORTH END NOW, AROUND THE PALM DESERT/RANCHO MIRAGE
3 AREA, ARE ANIMALS THAT HAVE EITHER BEEN SUCCESSFULLY
4 REHABILITATED AT THE INSTITUTE OR RELEASED FROM OUR
5 CAPTIVE PROGRAM AS BORN THERE.
6 SO THE BIGHORN HAS A COUPLE BATTLES AT HAND
7 HERE. WE'VE -- THEY'VE BEEN BATTLING THE PNEUMONIA
8 PROCESS AND THE EXISTENCE ON PLANET EARTH HERE FOR A
9 WHILE, BUT WE'VE ALSO -- AND THE REASON WE'RE HERE TONIGHT
10 IS, THERE'S BEEN A CONCERN OVER BUFFER DISTANCE. AND A
11 LOT OF TALK THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN AND SUCH HAS FOCUSED ON
12 GOOD LOGIC FROM THE STANDPOINT OF BUFFER DISTANCES FROM
13 CERTAIN AREAS.
14 YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT, THOUGH, FROM THE
15 PERSPECTIVE OF THE BIGHORN, WHICH YOU HAVE HERE. THIS IS
16 THE SIDE OF THE PEN THAT OVERLOOKS MR. HAYHOE'S PROPERTY
17 AND THE PROPOSED PROJECT BEFORE YOU, AS IT WOULD BE. I
18 MEAN WHAT YOU SEE HERE IS THE SIDE OF THE PEN -- THE
19 NORTHEAST SIDE OF THE PEN, WHERE WE HAVE OVER 90 PERCENT
20 OF THE LAMBS BORN.
21 AS A RESULT OF THAT, DURING THE LAMBING PERIOD,
22 THE EWES ARE EXTREMELY SENSITIVE TO DISTURBANCES AND SUCH.
23 IT OBVIOUSLY BECOMES MORE OF A HIGHLY SENSITIVE AREA THAN
24 JUST ANY SIDE OF A PEN OR ANY SITUATION.
25 THESE ANIMALS DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO LEAVE
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14 1 THE PEN AND, AS A RESULT, IF THEY ARE STRESSED TO SOME
2 DEGREE -- WILD SHEEP HAVE THE ABILITY TO LEAVE AND COME
3 BACK TO AN AREA A MONTH OR TWO LATER, WHATEVER.
4 BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUENESS OF THIS FACILITY AND
5 SUCH, IT HAS CREATED A LOT OF THE VARIATION AMONG EXPERTS,
6 YOU MIGHT SAY. BUT, AGAIN, THERE IS A CONSENSUS, FOR THE
7 CONCERN OF THE ANIMAL, OF A SUBSTANTIAL BUFFER.
8 WE'RE OBVIOUSLY HOPEFUL THAT OUR OPERATION CAN
9 CONTINUE. WE LIKE IT AT THE LOCATION IT IS. WE HAVE
10 EXPLORED OPTIONS AND CONTINUE TO, BUT THE SITUATION IS ONE
11 OF -- THE INSTITUTE HAS BEEN EXTREMELY HELPFUL IN KEEPING
12 THE BIGHORN POPULATION GOING HERE IN THE NORTH END OF THE
13 SANTA ROSAS. AND, OBVIOUSLY, IT'S BEEN A TREMENDOUS
14 SOURCE OF INFORMATION IN TERMS OF OUR LEARNING FOR THESE
15 ANIMALS AS WELL AS SHEEP THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.
16 WE HAVE BEEN FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO WORK IN NINE
17 OTHER WESTERN STATES AND MEXICO. AND SO, BECAUSE OF OUR
18 EXPERIENCES, BECAUSE OF OUR EXPERTISE IN THIS PROJECT
19 HERE, WE HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN A NUMBER OF DIE -OFFS
20 THROUGHOUT NORTH AMERICA.
21 I HOPE THAT THE COUNCIL LOOKS AT THIS. WE CAN
22 TALK ABOUT GOLF COURSES, AND THERE IS A LOT OF ECONOMICS,
23 AND I WOULD CHALLENGE ANYBODY TO SAY IF THOSE LOTS OR
24 THOSE ACRES WERE $100 AN ACRE, WOULD WE BE HERE TONIGHT?
25 I REALIZE THAT'S BEING A LITTLE BIT FACETIOUS, IT'S NOT
15
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15 1 MEANT AS SUCH.
2 BUT THE BIGHORN HAS RIGHTS TOO. AND IT'S AN
3 ANIMAL THAT, IF THIS VALLEY AND IF THIS COMMISSION FEELS
4 IT'S IMPORTANT, THEN IT HAS TO BE ADDRESSED. IT'S
5 INTERESTING TO ME TO SIT IN THE AUDIENCE. AND, AGAIN,
6 I'LL COME BACK AND TRY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.
7 BUT WE'RE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT WHAT CAN WE GET
8 BY WITH? AND I ASK YOU IF YOUR SON OR SOMETHING, OR YOUR
9 SPOUSE WAS DYING OF SOME KIND OF HEART DISEASE AND YOU'RE
10 TOLD TO GIVE SO MANY MILLIGRAMS OF SOMETHING, WOULD YOU
11 CUT IT IN HALF AND TAKE A CHANCE ON IT?
12 I GUESS THAT'S WHERE WE'RE AT HERE. WE'VE GOT
13 A SUBSPECIES THAT'S WALKING A FINE LINE. AND I THINK THE
14 TESTIMONY THAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO HEAR FROM OTHER EXPERTS
15 WILL BEAR THAT OUT. AND IT'S A TOUGH QUESTION BECAUSE WE
16 HAVE AN ANIMAL THAT'S IN NEED OF OUR ASSISTANCE.
17 THANK YOU.
18 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
19 ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS AT THIS TIME BY THE
20 COUNCIL?
21 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: MR. DE FORGE --
22 MR. DE FORGE: YES.
23 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: -- I'D LIKE TO ASK A QUESTION.
24 I'D LIKE TO HAVE YOU RESPOND TO THE 400-YARD BUFFER.
25 MR. DE FORGE: IN WHAT REGARD? IN WHAT WAY? YOU
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15 1 MEAN THE BUFFER THAT THE CITY STAFF IS PROPOSING?
2 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: YES, SIR.
3 MR. DE FORGE: WELL, I'M SUPPORTIVE OF WHAT THE
4 ENVIRONMENTAL CONSULTANTS CAME UP WITH, AND THE MAJORITY
5 OF THE BIOLOGICAL EXPERTS CAME UP WITH A MUCH MORE
6 SUBSTANTIAL BUFFER THAN 400 YARDS. IT'S NOTHING THAT WE
7 FEEL IS -- IS NOTHING MORE THAN MAKES US A ZOO FACILITY,
8 AND IT'S NEVER BEEN OUR INTENT TO BE A ZOO FACILITY.
9 AND YOU CAN TALK -- YOU CAN HEAR TALK FROM
10 MR. DOUGLAS OR OTHERS WHO SPENT MAYBE A HALF HOUR IN THAT
11 PEN AND HAS ALL OF A SUDDEN BECOME AN EXPERT ON THE
12 HABITUATION OF THOSE ANIMALS AND SUCH. AND I QUESTION
13 WHERE HE GETS THE DATA FOR THOSE KIND OF STATEMENTS
14 BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, WHAT YOU'RE GETTING IS A ONE-SIDED
15 APPROACH TO THE WHOLE SITUATION WHEN YOU'VE HAD 29 PEOPLE
16 BEING ABLE TO GIVE THEIR EXPERTISE TO THAT.
17 I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED THAT THE BIOLOGISTS WHO
18 CAME UP WITH THESE RECOMMENDATIONS AND ESTABLISHED THAT
19 BUFFER, FOR SOME REASON, ARE NOT HERE TONIGHT. I DO NOT
20 UNDERSTAND THAT LEGAL PROCESS OF THE CITY LAW HERE.
21 COULD I ASK ANDI ADAMS ABOUT THAT OR --
22 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: MR. MAYOR, THE QUESTION
23 NEEDS TO BE DIRECTED THROUGH THE CHAIR.
24 MR. DE FORGE: I'M SORRY, MR. MAYOR.
25 MAYOR SNYDER: YES. WE'LL HAVE TO DO THIS. I'LL --
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15 1 AND IF THE CITY ATTORNEY CHOOSES TO REPORT, SURELY. WE
2 TRY TO KEEP THIS -- NOT THIS KIND OF CONFRONTATION, BUT IF
3 YOU SO CHOOSE TO DO THAT, WE WILL SO ANSWER IT.
4 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: WE CAN RESPOND.
5 MS. ADAMS: MR. MAYOR, I WAS -- I WAS CONSULTING THE
6 E.I.R. ON SOMETHING AND, I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T HEAR THE
7 QUESTION. JUST TO BE SURE, WAS IT WAS THE BIOLOGIST HERE?
8 IS THAT THE QUESTION?
9 MAYOR SNYDER: I BELIEVE THAT WAS THE QUESTION; THAT
10 HE QUESTIONED THAT WHICH BIOLOGISTS WERE HERE AND WHY
11 SOMEBODY WASN'T HERE.
12 MS. ADAMS: WELL, THE CITY IS -- TONIGHT WE HAVE, TO
13 MY RIGHT, MITCH BEAUCHAMP, PRESIDENT OF PACIFIC SOUTHWEST
14 BIOLOGICAL SURVEYS --SERVICES, THE BIOLOGICAL CONSULTANT
15 ON THIS PROJECT. SO, YES, THEY ARE HERE.
16 MR. DE FORGE: COULD I ASK MR. BEAUCHAMP A FEW
17 QUESTIONS?
18 MAYOR SNYDER: YOU'LL HAVE TO ASK IT THROUGH ME.
19 MR. DE FORGE: I JUST WONDER, IF MR. BEAUCHAMP'S
20 VERSED IN THE BUFFER DISTANCE, WHY HE CAME UP WITH THIS
21 BUFFER DISTANCE, OR HIS FIRM DID, FOR EVERYBODY'S INTEREST
22 HERE, BECAUSE THE INSTITUTE HAS SUPPORTED THE BEST
23 BIOLOGICAL EXPERTISE THAT WE FELT WAS OUT THERE.
24 COUNCILMAN CRITES: MR. MAYOR, IF I MAY INTERRUPT, IT
25 WOULD SEEM TO ME APPROPRIATE THAT THOSE ARE QUESTIONS THAT
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15 1 BE DIRECTED TO OUR CONSULTANT BY MEMBERS OF THIS BODY
2 AFTER WE HAVE LISTENED TO ALL THE TESTIMONY, AND WE MIGHT
3 ASK OUR BIOLOGICAL CONSULTANTS TO RESPOND TO THE VARIETIES
4 OF TESTIMONY THAT HAVE HEARD THIS EVENING. THAT SEEMS TO
5 BE THE MOST APPROPRIATE WAY, IF WE WISH TO ASK THOSE
6 QUESTIONS.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO GAIN
8 ANYTHING BY CONFRONTATION HERE.
9 MR. DE FORGE: NO, I'M NOT TRYING TO CREATE ONE,
10 MR. MAYOR.
11 MR. ROBERTS: LET ME JUST CLARIFY ONE THING. THERE
12 WAS TWO BIOLOGISTS THAT WORKED ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT,
13 AND I SENT A LETTER IN TO THE CITY, I THINK IT WAS A WEEK
14 AGO TUESDAY, REQUESTING THAT THEY BE HERE BECAUSE THEY
15 WERE NOT AT THE LAST PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING.
16 AND IF ANYBODY HAS READ THOSE MINUTES, I_MEAN I
17 WAS JUST -- I WAS LAMBASTED. I WAS ASKED EVERY QUESTION
18 IN THE WORLD REGARDING WHAT THOSE PEOPLE HAD DECIDED TO
19 DO. AND THAT'S WHY WE REQUESTED THAT THEY BE HERE.
20 AND, IN ALL FAIRNESS, WE'RE IN A POSITION WHERE
21 THE STAFF REPORT PREVIOUSLY HAS ALWAYS FAVORED NO BUFFER.
22 AND THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT WERE, IF YOU WANT TO SAY ON OUR
23 SIDE, WERE THE VERY PEOPLE WHO RECOMMENDED THE BUFFER.
24 AND THEY'VE NEVER BEEN HERE.
25 AND, YOU KNOW, THE CONSCIOUS DECISION WAS MADE
16
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16 1 THAT THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO BE HERE TONIGHT. AND
2 DOES IT BOTHER ME? THE QUESTION IS YES. BUT THAT'S
3 BASICALLY HOW IT STARTED, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW IT ENDED,
4 BUT I DIDN'T GET A RESPONSE TO MY LETTER, AND I
5 UNDERSTAND.
6 THANK YOU.
7 IF I COULD, NOW, OR IF YOU WANT TO REPLY OR --
8 I DON'T KNOW WHAT -- IT'S A FACT OF LIFE THAT THEY'RE NOT
9 HERE. AND I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, SO WE'RE HOPEFUL
10 THAT THERE WILL BE THE OPPORTUNITY OR YOU CAN ASK
11 QUESTIONS OF THOSE PEOPLE.
12 COUNCILMAN CRITES: MR. ROBERTS, THEY ARE HERE.
13 MR. ROBERTS: I DON'T THINK ALL OF THEM ARE HERE THAT
14 WORKED ON THE PROJECT.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: IF WE HAD HAD EVERYBODY HERE THAT
16 WORKED ON THE PROJECT, WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO HAVE ANYBODY
17 ELSE HERE. WHEN WE STARTED THIS PROGRAM, I HAD A FULL
18 HEAD OF HAIR.
19 MR. ROBERTS: OKAY. WE HAVE THREE PEOPLE WE'RE GOING
20 TO INTRODUCE NOW. THESE ARE ALL BIGHORN EXPERTS THAT WERE
21 PART OF THE SURVEY. THE FIRST ONE WE'LL INTRODUCE IS MARK
22 JORGENSEN.
23 MARK IS A STATE PARK NATURALIST FOR
24 ANZA-BORREGO PARK FOR THE PAST 19 YEARS, AND HE'S BEEN A
25 MEMBER OF THE BIGHORN TECHNICAL STAFF COUNCIL SINCE 1973.
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16 1 AND HE STARTED HIS CAREER IN THE FIELD,
2 SPENDING DAYS AND MONTHS, BASICALLY, MAKING SURVEYS AND
3 HAS STUDIED THE FOOD HABITS, HABITAT NEEDS OF THE BIGHORN
4 SHEEP, NOT ONLY HERE LOCALLY, BUT IN MEXICO AND SAUDI
5 ARABIA.
6 AND AT THIS TIME I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE MARK
7 JORGENSEN.
8 MR. JORGENSEN: IT'S NOT GOOD MORNING YET. IT'S
9 STILL GOOD EVENING. AND IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE AND BE
10 ABLE TO SHARE SOME OF MY EXPERIENCES WITH THE COUNCIL AND
11 WITH THE MAYOR.
12 I'D LIKE TO REFER TO THE POPULATION TREND
13 GRAPHIC THAT WE HAVE UP HERE, WHICH JUST PUTS WHERE WE ARE
14 HERE IN 1991 IN A LITTLE BIT OF PERSPECTIVE AND WHY MANY
15 OF US BIOLOGISTS AND NATURALISTS AND PEOPLE CONCERNED WITH
16 THE DESERT ENVIRONMENT ARE PRESENTLY VERY CONCERNED WITH
17 THE BIGHORN SHEEP IN THE PENINSULAR RANGES OF SOUTHERN
18 CALIFORNIA.
19 TO PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE A LITTLE BIT, THE
20 PENINSULAR BIGHORN, AS IT'S BEEN DESIGNATED AS A
21 SUBSPECIES, LIVES IN THE UNITED STATES ONLY FROM PALM
22 SPRINGS TO THE MEXICAN BORDER. OTHER POPULATIONS OF THIS
23 SAME SUBSPECIES DO SURVIVE IN BAJA, CALIFORNIA, WHERE
24 THEIR PROTECTED STATUS IS VERY TENUOUS. SO WE FEEL THAT
25 WE HAVE A LAST VESTIGE HERE OF A BIOLOGICALLY AND
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L6 1 GEOGRAPHICALLY ISOLATED GROUP OF BIGHORN SHEEP.
2 THE INTERCHANGE THAT USED TO OCCUR IN THE
3 PLEISTOCENE BETWEEN THE OROCOPIAS OF THE SAN BERNARDINO
4 MOUNTAINS AND RANGES ON SOUTH DOES NOT OCCUR ANYMORE, AND
5 SO WE DO HAVE A GEOGRAPHICALLY ISOLATED GROUP.
6 IN THE 1970'S, AROUND 1978 OR '9, THE ESTIMATE
7 OF THE CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME FOR THIS
8 SUBSPECIES IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA WAS ABOUT 1170 ANIMALS,
9 AS YOU CAN SEE ON THE CHART WITH THE PURPLE LINE. WITHIN
10 THE SANTA ROSAS AT THAT TIME, AS DR. TURNER REFERENCED, WE
11 FELT THERE WERE SOMEWHERE BETWEEN FIVE AND 700 ANIMALS,
12 GIVE OR TAKE A FEW.
13 WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THIS POPULATION IN GENERAL
14 HAS BEEN DECLINE. DRASTIC DECLINE IN SOME AREAS, SUCH AS
15 THE SAN JACINTO MOUNTAINS AND PARTS OF THE SANTA ROSAS,
16 DRASTIC DECLINE ON THE MEXICAN BORDER IN THE CARRIZO
17 CANYON IN THE IN-KO-PAH MOUNTAINS. AND, THUS FAR, AS FAR
18 AS I CAN DETERMINE FROM 21 YEARS OF SURVEYS AT WATER
19 HOLES, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RANGE, IN ANZA-BORREGO PROPER
20 AROUND PALM CANYON AND COYOTE CANYON, WE HAVE SOMEWHAT OF
21 A STEADY HOLD ON THE POPULATION.
22 BUT AS YOU CAN SEE, THIS DOWNWARD TREND
23 CONTINUED. IN THE EARLY 1980'S, WE DROPPED OUR ESTIMATE
24 TO 975. LATER ON, IN ABOUT 1987 OR '88, WE ALL GOT
25 TOGETHER WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME AND THEIR
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16 1 BIOLOGISTS AND THEIR VETS AND THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE AND
2 THE BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT, AND WE REEVALUATED OUR
3 ESTIMATES AND WE DROPPED IT TO 575.
4 LAST FALL WE GOT TOGETHER AGAIN, AND WE
5 REEVALUATED OUR ESTIMATES ONCE AGAIN. AND BASED ON AERIAL
6 SURVEYS IN THE SANTA ROSA MOUNTAINS, WE PUT OUR ESTIMATE
7 AT 380 ANIMALS, TOTAL U.S. POPULATION FOR THIS SUBSPECIES.
8 NOW, AT WHAT POINT ARE WE GOING TO BECOME
9 ALARMED? ARE WE GOING LET IT GET TO 150, 125? YOU KNOW,
10 ARE THEY THIS RESILIENT THAT WHEN IT STARTS TO RAIN AGAIN
11 AND WE GET SOME GOOD WILDFLOWERS AND GOOD FORAGE GROWTH,
12 ARE THEY GOING TO BOUNCE BACK LIKE JACKRABBITS? I
13 SERIOUSLY DOUBT IT. I DON'T SEE THAT THAT RESILIENCE HAS
14 BEEN BUILT INTO THESE ANIMALS.
15 MY MOST RECENT SHEEP SURVEY WAS OVER THE FOURTH
16 OF JULY WEEKEND. AND AFTER EIGHT INCHES OF RAIN RECORDED
17 AT ANZA-BORREGO HEADQUARTERS AND THE BEST ANNUAL BLOOM
18 THAT WE'VE SEEN IN ABOUT 12 YEARS, ABUNDANT WATER,
19 ABUNDANT FORAGE, THIS IS THE TIME WHERE YOU WOULD EXPECT
20 SOME REBOUND. THE LAMB NUMBERS ARE STILL IN DECLINE.
21 FLAT LINE. YOU KNOW, TWO OUT OF TEN SURVIVING UP UNTIL
22 THE FOURTH OF JULY, AND WE STILL HAVE THE REST OF THE
23 SUMMER TO GO.
24 SO THE PRESENT ESTIMATE FOR THE SANTA ROSA
25 MOUNTAINS, RIGHT HERE IN YOUR BACKYARD, IS ABOUT 120
17
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17 1 ANIMALS. WE HAVE ABOUT 260 DOWN IN THE SOUTHERN RANGE,
2 FROM ANZA-BORREGO ON DOWN TO THE BORDER.
3 NO ONE CAN REFUTE THE FACT THAT THIS POPULATION
4 IS IN DECLINE. WE ARGUE ABOUT WHETHER IT'S ACTUALLY A
5 SUBSPECIES, WE ARGUE ABOUT WHAT THE CAUSES FOR DECLINE
6 ARE, HABITAT ENCROACHMENT, WHETHER IT'S DISEASE. IF IT IS
7 DISEASE, IS IT PI-3 OR IS IT E.H.D. OR IS IT, YOU KNOW, A
8 MILLION OTHER LONG -NAMED VIRUSES? WE CAN ARGUE UNTIL
9 WE'RE BLUE IN THE FACE ABOUT WHAT IT IS.
10 WE DO HAVE CONTROL OVER SOME THINGS, AND THAT
11 IS WHAT WE DO TO THE HABITAT AND NEXT TO THE HABITAT.
12 RIGHT NOW WE HAVE OVER 18 MILLION PEOPLE WHO LIVE WITHIN A
13 THREE-HOUR DRIVE OF THE PENINSULAR RANGES, SO THE PROBLEM
14 OF HABITAT ENCROACHMENT IS RAPIDLY ACCELERATING.
15 TODAY THERE ARE MORE GOLF COURSES IN THIS
16 VALLEY THAN THERE ARE PENINSULAR BIGHORN UP ON THOSE HILLS
17 LOOKING DOWN INTO THE COACHELLA VALLEY. TO ME, THAT IS A
18 VERY SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS. THE MOST RECENT COUNT OF GOLF
19 COURSES THAT I WAS ABLE TO RECEIVE WAS 104, AND I HAVE TO
20 WONDER, DOES THIS VALLEY NEED ANOTHER GOLF COURSE? I
21 DON'T THINK SO.
22 AND I WONDER WHEN THE GOVERNMENTS OF THIS
23 VALLEY ARE GOING TO SIT DOWN AND DECLARE ENOUGH IS ENOUGH,
24 THAT WE HAVE GONE FAR ENOUGH. I FLEW WITH COUNCILMAN
25 CRITES FOR THREE HOURS IN A HELICOPTER LAST WEEK TO
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17 1 DETERMINE THE AVAILABILITY OF ALTERNATE SITES TO RESITUATE
2 A NEW AND, HOPEFULLY, REJUVENATED BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
3 WE FOUND NO LOCALES THAT MET BIGHORN
4 REQUIREMENTS TO THE EXTENT THAT THE PRESENT SITE DOES, BUT
5 WE ALL WERE ASTOUNDED TO FIND THAT VIRTUALLY EVERY SQUARE
6 INCH OF THE VALLEY FLOOR IN THE COACHELLA VALLEY BETWEEN
7 SAN GORGONIO PASS AND LAKE CAHUILLA WAS BUILT OUT WITH
8 TURF OR CEMENT OR ROOFTOPS.
9 ONE THING WE WERE LOOKING FOR WAS THIS BUFFER
10 BETWEEN SUITABLE HABITAT, STEEP TERRAIN, AND THE NEAREST
11 CONSTRUCTION OR THE NEAREST DEVELOPMENT. AND I'LL TELL
12 YOU, THIS PLACE IS -- IS BUILT OUT IN MOST OF THE VALLEY
13 ON THIS WEST SIDE.
14 SO FROM THE AVERAGE CITIZEN'S POINT OF VIEW,
15 FROM WHAT WE SURVEYED, THE NUMBER OF GOLF COURSES WE SAW,
16 IT LOOKS TO ME THAT -- THAT THIS VALLEY IS BECOMING A
17 SODOM AND GOMORRAH. THAT EXCESSES IS JUST RAMPANT. IT'S
18 AMAZING. AND WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE MIDST OF A
19 DROUGHT.
20 SO I THINK YOU HAVE A CHOICE, DURING THIS
21 HEARING PROCESS, TO DO THE RIGHT THING: TO TAKE A STEP
22 TOWARD THE PRESERVATION OF DESERT HABITAT THAT IS OUT
23 THERE, THAT IS STILL -- MUCH OF IT IS STILL VERY HIGH
24 QUALITY. IT'S NOT JUST THIS SITE, BUT IT'S THE NEXT
25 PROJECT THAT COMES ALONG AND THE NEXT ONE NEXT YEAR, AND
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17 1 TO THINK AHEAD OF THE FUTURE, THAT THE QUALITY OF LIFE
2 OVER HERE IN YOUR COMMUNITY IS IN YOUR HANDS.
3 SO WILL THIS VALLEY BE A BETTER PLACE WITH A
4 BIGHORN INSTITUTE OR WITH ANOTHER GOLF COURSE? TO ME, THE
5 CHOICE IS YOURS. BUT ON THE BEHALF OF A BELEAGUERED
6 POPULATION OF BIGHORN SHEEP, I PLEAD WITH YOU TO MAKE THE
7 ONLY RIGHT DECISION, AND THAT IS TO GIVE THE BIGHORN A
8 WIDE BERTH.
9 MAYOR SNYDER: WE HAVE A QUESTION. WE HAVE A
10 QUESTION.
11 COUNCILMAN WILSON: QUESTION, MR. JORGENSEN.
12 I HAD DIFFICULTY FOLLOWING YOUR CORRELATION
13 BETWEEN SHEEP AND GOLF COURSES. COULD YOU BE MORE
14 SPECIFIC? ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE AREA WHERE THIS GOLF
15 COURSE IS GOING IS A BIGHORN SHEEP HABITAT? BECAUSE ALL
16 THE TESTIMONY WE'VE SEEN FROM THE EXPERTS SAYS CLEARLY
17 THAT IT IS NOT, SO I CANNOT SEE HOW THERE IS A CAUSATION,
18 IF WE BUILD A GOLF COURSE THERE, WE'RE GOING TO BE HURTING
19 THE SHEEP.
20 MR. JORGENSEN: WELL, ONE DETERMINATION AS TO WHY IT
21 WASN'T HABITAT WAS BECAUSE IT WASN'T LISTED ON ANYBODY'S
22 HABITAT MANAGEMENT PLANS IN THE PAST. .TO ME, THAT'S NOT A
23 MEASURE OF WHETHER IT'S VALUABLE TO BIGHORN OR NOT.
24 AND DO BIGHORN LIVE DOWN ON THE LOWER SLOPES
25 YEAR-ROUND? NO, THEY DON'T. BUT IS THERE A TIME OF YEAR
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18 1 IN THE LIFE CYCLE OF A SHEEP OR IN THE TEN OR 12 YEARS OF
2 A BIGHORN SHEEP WHEN THAT LOWER SLOPE MAY BE CRITICAL TO
3 THEIR WELL-BEING? AND MY ANSWER TO THAT IS YES.
4 IN OUR SURVEYS, WE FIND PLACES WHERE WE'VE SEEN
5 SHEEP FOR YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR. WE GO THERE,
6 THEY'RE NOT THERE. AND THE VALLEY FLOOR HAPPENS TO BE
7 GREENED UP AND, BECAUSE OF THE WEATHER SITUATION AND THE
8 COLD OR WHERE IT GOT WARM AND WHERE MOISTURE FELL, THOSE
9 LOWER SLOPES DOWN BELOW 1,000 FEET ARE ALL GREENED UP AND,
10 SURE ENOUGH, THAT'S WHERE WE FIND THE SHEEP.
11 I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S PRIME BIGHORN HABITAT,
12 BUT I'M SAYING THAT THESE LOWER SLOPES OF THIS COACHELLA
13 VALLEY WERE IMPORTANT TO BIGHORN SHEEP IN THE PAST. AND
14 IF IT WERE IN MY HANDS AND IF THERE WERE SOME LAST
15 VESTIGES OF THIS, I WOULD BE THE FIRST TO STEP OUT THERE
16 AND SAY WE'VE GOT TO SAVE THEM.
17 MR. ROBERTS: DR. RAUL VALDEZ BEGAN AT A VERY EARLY
18 AGE, BACK WHEN HE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL, TAKING AN INTEREST
19 IN BIGHORN SHEEP IN ASIA. AND HE DECIDED, BASICALLY, TO
20 PURSUE THAT TYPE OF A FOUNDATION FOR THE REST HIS LIFE.
21 IN 1970, HE RECEIVED HIS DOCTORATE FROM THE
22 UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT EL PASO, SPECIALIZING IN WILDLIFE
23 SCIENCE. AND HE SPENT A NUMBER OF YEARS IN IRAN,
24 BASICALLY, FINALLY WINDING UP IN CHARGE OF THE DEPARTMENT
25 OF THE ENVIRONMENT OF WILD SHEEP. AND ALSO SPENT TIME IN
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18 1 PAKISTAN, SAUDI ARABIA, CHINA, AND A GREAT DEAL OF TIME IN
2 BAJA, CALIFORNIA.
3 IN 1975, HE JOINED THE FACULTY OF THE
4 DEPARTMENT OF WILDLIFE AND FISHING SCIENCES AT TEXAS A&M
5 UNIVERSITY AND IS NOW PROFESSOR OF WILDLIFE SCIENCE AT
6 NEW MEXICO STATE UNIVERSITY.
7 RAU L .
8 DR. VALDEZ: MR. MAYOR, CITY COUNCIL, CITY STAFF.
9 THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO ADDRESS YOU.
10 WHAT CAUGHT MY EYE WHEN I WALKED INTO THIS ROOM
•11 WAS THAT MURAL BEHIND YOU. AND I THINK IT TELLS A LOT
12 ABOUT THIS COMMUNITY. I SEE MOUNTAINS, I SEE DESERT
13 DUNES, I SEE PLANTS.
14 AND I GATHER THAT THERE IS AN ECOLOGICAL
15 CONSCIENCE IN THIS COMMUNITY. PEOPLE HERE ARE CONCERNED
16 ABOUT THE COMMUNITY -- ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT. THEY ARE IN
17 TUNE TO THE ENVIRONMENT. AND, BY THE WAY, I DO NOT SEE
18 HOUSES ON THAT MURAL. OF COURSE, HOUSES ARE PART OF THIS
19 COMMUNITY, JUST AS BIGHORNS ARE.
20 SO THIS COMMUNITY IS ENVIRONMENTALLY AWARE AND
21 THEY UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE HUMAN
22 COMMUNITY AND THE NATURAL COMMUNITY. AND, OF COURSE, WHAT
23 WE'RE CONCERNED HERE IS THIS SHARING OF THIS COMMUNITY
24 BETWEEN HUMANS AND THE BIGHORN.
25 BIGHORN WERE HERE THOUSANDS OF YEARS BEFORE
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18 1 HUMANS DECIDED THAT THEY WOULD ECONOMICALLY DEVELOP THIS
2 AREA. AND I BELIEVE, AS DO MANY OTHER PEOPLE, THAT
3 BIGHORNS HAVE A RIGHT TO BE HERE. PERHAPS, MORE SO THAN
4 HUMANS BECAUSE THEY PRECEDED HUMANS. THEY ALSO, THEN,
5 HAVE A RIGHT TO THE NATURAL RESOURCES OF THIS COMMUNITY.
6 AND WE KNOW -- IT'S BEEN WELL -ESTABLISHED
7 SCIENTIFICALLY THAT THEY ARE A FRAGILE SPECIES. THEY
8 REQUIRE SPECIAL ATTENTION.
9 ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CONCERNS WILDLIFE
10 BIOLOGISTS ABOUT BIGHORN AND PERVADES THEIR THINKING
11 RELATIVE TO MANAGING BIGHORN IS THIS THING CALLED STRESS.
12 AND STRESS CAN COME IN MANY FORMS: NOISES, DOGS, HUMAN
13 INTRUSIONS, DISTURBANCES OF ANY KIND.
14 UNLESS ANYONE UNDERPLAY THE IMPORTANCE OF
15 STRESS IN WILD ANIMALS, THINK WHAT STRESS DOES TO HUMAN
16 BEINGS. ULCERS. STRESS HAS EVEN BEEN IMPLICATED IN
17 CAUSING CANCER IN HUMAN BEINGS.
18 ANIMALS ALSO ARE AFFECTED BY STRESS. AND THERE
19 IS NO OTHER ANIMAL IN NORTH AMERICA THAT IS AS FRAGILE AND
20 CAN BE IMPACTED AS MUCH BY STRESS AS WILD SHEEP. THIS IS
21 AN ESTABLISHED, SCIENTIFIC FACT.
22 SO I WANT TO REVIEW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT
23 STRESS -- HOW STRESS CAN AFFECT WILD ANIMALS. AND I THINK
24 IT MIGHT SURPRISE YOU OF HOW IMPORTANT IT CAN BE IN
25 MAINTAINING THE VIABILITY OF A WILD SHEEP POPULATION. FOR
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18 1 EXAMPLE, IT'S BEEN FOUND THAT -- AND, AGAIN, I EMPHASIZE,
2 THIS IS BASED ON STRONG, SOUND, SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH.
3 THIS STRESS CAN RESULT IN POOR SURVIVALSHIP OF
4 OFFSPRING OF STRESSED FEMALES AND, IN FACT, IN IMPAIRED
5 REPRODUCTIVE POTENTIAL OF MOTHERS. AND, OF COURSE, WHAT I
6 AM ALLUDING TO, THIS STRESS IS PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT
7 IN -- IN THIS SUBJECT THAT WE'RE DEALING HERE, THE CAPTIVE
19
8 POPULATION OF THE BIGHORN RESEARCH INSTITUTE, BECAUSE
9 THESE SHEEP CANNOT FLEE AND RUN AWAY FROM STRESSFUL
10 SITUATIONS.
11 SO THE IMPACTS OF STRESS CANNOT BE
12 OVEREMPHASIZED. IT HAS BEEN WELL ESTABLISHED. THERE ARE
13 SEVERAL DOCUMENTED CASES WHERE SHEEP POPULATIONS HAVE
14 DECLINED OR BECOME EXTINCT -- AND THIS IS A FACT -- DUE TO
15 DIRECT OR INDIRECT HUMAN -INDUCED STRESS FACTORS. AND
16 THERE WAS A QUESTION THAT ONE OF THE CITY COUNCILMEN
17 ADDRESSING -- ASKING, "WELL, IS THIS SHEEP HABITAT, WHERE
18 THEY ARE NOW?"
19 OF COURSE IT'S SHEEP HABITAT. THEY'RE THERE.
20 THEY'RE REPRODUCING. AND SO IN THAT SENSE, IT IS SHEEP
21 HABITAT. THE SHEEP HAVE ESTABLISHED THE FACT THAT THEY
22 ARE SUCCESSFULLY ADDING TO THE POPULATION OF SHEEP. THESE
23 SHEEP ARE THEN BEING RELEASED INTO THE WILD. AND I WILL
24 ADDRESS MORE RELATIVE TO THAT IN A MINUTE.
25 SO GOING BACK TO THIS THING ABOUT THEIR BEING A
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19 1 FRAGILE SPECIES. SO TO THOSE OF US WHO ESTEEM THE NATURAL
2 WORLD, IN SOME WAYS PLANTS AND ANIMALS HAVE A GREATER
3 VALUE THAN MANMADE OBJECTS. SO WE ALSO FEEL THAT ANIMALS
4 SHOULD BE GUARANTEED A RIGHTFUL SHARE OF NATURAL
5 RESOURCES.
6 AND WHAT IS IMPORTANT HERE IS THAT A LOT OF
7 PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THE HUMAN COMMUNITY'S
8 WELL-BEING IS DEPENDENT ON THE NATURAL COMMUNITY'S
9 VIABILITY. THIS IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT AND TRUE
10 STATEMENT. BUT, UNFORTUNATELY, DUE TO OUR HUMAN
11 SHORT-SIGHTEDNESS AND SOMETIMES IGNORANCE, ONE MUST
12 PRESENT ECONOMIC ARGUMENTS IF ONE IS TO JUSTIFY THE
13 EXISTENCE OF WILDLIFE POPULATIONS.
14 AND THERE IS, INDEED, AN ECONOMIC FACTOR HERE
15 THAT HAS TO BE CONSIDERED RELATIVE TO THE BIGHORN
16 INSTITUTE'S CONTINUED EXISTENCE. THEY ARE, IN FACT,
17 PRODUCING AND HAVE PRODUCED A SUCCESSFUL BREEDING PROGRAM.
18 THIS IS INCONTROVERTIBLE. IT IS THE ONLY GUARANTEED
19 SOURCE OF FUTURE INDIVIDUALS OF PENINSULAR BIGHORN IN
20 SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. THE ONLY ESTABLISHED SOURCE.
21 NOW, IF THIS CAPTIVE POPULATION SHOULD BE
22 HARMFULLY IMPACTED BY DEVELOPMENT, IT WOULD JEOPARDIZE THE
23 VIABILITY OF THE FREE -ROAMING POPULATION. AGAIN, IT IS
24 THE ONLY SOURCE, FUTURE SOURCE OF WILD ANIMALS, BECAUSE WE
25 KNOW THAT THE WILD POPULATION FACES A PRECARIOUS FUTURE.
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19 1 INDEED, IT HAS NOW BEEN PROPOSED TO BE PLACED IN THE U.S.
2 GOVERNMENT'S ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST.
3 NOW, THIS WOULD HAVE GRAVE ECONOMIC
4 CONSEQUENCES FOR THIS COMMUNITY. IN FACT, THIS COULD
5 RESULT IN PLACING RESTRICTIONS ON THE FUTURE DEVELOPMENT
6 OF LARGE PORTIONS OF UNDEVELOPED LAND. SO, IN FACT, THE
7 ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT OF THIS COMMUNITY COULD WELL BE
8 JEOPARDIZED.
9 THE BOTTOM POINT HERE IS THAT IT IS IN THE
10 INTERESTS OF EVERYBODY HERE, WE WHO LOVE THE BIGHORN, YOU
11 WHO ARE -- WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ECONOMIC
12 DEVELOPMENT OF THIS COMMUNITY, IT IS IN YOUR INTERESTS
13 THAT YOU DO NOT IN ANY WAY JEOPARDIZE THE SURVIVAL OF THIS
14 POPULATION. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. AND THERE'S REALLY NO
15 FIGHTING HERE. THERE'S NOTHING TO ARGUE ABOUT. THIS IS A
16 FACT.
17 SO, INDEED, THE ONLY HOPE OF MAINTAINING THE
18 WILD POPULATION IS TO MAINTAIN THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE. IT
19 IS SUCCESSFUL. THIS IS A FACT. LET'S NOT MESS WITH
20 SUCCESS. YOU ARE PLAYING A VERY RISKY GAME IF YOU IN ANY
21 WAY JEOPARDIZE THE EXISTENCE OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
22 THANK YOU.
23 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, SIR.
24 MR. ROBERTS: THE NEXT SPEAKER WILL BE DR. DALE
25 TOWEILL. HE'S THE WILDLIFE PROGRAM COORDINATOR OF THE
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19 1 IDAHO FISH AND GAME DEPARTMENT, AND HIS CURRENT PRIMARY
2 RESPONSIBILITY IS TO REVIEW AND EVALUATE ALL MAJOR E.I.R.
3 ACTIONS AFFECTING THE STATE OF IDAHO.
4 DALE SPENT FOUR YEARS AS A PRINCIPAL RESEARCH
5 WILDLIFE BIOLOGIST FOR FISH AND GAME, STUDYING HUMAN
6 INTERACTION WITH WILD BIGHORN SHEEP. DALE RECEIVED HIS
7 MASTER'S DEGREE SPECIALIZING IN ANIMAL BEHAVIOR AND
8 STUDIED UNDER DR. FRITZ WALTHER, WHO IS RENOWNED AS
9 SOMEBODY WHO HAS A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT BIGHORN SHEEP.
10 HE'S ALSO INVOLVED IN A LOT OF ORGANIZATIONS, INCLUDING
11 THE NORTHWEST SECTION OF THE WILDLIFE SOCIETY.
12 DALE.
13 MR. TOWEILL: MR. MAYOR AND COUNCIL MEMBERS.
14 MY NAME IS DALE TOWEILL. I RESIDE AT 7253
15 WAPITI IN BOISE, IDAHO.
16 I'M SURE IT WILL BE A RELIEF TO ALL OF YOU TO
17 KNOW THAT I'M HERE AS A MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO. I
18 HAVE NO ABILITY TO THREATEN ANYONE. I'M NOT UNDER SALARY
19 TO ANYBODY INVOLVED IN THIS DISPUTE. I'M HERE BECAUSE OF
20 A FAIRLY UNIQUE BACKGROUND.
21 THE ISSUES INVOLVED IN THIS DISPUTE DEAL WITH
22 BIGHORN SHEEP BIOLOGY, WITH BIGHORN SHEEP BEHAVIOR, AND
23 WITH FINDING A WIN -WIN SOLUTION TO A LAND USE DECISION
24 THAT CAN BE VERY COMPLEX.
25 I'LL DO MY BEST, AS A PROFESSIONAL WHOSE JOB IT
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_9 1 IS TO DEAL WITH THESE SITUATIONS REGULARLY, TO SIMPLIFY
'.0
2 THE ISSUES AS I PERCEIVE THEM AND TO HELP SHARPEN THE
3 AREAS OF CONCURRENCE BETWEEN THE PARTIES AND THE AREAS OF
4 DISAGREEMENTS YOU WILL HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION REGARDING.
5 I'M ALSO HERE FOR ANOTHER REASON. I WAS
6 SURPRISED TO HEAR EARLIER THIS EVENING THAT THERE ARE
7 PEOPLE HERE IN PALM DESERT THAT DON'T KNOW WHAT THE
8 MISSION OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE IS. YOU SEE, WHEN I WAS
9 A SHEEP BIOLOGIST IN IDAHO, MY JOB WAS TO EVALUATE THE
10 RESPONSES OF BIGHORN SHEEP TO HUMAN DISTURBANCE. THAT'S A
11 FAIRLY STRAIGHTFORWARD ASSIGNMENT.
12 IN IDAHO, WE HAVE A NUMBER OF FREE -RANGING
13 HERDS, AND THE ACTIVITIES ARE GENERALLY VERY
14 STRAIGHTFORWARD. HIKERS, BACKPACKERS, BIRD HUNTERS, BIG
15 GAME HUNTERS, A NUMBER OF THINGS. THE USUAL.
16 UNFORTUNATELY, WHILE I WAS SERVING IN THAT
17 POSITION, WE HAD A DIE -OFF IN HELL'S CANYON, A VERY
18 SERIOUS DIE -OFF THAT ULTIMATELY RESULTED IN A LOSS OF
19 APPROXIMATELY 80 PERCENT OF THE WILD FREE -RANGING BIGHORN
20 HERD. THAT WAS BEYOND MY EXPERTISE.
21 AS ANYONE WITH RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT KIND OF
22 A SITUATION WILL, I CALLED THE EXPERTS. I CALLED OTHER
23 SHEEP BIOLOGISTS, I CALLED WILDLIFE VETERINARIANS
24 THROUGHOUT THE WEST AND CANADA. I ASKED FOR HELP.
25 THE RESPONSE I GOT WAS, "YOU KNOW, WE -- YOU
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20 1 HAVE A PROBLEM, AND THERE'S ONE PERSON AND ONE AGENCY WHO
2 CAN BE HELPFUL. CALL JIM DE FORGE AT THE BIGHORN
3 INSTITUTE. HE HAS A PROGRAM FOCUSED ON SHEEP DISEASES."
4 NOW, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY OF YOU REALIZE HOW
5 COMMON THAT KNOWLEDGE IS. IT'S NOT COMMON AT ALL.
6 WILDLIFE BIOLOGISTS ARE A RELATIVELY SMALL GROUP
7 PROFESSIONALLY, AND BY AND LARGE WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH A
8 MYRIAD OF ISSUES AND A MYRIAD OF SPECIES.
9 IN IDAHO, I'M RESPONSIBLE FOR ASSESSING IMPACTS
10 OF APPROXIMATELY 400 VERTEBRATE SPECIES WHEN I ASSESS
11 IMPACTS OF A DEVELOPMENT PROJECT. FINDING SOMEONE WITH
12 THE ABILITY AND THE FUNDING TO RESPOND QUICKLY TO AN AREA
13 OF CRITICAL INTEREST, LIKE SHEEP DISEASES, IS A GODSEND.
14 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE HAS WORKED NOT ONLY IN
15 IDAHO. THROUGH THE CONCURRENCE OF THEIR BOARD OF
16 DIRECTORS, THEY CAME AND HELPED US FIND OUT WHAT OUR
17 DISEASE PROBLEM WAS. THAT LED TO SUCCESSFUL NEGOTIATION
18 WITH THE FOREST SERVICE TO IMPLEMENT PROCEDURES THAT
19 RESULTED IN PROTECTION OF OUR BIGHORN HERDS. WE HAVE NOT
20 HAD A DIE -OFF SINCE THAT TIME.
21 I RECOMMENDED THE INSTITUTE'S SERVICES TO THE
22 STATE OF OREGON. THEY EMPLOYED THEIR SERVICES. AND I
23 KNOW THE INSTITUTE HAS WORKED WIDELY AND ELSEWHERE.
24 WHEN I RECEIVED THE QUESTIONNAIRE REGARDING
25 THIS PROJECT, I TOOK IT TO MY CHIEF AND ULTIMATELY TO THE
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20 1 DIRECTOR OF IDAHO FISH AND GAME. I DON'T GO LOOKING FOR
2 WORK. BELIEVE ME, THEY FIND ENOUGH TO KEEP ME BUSY. IN
3 MY BUREAU, WE REVIEW SIX TO 900 DOCUMENTS A YEAR REGARDING
4 ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIONS, AND I COMPLETE TECHNICAL REVIEWS ON
5 20 TO 30 DOCUMENTS THE SCOPE OF THIS E.I.R. UNDER
6 DISCUSSION TONIGHT.
7 I WAS GIVEN THE GO-AHEAD TO WORK ON THIS
8 PROJECT BECAUSE OF MY DIRECTOR'S APPRECIATION FOR WHAT THE
9 INSTITUTE HAS DONE FOR IDAHO AND FOR ITS RESOURCES.
10 IN MARCH, WHEN I FIRST RECEIVED THE
11 QUESTIONNAIRE ON THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT, I WAS HIGHLY
12 CRITICAL OF THE QUESTIONNAIRE. I DID NOT RECEIVE A
13 PACKAGE OF BACKGROUND INFORMATION WITH IT, AND THE
14 QUESTIONS WERE SUCH THAT THEY COULD BE ANSWERED IN ANY
15 NUMBER OF WAYS.
16 IN MY RESPONSE, I ELABORATE ON THAT, AND I
17 THINK I EVEN USE THE TERM ETHOLOGICAL SOPHISTRY THAT, YOU
18 KNOW, I THINK IT WAS BEHAVIORAL IN NATURE BUT NOT VERY
19 POINTED. IT WAS DIFFICULT TO MAKE GOOD RECOMMENDATIONS.
20 I RECEIVED A CALL BACK, WHEN MY COMMENTS WERE
21 SENT IN, FROM MR. JAMES BAHR, WHO WORKED ON THE E.I.R.
22 AND MS. ANDRIETTE ADAMS CONTACTED ME BY TELEPHONE. AND MY
23 COMMENTS ARE ON RECORD.
24 MS. ADAMS, I WOULD LIKE TO PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE
25 AT THIS POINT THAT THE E.I.R. WAS VERY WELL DONE. DESPITE
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1 MY CONCERNS, MR. BAHR DID AN EXCELLENT JOB IN OBTAINING
2 THE FACTS FROM A WIDE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE
3 NATION. BEING A RESEARCH SCIENTIST MYSELF, I REALIZE HOW
4 DIFFICULT A JOB THAT IS, AND I FIND THE BIOLOGICAL
5 RECOMMENDATIONS IN THE E.I.R. TO BE EXCELLENT. I LOOK AT
6 A LOT OF THESE DOCUMENTS, AND I COMMEND YOU HIGHLY.
7 THIS EVENING HAS BEEN INTERESTING. I GET
8 INVOLVED IN THESE KIND OF DISCUSSIONS REGULARLY, AND MUCH
9 OF THE DISCUSSION HAS BEEN WELL REASONED AND THOUGHTFUL.
10 THERE ARE COMPETING INTERESTS HERE, THERE'S NO DOUBT.
11 SOME OF THE PLAYERS HAVE SUGGESTED, THROUGH
12 INNUENDO OR COMMENTS OUT OF TEXT, THAT THERE'S -- YOU
13 KNOW, I WOULDN'T SAY CHARACTER ASSASSINATION EXACTLY, BUT
14 CERTAINLY THEY'RE TRYING TO COLOR THEIR CASE. THAT
15 HAPPENS. THAT IS A FACT OF LIFE. SOMETIMES IT'S
16 JUSTIFIED, SOMETIMES NOT. YOU'LL MAKE THAT DECISION.
17 THIS IS NOT AT ALL ATYPICAL. AFTER ALL, I COME
18 FROM THE LAND OF THE SPOTTED OWL, THE TIMBER WOLF, AND
19 ENDANGERED SALMON.
20 A GREAT DEAL HAS BEEN MADE TONIGHT REGARDING
21 BIGHORN HABITAT. I LIKE THE IDEA PRESENTED EARLIER.
22 BIGHORN HABITAT IS THE SHEEP'S ADDRESS. BELIEVE WHAT
23 YOU'VE HEARD. THAT IS A GOOD ANALOGY TO THE SITUATION.
24 UNFORTUNATELY, HOWEVER, THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE.
25 WITH REGARD TO THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE, THE ISSUE
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1 IS FAR SHARPER, AND YOU NEED TO KEEP THIS IN MIND: IS THE
2 LAND THAT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE IS USING SUITABLE FOR THE
3 PURPOSE OF PROVIDING AN AREA FOR HOLDING BIGHORN SHEEP FOR
4 RELEASE INTO THE WILD? I MEAN YOU'VE GOT A 30-ACRE PEN.
5 THAT IS THEIR ADDRESS. CAN THEY ACCOMPLISH THEIR MISSION?
6 OBVIOUSLY, THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA HAS SAID IT
7 IS. THEY'VE ISSUED THE PERMITS AND DESIGNATED THE BIGHORN
8 INSTITUTE A CARETAKER FOR PURPOSES OF REHABILITATING
9 BIGHORN SHEEP. FURTHERMORE, THE BUREAU OF LAND
10 MANAGEMENT, BY VIRTUE OF TRANSFER OF THE LAND, SAID IT IS.
11 I HAVE LOOKED AT THE SITE. I LOOKED AT THE DEVELOPMENT
12 SITE TODAY. IT IS, IN MY OPINION, AS A SCIENTIST TRAINED
13 IN ANIMAL BEHAVIOR.
14 THE HABITAT AND THE BUFFER ZONE ARE THINGS THAT
15 HAVE TO RELATE TO THE BIOLOGY OF THE ANIMAL. THAT'S NOT
16 LIKE A TARGET. YOU CAN'T SET A FIXED PERIMETER BECAUSE
17 THE TERRAIN PLAYS A SIGNIFICANT FEATURE. SO THE QUESTION
18 THEN BECOMES, IF THE LAND THAT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE HAS
19 IS SUITABLE TO ITS PURPOSE, WILL THE DEVELOPMENT THAT'S
20 BEING PROPOSED TONIGHT IMPACT THAT PURPOSE? VERY SIMPLE
21 QUESTION.
22 FOR AN ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, I REFER YOU
23 BACK TO THE CITY'S OWN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT. THE
24 PROPONENT OF THE PROJECT HAS MADE A MAJOR EFFORT IN
25 IDENTIFYING. HIS IMPACT REPORT IS WELL DONE. I CONCUR
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1 THAT IT'S WELL DONE. THERE IS ONLY ONE SLIGHT PROBLEM.
2 SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, FORGOT WHAT THE
3 RECOMMENDATIONS IN THE E.I.R. WERE.
4 IN A LETTER SENT TO MR. PHIL JOY -- I'LL QUOTE
5 FROM THAT LETTER -- DATED JUNE 26TH, 1991:
6 "MY PROFESSIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS
7 INCLUDE CREATION OF A BUFFER ZONE
8 BETWEEN THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE AND THE
9 DEVELOPMENT."
10 I CONCUR WITH THE CONSULTING BIOLOGIST'S
11 RECOMMENDATION IN THE E.I.R. AT PAGE 113, EXHIBIT 15, FOR
12 BIOLOGICAL OPEN SPACE. THE PROPOSED PROJECT BUFFER IS, I
13 FEEL, TOO SMALL TO ASSURE CONTINUED PRODUCTIVE USE OF THE
14 INSTITUTE'S FACILITIES.
15 SECONDLY, DEVELOPMENT OF A BARRIER. AGAIN, I
16 CONCUR WITH THE CONSULTING BIOLOGIST'S RECOMMENDATION 13
17 IN THE E.I.R., PAGES 117 TO 118. THE BARRIER WILL DO MUCH
18 TO MITIGATE SEVERAL POTENTIALLY SERIOUS PROBLEMS THAT ARE
19 VERY DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH IN ANY OTHER WAY, NOTABLY
20 DIRECT HARASSMENT FROM DOMESTIC CANUS -- THAT'S DOGS --
21 AND A SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IN POTENTIAL FOR ESTABLISHMENT
22 OF NEW DISEASE VECTOR PATHWAYS.
23 THIRD, METHODS TO REDUCE THE POTENTIALS FOR
24 STRESS. I CONCUR AGAIN WITH THE CONSULTING BIOLOGIST'S
25 RECOMMENDATIONS 14, 15, AND 16 IN THE E.Z.R., PAGES 118
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1 AND 119. MOST CRITICAL AMONG THESE ARE RECOMMENDATIONS 14
2 AND 16-D AND E. I DO NOT HAVE A COPY OF THAT DOCUMENT
3 WITH ME, SO THE REFERENCES ARE THERE FOR THE COUNCIL TO
4 REVIEW.
5 YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS I HEARD TONIGHT --
6 WHICH, AGAIN I'M FROM OUT OF TOWN, MAYBE I MISSED
7 SOMETHING -- IS THAT THE BUFFER RECOMMENDATIONS WERE
8 ORIGINATED BY MR. DE FORGE. GIVEN THAT THEY APPEAR IN THE
9 CITY'S OWN E.I.R. DOCUMENT, THAT WOULD BE AN INTERESTING
10 DEVELOPMENT.
11 I DO, AS I INDICATED, HAVE EXPERIENCE IN
12 ASSESSING ENVIRONMENTAL DOCUMENTS AND SOME KNOWLEDGE OF
13 ENVIRONMENTAL LAW. IT'S MY JOB TO ATTEMPT TO FIND WIN -WIN
14 SITUATIONS AS DEVELOPMENT PROPOSALS APPEAR. WIN -WIN
15 SITUATIONS DON'T ALWAYS MEAN EVERYONE GETS WHAT THEY WANT,
16 AND I'M SURE YOU PEOPLE ARE WELL AWARE OF THAT. YOU MAKE
17 DIFFICULT DECISIONS, AND YOU MAKE THEM WITH REGULARITY.
18 THE RECOMMENDATIONS IN THE E.I.R. SHOULD
19 PROVIDE FOR REASONABLE DEVELOPMENT WHILE PROVIDING
20 ESSENTIAL PROTECTIONS FOR BIOLOGICAL RESOURCES. THAT'S
21 THE BASIS ON WHICH THE MONEY WAS SPENT AND THE EFFORT WAS
22 CONDUCTED.
23 I THINK -- AND THIS IS OPINION AS A FORMER
24 SHEEP BIOLOGIST, ONE WHO DEALS IN SUCH MATTERS
25 REGULARLY -- THAT THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED IN MAKING THESE
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1 DECISIONS, YOURSELVES, SHOULD CONSIDER THIS E.I.R.
2 RECOMMENDATION AS MINIMUM.
3 THERE'S A COUPLE REASONS FOR THAT. I GET
4 INVOLVED IN RISK ANALYSIS. I DEAL WITH MATTERS SUCH AS-
5 ENDANGERED SPECIES WITH SOME REGULARITY. I FEAR THAT
6 FAILURE TO CONSIDER THESE RECOMMENDATIONS VERY, VERY
7 SERIOUSLY MAY RESULT OR CONTRIBUTE TO A FURTHER DECLINE IN
8 AN ALREADY DECLINING POPULATION.
9 IF THESE ANIMALS GET ON THE FEDERAL ENDANGERED
10 SPECIES LIST, THERE WILL BE A HIGH PROBABILITY THAT
11 FEDERAL OR STATE AGENCIES WILL IMPOSE VERY, VERY TIGHT
12 RESTRICTIONS ON WHAT CAN BE DONE IN ANY OCCUPIED OR ANY
13 POTENTIAL BIGHORN SHEEP HABITAT. IT BECOMES A MATTER OF
14 ASSESSING, FOR THE GOOD OF ALL PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE
15 VALLEY, WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE FUTURE OF THIS
16 COMMUNITY.
17 PALM DESERT, PALM SPRINGS, THE COACHELLA VALLEY
18 IS RENOWNED THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES AS A COMMUNITY
19 THAT IS ENVIRONMENTALLY SENSITIVE. IT HAS BIGHORN SHEEP
20 IN AREAS WHERE THE PUBLIC CAN SEE THEM, AND THOSE SHEEP
21 RESOURCES ARE VALUABLE.
22 BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WHILE I -- BETWEEN THE
23 AIRPLANE AND THE HOTEL TODAY, I SAW SEVEN BIGHORN SHEEP
24 NEAR THE HIGHWAY. YOU DON'T SEE THAT IN IDAHO. I SPENT
25 FOUR YEARS CHASING BIGHORN SHEEP, FOUR TO FIVE DAYS A
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1 WEEK, IN EXCESS OF 40 WEEKS A YEAR.
2 THERE WAS AN INDIVIDUAL WATCHING THOSE SHEEP,
3 AND, YOU KNOW, I STOPPED AND TALKED WITH HIM. HE WAS FROM
4 THIS COMMUNITY. I DON'T RECALL WHICH ONE IT WAS. HE TOLD ,
5 ME AND, NOT BEING FAMILIAR WITH THE SITE, I'M AFRAID MY
6 MEMORY FAILS ME.
7 BUT HE SAID, "ISN'T THIS GREAT?" HE SAYS,
8 "THESE BIGHORN SHEEP REALLY CONTRIBUTE TO LIVING HERE IN
9 THIS AREA."
10 I HOPE YOU CONSIDER THAT AS YOU MAKE YOUR
11 DECISION. I'LL BE HAPPY TO STAND FOR ANY QUESTIONS YOU
12 MAY HAVE.
13 COUNCILMAN WILSON: CAN I ASK A QUESTION, MR. MAYOR?
14 MAYOR SNYDER: SURE.
15 COUNCILMAN WILSON: DR. TOWEILL, WE APPRECIATE YOUR
16 COMING HERE FROM IDAHO, AND WE AGREE WITH MUCH OF WHAT YOU
17 SAY AS FAR AS THE NECESSITY TO PRESERVE THE OPERATION OF
18 THE BIGHORN SHEEP INSTITUTE.
19 ONE OF THE DILEMMAS THAT FACES US IS THAT --
20 AND I REALLY APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT YOU ARE FROM THE
21 DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME FROM THE STATE OF IDAHO
22 BECAUSE OUR DILEMMA IS THAT WE HAVE A BIOLOGICAL
23 CONSULTANT RECOMMENDING A FIGURE OF 600 TO 1125. WE HAVE
24 OUR OWN STATE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME, THAT IS THE
25 RESPONSIBLE AGENCY FOR THE BIGHORN SHEEP IN THIS AREA THAT
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1 CONTRACTS THROUGH A MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING WITH THE
2 BIGHORN INSTITUTE, RECOMMENDING A BUFFER OF 400 YARDS.
3 AND I GUESS WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR YOU TO -- FOR
4 HELP IN, IF YOU WERE IN OUR SPOT AND YOUR AGENCY, THE
5 DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME IN THE STATE OF IDAHO, WAS
6 RECOMMENDING A SPECIFIC BUFFER AND SOMEONE ELSE WAS
7 RECOMMENDING ANOTHER, WHERE SHOULD WE PUT OUR WEIGHT?
8 SHOULD WE RELY ON THE STATE AGENCY RESPONSIBLE OR SHOULD
9 WE GO WITH ANOTHER FIGURE? WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
10 DR. TOWEILL: THE BUFFER THAT WAS RECOMMENDED IN THE
11 CITY'S E.I.R. WAS RECOMMENDED ON THE BASIS OF A -- OF THE
12 INPUT FROM A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE, BASED ON THEIR
13 BACKGROUNDS AND EXPERIENCE WITH BIGHORN SHEEP, AND WITH
14 ABSOLUTELY NO POLITICAL STAKE IN THE OUTCOME.
15 COUNCILMAN WILSON: ARE YOU INSINUATING THAT THE
16 STATE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME MIGHT HAVE A POLITICAL
17 CONSIDERATION HERE?
18 DR. TOWEILL: I CERTAINLY DON'T IMPLY THAT. I KNOW
19 THAT SOMETIMES IT'S THE CASE WITH SOME STATES. WHETHER
20 IT'S THE CASE IN THIS STATE, I DON'T KNOW.
21 ALL I KNOW IS THAT, AS A BIOLOGIST, AS ONE THAT
22 CONTRIBUTED TOWARD THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE E.I.R., AS ONE
23 WHO HAS TO REVIEW THESE DOCUMENTS ROUTINELY, IF YOU'RE
24 LOOKING FOR THE BEST INFORMATION THAT YOU'RE MOST CERTAIN
25 COULD NOT HAVE BEEN TAINTED AT ALL BY POLITICAL
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1 CONSIDERATIONS, I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY THE DIRECTION TO
2 LOOK.
3 COUNCILMAN WILSON: HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN A SITUATION
4 WHERE A GROUP OF EXPERTS HAVE RECOMMENDED AGAINST YOUR
5 DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME'S RECOMMENDATION, AND HOW
6 STRONGLY DO YOU FEEL -- DO YOU LEAN TO GIVING IN TO THE
7 EXPERTS RATHER THAN STICKING WITH YOUR DEPARTMENT'S
8 RECOMMENDATION?
9 DR. TOWEILL: FORTUNATELY, I DON'T MAKE THOSE
10 DECISIONS. THOSE DECISIONS ARE MADE BY OUR DIRECTOR, WHO
11 IS A SECRETARY TO THE COMMISSION.
12 MY PERSONAL FEELINGS DEPEND ON THE ISSUE,
13 DEPEND ON THE QUALITY OF BIOLOGY INVOLVED. WE RARELY HAVE
14 THE PRIVILEGE OF HAVING THE KIND OF INPUT THAT YOU HAVE
15 ACHIEVED IN THIS ISSUE. IT IS, CLEARLY, A VERY VOLATILE
16 ISSUE. IT'S ONE THE CITY HAS SPENT CONSIDERABLE EXPENSE
17 IN GETTING THE BEST INFORMATION AVAILABLE. WITH THAT
18 INFORMATION IN FRONT OF YOU, I CAN MAKE NO OTHER
19 RECOMMENDATION.
20 COUNCILMAN WILSON: THANK YOU.
21 MR. ROBERTS: YOU'VE JUST HEARD FROM THREE
22 INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE DIFFERENT FIELDS OF EXPERTISE WITH
23 BIGHORN WILD SHEEP, AND IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, ONE
24 MORE TIME OF THAT GROUP, WE CAN BRING THEM UP, AND THE ONE
25 THAT REALLY HAS THE ANSWER IN THEIR EXPERTISE COULD,
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1 PERHAPS, HELP OUT. IF NOT, WE'LL GO ON TO THE NEXT
2 PERSON.
3 THE NEXT SPEAKER WE HAVE IS DICK MC CLUNG. HE
4 IS ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE AND
5 HAS BEEN SINCE THE INCEPTION OF THE INSTITUTE BACK IN THE
6 EARLY '80'S.
7 DICK.
8 MR. MC CLUNG: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
9 CITY COUNCIL, GUESTS.
10 I, LIKE MR. TURNER, HAVE BEEN IN THIS VALLEY
11 OVER 60 YEARS, AND MY GRANDMOTHER AND GRANDFATHER MET DOWN
12 HERE TOO, SO I FEEL LIKE I HAVE A BIG STAKE IN -- IN THE
13 SURVIVAL OF THIS ANIMAL, IF I CAN HELP AT ALL.
14 MY PERSONAL FEELINGS WERE KIND OF SUBDUED, BUT
15 TONIGHT IT BROUGHT BACK MEMORIES OF HOW THE DEVELOPER AND
16 HIS ATTORNEYS CAME IN WHEN THE MIRADA PROJECT WAS GOING
17 AND RIPPED OUR PEOPLE UP SOMETHING TERRIBLE.
18 AND I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU THAT THE PEOPLE THAT
19 ARE HERE THAT WORK AT THE INSTITUTE AND YOUR BOARD OF
20 DIRECTORS, FROM MR. FORD ON DOWN, ARE DEDICATED TO THIS
21 PROJECT. WE'RE 100 PERCENT BEHIND WHAT'S GOING ON.
22 WE FEEL THAT A BUFFER, AS IN -- THE ONE THE
23 ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STUDY RECOMMENDS IS THE ONE. THERE
24 IS NO ANIMOSITY WITH OUR BOARD PEOPLE. BUT IT REALLY
25 UPSETS ME TO SEE THIS MAN COME IN HERE AND TRY THIS CASE.
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1 HE TRIED TO DO THIS AT THE MIRADA, BUT THEY DIDN'T ALLOW
2 HIM. BUT HE GOT AWAY WITH IT TONIGHT. GOT ABOUT AN HOUR
3 AND A HALF OF TESTIMONY.
4 AND, YOU KNOW, JIM DE FORGE IS PROBABLY ONE OF
5 THE MOST DEDICATED PEOPLE I'VE EVER KNOWN IN MY LIFE. AND
6 I'VE WORN OUT A LOT OF BOOTS TOO. AND I WAS -- I'VE BEEN
7 TO A LOT OF MEETINGS WHERE THE BIGHORN COUNCIL COME. I'M
8 A SALESMAN. I'VE BEEN A SALESMAN ALL OF MY LIFE. BUT
9 I'VE WORKED HARD, AND I KNOW HOW HARD THESE PEOPLE WORK.
10 AND SOMETHING CAME UP THE OTHER DAY, AND I GOT
11 TO READING ABOUT THIS SO-CALLED, QUOTE, QUOTE, EXPERT THAT
12 THEY BROUGHT IN. AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE MAN, BUT I
13 JUST WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW THAT WE HAVE SOME INFORMATION
14 WE WANT TO PASS OUT TO YOU.
15 AND I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT MR. TURNER.
16 DR. TURNER APPEARED TONIGHT, AND YOU HEARD HIM. AND HE
17 CLAIMS IN THIS PACK -- THIS HERE. IT'S A DOCUMENT. I
18 WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO THIS VERY CAREFULLY, BECAUSE I'VE
19 HIKED IN THESE MOUNTAINS AND I'VE TRIED TO GET UP TO A
20 BIGHORN SHEEP, AND I'VE LAID DOWN FOR HOURS AND HOURS AND
21 HOURS.
22 BUT THIS MAN SAYS IN THIS REPORT -- AND I FEEL
23 THAT HE ENGAGED IN ONE OF THE MOST INHUMANE AND OUTLANDISH
24 EXPERIENCES. IT ALMOST SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING THAT THE
25 NAZIS DID. WHEN HE WENT INTO THE FIELD WHERE, RIGHT IN MY
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1 BACKYARD. AND HE SAYS HE DID, IN BRIEF, HE CUT THE FEMALE
2 ORGANS OUT OF BIGHORN SHEEP.
3 MAYOR SNYDER: I BELIEVE WE HAVE --
4 COUNCILMAN CRITES: MR. MC CLUNG.
5 MR. MC CLUNG: YES.
6 MAYOR SNYDER: -- WE HAVE A QUESTION OF YOU, SIR.
7 I BELIEVE WE HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU.
8 COUNCILMAN CRITES: PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE SAID IT
9 EARLIER. WHEN MR. ZEILENGA TESTIFIED THAT BECAUSE SOMEONE
10 ON ONE OR A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS HAD USED A CATTLE PROD AS
11 A SELF-DEFENSE MECHANISM, THAT WAS THE EQUIVALENT OF
12 PEOPLE ON A GOLF COURSE ON A CONTINUOUS BASIS, I THOUGHT
13 THAT WAS ABSOLUTE PHOOEY, AND I DO NOW. AND I THINK IT
14 WAS AN ATTEMPT AT A PERSONAL ATTACK.
15 AND MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE SAID SOMETHING AT THAT
16 TIME. I DIDN'T. BUT I THINK THIS IS A MANNER OF THAT,
17 AND I THINK ONE THING THAT PEOPLE PRIDE THEMSELVES ON IS
18 LITERALLY DEALING WITH THE ISSUES AT HAND. I'M VERY HAPPY
19 TO KNOW THAT -- THAT YOU CONSIDER DR. TURNER'S EXPERTISE
20 AND SOME OF HIS METHODS OF OPERATION TO BE INAPPROPRIATE,
21 AND A STATEMENT LIKE THAT IS APPROPRIATE.
22 BUT LIKE AN ARMS RACE, CHARACTER ASSASSINATION
23 HAS A WONDERFUL WAY OF BUILDING ON ITSELF, AND I DON'T
24 THINK THAT IT ADDS CREDIBILITY TO EITHER SIDE. AND
25 PERHAPS MR. ZEILENGA MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT TWICE ABOUT
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1 INSTITUTING THOSE KINDS OF COMMENTS TONIGHT, BUT I'M NOT
2 SURE THAT, AS A COUNCIL, WE NEED TO HEAR RESPONSE AFTER
3 RESPONSE.
4 MR. MC CLUNG: I'D JUST LIKE TO FINISH. NO ONE
5 INTERRUPTED THEM WHEN THEY TORE OUR PEOPLE APART, AND I
6 JUST WANT TO MAKE ONE STATEMENT THAT WILL TAKE ME TWO
7 MINUTES.
8 THIS MAN CLAIMS TO HAVE GONE IN AND SLEPT WITH
9 25 OR 30 BIGHORN SHEEP, FEMALES, CUT THEM OPEN, REMOVED
10 THE FEMALE ORGANS, SEWED THEM UP, AND LEFT THEM IN THE
11 WILD.
12 NOW, I HAVE REASON TO BELIEVE THAT HE DIDN'T DO
13 THAT. BUT I'M NOT A DOCTOR. BUT I TALKED TO SEVERAL
14 DOCTORS ABOUT THIS BEFORE, AND I'M JUST SAYING THAT --
15 THAT IT MEANS HE'S EITHER FALSIFYING DATA ABOUT BIGHORN
16 SHEEP OR HE HAS NO COMPASSION.
17 AND WHAT I JUST WOULD LIKE TO ASK IS, I WOULD
18 LIKE TO KNOW WHERE THE PICTURES AND THE SAMPLES OF THE
19 TISSUES ARE THAT HE REMOVED FROM THOSE 29 BIGHORN SHEEP
20 THAT HE, QUOTE, QUOTE, SLEPT WITH AND OPERATED ON THEM ON
21 A DAILY BASIS.
22 THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.
23 MR. ROBERTS: THREE MORE NAMES, GENTLEMEN -- LADIES
24 AND GENTLEMEN.
25 I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE BRAD HUDSON. BRAD
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1 IS THE ASSISTANT COUNTY REPRESENTATIVE ADMINISTRATOR,
2 COUNTY OF RIVERSIDE.
3 BRAD.
4 MR. HUDSON: GOOD EVENING.
5 BRAD HUDSON, COUNTY OF RIVERSIDE, 46-209 OASIS
6 IN INDIO.
7 IT'S ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO BE HERE TO TALK TO
8 YOU GENTLEMEN. ACTUALLY, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR THE
9 OPPORTUNITY TO BE HERE TONIGHT TO DISCUSS SOMETHING OTHER
10 THAN REDEVELOPMENT FOR A CHANGE. THIS MIGHT BE A LITTLE
11 EASIER, I DON'T KNOW.
12 I'M HERE PRIMARILY FOR THREE REASONS: NUMBER
13 ONE IS THE COUNTY, IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE BLM AND THE
14 INSTITUTE, WORKED TOGETHER TO SITE THE INSTITUTE WHERE IT
15 IS AND TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY COULD KEEP CONTRIBUTING TO
16 THE WORK THAT THEY ARE DOING.
17 ALSO, THE COUNTY HAS POLICIES, AS DOES THE
18 CITY, REGARDING SPECIES PRESERVATION, OPEN SPACE
19 PRESERVATION, HABITAT PRESERVATION, AND AGAINST
20 HILLSIDE -TYPE DEVELOPMENT.
21 THE THIRD REASON I'M HERE TONIGHT IS, WHILE
22 MR. HAYHOE'S WILSHIRE BOULEVARD SHOTGUN MENTIONED THAT
23 HE'S LITIGATED OR IS IN LITIGATION WITH THE INSTITUTE, HE
24 ALSO IS IN LITIGATION WITH THE COUNTY. SO WE FEEL OUR
25 RESPONSIBILITY TO COME FORWARD AND GIVE OUR SUPPORT, NOT
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1 ONLY TO THE INSTITUTE, BUT TO DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST
2 SOME OF THE THINGS THAT MR. HAYHOE HAS SAID ABOUT THE
3 COUNTY.
4 REGRETABLY, MY APPEARANCE TONIGHT IS IN
5 OPPOSITION TO THE PROJECT, AND PRIMARILY TO THE
6 ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT AND TO CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE
7 PROJECT THAT WE FEEL ARE INCONSISTENT WITH THE CITY'S
8 GENERAL PLAN.
9 WE'VE COMMENTED EXTENSIVELY, ORALLY AND IN
10 WRITING, ON MANY OCCASIONS BEFORE THE PLANNING COMMISSION,
11 LETTERS TO THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT. AND I DON'T WANT TO
12 REHASH A LOT OF THAT STUFF. AND I'M SURE YOU'VE READ IN
13 THE FILE, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO JUST TOUCH ON A COUPLE
14 ISSUES THAT WE FEEL ARE IMPORTANT TO THE COUNTY.
15 WITH REGARD TO THE BIOLOGICAL RESOURCE ISSUES,
16 WE CERTAINLY SUPPORT THE CONCLUSIONS OF THE CITY'S
17 CONSULTING BIOLOGIST REGARDING THE -- THE NEED FOR AND THE
18 SIZE OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL BUFFER. WE FEEL IT PROTECTS THE
19 INSTITUTE, IT PROTECTS THE WASH AND IT PROVIDES ESSENTIAL
20 OPEN SPACE AND HABITAT THAT WHILE, MAYBE NOT PRIME HABITAT
21 FOR BIGHORN OR DESERT TORTOISE, IT'S CERTAINLY HABITAT
22 THAT CERTAINLY COULD BE UTILIZED IN DROUGHT YEARS, AS IS
23 SPECIFIED IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT.
24 THE PROJECT PROPONENTS SEEM TO THINK THAT THE
25 IMPOSITION OF A BUFFER AS RECOMMENDED IN THE E.I.R. IS
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1 EXCESSIVE AND BURDENSOME. WE DISAGREE. WE'VE GOT A HUGE
2 PROJECT HERE, AND I THINK IT REQUIRES SOME PRETTY HUGE
3 MITIGATION.
4 QUITE FRANKLY, I WAS A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED THAT
5 THE E.I.R., IN MY OPINION, INADEQUATELY MITIGATED TRAFFIC
6 IMPACTS. WE HAVE A HUGE PROJECT RIGHT ON 74. THE COUNTY
7 IS ENGAGED, ALONG WITH THE CITY OF PALM DESERT AND THE
8 CITY OF RANCHO MIRAGE, PUTTING TOGETHER A NEW INTERCHANGE
9 AT MONTEREY AND I-10. AND THIS PROJECT WILL BE
10 CONTRIBUTING.
11 NOW, I SUPPOSE WE COULD ASSUME THAT MOST OF
12 THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO BE GOING THERE ARE GOING TO
13 COME FROM OVER THE HILL. I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE CASE.
14 I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO COME DOWN 10, GET OFF ON MONTEREY
15 AND DRIVE RIGHT UP TO IT. BUT THEY WON'T BE CONTRIBUTING.
16 ANYWAY, AGAIN, WE FEEL THAT THE BUFFER IS AN
17 APPROPRIATE MITIGATION CONCERN IN CONSIDERATION OF THE
18 IMPACTS INVOLVED.
19 THE PROPONENT ALSO TENDS TO MINIMIZE HIS -- THE
20 ENVIRONMENTAL IMPLICATIONS OF THE PROJECT BY ENGAGING IN A
21 LOT OF IRRELEVANT DISCUSSION CONCERNING PAST, FUTURE --
22 AND FUTURE LAND USES AND HOW THESE ALL SHOULD HAVE BEEN
23 CONSIDERED IN THE COUNTY'S ENVIRONMENTAL PROCESS. WELL,
24 IN OUR OPINION, THAT'S BASICALLY IRRELEVANT.
25 THEY ARGUED THAT THE INSTITUTE AND THE COUNTY
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1 KNEW THAT SOME OF THE ADJACENT PROPERTY WAS ZONED
2 RESIDENTIAL. CONSEQUENTLY, ANY COMPATIBILITIES OR
3 NEGATIVE IMPACTS ARE SELF-IMPOSED BY THE INSTITUTE AND/OR
4 THE COUNTY AND, THEREFORE, THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED TO
5 MITIGATE THEM.
6 AGAIN, WE DISAGREE. WE FEEL, UNDER THE
7 CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY ACT, THAT PUBLIC AGENCIES
8 ARE REQUIRED TO REVIEW A PROJECT IN TERMS OF THE EXISTING
9 CONDITIONS AT THE TIME THE DEVELOPMENT GOES IN. TO GO
10 BACK TO WHAT THE ZONING WAS ON THAT PIECE OF PROPERTY TEN,
11 15, 20 YEARS AGO, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. OR TO
12 TRY TO SPECULATE, "GEE, MIGHT THE CITY CHANGE THIS ZONING
13 THREE OR FOUR TIMES IN THE FUTURE?"
14 IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. WHAT'S THERE NOW IS
15 WHAT YOU EVALUATE. THAT'S WHAT THE COUNTY DID. WE
16 EVALUATED THE SITING FOR THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE IN TERMS OF
17 THE ADJACENT VACANT ALTA MIRA PROPERTY, AND WE FOUND --
18 AND, APPARENTLY, SO DID THE CITY STAFF MEMBERS WHO WROTE
19 TO US WITH TWO -WORD LETTERS, "NO COMMENT," AND ADJACENT
20 PROPERTY OWNERS WHO WROTE TO US WITH BASICALLY THE SAME,
21 "WE DON'T HAVE A COMMENT ON IT. IT SEEMS ALL RIGHT." AS
22 DID EVERYBODY.
23 AND SO I THINK TO SAY THAT, "WELL, GEE WHIZ.
24 WE DIDN'T COMMENT AT THAT TIME. NOW THAT WE WANT TO DO
25 SOMETHING AND IT'S GOING TO IMPACT YOU, WE THINK YOU
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1 SHOULD DO AN E.I.R."
2 THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT WORKS. WE EVALUATED OUR
3 PROJECT, THE INSTITUTE, THE EXISTING CONDITION OF THE
4 AREA -- PLANNING AREA AT THAT TIME. AND ALL WE'RE ASKING
5 NOW IS FOR MR. HAYHOE TO DO THE SAME THING. EVALUATE YOUR
6 PROJECT IN TERMS OF THE PLANNING AREA AS IT EXISTS NOW.
7 AND THAT INCLUDES THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE AND THE ACTIVITIES
8 THAT ARE CONDUCTED THERE.
9 AND, QUITE FRANKLY, I'M -- I'M A LITTLE
10 SURPRISED THAT THIS WHOLE THING HAS GONE THIS FAR. I KNOW
11 THE -- I KNOW ALL OF YOU COUNCILMEMBERS PRETTY WELL, MAYBE
12 TOO WELL. AND I KNOW THAT -- HOW ENVIRONMENTALLY
13 CONSCIOUS YOU ARE. AND I KNOW YOUR STAFF PRETTY WELL,
14 TOO, AND I KNOW THAT THEY'RE THE SAME WAY.
15 YOU HAVE VERY STRICT POLICIES IN YOUR GENERAL
16 PLAN AND ORDINANCES RELATIVE TO HILLSIDE DEVELOPMENT,
17 SPECIES PRESERVATION, HABITAT PRESERVATION, OPEN SPACE.
18 ALL THE ELEMENTS ARE IN PLACE THAT WOULD MAKE ME THINK
19 THAT THIS IS A PRETTY ENVIRONMENTALLY CONSCIOUS CITY. I
20 LIVE HERE, SO I HAVE AN ADDITIONAL INPUT INTO -- OR
21 KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THIS CITY IS ALL ABOUT.
22 AND SO I -- WHEN I VIEW THIS PROJECT, IT JUST
23 DOESN'T SEEM CONSISTENT WITH A LOT OF THE POLICIES AND
24 ORDINANCES AND, CERTAINLY, THE ..GENERAL PLAN OF THE CITY.
25 AND I WOULD HOPE THAT BEFORE YOU -- AND I'M SURE YOU HAVE,
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1 AND I HOPE YOUR STAFF HAVE -- YOU'VE REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT
2 WHAT THE CITY STANDS FOR AND THE REPUTATION THAT THE CITY
3 HAS IN CVAG AND ELSEWHERE AS A PRETTY ENVIRONMENTALLY
4 CONSCIOUS COMMUNITY WHO TENDS TO MATCH THE DESIRE FOR
5 DEVELOPMENT AND REVENUE WITH A CONCERN FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
6 ON THE OTHER HAND.
7 LASTLY, I'D JUST LIKE TO CLOSE WITH SOMETHING I
8 WAS THINKING ABOUT THE OTHER DAY. YOU KNOW, THE COUNTY
9 HAS POLICIES AND THE CITY HAS POLICIES AND THE STATE
10 RELATIVE TO ALL THESE ISSUES I'VE JUST GONE OVER A COUPLE
11 TIMES, THE SPECIES PRESERVATION, THE HABITAT. THE COUNTY
12 AND THE CITY ARE BOTH MEMBERS OF THE COACHELLA MOUNTAIN
13 CONSERVANCY. I JUST THOUGHT I'D THROW THAT IN.
14 BUT WE HAVE ALL THESE POLICIES GEARED TOWARD
15 THE ENVIRONMENT, YET THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE IS REALLY --
16 THE STATE IS NOT DOING ANY BIGHORN RESEARCH OR TRYING TO
17 SAVE THE BIGHORN OUT HERE. WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT DOING ANY.
18 AND TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THE CITY'S NOT DOING ANY, EITHER. SO
19 WHAT WE HAVE IS A NONPROFIT GROUP WHO, THROUGH
20 FUND-RAISING ACTIVITIES AND DONATIONS, IS BASICALLY
21 IMPLEMENTING THE POLICIES OF THE STATE AND THE COUNTY AND
22 THE CITY HAVE SET FOR THEMSELVES.
23 AND I WAS JUST THINKING THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN --
24 A COUPLE YEARS AGO I REMEMBER A GUY, HE WAS RUNNING FOR
25 PUBLIC OFFICE SOMEPLACE, AND HE MENTIONED 1,000 POINTS OF
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1 LIGHT. AND AT THAT TIME I THOUGHT, "WELL, THAT'S KIND OF
2 GOOFY, 1,000 POINTS OF LIGHT."
3 BUT WHEN I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS THE OTHER
4 DAY AND WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY HERE TODAY, THAT HIT ME.
5 "GEE, WE'VE GOT ONE HERE."
6 I THINK THIS WAS WHAT THAT MAN WAS TALKING
7 ABOUT. A GROUP WHO HAS PUBLIC POLICY AND IMPLEMENTATION
8 OF PUBLIC POLICY WITHOUT COMING BEFORE YOU EVERY YEAR
9 ASKING FOR A BUNCH OF MONEY. YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAVE
10 THAT LIGHT. THIS IS OUR LIGHT IN THE COACHELLA VALLEY
11 RIGHT HERE.
12 AND I THINK IT OUGHT TO BE NURTURED AND
13 DEVELOPED, AND WE OUGHT TO WORK WITH IT TO, YOU KNOW, MAKE
14 SURE THAT THEY CONTINUE TO DO THE THINGS THAT THEY DO SO
15 WELL.
16 SO WITH THAT, I WOULD JUST REQUEST THAT THE
17 CITY FOLLOW ITS OWN ORDINANCES AND GENERAL PLAN, FOLLOW
18 THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE CONSULTING BIOLOGIST, AND
19 INCLUDE THE BUFFER AND THE OTHER MITIGATION MEASURES THAT
20 ARE SPECIFIED IN THE E.I.R.
21 WITH THAT, I THANK YOU. ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.
22 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
23 MR. ROBERTS: GETTING CLOSER.
24 THE NEXT SPEAKER IS JOEL REYNOLDS OF THE
25 NATURAL RESOURCES DEFENSE COUNCIL. AND JOEL IS NOT HERE
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1 TO TALK ABOUT THE GNAT CATCHER.
2 SO WITH THAT, JOEL, YOU'RE ON.
3 MR. REYNOLDS: THANK YOU.
4 GOOD EVENING. I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO
5 APPEAR BEFORE YOU TONIGHT.
6 MY NAME IS JOEL REYNOLDS. I'M A SENIOR
7 ATTORNEY WITH THE NATURAL RESOURCES DEFENSE COUNCIL,
8 LOS ANGELES OFFICE.
9 NRDC HAS HAD A DIRECT INVOLVEMENT IN ENDANGERED
10 SPECIES ISSUES AND LAND USE ISSUES FOR 20 YEARS, AND I'M
11 HERE TONIGHT TO REITERATE BRIEFLY OUR OPPOSITION TO THE
12 ALTA MIRA PROJECT AS CURRENTLY PROPOSED.
13 WE PREVIOUSLY SUBMITTED COMMENTS, BOTH TO THIS
14 COUNCIL AND TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION IN SUPPORT OF THE
15 INSTITUTE'S PROPOSED BUFFER. WE DID SO BECAUSE WE
16 STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT THE PENINSULAR BIGHORN SHEEP IS AN
17 INVALUABLE AND IRREPLACEABLE NATURAL RESOURCE OF PALM
18 DESERT AND ALL OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.
19 AT THE SAME TIME IT IS CLEARLY ENDANGERED. THE
20 NUMBERS IN THE WILD ARE NOW BELOW 400 AND DROPPING. THE
21 NUMBERS IN THE SANTA ROSAS ARE BELOW 125 AND DROPPING.
22 THIS IS A SPECIES THAT TRULY DESERVES AND WILL RECEIVE, I
23 BELIEVE, ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT PROTECTION. YET THIS IS A
24 SPECIES THAT IS DIRECTLY THREATENED BY THE ALTA MIRA
25 PROJECT.
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6 1 OUR MOST RECENT COMMENTS ATTEMPTED TO APPRISE
2 THE COUNCIL OF A RANGE OF FEDERAL AND STATE LAWS THAT ARE
3 OR MAY BE IMPLICATED BY THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT OR THE ALTA
4 MIRA PROJECT WITHOUT AN ADEQUATE BUFFER. I WILL NOT
5 REPEAT THAT THIS EVENING.
6 SUFFICE IT TO SAY THAT, AS APPROVED BY THE
7 PLANNING COMMISSION, WE BELIEVE THE PROJECT THREATENS, NOT
8 ONLY THE PENINSULAR BIGHORN SHEEP, BUT THE ONE FACILITY
9 THAT HAS A DEMONSTRATED RECORD OF SUCCESS IN PRESERVING
10 THE SPECIES, THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE, A DEMONSTRATED RECORD
11 OF SUCCESS IN REVERSING THE BIGHORN'S UNDENIABLE TREND OF
12 DECLINE. AND THIS IS THE WORK OF JIM DE FORGE.
13 AND I HAVE TO INSERT ONE COMMENT HERE. I HEARD
14 THE TERM "DE FORGE -ISM" EARLIER THIS EVENING, WHICH
15 COUNSEL FOR MR. HAYHOE USED DISPARAGINGLY TO GET A CHEAP
16 LAUGH AT SOMEBODY ELSE'S EXPENSE. WHEN I HEAR THAT TERM,
17 WHAT I THINK OF IS JIM DE FORGE'S EXTRAORDINARY WORK TO
18 PRESERVE THE WILDLIFE HERITAGE OF THIS REGION, AND HE DOES
19 THAT EVERY DAY.
20 WHAT IS PARTICULARLY REMARKABLE IN THIS CASE, I
21 THINK, IS THAT THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT THREATENS THESE
22 RESOURCES UNNECESSARILY. UNNECESSARILY BECAUSE FEASIBLE
23 MITIGATION EXISTS, MITIGATION THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH FULL
24 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, WITH THE LEGITIMATE INTERESTS OF
25 THE DEVELOPER, AND WITH THE OPERATING REQUIREMENTS OF THE
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1 INSTITUTE.
2 THAT MITIGATION IS A 600- TO 1125-YARD BUFFER
3 RECOMMENDED BY THE CITY'S OWN CONSULTING BIOLOGISTS.
4 ABSENT A CLEAR EVIDENTIARY SHOWING OF INFEASIBILITY, FOR
5 WHATEVER REASON, THE CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY ACT
6 REQUIRES THAT THE MITIGATION BE INCORPORATED INTO THE
7 PROJECT. NO SUCH EVIDENTIARY SHOWING HAS YET BEEN MADE.
8 MR. MAYOR AND MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL, WE URGE
9 YOU TO REQUIRE THIS MITIGATION AND TO REJECT ANY VERSION
10 OF THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT THAT FAILS TO DO SO. THE FATE OF
11 THE BIGHORN AND THE FATE OF THE INSTITUTE'S WORK ON THEIR
12 BEHALF HANG IN THE BALANCE.
13 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
14 MR. ROBERTS: I'D LIKE TO NOW CALL JIM GEOCARIS, WHO
15 IS OUR LEGAL COUNSEL FOR THE FIRM OF SIEMON, LARSEN AND
16 MARSH.
17 JIM.
18 MR. GEOCARIS: GOOD LATE EVENING, LADY AND GENTLEMEN.
19 I'M HERE TONIGHT AS A FAIRLY NEW LAWYER FOR THE
20 INSTITUTE. I HAVE SUBMITTED EXTENSIVE COMMENTS. I JUST
21 WANT TO GET TO A FEW OF THOSE AND HIGHLIGHT THEM AND SAY A
22 LITTLE -- JUST A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME OF WHAT WAS SAID
23 TONIGHT BY MY OPPOSITE MEMBER AND -- AND NOT TAKE TOO MUCH
24 TIME.
25 I HAVE, LIKE MR. BREAK -- WELL, NOT AS
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1 INTENSIVE CEQA EXPERIENCE. IT GOES BACK A LITTLE FURTHER.
2 IT GOES BACK ABOUT 15 YEARS, TO THE CENTURY FREEWAY. AND
3 I LIKE THAT EXAMPLE, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE I WAS WORKING
4 WITH -- I DIDN'T STOP IT ON MY OWN, I WAS A LAWYER. BUT
5 THE PEOPLE I WAS WORKING WITH -- AND I HAVE SINCE DONE
6 MANY THINGS WITH ENVIRONMENTAL LAW -- FIRST STOPPED IT,
7 BUT THEN CAME TO US WITH A VERY PRODUCTIVE COMPROMISE.
8 SOME OF YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH IT. THE MASS TRANSIT WENT
9 DOWN THE CENTER, AND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF
10 REPLACEMENT HOUSING WENT INTO THE FREEWAYS BEING BUILT.
11 SO THESE THINGS CAN WORK OUT.
12 I THEN DID OTHER CEQA AND E.I.S. WORK ON
13 NUCLEAR PLANTS AND HIGHWAYS. I HAD PROBABLY THE STRANGEST
14 E.I.S. WORK OF ALL, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO APPLY THE
15 N.E.P.A., NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY ACT, TO THE M.X.
16 BASING SYSTEM THAT WAS GOING TO TAKE UP HALF OF UTAH AND
17 NEVADA WHEN I WAS IN THE PENTAGON WITH SECRETARY BROWN.
18 AND THEN I WAS IN CHICAGO ANY IN THE '80'S, BUT
19 SINCE COMING BACK HERE, I'VE DONE HALF A DOZEN CEQA
20 MATTERS ALREADY.
21 ONE THING -- I WAS IN YOUR PLACE ONCE, SO I WAS
22 ON -- DID YOU EVER HEAR OF THE 1992 CHICAGO WORLD'S FAIR?
23 WELL, I HAD -- I WAS IN AN AUTHORITY SEAT, AND I WAS THE
24 CHAIR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMITTEE AND WAS IN THE MIDDLE
25 OF WRITING THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT THERE
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1 BECAUSE WE WERE UNDER CONGRESS DEPARTMENT JURISDICTION.
2 WE GOT ALL THE POWERS THAT BE ON OUR SIDE,
3 CHICAGO TRIBUNE, GOVERNOR THOMAS AND ALL THAT. IT WOULD
4 HAVE BEEN A WONDERFUL THING. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN 100 YEARS
5 SINCE THE COLUMBIAN EXPOSITION. BUT WHAT STOPPED US IS,
6 THE ORIGINAL SPONSORS WERE THE CORPORATE GUYS, BEFORE
7 THERE WAS A PUBLIC AUTHORITY, WANTED TO FILL IN A LOT OF
8 LAKE MICHIGAN.
9 AND THAT PROBLEM, WHILE I TRIED TO PARE IT BACK
10 AND MITIGATE IT, PLAGUED US AND PLAGUED US. SO I
11 APPRECIATE HOW A DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEM CAN
12 PLAGUE AN OTHERWISE GOOD PROJECT. AND FOR PEOPLE LIKE
13 YOU, IN A TOUGH POSITION, I APPRECIATE YOUR POSITION.
14 ON TO SOME LEGAL POINTS. THE LAND USE HISTORY
15 HERE, I'LL SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT. IN TERMS OF LAND USE
16 IMPACTS, THE ZONING IS IRRELEVANT. WE'LL STAND BY THAT
17 POSITION. WE'VE CITED THE CASE LAW.
18 I THINK WHEN YOU GET INTO -- I THINK YOU'RE
19 LEARNING CEQA NOW. WHEN YOU GET INTO THE MITIGATION, THE
20 FEASIBILITY SIDE, THEN LEGAL AND SOCIAL ISSUES ARE
21 APPROPRIATE TO CONSIDER. BUT IN TERMS OF CONSIDERING
22 WHETHER THERE'S AN IMPACT OR NOT, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S
23 THE WAY YOUR E.I.R. IS DRAFTED, AND THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE
24 STUCK WITH UNLESS YOU RECIRCULATE IT.
25 BUT GOING INTO THE SETTING, IN 1989, WHAT WAS
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1 THERE WHEN THE INSTITUTE WAS -- AT THAT TIME BEEN THERE
2 FOR FIVE YEARS UNDER A BLM LEASE, WAS PURCHASING, I THINK
3 WE CLOSED IN THE SPRINGTIME. AND THEN, OF COURSE, THEY
4 HAD TO -- WELL, WE HEAR A RUSH ON AN EXPEDITED BASIS. BUT
5 WE HAD TO GET OUR ZONING CHANGE, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE
6 BLM PROTECTION. THE BLM LEASE THAT WAS IN PLACE PREEMPTED
7 LOCAL ZONING, AND NOW THAT WE WERE OUT FROM UNDER THAT, WE
8 HAD TO GO GET THE RIGHT LOCAL ZONING.
9 WELL, THERE WAS LAND VACANT ON BOTH SIDES OF
10 US. WESTINGHOUSE WASN'T THERE YET. REMEMBER THE SLIDE
11 LOOKING DOWN ON ALL THE VACANT LAND, THE NORTHERLY PORTION
12 IN THE ALTA MIRA PROPERTY, THE NORTHERLY PORTION, GENTLY
13 SLOPING UP, THE SOUTHERLY PORTION IN THE WASH AND THE
14 FOOTHILLS, FOOTHILL TOES IN THERE.
15 THE INSTITUTE THOUGHT THAT THERE WAS SOME
16 OVERALL PLAN FOR THIS AREA -- I BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS A
17 PREVIOUS MAJOR INSTITUTIONAL ELEMENT THAT WE BELIEVED HAD
18 THE LAND -- AND THAT PLAN INCLUDED SIGNIFICANT OPEN SPACE.
19 WELL, YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD A -- I'M NOT GOING TO
20 GIVE A NOTEBOOK. I'M JUST GOING TO GIVE YOU A FEW THINGS.
21 BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S VERY INTERESTING FROM THIS
22 LAWSUIT THAT WAS FILED ON JANUARY 4TH, 1990, IS
23 MR. HAYHOE'S OWN LANGUAGE, WHERE HE SAYS:
24 "VENTURE'S LANDS" --
25 THAT'S NOW CALLED ALTA MIRA --
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1 "IS PART OF A LARGER AREA
2 WITHIN PALM DESERT SPECIFICALLY
3 PLANNED BY THAT CITY FOR 13 ACRES
4 OF HOTEL, 1,000 SINGLE-FAMILY
5 DWELLINGS, AND 350 YARDS OF OPEN
6 SPACE."
7 THIS -- THE ENTIRE COMPLAINT IS ON FILE. YOUR
8 COUNSEL CAN CHECK THAT, INDIO CASE NO. 59511. I'VE
9 EXCERPTED THE COVER PAGE; TWO PAGES WITH THAT PARAGRAPH; A
10 SIGNATURE BY MARVIN BURNS, WHO, WHEN YOU SIGN A PLEADING,
11 IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE IN GOOD FAITH THAT YOU BELIEVE IT'S
12 TRUE; AND A VERIFICATION OF JAMES HAYHOE, WHERE HE SWEARS
13 THAT, "THE MATTERS STATED IN THE FOREGOING DOCUMENTS ARE
14 TRUE, OF MY KNOWLEDGE."
15 NOW, I HAD PUT IN ALL BUT THE SIGNATURE PAGE
16 AND MY COMMENTS, BECAUSE I DIDN'T -- WE WERE SERVED WITH A
17 VERIFICATION WHICH HAYHOE HAD NOT SIGNED. NOW, I WENT TO
18 THE COURT FILE, AND I HAVE THAT SIGNATURE PAGE. I'D JUST
19 LIKE TO GIVE IT TO THE COURT REPORTER SO THAT IT CAN BE --
20 OVER HERE, FOR THE RECORD? I'LL GIVE YOU SEVERAL COPIES.
21 SO HE BELIEVED THAT HE WOULD HAVE TO DEAL WITH
22 SOME OPEN SPACE AT THE TIME HE BOUGHT IT, JANUARY 4TH,
23 1990. NOW HE'S FILED ADDITIONAL VERSIONS OF THIS
24 STRATEGIC LAWSUIT AGAINST PUBLIC PARTICIPATION, WHERE HE'S
25 ASKING TO ENJOIN ANYBODY AFFILIATED WITH THE INSTITUTE
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182
1 FROM SPEAKING OUT ON THE BUFFER ISSUE, FROM PRESIDENT FORD
2 ON DOWN. AND RECENTLY, HE AMENDED IT, EARLIER THIS MONTH,
3 FOR $10 MILLION IN DAMAGES, WHICH WOULD OBVIOUSLY WIPE OUT
4 THE INSTITUTE.
5 MORE BROADLY, WE HAVE THE CONCEPT OF DUE
6 DILIGENCE. DUE DILIGENCE, WHICH ALL US LAWYERS,
7 ENVIRONMENTAL CONSULTING FIRMS WHO WE'VE WORKED FOR, WE
8 ALL KNOW WELL. WHAT IT MEANS IS, WHEN YOU'RE A LARGE
9 DEVELOPER LIKE MR. HAYHOE, YOU DO LARGE DEVELOPMENTS, YOU
10 HAVE THE STAFF AND CONSULTANTS, YOU CHECK THINGS OUT. YOU
11 DO THINGS LIKE ASKING THE SELLER OF THE PROPERTY FOR
12 GOVERNMENT NOTICES IN YOUR CONTRACT, SOMETHING HE DIDN'T
13 DO.
14 SILVER SPUR GOT A NOTICE OF OUR RIVERSIDE
15 COUNTY PROCEEDING. HE HAD NOTHING IN HIS CONTRACT TO
16 REQUIRE SILVER SPUR TO HAND THAT OVER. MOST LAWYERS WILL
17 PUT THAT IN AS PART OF DUE DILIGENCE. YOU CHECK THE
18 RECORDS FOR THESE KINDS OF THINGS AND YOU CHECK THE
19 ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS APPLICABLE TO YOUR PROPERTY.
20 YOU KNOW, LAND USE ISN'T JUST ZONING ANYMORE.
21 I KNOW MR. CRITES APPRECIATES THAT FROM ALL THIS AREA OF
22 PLANNING HE'S DOING WITH THE BLM. THERE'S A STATE OVERLAY
23 AND THERE'S A FEDERAL OVERLAY.
24 WELL, IN 1989, COMING AND LOOKING AT A PROPERTY
25 WITH A WASH; WITH THE SHEEP UP THERE; WITH SOME BIRDS IN
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8 1 THE WASH; THE ENDANGERED SPECIES -- ON THE FEDERAL
2 LEVEL -- ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT ENACTED IN '73;
3 SECTION 404, WATERS OF THE UNITED STATES ACT IN 1972, WITH
4 REGULATIONS CALLING FOR A PUBLIC INTEREST REVIEW, WHICH
5 MR. HAYHOE WILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH, WHERE ALTERNATIVES AND
6 ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY WILL HAVE TO BE REVISITED BY THE
7 CORPS OF ENGINEERS, BY FISH AND WILDLIFE, AND BY
8 U.S.C.P.A. THE CURRENT VERSION OF THOSE REGULATIONS IS
9 1986. I WASN'T ABLE TO CHECK IF THEY WENT EARLIER, BUT
10 CERTAINLY 1986. THERE'S A FLOOD PLAIN EXECUTIVE ORDER
11 WHICH ALSO PUTS A FEDERAL REGULATION ON SOME ACREAGE OUT
12 THERE, 1979.
13 STATE: STREAM BED ALTERATION, 1976; ENDANGERED
14 SPECIES ACT, 1970; FULLY PROTECTED MAMMALS, NINE IN THE
15 STATE, INCLUDING THE SHEEP -- NO TAKE, NO TAKE AT ALL,
16 1970; BIGHORN SHEEP POLICY ACT, A GENERAL POLICY THAT ALL
17 UNITS OF GOVERNMENT SHOULD PRESERVE THE SHEEP, 1986. AND,
18 OF COURSE, WHY WE'RE HERE, CEQA, CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL
19 QUALITY ACT, OF 1970.
20 SO ANY DEVELOPER WITH EXPERT ADVISERS LOOKING
21 AT THAT LAND TO ACQUIRE IT, LIKE WESTINGHOUSE OR LIKE
22 MR. HAYHOE, IN 1989, WOULD KNOW HE MAY HAVE SOME PROBLEMS
23 DEVELOPING, NOT IN THE NORTHERLY PART, BUT ONCE YOU GET
24 CLOSE TO THAT WASH, UP IN THE FOOTHILL TOES. THERE WAS NO
25 CLEAR EXPECTATION THAT HE COULD HAVE DEVELOPED ALL THAT.
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1 THERE NEVER REALLY WAS, FOR A SOPHISTICATED DEVELOPER.
2 THIS IS EXACTLY THE AREA THAT YOUR CONSULTANTS AND THE
3 FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE URGE TO BE PRESERVED WITH A 600-
4 TO 1125-YARD BUFFER.
5 NOW, FEASIBLE ALTERNATIVES. MR. REYNOLDS SO
6 ELOQUENTLY SPOKE TO THAT. I WILL JUST POINT OUT A COUPLE
7 OF THE DOCUMENTS FROM THE DEVELOPER.
8 THE DEVELOPER NEVER LOOKED WITH ANY KIND OF
9 SPECIFIC EVIDENCE AT THE 116- OR 118-ACRE BIOLOGICAL
10 CONSULTANT'S ALTERNATIVE. WHAT HE DID IS SAID, "WELL, YOU
11 KNOW, THE INSTITUTE DOESN'T WANT THAT. THEY WANT 135
12 ACRES, SO LET'S LOOK AT THAT."
13 NOW, THEY FOUND, IN THEIR OWN LETTER -- THIS IS
14 135 ACRES, NOW. THEIR OWN LETTER OF APRIL 11TH, 1991 IN
15 THE E.I.R. WITH NO INCREASE IN DENSITY AND NO REDUCTION OF
16 THE GOLF COURSE SIZE, IS THEY WILL STILL HAVE A 3 PERCENT
17 POSITIVE RETURN. AND THAT'S BEFORE FINANCING. AND THAT'S
18 NOT ENOUGH. I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT FINANCING THAT 3 PERCENT
19 IS FAR SHORT, BUT IT'S STILL A LITTLE BIT POSITIVE.
20 THEN, AGAIN, THE 135-ACRE BUFFER. THEN THEIR
21 CONSULTANT LLOYD AND TOUCHE, SAID IN A LETTER DATED APRIL
22 30TH, 1991, COMING TO THE CITY IN A PACKET OF COMMENTS ON
23 JUNE 27TH, AGAIN, NO INCREASE IN DENSITY, NO REDUCTION IN
24 GOLF COURSE, 135,-ACRE BUFFER, A 7 PERCENT RETURN. LLOYD
25 AND TOUCHE THINKS IT'S A LITTLE HIGHER.
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1 NOW, GO DOWN TO 116 ACRES OR SO AND MAYBE YOU
2 SHAVE THE GOLF COURSE TEN ACRES. YOU GET 30 MORE ACRES IN
3 THERE, WHERE A LOT OF PROFIT IS GOING TO DROP TO THE
4 BOTTOM LINE BECAUSE YOU'VE ALREADY PAID FOR THE GOLF
5 COURSE AND YOU PAID FOR YOUR BASE INFRASTRUCTURE. AND YOU
6 INCREASE THE DENSITY SOME, MAYBE YOU CAN GET THAT
7 20 PERCENT THAT YOU NEED TO FINANCE, BUT THERE'S NO DETAIL
8 IN THE E.I.R. ON THAT BECAUSE IT WASN'T ANALYZED.
9 I SEE, NOW, IN THE MITIGATION MEASURES, THERE'S
10 A CONCLUSIONARY STATEMENT, BUT CONCLUSIONARY STATEMENTS
11 ARE NOT ENOUGH. THERE'S NO FIGURES THAT THERE'S SOME
12 7 PERCENT, THERE'S NO 12 PERCENT, NO 15 PERCENT.
13 NOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANALYZE ALL
14 ALTERNATIVES, BUT WHEN THE STRAW MAN ALTERNATIVE POINTS TO
15 A REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE, I SUBMIT THAT THE CITY, NOT THE
16 DEVELOPER, OUGHT TO LOOK AT IT.
17 WE'VE POINTED TO A NUMBER OF OTHER ISSUES JUST
18 BRIEFLY, THE MANDATORY FINDINGS OF SIGNIFICANCE, WHICH I
19 THINK HAVE TO APPLY TO THE GENERAL HABITAT. YOUR
20 CONSULTANTS NOW SEEM TO BE HEDGING YOU TOWARD A FINDING OF
21 SIGNIFICANCE ON THE BIGHORN SHEEP, WHICH WE THINK IS
22 NECESSARY.
23 YOU'VE GOT AIR QUALITY PROBLEMS WHICH ARE STILL
24 NOT ADDRESSED, CUMULATIVE AIR QUALITY PROBLEMS. THIS
25 IS -- AND CUMULATIVE UNDERGROUND WATER POLLUTION PROBLEMS.
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1 THESE PROBLEMS AND THE INADEQUATE ANALYSIS IN THE E.I.R.
2 UP IN THE CENTRAL VALLEY ARE INADEQUATE IN THE SAME WAY AS
3 YOURS IS INADEQUATE. ONE OF THE COURTS OF APPEAL SETTLED
4 A PROJECT UP IN THAT AREA LAST YEAR. BIGGEST CEQA CASE --
5 ONE OF THE BIGGEST CEQA CASES OF THE YEAR. MR. BREAK'S
6 FIRM WAS ON THE LOSING SIDE ON THAT.
7 THERE'S AN INADEQUATE AND MISLEADING PROJECT
8 DESCRIPTION BECAUSE THE REGULATORY SCHEME IN THE STATE AND
9 FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ARE SO INADEQUATELY DESCRIBED. THERE'S
10 GENERAL PLAN PROBLEMS, AS THE COUNTY REPRESENTATIVE
11 ALLUDED TO.
12 NOW, I JUST WANT TO GO -- I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE
13 YOU MY COUNTERBRIEF TO MR. ZEILENGA, BUT I DO HAVE TO SAY
14 A FEW THINGS. OBVIOUSLY, THE -- THE PRESENTATION WAS
15 ONE-SIDED. ON THE EVIDENCE OF THIS WALK IN THE WOODS --
16 AS I CALL IT, BECAUSE I HAVE SOME ARMS CONTROL
17 BACKGROUND -- BACK ON JUNE 7, YOU KNOW, MR. HAYHOE SAYS
18 ONE THING, DE FORGE DOES SAY -- HE SAID, "HEY, I DON'T
19 THINK THERE SHOULD BE DEVELOPMENT HERE." HE DIDN'T USE
20 THE WORD "BUFFER."
21 BUT WHAT MR. HAYHOE -- WHAT THEY DON'T TELL
22 YOU -- WHAT MR. ZEILENGA DOESN'T TELL YOU IS THAT HE SENT
23 THEM A SHORT LETTER, "THANKS FOR THE MEETING. WE'LL KEEP
24 YOU INFORMED." NEVER KEPT US INFORMED.
25 ON THIS WHOLE LAWSUIT THING, YOU KNOW, THEY
1
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1 TALK ABOUT THE PRODS, AND THERE'S OTHER THINGS THERE THAT
2 THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME -- AND I WOULD LIKE THE
3 OPPORTUNITY TO GET A FAX OF THIS AND PUT IT IN THE RECORD.
4 THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME, WHO CAN WALK INTO THE
5 INSTITUTE AT ANY TIME, DID AN ANALYSIS OF ALL THESE
6 THINGS, OF THE PRODS AND THE OTHER THINGS HE MENTIONED.
7 AND IN APRIL, THEY FILED, WITH THE DECISION TO
8 RENEW THE INSTITUTE'S M.O.U., BASICALLY, SAID THEY'RE NOT
9 A PROBLEM. THEY REVIEWED THEM ALL. THEY REVIEWED A
10 NUMBER OF THINGS THAT THE DEVELOPER RAISED, AND THEY SAID
11 THERE'S NOT A PROBLEM.
12 OF COURSE, MR. ZEILENGA -- HE WAS THERE. HE
13 WAS AT ALL THE HEARINGS. HE HAS THE ADMINISTRATIVE
14 RECORD, BUT HE DIDN'T TELL YOU ABOUT THAT. I THINK
15 BECAUSE THAT IS A DEPARTMENT OFFISH AND GAME DOCUMENT,
16 I'D LIKE TO GET THAT ON THE RECORD TOMORROW, IF THAT'S ALL
17 RIGHT. AND I THINK THAT'S ENOUGH OF THAT.
18 ONE MORE ISSUE, AND -- ONE MORE MINUTE, AND
19 THAT'S THE RANGE OF EXPERT OPINION. NOW, I THINK, YOU
20 KNOW, THE LAW IS TRUE. WHEN YOU HAVE A RANGE OF EXPERT
21 OPINION, THEY ALL SHOULD BE CONSIDERED. I DON'T THINK
22 WE'VE SAID ANYTHING DIFFERENT. I THINK THE WEIGHT CLEARLY
23 COMES OUT ON OUR SIDE.
24 BUT THEN YOU MUST WEIGH -- AND WHEN YOU WEIGH
25 EXPERT OPINION, I MEAN JURIES DO THIS ACROSS THE UNITED
MINUTES
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188
1 STATES. YOU LOOK INTO ASPECTS OF, ARE THEY PAID, WHO ARE
2 THEY PAID BY, DO THEY MAKE THEIR LIVING GETTING PAID BY
3 THE DEVELOPER, OR DO THEY MAKE THEIR LIVING AT A
4 UNIVERSITY? JURIES ARE SUSPICIOUS OF FULL-TIME PAID
5 DEVELOPER'S EXPERTS, A LOT MORE SUSPICIOUS THAN THEY ARE
6 OF EXPERTS WHO WORK FOR THE STATE OR WORK FOR A UNIVERSITY
7 AND HAVE OTHER INCOME.
8 YOU KNOW, MR. TURNER -- THE REASON WE PUT THAT
9 UP THERE IS THAT -- I THINK WHEN YOU READ IT, IT'S VERY
10 QUESTIONABLE RESEARCH. AND WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEBODY WHO HAS
11 DONE A STUDY OR STUDIES IN THE PAST THAT ARE QUESTIONABLE,
12 THEY -- THEIR WEIGHT IS LESS, THEN, TOO, IN A JURY'S MIND.
13 AFTER YOU WEIGH THIS EVIDENCE, I THINK YOU'LL
14 SEE THAT THE CREDIBILITY AND THE INDEPENDENCE OF THOSE
15 EXPERTS SAYING FOR A BIG BUFFER FAR OUTWEIGH THOSE
16 MINORITY WHO SAY THERE SHOULD BE A SMALL BUFFER.
17 AND THERE'S A QUESTION OF RISK TOO, BECAUSE IF
18 MR. TURNER AND HIS FEW FRIENDS ARE RIGHT, WELL, THEN
19 EVERYTHING IS OKAY. BUT IF THEY'RE WRONG, WHERE WILL THIS
20 GRAPH BE WHEN OUR CHILDREN STAND UP HERE IN 20 YEARS?
21 WILL IT STILL BE ABOVE ZERO? IF THEY'RE WRONG, WILL IT
22 STILL BE ABOVE ZERO, OR WILL OUR CHILDREN SAY, "OH, WELL,
23 RIGHT ABOUT HERE, 2001, IT HIT THE LINE"? THAT QUESTION,
24 LADY AND GENTLEMEN, MAY BE IN YOUR HANDS TONIGHT.
25 THANK YOU.
NS
ADJOURNED PALM DOER' aTY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXJUBIT 'A'
189
9 1 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I APPRECIATED YOUR COMMENTS OF --
2 TRYING TO HELP US AND HOW WE SHOULD WEIGH EXPERT
3 TESTIMONY. AND YOU'RE AWARE OF THE DILEMMA WE HAVE. WE
4 HAVE A PAID CONSULTING FIRM THAT'S RECOMMENDING ONE
5 BUFFER, WE HAVE THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA'S FISH AND GAME
6 DIVISION, WHICH REALLY IS THE RESPONSIBLE AGENCY FOR THE
7 SHEEP IN THIS AREA, RECOMMENDING ANOTHER.
8 WHERE SHOULD WE PUT, ON THE SCALE OF
9 MEASUREMENT, THOSE TWO AGENCIES?
10 MR. GEOCARIS: WELL, FRANKLY, I'VE BEEN IN A
11 BUREAUCRACY. I'VE BEEN IN TWO. I WAS IN HAROLD BROWN'S
12 DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, WHICH WAS WELL ORGANIZED; AND I WAS IN
13 THE CARTER ENERGY DEPARTMENT, WHICH WAS --
14 BUT IN ANY EVENT, I WAS SURPRISED -- QUITE
15 FRANKLY, I WOULD GO WITH YOUR BIOLOGIST, BECAUSE HE WAS --
16 I THINK THE MAIN REASON WAS, DR. TOWEILL SAID HE HAD A
17 WIDE RANGE OF OPINION.
18 BUT SOMETHING STRANGE HAPPENED IN THE FISH AND
19 GAME, AND I DON'T HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF A LOT OF IT,
20 AND I DON'T WANT TO GO INTO IT.
21 BUT THE FACT IS THAT THE DIRECTOR WHO SIGNED A
22 FAIRLY STRONG LETTER TO YOU LAST NOVEMBER DID NOT SIGN
23 THIS, WHICH WAS A LITTLE ODD. NOR DID -- I MEAN THE
24 WORKING BIOLOGIST, WHO REALLY KNOWS SHEEP -- WHAT'S HIS
25 NAME DOWN HERE? YEAH. HE DIDN'T SIGN IT. A REASONABLE
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190
1 DIRECTOR WHO DOES NOT WORK WITH SHEEP WAS WHO SIGNED IT.
2 AND THAT WAS A LITTLE ODD. IT DID SOUND LIKE THERE WERE
3 POLITICS IN THERE. AND THE GUY WHO DID SIGN IT WAS -- YOU
4 KNOW, HE DOES NOT HAVE DIRECT EXPERIENCE. HE'S IN LONG
5 BEACH AND HE SUPERVISES A BIG REGION.
6 SO I THINK THERE IS SOME REASON TO BE
7 SUSPICIOUS. FISH AND WILDLIFE, WHICH RECOMMENDS THE 600
8 TO 1125 BUFFER AND ONLY RECOMMENDS A SMALL BUFFER -- YOU
9 READ THE SECOND LETTER, WHICH -- INCIDENTALLY, WE'RE VERY
10 INTERESTED IN THE SECOND LETTER. BUT NOTICE WHAT THE
11 SECOND LETTER SAYS: THAT THE INSTITUTE CAN MOVE OR MOVE
12 SOME OF ITS OPERATIONS, AND THEN GO DOWN TO THE SMALL
13 BUFFER. MOVE THE MORE SENSITIVE OPERATIONS, BUT,
14 BASICALLY, ONLY IF THE FUNDING AND THE FACILITIES FOR THE
15 MOVE ARE GUARANTEED FIRST.
16 SO IT'S REALLY A QUESTION OF, YOU KNOW, WHERE
17 DO YOU PLACE THE ULTIMATE RISKS? AND WE -- YOU KNOW, WE
18 HAVE BEEN TALKING TO BLM. WE'VE GOT THEM COMING IN
19 TOMORROW AND TRYING TO LOOK FOR A NEW PLACE. BUT FISH AND
20 WILDLIFE SAYS AS LONG AS THE INSTITUTE IS THERE AND HAS NO
21 OTHER PLACE TO MOVE, IT OUGHT TO STAY 600 TO 1125.
22 MEANWHILE, THE PEOPLE CAN LOOK AROUND IN THIS
23 AREA AND TRY TO FIND AN APPROPRIATE PLACE, IF FINDING A
24 PLACE. AND THEY CAN MOVE OUT SOME OR ALL THEIR
25 FACILITIES. BUT IF THE SENSITIVE FACILITIES GO, THEN THE
Nortu 'ES
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191
10 1 LITTLE 425-ACRE BUFFER WOULD BE ALL RIGHT. OF COURSE, IF
2 EVERYTHING -- THEY DON'T SAY THIS, BUT OBVIOUSLY IF THE
3 WHOLE THING WENT, THEN YOU WOULDN'T NEED ANY BUFFER.
4 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
5 COUNCILMAN CRITES: MR. MAYOR, I JUST WANTED TO JUST
6 PUT SOMETHING IN THE RECORD. WE REFERRED, FAIRLY OFTEN
7 THIS EVENING, TO THE FISH AND GAME LETTER. AND I THINK
8 IT'S WORTH NOTING WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAY IN THEIR LETTER
9 FROM YESTERDAY, SIGNED BY FRED WORTHLEY.
10 "TO CLARIFY, MY REMARKS MEAN
11 THERE SHOULD BE A MINIMUM 400-YARD
12 BUFFER IN THE SHAPE OF AN ARC FROM
13 THE EDGE OF THE LAMBING PEN."
14 SO THEY DO NOT RECOMMEND A 400-YARD BUFFER
15 PER SE. THEY RECOMMEND THAT AS THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM.
16 AND THEIR NEXT PARAGRAPH THEN SAYS:
17 "WE WOULD LIKE TO INFORM YOU
18 THE THE CLOSER THE MOUNTAIN SHEEP
19 ARE IN PROXIMITY TO PEOPLE, THE MORE
20 LIKELY THERE WILL BE IMPACTS.
21 CONVERSELY, THE LARGER THAT BUFFER,
22 THE LESS LIKELY THERE WILL BE IMPACTS."
23 AND SO I THINK TO SIMPLY SAY THAT THEY
24 RECOMMEND, PURE AND SIMPLE, 400 YARDS IS NOT WHAT THE
25 LETTER SAYS. WHETHER THAT'S RIGHT OR WRONG IS A MATTER
MINUTES
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192
10 1 THAT WE'LL HAVE TO FINALLY DECIDE. BUT WHAT THEY'RE
2 SAYING IS THAT THE DEAD MINIMUM IS 400, AND IF YOU MAKE IT
3 LARGER, IT'S LESS LIKELY X AND Y WILL HAPPEN. AND THAT'S,
4 OBVIOUSLY, AMBIGUOUS.
5 COUNCILMAN WILSON: WELL, I THINK TO READ THE
6 ASSUMPTION INTO THAT THAT THEY'RE SAYING THAT 400 YARDS
7 WOULD BE AN ACCEPTABLE BUFFER. THEY WOULD ACCEPT THAT.
8 COUNCILMAN CRITES: WOULD BE AN ACCEPTABLE MINIMUM
9 BUFFER.
10 COUNCILMAN WILSON: YEAH.
11 COUNCILMAN CRITES: AND THAT BEYOND THAT, YOU MAKE
12 IMPACTS LESS LIKELY.
13 MR. ROBERTS: THE LAST -- IF THIS WAS A BALLGAME,
14 WE'D BE IN ABOUT THE 13TH INNING.
15 THE DILEMMA BEFORE YOU, I THINK, IS REAL CLEAR.
16 THERE IS A STAFF RECOMMENDATION OF A 400-YARD BUFFER
17 SUPPORTED BY X AMOUNT OF PEOPLE. THEN YOU HAVE THE E.I.R.
18 BIOLOGICAL CONSULTANT'S RECOMMENDATION. AND
19 UNFORTUNATELY, THOSE TWO ARE NOT CLOSE. ONE IS 20 PERCENT
20 OF THE OTHER ONE. TOUGH DECISION.
21 THE DEVELOPER IS SAYING THAT IF THE FULL BUFFER
22 IS PROVIDED, HE CAN'T HAVE A PROJECT. I'M SITTING HERE
23 SAYING THAT WITH 400 YARDS, THE INSTITUTE IS GOING TO BE
24 OUT OF BUSINESS. IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF WHEN. AND WHERE
25 WE GO, NOBODY KNOWS. I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT'S A GREAT
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT 'A'
193
10 1 THING TO VOTE ON RIGHT NOW.
2 MAYOR SNYDER, WHEN WE HAD A MEETING A COUPLE
3 WEEKS AGO -- IT'S REAL CLEAR, I THINK, THAT WE'VE GOT TO
4 WORK SOMETHING OUT; OTHERWISE, WE'RE GOING TO BE BOTH
5 REAL, REAL UNHAPPY IN A FAIRLY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
6 AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TRIED TO SET UP A MEETING
7 FOR TOMORROW AFTERNOON IN CITY HALL AT 2:30, ATTENDED BY
8 BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WHO IS BRINGING THEIR MAPS
9 AGAIN, U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE AND FISH AND GAME AND COUNTY
10 OF RIVERSIDE AND, HOPEFULLY, MR. HAYHOE AND WESTINGHOUSE.
11 AND WE MAY NEED THIS PLACE TO SEAT THEM ALL.
12 SHEEP HAVE BEEN HERE FOR SEVERAL THOUSAND
13 YEARS. I GUESS IT'S WORTH ONE MORE SHOT. WE'VE GOT TO DO
14 SOMETHING. WE'VE GOT TO WORK SOMETHING OUT THAT YOU
15 PEOPLE CAN LIVE WITH. AND IN LOOKING AT THAT, I WROTE A
16 TWO -PAGE SYNOPSIS THAT WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT TOMORROW.
17 I'D LIKE TO PASS IT OUT TO YOU.
18 COUNCILMAN CRITES: WOULD YOU BE KIND ENOUGH TO MAKE
19 SURE THAT THE APPLICANT ALSO HAS A COPY?
20 MR. ROBERTS: YES, I WILL. GIVE ME FIVE SECONDS
21 HERE.
22 COUNCILMAN CRITES: WELL, WE CAN SHARE ONE AND YOU
23 MAY --
24 MR. ROBERTS: I THINK IT'S -- I GUESS IT'S CLEAR THAT
25 WE REALLY FEEL THAT IF THERE IS A 400-YARD BUFFER OR
MINUTES
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11
EXHIBIT "A"
194
1 SOMETHING THAT'S EVEN HALFWAY IN BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, WE
2 CAN'T SURVIVE. YOU HAVE THE MAJORITY OF THE EXPERTS WHO
3 HAVE RESPONDED TO THE QUESTIONNAIRE, WHO HAVE SAID THAT
4 THIS IS THE BUFFER THAT SHOULD BE THERE, AND IT IS A
5 MINIMUM. AND OUR SCIENTIFIC DATA WOULD SUFFER.
6 AND WE DID HAVE A MEETING, BY THE WAY,
7 COUNCILMAN WILSON, WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME.
8 AND TO SAY IT WAS INTERESTING WOULD BE TO SAY IT VERY
9 SHORTLY. BUT I'M STILL NOT SURE WHY THEY RECOMMENDED A
10 400-YARD ARC, BECAUSE MY QUESTION -- AND I GAVE THEM THE
11 SAME PIECE OF PAPER THAT I GAVE YOU EARLIER -- IS THAT I
12 DIDN'T UNDERSTAND,IF THEY HAD READ THE E.I.R. AND SAW
13 WHAT I SAW, THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE EXPERTS FAVORED A
14 LARGER BUFFER, WHY WOULD THE FISH AND GAME COME UP WITH A
15 SMALLER ONE?
16 AND PAUL JENSEN, AT THE VERY LAST, SAID, "WELL,
17 THAT'S A GOOD POINT."
18 AND I SAID, "IN ALL FAIRNESS, I DON'T KNOW WHAT
19 YOU PEOPLE WERE GOING TO WRITE, BUT I THINK -- I'D
20 APPRECIATE IT, FROM MY STANDPOINT, THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO
21 PROPOSE A SMALLER BUFFER, TELL US WHY, BECAUSE THEN I CAN
22 DEAL WITH IT."
23 AND I THINK WHAT BUFORD SAYS, YOU READ THAT
24 LETTER, AND IT'S LIKE WHAT DID IT REALLY SAY? IT'S
25 ACTUALLY NOT QUITE AS CONFUSING AS THE FIRST ONE, BUT IT
11
MINUTES
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195
1 IS AMBIGUOUS. AND THERE'S SOME THINGS INVOLVED -- AND
2 I'VE GOT TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE WE'RE UNDER AN M.O.U. WITH
3 THE VERY DEPARTMENT THAT IS ALSO BEING SUED. SO, YOU
4 KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT AND
5 MAKE YOUR OWN JUDGMENT.
6 SO, MAYOR, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF THIS MATTER
7 COULD BE CONTINUED. AND WE WANT TO MEET TOMORROW AT 2:30.
8 AND SOMETHING'S GOT TO GIVE. THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT
9 IT. AND IF THE INSTITUTE IS GOING TO BE FORCED TO PACK
10 ITS BAGS, WE NEED A LITTLE BIT OF NOTICE. WE NEED A
11 LITTLE BIT OF HELP.
12 AND THE THINGS THAT I HAVE PLACED BEFORE YOU
13 ARE BASICALLY TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION, AND THOSE THINGS ARE
14 INVOLVED IN RELOCATION. AND, BOY, IF WE COULD JUST --
15 SOMEONE JUST SAID, "HERE'S A SITE DOWN THE ROAD," TOMORROW
16 MORNING, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE GREAT. BUT THE FACT IS,
17 WE HAVEN'T FOUND THAT YET. WE DON'T KNOW WHERE IT'S GOING
18 TO BE.
19 AND AS YOU READ THROUGH THOSE THINGS, IT'S LIKE
20 THE BLM SAID. I'LL TELL YOU WHERE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE.
21 THEY SAID, "UP HERE IN THE WILDLIFE AREA, PERIOD, YOU'RE
22 NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO IT. WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE
23 PUTTING A ROAD THAT'S TEN MILES BACK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
24 BOONDOCKS, PERIOD." SO WE HAVE SOME LIMITATIONS THAT WE
25 HAVE TO WORK WITH.
MINUTES
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196
1 AND HOPEFULLY TOMORROW, PERHAPS, WE COULD
2 DISCUSS A REASONABLE TIMETABLE, SET UP WHO IS GOING TO DO
3 WHAT. BUT THAT'S MY SUGGESTION, BECAUSE I SEE A -- IF THE
4 DECISION WAS ADVERSE TO US TONIGHT, WE'RE ON OUR WAY. AND
5 I DON'T KNOW WHERE, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW WE'RE GOING TO DO
6 IT.
7 AND I'LL GUARANTEE THIS BOARD OF DIRECTORS, IF
8 THAT BUFFER IS FOUR OR 500 YARDS AND THAT'S IT, WE ARE NOT
9 GOING TO BUILD A RESEARCH FACILITY. NO WAY. NOT WHEN I
10 HAVE A STAFF AND WHEN YOU HAVE ALL THESE EXPERTS SAYING IT
11 ISN'T GOING TO WORK. WE'RE NOT GOING TO INVEST A MILLION
12 AND A HALF DOLLARS.
13 SO IT'S JUST A MATTER OF, THEN, IS IT A SLOW
14 DEATH? DO WE WAIT THREE OR FOUR YEARS, WHEN THE
15 DEVELOPMENT GETS NEXT TO US AND FIND OUT IT WON'T WORK?
16 WHAT DO WE DO?
17 SO THAT'S MY SUGGESTION, MAYOR, AND I HOPE IT'S
18 WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION. AND I THINK YOU'LL PROBABLY HEAR
19 THE SAME ASSURANCES FROM THE OTHER SIDE TONIGHT, THAT IF
20 WE SIT DOWN, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO SOMETHING THAT
21 WORKS.
22 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
23 NOW, BY LAW, WE HAVE HEARD THE PRESENTATION BY
24 THE CITY, WE HAVE HEAPED THE PRESENTATION BY THE APPLICANT,
25 AND WE'VE HEARD THE PRESENTATION BY THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
MINUTES
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_2
EXHIBIT 'A•
197
1 INASMUCH AS THE APPLICANT WENT FIRST, HE HAS THE RIGHT FOR
2 A REBUTTAL.
3 MR. HAYHOE: MR. MAYOR, I WAS WONDERING IF THOSE
4 FOLKS WHO ARE HERE OTHER THAN THE DEVELOPER AND THE
5 INSTITUTE, BOTH PROPONENTS AND OPPONENTS, ARE GOING TO BE
6 GIVEN A CHANCE TO SPEAK.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: YES. I HAVE CHECKED OUT MY MANNER IN
8 WHICH I AM HANDLING THIS VERY CAREFULLY WITH OUR CITY
9 ATTORNEY, AND THIS IS THE MANNER IN WHICH WE ALWAYS
10 CONDUCT THESE PROGRAMS.
11 WE HAVE THE CITY PUT FORTH THEIR PROGRAM, WE
12 HAVE THE APPLICANT MAKE HIS PROGRAM, WE HAVE THE OTHER --
13 THE OPPONENTS MAKE THEIR PROGRAM, AND THEN YOU GET YOUR
14 CHANCE FOR REBUTTAL. AT THE CONCLUSION OF THAT, THEN ALL
15 OF THESE PEOPLE WILL BE CALLED UPON TO SPEAK AS THEY SEE
16 FIT.
17 THIS IS A PUBLIC HEARING. EVERYTHING IS BEING
18 RECORDED. THIS PUBLIC HEARING WAS OPENED LAST JULY, WHEN
19 WE CONTINUED THIS MEETING. AND IT IS A CONTINUED PUBLIC
20 HEARING.
21 MR. HAYHOE: IF I COULD, I WOULD LIKE --
22 MAYOR SNYDER: WE WILL BE HEARING IT AND HAVE BEEN
23 FOR SOME TIME.
24 MR. HAYHOE: SURE. I APPRECIATE THAT.
25 IF I COULD -- I'M ONLY GOING TO HAVE A FEW
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT 'A'
198
12 1 REMARKS. I'D LIKE TO SAVE THEM UNTIL THE END, UNTIL I'VE
2 HEARD THE BALANCE OF THE OPPONENTS AND PROPONENTS SPEAK
3 AND SAVE WHATEVER I MIGHT HAVE TO SAY UNTIL THE LAST, IF I
4 CAN DO THAT. IF THAT WOULD BE AGREEABLE.
5 MAYOR SNYDER: SURE. THAT'S YOUR PREROGATIVE.
6 MR. HAYHOE: OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: YOU BET.
8 I THINK I HAVE A QUESTION THAT I WOULD LIKE TO
9 OPEN UP. WE'RE APPROACHING TEN MINUTES TO 12:00. I THINK
10 THAT WE HAVE A VERY LARGE, LARGE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WANT
11 TO SPEAK IN THIS PUBLIC HEARING, BOTH FOR AND AGAINST THIS
12 PROJECT. I'M WILLING TO STAY HERE UNTIL THE GORY END OR
13 I'M WILLING TO CONTINUE THIS MATTER, INASMUCH AS WE'RE
14 APPROACHING 12 O'CLOCK.
15 FIRST, I THINK I SHOULD ASK THE COUNCIL THEIR
16 OPINION. ARE YOU WILLING TO STAY AND HEAR OUT THE REST OF
17 THIS PUBLIC HEARING OR DO YOU WANT A CONTINUATION OF THIS
18 MATTER? AND IF YOU DO, WHEN WOULD THE CONTINUATION BE
19 HELD? I WOULD THINK THAT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE AS SOON AS
20 POSSIBLE, LIKE TOMORROW.
21 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I'D PREFER TO HEAR SOME
22 TESTIMONY. WE MAY HAVE LOST SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE BECAUSE
23 OF THE LATENESS OF THE HOUR, BUT I'D LIKE TO WRAP UP THE
24 PUBLIC TESTIMONY EVEN, AND THEN --
25 MAYOR SNYDER: AND THEN CONTINUE IT?
1
1
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT "A'
199
12 1 COUNCILMAN CRITES: IN MY PERCEPTION, ANYBODY WHO'S
2 PATIENT ENOUGH TO BE WITH US PAST THE ENDING OF JOHNNY
3 CARSON OUGHT TO BE ALLOWED TO SPEAK. AND IF, INDEED, IT
4 COMES TO 2 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING WITH PUBLIC TESTIMONY, I
5 THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE THEN FOR THE FIVE OF US TO DECIDE
6 WHETHER OR NOT WE WISH TO CONTINUE TILL TOMORROW FOR A
7 DECISION. WE MAY NOT BE THE WORLD'S BEST DECISION -MAKERS
8 IN ANOTHER TWO HOURS, BUT AT LEAST WE WILL HAVE HAD THE
9 OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR EVERYONE WHO'S SPENT THIS TIME OF THE
10 EVENING WITH US.
11 MAYOR SNYDER: OKAY. THE NORMAL PROCEDURE IS THAT I
12 WILL TAKE TESTIMONY AT THIS TIME FROM THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE
13 IN FAVOR OF THIS PROJECT. TESTIMONY FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE
14 IN FAVOR OF THE PROJECT.
15 NOW, I HAVE A VERY LARGE LIST OF PEOPLE WHO
16 HAVE SUBMITTED THEIR REQUESTS TO TALK. I CAN READ OFF
17 THESE OR YOU CAN ALL STEP FORWARD AND START TALKING AT
18 THIS TIME, AND THEN I WILL MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY HAS
19 BEEN HEARD. SO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO APPEARED TO TESTIFY IN
20 FAVOR OF THIS PROJECT.
21 WE'LL START WITH YOU, SIR.
22 MR. EHRLER: MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL.
23 MY NAME IS DAN EHRLER. I AM THE EXECUTIVE VICE
24 PRESIDENT OF THE PALM DESERT CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.
25 AND, FOR THE RECORD, I WOULD LIKE TO READ INTO
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EXHIBIT "A"
200
12 1 THE RECORD THE COMMUNICATION THAT WAS SENT TO YOU DATED
2 JULY 1.
3 "THERE HAS NOT BEEN AS THOROUGH
4 AND COMPLETE REVIEW OF ANY SINGLE
5 ISSUE AS HAS BEEN COMPLETED BY THE
6 PALM DESERT CHAMBER OF COMMENCE AS
7 THAT REGARDING THE IMPLEMENTATION OF
8 THE ALTA MIRA COUNTRY CLUB PROJECT.
9 "ALTA WEST, A MEMBER OF THE PALM
10 DESERT CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, REQUESTED
11 A POSITION OF SUPPORT FROM THE CHAMBER
12 ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PROPOSED
13 COUNTRY CLUB PROJECT. IN RESPONSE TO
14 THIS REQUEST, ARRANGEMENTS WERE MADE
15 FOR PRESENTATIONS TO THREE OF THE
16 CHAMBER'S STANDING COMMITTEES, WHICH
17 WOULD THEN RECOMMEND THEIR POSITIONS
18 TO THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR ACTION.
19 THE BOARD ALSO RECEIVED INFORMATION
20 AND PRESENTATIONS REGARDING THIS
21 PROPOSAL. INVITATIONS WERE EXTENDED
22 TO REPRESENTATIVES FROM ALTA MIRA AND
23 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE TO MAKE THEIR
24 PRESENTATIONS TO THE FOLLOWING RELATIVE
25 CHAMBER COMMITTEES: ECONOMIC
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT "A"
201
12 1 DEVELOPMENT, ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS,
2 AND LEGISLATIVE ACTION.
3 "ALTA WEST WAS REPRESENTED BY
4 RON WHITE, AND THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE
5 BY MR. JIM DE FORGE. BOTH WERE ALSO
6 INVITED TO SPEAK TO THE CHAMBER'S
7 BOARD OF DIRECTORS PRIOR TO THE
8 BOARD'S VOTE ON THE ISSUE. MR. WHITE
9 ATTENDED THE BOARD MEETING, BUT
10 MR. DE FORGE WAS NOT PRESENT.
11 "SIMILAR TO THE CHAMBER'S
12 BOARD OF DIRECTORS, OUR COMMITTEES
13 ARE MADE UP OF COMMUNITY BUSINESS
14 LEADERS FROM RETAIL, FINANCE, SERVICE,
15 DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM, TRULY A
16 REPRESENTATIVE CROSS-SECTION OF OUR
17 BUSINESS COMMUNITY. EACH MEETING
18 CONSISTED OF THE SAME FORMAT. THE
19 FIRST PRESENTATION WAS MADE BY
20 MR. WHITE FROM ALTA MIRA BECAUSE IT
21 WAS HIS MEMBER BUSINESS WHICH WAS
22 MAKING THE REQUEST TO THE CHAMBER.
23 HIS PRESENTATION WAS FOLLOWED BY
24 MR. DE FORGE. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
25 AND CONCLUDING STATEMENTS FROM EACH
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT "A"
202
12 1 REPRESENTATIVE CONCLUDED THE
2 PRESENTATIONS. BOTH GENTLEMEN
3 WERE EXCUSED, AND THE ISSUE WAS
4 THEN DISCUSSED AND VOTED UPON.
5 "THE ISSUES OF LAND USE,
6 BUFFER AREAS, ALTERNATIVE USES,
7 LAMBING AREA LOCATION, THE E.I.R.S,
8 ECONOMIC AND ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT
9 UPON OUR COMMUNITY AND THE VERY
10 CONCLUSIONS BY THE EXPERTS WERE
11 REVIEWED SENSITIVELY AND OBJECTIVELY
12 IN RELATION TO WHAT EACH COMMITTEE'S
13 PURPOSE AND FOCUS IS. BECAUSE THERE
14 WAS NOT A QUORUM PRESENT FOR THE
15 LEGISLATIVE ACTION COMMITTEE MEETING,
16 EACH MEETING WAS NOTIFIED OF THE OTHER
17 TWO COMMITTEE MEETINGS AND INVITED TO
18 ATTEND. EACH MEMBER WAS THEN TO PHONE
19 HIS OR HER RECOMMENDATION TO THE CHAMBER
20 SO THE CHAIR COULD MAKE HIS REPORT TO
21 THE BOARD AT ITS MEETING. EACH OF THE
22 OTHER TWO COMMITTEES WERE ABLE TO VOTE
23 ON THE ISSUE AT THEIR MEETING.
24 "THE PALM DESERT CHAMBER OF
25 COMMERCE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT,
13
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESE CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
203
13 1 ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS, AND LEGISLATIVE
2 AFFAIRS COMMITTEE VOTED TO SUPPORT THE
3 ALTA MIRA COUNTRY CLUB PROJECT AS
4 PROPOSED AND RECOMMENDED THAT SUPPORT
5 TO THE CHAMBER'S BOARD OF DIRECTORS.
6 FOLLOWING REPORTS TO THE BOARD OF
7 DIRECTORS BY EACH COMMITTEE'S CHAIRS,
8 THE PALM DESERT CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
9 BOARD OF DIRECTORS VOTED TO SUPPORT
10 THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE ALTA MIRA
11 COUNTRY CLUB PROJECT AND RESPECTFULLY
12 RECOMMENDS APPROVAL BY THE PALM
13 DESERT CITY COUNCIL FOR ITS
14 IMPLEMENTATION AS PROPOSED.
15 "THE KEY ISSUES UPON WHICH THESE
16 DECISIONS WERE MADE INCLUDE:
17 "FIRST, THE BUFFER WHICH IS
18 INCLUDED IN THE PROPOSED PROJECT IS
19 ACCEPTABLE AND APPROPRIATE. THE
20 ARGUMENT FOR A LARGER BUFFER WAS NOT
21 ADEQUATELY SUBSTANTIATED. IT WAS NOT
22 PROVEN TO THE POINT OF ACCEPTANCE
23 THAT THE PROPOSED PROJECT WOULD IN
24 FACT DETER OR NEGATIVELY IMPACT THE
25 ACTIVITIES OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESFT " CTTY COUNCIL MEETING
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AUGUST 1, 1991
* s * * * * * * * * * * *
EXHIBIT 'A'
204
13 1 "SECOND, THE PROPOSED PROJECT IS
2 THE BEST USE OF THE LAND.
3 "THIRD, THE PROPOSED PROJECT'S
4 POSITIVE ECONOMIC IMPACT TO OUR
5 COMMUNITY AND REGION WOULD BE
6 SIGNIFICANT AND HIGHLY ADVANTAGEOUS.
7 "THE ZONED USAGE OF THE
8 DEVELOPER'S PROPERTY WAS KNOWN BY
9 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE PRIOR TO ITS
10 BEGINNING OPERATIONS WAS THE FOURTH
11 REASON.
12 "THE FIFTH, THE DEVELOPER'S
13 OFFER TO ASSIST THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE
14 IS ADMIRABLE AND SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED
15 AS SENSITIVELY WORKING WITH HIS
16 NEIGHBORS."
17 AND, FINALLY, THE SIXTH REASON FOR THE POSITION
18 IS THAT:
19 "THE PROPOSED ALTA MIRA COUNTRY
20 CLUB PROJECT IS WELL PLANNED, ENVIRON-
21 MENTALLY SENSITIVE, AND WOULD MAKE AN
22 EXCEPTIONABLE PALM DESERT GATEWAY
23 RESIDENTIAL COMMUNITY."
24 VERY IMPORTANTLY:
25 "THE PALM DESERT CHAMBER OF
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEI CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
='S
13 1 COMMERCE SEES THIS NOT AS A FOR OR
2 AGAINST THE BIGHORN SHEEP ISSUE. TO
3 INTERPRET THE CHAMBER'S SUPPORT FOR
4 THE ALTA WEST PROJECT AS BEING, QUOTE,
5 AGAINST BIGHORN SHEEP, UNQUOTE, WOULD
6 BE A MONUMENTAL ERROR. THE PALM DESERT
7 CHAMBER'S POSITION REFLECTS A VERY
8 THOROUGH DECISION -MAKING PROCESS WHICH
9 CONCLUDED THAT THE IMPLEMENTATION OF
10 THE PROPOSED ALTA MIRA PROJECT WOULD
11 BE A GOOD DECISION FOR OUR COMMUNITY.
12 THE CHAMBER IS DEEPLY CONCERNED WITH
13 THE PRESERVATION OF OUR AREA'S WILD-
14 LIFE, AIR QUALITY, THE TOTAL QUALITY
15 OF LIFE, JUST AS WE ARE COMMITTED TO A
16 POSITIVE AND HEALTHY ECONOMY. THE
17 CHAMBER SEES THIS AS AN EXTRAORDINARY
18 OPPORTUNITY FOR US ALL TO WORK CLOSELY
19 TOGETHER AS NEIGHBORS TO ACHIEVE WHAT
20 WILL BE BENEFICIAL FOR US ALL: A
21 LEGACY OF WHICH WE CAN ALL BE PROUD."
22 UNLESS THERE ARE ANY QUESTIONS, I APPRECIATE
23 YOUR TIME.
24 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
25 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, MR. EHRLER.
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESER' 7rry COUNCIL MEETING
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AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
206
13 1 MS. HARTNETT: MR. MAYOR, CITY COUNCILMEN.
2 I CANNOT BELIEVE I'M HERE. YOU'RE LOOKING AT A
3 PERSON WHO TURNS OFF THE LIGHT AT 9 O'CLOCK IN THE EVENING
4 AND GETS UP BETWEEN 5:00 AND 6:00.
5 BUT I WANT TO STATE -- BY THE WAY, MARJORIE
6 HARTNETT, AND I LIVE IN INDIAN HILLS AND AM A MEMBER OF
7 THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF INDIAN HILLS CONDOMINIUMS,
8 ADJACENT PROPERTY TO THE PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT.
9 THE BOARD HAS ACTED -- OR SENT YOU A LETTER
10 SHOWING THAT WE FAVOR THE DEVELOPMENT. AND I PERSONALLY
11 AM IN FAVOR OF IT FOR SEVERAL REASONS.
12 BUT FIRST, I LISTENED TO ALL THIS THIS EVENING.
13 DURING THE PERIOD WHEN THEY WERE DEMOLISHING THE HOMES IN
14 PLAYA DEL REY, BECAUSE IT HAD BEEN DECIDED THAT THE
15 AIRPLANES FROM LOS ANGELES INTERNATIONAL SHOULD GO OUT
16 OVER THE OCEAN SO THEY WOULDN'T BOTHER THE LAND DWELLERS,
17 AS THE NOISE AND THE GASOLINE DROPPING AS THEY TAKE OFF,
18 ONE OF THE BIG ITEMS OF CONTROVERSY AT THAT TIME WAS AN
19 ENDANGERED SPECIES OF BUTTERFLY.
20 ABOUT TWO MONTHS AGO -- AND I THOUGHT OF THIS
21 SITUATION -- THE LOS ANGELES TIMES HAD AN ARTICLE. AND
22 THOSE BUTTERFLIES -- THE HOUSES ARE ALL GONE, THE PEOPLE
23 ARE GONE -- THOSE BUTTERFLIES ARE FLOURISHING WITH
24 AIRPLANE -- YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT IT MUST BE. TALK ABOUT
25 STRESS. THIS IS KIND OF PERSONAL.
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESE' CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT "A"
207
13 1 ALSO, IT'S A SHAME, AND I SYMPATHIZE WITH ALL
2 OF YOU BECAUSE I DON'T THINK, EVEN IF YOU WERE TO DECLINE
3 THIS PETITION, THAT YOU'RE THROUGH WITH THIS SUBJECT
4 BECAUSE THAT LAND IS THE BEST PARCEL OF LAND IN PALM
5 DESERT AND WILL BE -- SOMEONE ELSE WILL BE APPROACHING
6 YOU.
7 AND I'M JUST SORRY THAT NO ONE OF THE BOARD OF
8 DIRECTORS OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE ATTENDED A ECONOMIC --
9 AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION OF THE COACHELLA
10 VALLEY THAT MET AT THE FAIRGROUNDS IN INDIO IN 1969, AND
11 SOMEONE -- YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THE NAME OF FRED REINHART,
12 WHO, AT THE TIME, I BELIEVE WAS THE HEAD PLANNER OF
13 RIVERSIDE COUNTY.
14 HE SAID TO ALL OF US, "BY THE YEAR 2,000, THIS
15 DESERT WILL BE SOLID DEVELOPMENT FROM BANNING TO THE
16 SALTON SEA."
17 I THOUGHT, "THAT MAN IS CRAZY."
18 BUT I HAVE NEVER FORGOTTEN IT. AND IF SOMEONE
19 FROM THE BIGHORN HAD HEARD THAT AND REALIZED, WITH THE
20 POPULATION GROWTH OF CALIFORNIA, THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT
21 WE'RE GOING TO GET SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THIS IS
22 THE BEST PLACE IN THE WORLD TO LIVE. AND I AGREE.
23 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
24 MR. CHAPEL: HI. MY NAME IS DENNIS CHAPEL. I'M THE
25 OWNER OF AZ -TECH ELECTRIC, AND I'M REPRESENTING LYNN
14
14 NUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEP' CITY COUNCIL MEETING
* * * * * * * * * * * ,._ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
AUGUST 1, 1991
EXHIBIT •A'
208
14 1 GILBERT, WHO IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FOR THE DESERT
2 CONTRACTOR'S ASSOCIATION.
3 AND I'VE BEEN ASKED TO COME HERE AND SPEAK ON
4 BEHALF OF THE D.C.A. AND THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE ALTA MIRA
5 PROJECT AND, ALSO, TO LET EVERYBODY KNOW THAT THEY'RE ALSO
6 CONCERNED ABOUT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE AND THE ENVIRONMENT
7 HERE.
8 BUT IN LISTENING TO ALL THE CONVERSATIONS GOING
9 ON AND ALL THE SPEAKERS HERE, I NOTICE THAT THE OPPONENTS
10 TO THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT MAKE A LOT OF NOTATIONS ABOUT THE
11 FACT THAT THERE'S TOO MANY GOLF COURSES AND THERE
12 SHOULDN'T BE ANY MORE GROWTH IN THIS VALLEY.
13 WELL, MAYBE THEIR CONCERN IS THAT ALL THE
14 CONSTRUCTION IN THIS VALLEY SHOULD BE STOPPED AND WE
15 SHOULD ALL MOVE TO ANOTHER PLACE. MAYBE WE SHOULD ALSO
16 PUT A BAN ON REPRODUCTION.
17 WE, THE MAJORITY OF US, ARE HERE BECAUSE OF THE
18 GROWTH IN THIS VALLEY, AND IT'S BEEN BECAUSE OF THE CITY
19 COUNCIL THAT IT'S BEEN A DELIGHTFUL GROWTH THAT WE'VE BEEN
20 ABLE TO KEEP A HOLD ON POOR PROJECTS AND WE'VE BEEN ABLE
21 TO KEEP THE DESERT BEAUTIFUL.
22 WE JUST WOULD LIKE TO EXPRESS THE CONCERN OF
23 THE CONTRACTORS IN THE VALLEY THAT THIS PARTICULAR
24 PROJECT, BEING LOW DENSITY, BEING THE BEAUTIFUL PROJECT
25 THAT IT IS, WOULD REPRESENT PALM DESERT IN A NICE WAY.
?QNUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESF C1TY COUNCIL MEEI'LNG
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * • * * * * • • - . * * * * * * * * * * *
AUGUST 1, 1991
EXHIBIT 'A'
209
14 1 AS FAR AS CONTRACTORS ARE CONCERNED, PROBABLY
2 BE A LOT MORE WORK IF WE PUT 1400 UNITS IN THERE. BUT WE
3 ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE VALLEY, WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE
4 ECONOMY, AND WE'RE ALSO CONCERNED ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT.
5 AND WE SUPPORT THE PROJECT 100 PERCENT.
6 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, SIR.
7 MR. WALKER: GOOD MORNING, EVERYBODY.
8 THIS EVENING HAS BEEN VERY EDUCATIONAL.
9 I'M SORRY. MY NAME IS RICK WALKER, AND I'M A
10 LOCAL DEVELOPER DOWN HERE IN THE COACHELLA VALLEY. WE'RE
11 THE DEVELOPERS OF COUNTRY CLUB BUSINESS PARK.
12 AND THIS EVENING HAS BEEN EXTREMELY EDUCATIONAL
13 FROM BOTH SIDES. AND MR. HAYHOE HAS DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB
14 IN PRESENTING AND STAFF HAS DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB IN
15 REVIEWING AND GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS AND EDUCATING AND
16 LOOKING, AND THE EXPERTS SAY THAT THE PROJECT MAKES SENSE.
17 MR. HAYHOE HAS MADE, IN MY MIND, UNBELIEVABLE
18 COMPENSATIONS TO MAKE AND FIND SOLUTIONS TO MAKE
19 EVERYTHING WORK.
20 I'VE HEARD SOME THINGS BY THE INSTITUTE, AND IT
21 WAS BASICALLY FROM A BIOLOGICAL STANDPOINT. THERE
22 WASN'T -- IT WASN'T SOLUTION -ORIENTED, IT WAS -- I WAS
23 QUITE SHOCKED TO HEAR SUCH THINGS AS THERE WAS HELICOPTER
24 TRIPS WITH COUNCIL MEMBERS, THAT ONE OF OUR COUNTY
25 OFFICIALS STOOD UP AND PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED THINGS THAT,
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESET CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
* * * * * * * * * * * ` s * * * * * * * * * * * * s * * * * * * * * * * *
EXIIIBTT 'A'
210
14 1 WITH AT LEAST -- I HAVE COUNTED FIVE OR SIX LAWYERS HERE
2 TONIGHT. IN MY WILDEST DREAMS I WOULDN'T STAND UP AND SAY
3 SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HE SAID WITH ALL THE LAWYER
4 REPRESENTATION THAT'S IN THIS ARENA RIGHT NOW.
5 I'D JUST LIKE TO GET MY TWO CENTS IN, THAT I
6 THINK THAT THE REAL -- REAL PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE, THAT WE
7 WON'T SEE THE BIGHORN SHEEP GO AWAY, BUT WE WILL SEE THE
8 DEVELOPER GO AWAY.
9 AND IF WE WERE TO TAKE AN EDUCATIONAL PROCESS
10 TO EDUCATE OUR PUBLIC ON WHAT THE DEVELOPER GOES THROUGH
11 AND WHAT EXPENSES AND THE HARDSHIPS AND THE STRESS THAT
12 THE DEVELOPER GOES THROUGH THAT I THINK WE COULD AT LEAST
13 WORK TOGETHER WITH DIFFERENT ENTITIES, DIFFERENT PEOPLES,
14 DIFFERENT INSTITUTES, AND WE COULD MAKE IT WORK BECAUSE
15 GOOD PLANNING IS WHAT A LOT OF THE DEVELOPERS, GOOD-
16 QUALITY DEVELOPERS, ARE BRINGING TO THIS DESERT AND ARE
17 TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO MAKE IT WORK.
18 BUT WE KEEP COMING UP WITH THESE PROBLEMS --
19 ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEMS LIKE THEY'RE EXISTING. THE ONLY
20 ONES THAT ARE GOING TO WIN ARE THE LAWYERS. THAT'S IT.
21 WE HAVE TO FIND SOLUTIONS. AND I THINK MR. HAYHOE HAS
22 DONE A GREAT JOB AT TRYING TO DO THAT.
23 I STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT THE EXPERTISE OF THE
24 STAFF, WHICH HAS WORKED REAL HARD ON THIS PARTICULAR
25 SITUATION, TO GO FORWARD. LET'S GET THE TIME SO THE
1
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEF C1TY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
211
14 1 DEVELOPER CAN GET ON WITH HIS LIFE.
2 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
3 MAYOR SNYDER: ANYONE ELSE CARE TO -- IN FAVOR THIS
4 PROGRAM?
5 MR. MC ALLISTER: MY NAME IS BOB MC ALLISTER. I LIVE
6 AT AGAVE LANE, WHICH IS IRONWOOD COUNTRY CLUB. AND I'D
7 LIKE TO MAKE A VERY BRIEF STATEMENT.
8 I MOVED TO PALM DESERT IN 1976 ON A PART-TIME
9 BASIS AND AGAIN, PERMANENTLY, IN 1981. MY WIFE AND I HAD
10 A CHOICE AT THAT TIME, REALLY, TO LIVE ANYPLACE IN THE
11 UNITED STATES. WE REALLY CHOSE THIS PLACE ABOVE ALL
12 OTHERS ON THE BASIS THAT IT WAS THE KIND OF COMMUNITY WE
13 WANTED TO LIVE IN. WE NOT ONLY CHOSE TO LIVE HERE, WE
14 OPENED UP A BUSINESS. WE'VE BEEN IN BUSINESS HERE FOR
15 NINE YEARS NOW.
16 AND I THINK THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT IS EXACTLY
17 THE KIND OF ATMOSPHERE WE'D LIKE TO LIVE IN, SO I SUGGEST
18 THAT PERHAPS YOU WOULD CONSIDER FAVORABLY TOWARDS GIVING
19 THIS PROJECT A FAVORABLE REVIEW.
20 THANK YOU.
21 MAYOR SNYDER: WE'RE TAKING THE TESTIMONY, NOW, FROM
22 PEOPLE IN FAVOR OF THE PROJECT.
23 MS. CRAIG: IN FAVOR OF THE PROJECT?
24 MAYOR SNYDER: YES.
25 MS. CRAIG: OH, NO. I'M NOT.
15
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESERT ,ITY COUNCIL NEIDETING
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
AUGUST 1, 1991
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
EXHIBIT 'A'
212
1 DR. CAMPBELL: YOUR HONOR MR. MAYOR, CITY COUNCIL,
2 STAFF, FRIENDS.
3 DR. PAUL CAMPBELL, 72-805 PARK VIEW DRIVE.
4 THERE WERE A LOT OF THINGS THAT I WANTED TO SAY
5 THIS EVENING, BUT AFTER HEARING THE DANGERS OF CHARACTER
6 ASSASSINATION, I'M GOING TO HAVE TO BACK OFF A LITTLE BIT,
7 BUT IT'S SO LATE THAT I MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO TAKE OUT OF
8 MY SPEECH WHAT I HAD PLANNED. SO I'M GOING JUST TO READ
9 TO YOU WHAT I WAS GOING TO TELL YOU MUCH EARLIER THIS
10 EVENING, IF YOU'LL EXCUSE ME.
11 I DID WANT TO COMMENT THAT WE'RE PLAYING TO A
12 FULL HOUSE TONIGHT. IT'S JUST TOO BAD THAT SO MANY OF
13 THEM THAT WERE HERE DON'T VOTE HERE. BUT I WILL SAY THAT
14 AFTER HEARING SOME OF THESE EXPERTS TONIGHT, I CAN
15 UNDERSTAND WHY THIS STATE BUDGET IS IN SUCH A MESS.
16 AT THIS POINT IN THE PROGRAM -- I'M SPEAKING
17 DURING THE TIME THAT WAS DESIGNATED FOR THE ALTA MIRA
18 SUPPORT, WHICH I DO. BUT I ALSO SUPPORT THE RESEARCH
19 GOALS OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
20 WE HAVE TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE IN THE ROOM
21 TONIGHT: THE INFORMED AND THE UNINFORMED. BUT THERE'S NO
22 ONE IN THIS ROOM OR ELSEWHERE THAT, DURING THIS CONTRIVED
23 CONTROVERSY, HAS ADVOCATED NEGLECTING THE PLIGHT OF THE
24 SHEEP.
25 I SAY "CONTRIVED" BECAUSE IT IS MY FIRM BELIEF
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DEST ' CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
213
15 1 THAT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE PURPOSELY AND SKILLFULLY, FROM
2 THE VERY OUTSET, SOUGHT TO DIVIDE THIS COMMUNITY INTO A
3 SHEEP OR DOLLARS STATE OF MIND. AND THIS WAS DONE FOR
4 THEIR OWN PERSONAL FINANCIAL GAIN. AND WHAT BETTER WAY TO
5 INCREASE THE RECEIPTS OF YOUR DONATIONS THAN TO DO BATTLE
6 WITH THE UGLY DEVELOPER? THIS ENVIRONMENTAL EXTORTION WAS
7 WELL -PLANNED, AND WE CAN SEE TONIGHT, IT FEEDS OFF THE
8 UNINFORMED.
9 DESPITE THE TREMENDOUS ECOLOGICAL BENEFITS OF
10 ALTA MIRA AND DESPITE THE RIDICULOUS CONFLICTING
11 EVALUATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED EXPERT, DE FORGE CONTINUES TO
12 TELL US WE NEED -- OUR NEEDS FOR A BUFFER BECAUSE OF THE
13 STRESS -RELATED VIRUS AND INTERFERENCE WITH PROCREATION IN
14 THE PENS.
15 HE DOESN'T TELL US THAT THE STRESS IN THE
16 MEDICAL SENSE, AS HE USED IT, REFERS TO ANIMALS CRAMMED IN
17 MASSIVE FEED LOTS OR BEING TRANSPORTED TO SLAUGHTER HOUSES
18 IN FOUR -LEVEL TRAILERS. I'D BE STRESSED TOO, IF I WAS ON
19 ONE OF THE LOWER DECKS OF THOSE TRAILERS WITH THOSE OPEN
20 GRILLS UP ABOVE.
21 AND HE, JUST TONIGHT, MENTIONED THE FACT THAT
22 THE LAMBS -- OR THE FEMALE SHEEP AT THE LIVING DESERT HAVE
23 TO WEAR THE PATCHES ON THEIR EAR BECAUSE THESE ANIMALS
24 PROCEATE SO EASILY. HE HASN'T TOLD US THAT, BUT IT'S
25 TRUE.
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESE CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXIBBTT 'A'
214
15 1 BUT HE HAS TOLD US, THOUGH -- NOT THIS EVENING,
2 BUT HE HAS SAID IT IN PUBLIC -- THAT HE WILL TAKE THIS
3 CONFLICT ALL THE WAY TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE IF
4 HE DOESN'T GET HIS WAY HERE. AND WHY NOT, AS LONG AS
5 ERNIE AND PETE HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT? HE HAS SHOWN
6 THAT HE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO RESPECT FOR OUR CITY PLANNING
7 COMMISSION OR THIS BODY.
8 YOU MAY WONDER WHAT IS MY INTEREST IN THE
9 MEETING? WELL, IT'S TWOFOLD. ONE, THE BILLION -DOLLAR
10 ECONOMIC BENEFIT OF THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT. AND ALTHOUGH
11 I'M SPEAKING ONLY FOR MYSELF TONIGHT, I AM DEEPLY INVOLVED
12 IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE
13 IS OVERWHELMING SUPPORT FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS
14 PROJECT FROM THAT SEGMENT OF OUR POPULATION. THE BIGHORN
15 INSTITUTE CAN ALSO BE A MAJOR ASSET TO THE CITY IF IT IS
16 PROPERLY MANAGED.
17 AND SPEAKING OF MANAGEMENT, IT IS PITIFUL THAT
18 ACCORDING TO THE FORM 990 FOR THE YEAR 1989, OF A TOTAL
19 INCOME OF OVER $500,000, LESS THAN 4,000 -- LESS THAN
20 $4,000 WAS SPENT ON ANIMAL CARE. IT WOULD SEEM THE
21 BIGHORN INSTITUTE NEEDS TO GET ITS PRIORITIES IN PLACE.
22 ALTA MIRA AND WESTINGHOUSE HAVE OFFERED THEM
23 MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO ACT LIKE GOOD NEIGHBORS, BUT THEY
24 REFUSE. I MUST SAY THAT WHEN I SEE THEM GETTING OUT OF
25 THEIR JEEP TO PICK UP THEIR TAX-EXEMPT CHECKS AT THE POST
16
1
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESET CITY COUNC L MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
215
16 1 OFFICE, I DON'T SEE DESERT BOOTS, I SEE BLUE SUEDE.
2 BUT THERE IS ANOTHER AND MORE IMPORTANT REASON
3 FOR MY CONCERN. AND THOSE OF YOU WHO WERE IN THE WARS
4 APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT ONE OF THE LIBERTIES THAT WAS
5 DIED FOR WAS THE RIGHT TO OWN LAND AND USE IT FOR WHATEVER
6 PURPOSE YOU CHOSE CONSISTENT WITH EXISTING LAWS.
7 WE ALL KNOW THAT MUCH TALK ABOUT BUFFER WILL
8 MAKE A PORTION OF ALTA MIRA USELESS. BUT VERY LITTLE HAS
9 BEEN SAID ABOUT THE SEVERAL SMALL LANDOWNERS WHOSE DREAM
10 OF A HOME AND THE USE OF THEIR LAND WILL BE TOTALLY WIPED
11 OUT BY A BUFFER.
12 SURE. BIGHORN INSTITUTE SAYS THEY SHOULD BE
13 PAID FOR IT. WE'VE HEARD THAT. THEN WITH A SMIRK, THEY
14 SAY, "BUT WE DON'T KNOW BY WHOM."
15 SO ALL OUR STRUGGLES TO MAINTAIN OR ACHIEVE OUR
16 HUMAN CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ARE NOT ALWAYS CONTAINED IN
17 SOME FIERCE FIREFIGHT IN SOME DISTANT LAND. THERE ARE
18 TIMES WHEN THEY'RE FOUGHT IN OUR OWN BACKYARDS. AND
19 TONIGHT THIS ISSUE OF CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS IS LAID AT
20 YOUR FEET. THESE RIGHTS ARE THE REAL ISSUE, AND THAT'S
21 WHY I AM HERE TONIGHT.
22 VOTING FOR THE BASIC RIGHTS OF THESE VARIOUS
23 LANDOWNERS WILL GIVE YOU FAR MORE STATURE AMONG YOUR PEERS
24 AND CONSTITUENTS THAN SUBMITTING TO THE PRESSURES TO
25 SUPPLY RANCHO MIRAGE WITH SHEEP FOR THEIR MUCH -PUBLICIZED
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESET CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
PRESERVE.
216
THE CITY COUNCIL IS NOT A LACKEY FOR RANCHO
MIRAGE, AND YOUR ALLEGIANCE IS NOT TO THAT CITY, NOT TO
THE COUNTY OF RIVERSIDE, NOT TO THE FISH AND GAME OR THE
SIERRA CLUB, BUT TO THE VOTERS OF THIS COMMUNITY. THE
TIME FOR FEIGNED COMPROMISES AND HELICOPTER RIDES IS OVER.
YOU MUST VOTE FOR OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
MS. ARTIS: GOOD MORNING, COUNCIL MEMBERS.
MY NAME IS NANCY ARTIS, AND THAT'S A-R-T-I-S.
AND I RESIDE AT 72-687 SPYGLASS LANE, HERE IN PALM DESERT.
OVER THE PAST TEN MONTHS THERE HAS BEEN A LOT
OF HEATED DISCUSSION REGARDING THE REVIEW BY THE CITY
COUNCIL OF THIS DEVELOPMENT PLAN. I JUST WANT YOU TO
CONSIDER SEVERAL IMPORTANT FACTORS.
HISTORICALLY, THE CITY COUNCIL HAS ALWAYS VOTED
ON A UNITED FRONT WITH THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CITY AS
YOUR PRIMARY MOTIVATION. LAST FALL, YOU WERE UNOPPOSED
FOR ELECTION WITH THE FULL CONFIDENCE OF THE PEOPLE OF
THIS CITY. HENCE, I URGE YOU TO REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE
ELECTED OFFICIALS PUT INTO OFFICE IN GOOD FAITH AND WITH
THE EXPECTATION OF THE PALM DESERT CITIZENRY THAT YOU
WOULD ACT ON OUR BEHALF.
THEREFORE, I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU SET ASIDE
1
M1N1Y ES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEP CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1,1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
217
16 1 EXTERNAL PRESSURES AND YOUR OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS AND VOTE
2 FOR THE DEVELOPMENT THAT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF PALM
3 DESERT. YOU DO NOT REPRESENT THE INTEREST OF PRIVATE
4 PARTIES, THE CITIZENS OF OTHER LOCAL CITIES, OTHER
5 COUNTIES, OR OTHER STATES, AND YOU NEED TO MAKE THIS
6 DECISION FOR US, THE CITIZENS OF PALM DESERT.
7 THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
8 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
9 MR. BIEDERMAN: YOUR HONOR THE MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE
10 COUNCIL.
11 GOOD MORNING, AND THANK YOU FOR THE PRIVILEGE
12 OF ALLOWING ME TO BE HERE.
13 MY NAME IS OLIVER BIEDERMAN. AND I CURRENTLY
14 RESIDE AT 1645 WEST AVENUE L-8 IN LANCASTER,
15 CALIFORNIA.
16 I THINK I HAVE COME HERE AS AN EXAMPLE THAT HAS
17 BEEN CITED BY SEVERAL OTHER SPEAKERS, ONE OF THOSE OTHER
18 LANDOWNERS WHO ALSO WOULD BE IMPACTED UPON BY THE DECISION
19 THAT YOU MAKE TONIGHT. FOR, TRULY, THE DECISION THAT YOU
20 MAKE WILL NOT ONLY AFFECT ALTA WEST AND ALTA MIRA COUNTRY
21 CLUB. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER LANDHOLDERS WHO WILL
22 VERY MUCH BE IMPACTED BY YOUR DECISION.
23 AND I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU SHOULD
24 SEE AT LEAST ONE OR TWO OF US GRAPHICALLY SO THAT YOU
25 APPRECIATE THE PROBLEMS -- THE PLIGHT, REALLY, OF THE
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218
16 1 OTHER LANDHOLDERS WHO ARE INVOLVED.
2 IF I MAY, I WILL VERY BRIEFLY READ SOMETHING
3 VERY SIMILAR TO A LETTER, A COPY OF WHICH I SENT EACH
4 MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL.
5 "IN 1969, WE PURCHASED TWO
6 ADJACENT PARCELS OF LAND WITH A
7 COMBINED ACREAGE OF 4.73 ACRES
8 JUST NORTH OF THE PRESENT BIGHORN
9 INSTITUTE. THIS LAND, AGAIN, WAS
10 PURCHASED 12 YEARS PRIOR TO THE
11 ESTABLISHMENT OF THE INSTITUTE, AND
12 IT IS IMMEDIATELY NORTH OF THE
13 INSTITUTE. IT IS ACTUALLY IN
14 COUNTY LAND AT THE PRESENT TIME,
15 JUST OUTSIDE THE CITY LIMITS. WE
16 ARE DISTURBED BY THE IMPENDING LEGAL
17 ACTION THAT MAY MAKE OUR LAND ON
18 HIGHWAY 74 VIRTUALLY WORTHLESS.
19 A BUFFER ZONE OF 600 METERS WOULD
20 NOT ONLY IMPACT THE LAND OF ALTA
21 MIRA, BUT IT WOULD ALSO PREVENT THE
22 DEVELOPMENT OF OUR LAND AND ALSO THE
23 LAND OF OTHER LANDHOLDERS, BOTH
24 LARGE AND SMALL.
25 "FURTHERMORE, LET ME TELL YOU
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219
16 1 THAT THERE IS NO MECHANISM IN PLACE
2 TO PROVIDE ANY KIND OF COMPENSATION
3 FOR THE OWNERS OF THIS LAND. THERE
4 IS NO MECHANISM TO EXCHANGE LAND OR
5 TO PROVIDE PURCHASE OF THE LAND.
6 AND IF THE BUFFER ZONE OF 600 METERS
7 IS ENACTED, OUR PROPERTY TRULY WILL
8 BECOME VIRTUALLY WORTHLESS.
9 "THE WORK OF THE BIGHORN
10 INSTITUTE IS INDEED VERY IMPORTANT
11 WORK, BUT WE FEEL THAT IT COULD BE
12 DONE WITHOUT JEOPARDIZING THE PROP-
13 ERTY RIGHTS OF ALL OF THE LANDOWNERS
14 IN THE AREA. IT DOES NOT SEEM TO US
15 REASONABLE FOR SOMEONE TO MOVE INTO
16 AN AREA OF PRIVATE PROPERTY, TO BUY
17 PROPERTY, AND THEN TO INSIST THAT
18 THE OTHER NEIGHBORS NOT USE THEIR
19 LAND.
20 "AND, FURTHERMORE, IT IS MORE
21 TO POINT OUT THAT WE WERE NEVER
22 INFORMED THAT THE PRESENCE OF THE
23 INSTITUTE MIGHT IN ANY WAY LIMIT OR
24 PROHIBIT THE DEVELOPMENT OF OUR
25 PROPERTY. WE FEEL THAT, IN ALL
17
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220
17 1 FAIRNESS, THAT WE AND ALL OTHER
2 CONCERNED PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN
3 INFORMED OF THE POTENTIAL PROBLEMS
4 LONG AGO, PERHAPS PRIOR TO THE
5 ESTABLISHMENT OF THE BIGHORN
6 INSTITUTE. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR THE
7 BIGHORN INSTITUTE TO MOVE FARTHER
8 FROM RESIDENTIAL PALM DESERT. AND WE
9 FEEL IT MAY BE IN THE BEST INTERESTS
10 OF THE BIGHORN SHEEP FOR THE INSTI-
11 TUTE TO DO SO.
12 "WE ASK, FINALLY, THAT THE
13 INTERESTS OF ALL OF THE LANDOWNERS
14 IN THE AREA ALSO BE TAKEN INTO CON-
15 SIDERATION. AND, AGAIN, WE WISH TO
16 EMPHASIZE, FINALLY, THE POINT THAT
17 IF YOU DO GRANT THE 600-YARD BUFFER
18 ZONE, THAT THIS WILL SET A PRECEDENT
19 THAT WILL VERY PROBABLY CAUSE A
20 NUMBER OF OTHER LANDOWNERS, REALLY,
21 TO LOSE THE VALUE OF THEIR PROPERTY.
22 AND THIS WOULD OCCUR IN THE ABSENCE
23 OF ANY SERIOUS MECHANISM TO PROVIDE
24 ANY KIND OF COMPENSATION."
25 THANK YOU VERY MUCH, GENTLEMEN.
NS
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EXHIBIT "A"
221
17 1 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, SIR.
2 MS. GAGNON: MY NAME IS LORI GAGNON. I'M HERE FOR
3 BOTH OURSELVES ON THE 12-ACRE PARCEL AND, ALSO, FOR
4 WILLIAM STEWART, WHO CANNOT BE HERE. HE'S IN FAIRBANKS,
5 ALASKA.
6 MR. STEWART HAS A PROPERTY VERY NEAR
7 MR. BIEDERMAN'S. HE SENT A LETTER THAT I BELIEVE YOU'VE
8 ALL RECEIVED, BUT HE WOULD ALSO LIKE TO HAVE IT READ ALOUD
9 TO THE MEMBERS HERE, TO THE AUDIENCE.
10 "DEAR MR. MAYOR AND MEMBERS OF THE
11 COUNCIL:
12 "I OWN TWO PARCELS OF LAND
13 ALONG HIGHWAY 74 AND ADJOINING AND
14 TO THE WEST OF THE BLM LANDS CONVEYED
15 TO THE BIGHORN SHEEP INSTITUTE. I
16 RENTED THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE MY
17 SINGLE-FAMILY RESIDENCE USED BY THE
18 INSTITUTE IN ITS OPERATIONS. I HAVE
19 LIVED ON THIS 8-ACRE PARCEL OF LAND
20 SEVERAL YEARS AND PLAN TO LIVE THERE
21 AGAIN IN THE NEAR FUTURE AS MY RETIRE-
22 MENT HOME.
23 "I WAS QUITE ALARMED AND
24 DISTURBED TO FIND OUT THAT THE INSTI-
25 TUTE IS REQUESTING THE CITY OF PALM
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222
17 1 DESERT TO IMPOSE A NONDEVELOPMENT
2 BUFFER AREA ON ADJOINING PROPERTIES
3 NEIGHBORING THE INSTITUTE FACILITIES.
4 NEITHER THE INSTITUTE NOR ANY OTHER
5 ENTITY, INCLUDING THE COUNTY OF
6 RIVERSIDE, HAS EVER NOTIFIED ME THAT
7 BY VIRTUE OF ITS PROXIMITY TO THE
8 INSTITUTE, FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF MY
9 PROPERTY MAY BE LIMITED OR PREVENTED.
10 "I HAVE BEEN COOPERATIVE WITH
11 THE INSTITUTE AND DO NOT OBJECT TO
12 ITS OPERATIONS. AS WITH MOST PEOPLE,
13 I APPRECIATE AND SUPPORT EFFORTS TO
14 MAINTAIN AND PRESERVE WILDLIFE,
15 INCLUDING THE PENINSULAR BIGHORN
16 SHEEP IN THE SANTA ROSA MOUNTAINS.
17 HOWEVER, I BELIEVE GRANTING A
18 NONDEVELOPMENT BUFFER AREA OVER
19 PRIVATE PROPERTY BELONGING TO OTHERS
20 AFTER THE INSTITUTE FREELY DECIDED,
21 IN 1982, TO LOCATE ITS FACILITIES AND
22 OPERATIONS IN AN AREA ZONED FOR
23 RESIDENTIAL USE IS AN INJUSTICE AND
24 VIOLATES MY RIGHTS AS A HOMEOWNER THAT
25 HAS LIVED IN THE AREA FOR SEVERAL YEARS.
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223
17 1 "WHEN THE INSTITUTE WAS BEING
2 FORMED, IT SOUGHT SUPPORT OF THE
3 COMMUNITY, AND THE COMMUNITY AND ITS
4 NEIGHBORS RESPONDED WILLINGLY. OF
5 COURSE, NO ONE RAISED OBJECTIONS
6 BECAUSE EVERYONE JOINED IN THE SPIRIT
7 OF SUPPORT AND COOPERATION, AND NO
8 ONE WAS ADVISED THAT THE INSTITUTE
9 ONE DAY WOULD BE SEEKING TO LIMIT OR
10 PREVENT DEVELOPMENT ON ADJOINING
11 PROPERTIES.
12 "FOR THE INSTITUTE NOW TO
13 DEMAND A BUFFER AREA IS UNCONSCION-
14 ABLE IN LIGHT OF THE INSTITUTE'S PAST
15 CONDUCT, PARTICULARLY DURING ITS
16 FORMATIVE YEARS. IF THE INSTITUTE
17 REQUIRES A NONDEVELOPMENT BUFFER TO
18 CONTINUE TO CONDUCT ITS OPERATION, THE
19 BUFFER SHOULD NOT ADVERSELY AFFECT MY
20 HOME AND MY PROPERTY. IF A BUFFER IS
21 REQUIRED, CAN'T THE BUFFER BE WHOLLY
22 CONTAINED WITHIN THE BLM LAND CONVEYED
23 TO THE INSTITUTE?
24 "AN ALTERNATIVE WHICH MAY MERIT
25 FURTHER CONSIDERATION WOULD BE THE
MINUTES
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224
17 1 RELOCATION OF THE INSTITUTE FACILITIES
2 TO A MORE REMOTE AREA MORE COMPATIBLE
3 AND CONDUCIVE TO THE FACILITY'S OPERA-
4 TIONS AND THE SURVIVAL OF THE SHEEP.
5 "RESPECTFULLY, I REQUEST THAT YOU
6 CONSIDER AND PROTECT THE INTERESTS OF
7 ADJOINING PROPERTY OWNERS WHO HAVE A
8 REASONABLE EXPECTATION AND RIGHT TO
9 DEVELOP THEIR PROPERTY WITHOUT THE
10 IMPOSITION OF A NONDEVELOPABLE BUFFER
11 AREA.
12 "SINCERELY, WILLIAM STEWART."
13 ALSO, FOR THE GAGNON INTERESTS, ET AL., I'D
14 LIKE TO MAKE JUST A SHORT STATEMENT.
15 AT THE JULY PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING, KENT
16 ROBERTS SAID THAT JIM HAYHOE SHOULD HAVE CHECKED OUT THE
17 NEEDS OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE FOR A BUFFER BEFORE HE
18 BOUGHT HIS PROPERTY IN 1989, AND THAT IT IS JUST CUSTOMARY
19 FOR DEVELOPERS TO EXPECT TO HAVE TO PROVIDE THESE BUFFERS
20 WITHIN THEIR PROJECT.
21 WELL, I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT WE ARE NOT
22 DEVELOPERS, AND WE OWN THE LAND IMMEDIATELY NEXT TO THE
23 INSTITUTE, NOT JIM HAYHOE. WE ARE MOSTLY AFFECTED BY
24 THEIR DEMANDS FOR A BUFFER, NOT JIM. THEY WANT 120 ACRES
25 OF JIM'S PROPERTY, BUT THEY WANT ALL OF OURS.
18
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EXHIBIT 'A'
225
18 1 WE OWNED THE PROPERTY FIVE YEARS BEFORE THE
2 INSTITUTE STARTED THEIR OPERATION, AND NOW THEY'RE TELLING
3 US WE CAN'T USE OUR LAND. HOW IS THAT FAIR?
4 JIM AT LEAST MET WITH THEM TO SEE IF THEY HAD A
5 PROBLEM WITH THIS PROJECT BEFORE HE BOUGHT HIS LAND, BUT
6 THEY DID NOT TELL US THAT THEY NEEDED A BUFFER.
7 WE WERE -- NO. ACTUALLY, MR. DEL GAGNON WAS AT
8 THE RIVERSIDE PLANNING COMMISSION HEARING WHEN THEY GOT
9 THEIR ZONING. WE DID NOT STAND UP AND OPPOSE THEIR
10 PROJECT BECAUSE THEY TOLD THE PLANNING COMMISSION THAT
11 THEY WERE AWARE OF THE OTHER PROJECTS AROUND THEM AND THAT
12 THEY DID NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THEM. WE HAVE THE
13 MINUTES HERE TONIGHT FOR THOSE WHO WERE QUESTIONING
14 EXACTLY WHAT WAS SAID.
15 WHEN THE INSTITUTE BUILT THEIR PENS, THEY
16 DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE EFFORT TO MEET WITH US TO TELL US
17 THAT THEIR PENS WOULD REQUIRE A BUFFER, AND NOW THEY WANT
18 A BUFFER THAT WOULD INCLUDE ALL OF OUR PROPERTY. AND WE
19 JUST WANT TO KNOW HOW THEY CAN TELL ALL OF THESE PEOPLE
20 THAT THE PROBLEM IS JIM HAYHOE WHEN THEY HAVEN'T EVEN
21 STARTED TO CONSIDER THE IMPACT OF ALL OF THIS ON US AND
22 THE OTHER SMALL LANDOWNERS AROUND THEM.
23 END OF STATEMENT. THANK YOU.
24 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
25 ///
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EXHIBIT "A'
226
18 1 MS. SCRIVENER: GOOD MORNING.
2 MR. MAYOR AND MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL, LADIES
3 AND GENTLEMEN.
4 I REPRESENT FRIENDS OF THE BIGHORN.
5 MAYOR SNYDER: WE NEED YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS, PLEASE.
6 MS. SCRIVENER: OH. OF COURSE YOU DO. I KEEP
7 FORGETTING THAT.
8 MY NAME IS BARBIE SCRIVENER. I RESIDE AT 2970
9 LIVMOR AVENUE IN PALM SPRINGS.
10 AND I AM A FRIEND REPRESENTING THE BIGHORN
11 SHEEP AND OF MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT I'VE SPOKEN TO TODAY
12 AS COLLECTING NAMES ON THE PETITION. WE HAVE OVER 3,000,
13 APPROXIMATELY, AND TWO OF US COLLECTED ANOTHER 191 NAMES
14 IN A FEW HOURS.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: I THINK THAT MAYBE YOU'RE HAVING A
16 LITTLE PROBLEM HERE. WE'RE TAKING TESTIMONY IN FAVOR OF
17 THIS PROJECT.
18 MS. SCRIVENER: YEAH. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. I
19 HAVE ALL THESE WRITTEN IN FAVOR OF. WE HAVE 3,000 NAMES,
20 PLUS 191 IN FAVOR OF. AND I JUST WANT TO SAY --
21 MAYOR SNYDER: IN FAVOR OF WHAT?
22 MS. SCRIVENER: IN FAVOR OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
23 MAYOR SNYDER: WELL, YOU'RE IN THE WRONG PLACE.
24 WE'RE TAKING TESTIMONY IN FAVOR OF THE PROJECT.
25 MS. SCRIVENER: OH, YOU ARE? THIS IS FOR THE
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT "A'
227
18 1 BIGHORN.
2 MAYOR SNYDER: WELL, WHY DON'T YOU GO AHEAD AND
3 FINISH.
4 MS. SCRIVENER: CAN I? ENGLISH PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW
5 ANY SENSE, ANYWAY.
6 ALL RIGHT. SO I'M TALKING ABOUT SAVING THE
7 SHEEP. AM I ALLOWED TO, MR. MAYOR?
8 MAYOR SNYDER: GO AHEAD.
9 MS. SCRIVENER: BRIEFLY.
10 MAYOR SNYDER: WE'VE BEEN THROUGH IT. WHY NOT?
11 MS. SCRIVENER: ALL RIGHT. HERE WE GO.
12 IT IS FOR US, AS INDIVIDUALS, TO ACT
13 RESPONSIVELY. WE MUST PRESERVE THE ECOSYSTEM OF HUMANITY
14 TO PROCTECTING THE ENDANGERED SPECIES, ONE OF WHICH IS THE
15 BIGHORN SHEEP. EXTINCTION OF THE INSTITUTE WOULD
16 CONTRIBUTE TO AN EFFECT OF THE WHOLE OF OUR SOCIETY'S
17 FUTURE.
18 AS WE PONDER THE TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES OF OUR
19 TIME, LET US CONSIDER THE PREVALENCE OF AUTOIMMUNE
20 DISORDERS AND RETROVIRUSES. THROUGH RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT
21 AND CARING AND SHARING, POSSIBLY WE CAN OVERCOME THE
22 ADVERSITY OF DISEASE.
23 AND IF I CAN QUOTE FROM CHIEF SEATTLE IN 19 --
24 1854. I BEG YOUR PARDON. HE SAYS, "WHAT IS MAN WITHOUT
25 THE BEASTS? IF ALL THE BEASTS WERE GONE, MAN WOULD DIE
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228
18 1 FROM A GREAT LONELINESS OF THE SPIRIT. FOR WHATEVER
2 HAPPENS TO THE BEASTS SOON HAPPENS TO MAN."
3 SO, PLEASE, LET US ALLOW A BUFFER ZONE BETWEEN
4 MAN'S HOUSE AND THE BIGHORN SHEEP'S HOME, AND FOR JUST
5 THIS AMOUNT OF BUFFER ZONE THAT MR. JIM HAYHOE HAS TO
6 OFFER, I THINK THAT HE COULD POSSIBLY ALLOW THAT. THAT
7 WOULD BE VERY NICE IF HE COULD, AND THE SAFECO COMPANY.
8 AND THANK ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE
9 COACHELLA VALLEY TO SUPPORT THOSE SHEEP, BECAUSE THEY ARE
10 BEAUTIFUL AND THEY ADD TO THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE HOUSES
11 NEED TO LOOK ON THE SHEEP TOO, AS WELL AS THE LAND.
12 AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. THANK YOU.
13 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
14 ONCE AGAIN, I WILL TAKE THE TESTIMONY OF THOSE
15 WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF THE PROJECT; NAMELY, THE ALTA MIRA.
16 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.)
17 MAYOR SNYDER: ONCE AGAIN, ANYBODY WHO WOULD CARE TO
18 TESTIFY IN FAVOR OF THIS PROJECT.
19 MR. LUNDEEN: GOOD MORNING. MY NAME IS PAUL LUNDEEN.
20 I'M A PROPERTY OWNER AND RESIDENT HERE IN PALM DESERT.
21 I'D RATHER BE AT HOME WITH MY WIFE AND KIDS,
22 BUT I GUESS THEY'RE KIND OF THE REASON THAT I'M STANDING
23 UP HERE NOW.
24 WE CAME TO PALM DESERT ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO,
25 AND WE LIKE PALM DESERT BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE BALANCED.
19
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229
_9 1 THERE'S GROWTH, THERE'S OPPORTUNITY, AND AT THE SAME TIME
2 THERE'S BEAUTY. THERE'S GOOD THINGS.
3 AND THE LEADERSHIP, YOU, THE COUNCIL AND --
4 MAYOR AND COUNCIL OF THE CITY, ARE THE REASON. AND YOUR
5 PREDECESSORS ARE THE REASON WE'VE HAVE THAT BALANCE AND
6 THAT BEAUTY.
7 I SPEAK IN FAVOR TONIGHT -- I SPEAK IN FAVOR OF
8 THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT BECAUSE, IN MY JUDGMENT, IT'S THAT
9 BALANCE. THE DEVELOPER'S WORKED HARD ON IT. IT SEEMS TO
10 ME, IT'S THERE AS A PACKAGE. I STAND IN FAVOR OF IT.
11 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
12 MS. LINDELEF: MAY I SPEAK?
13 MY NAME IS HELEN LINDELEF, AND I LIVE AT INDIAN
14 SPRINGS MOBILE HOME PARK.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: COULD YOU REPEAT YOUR NAME?
16 MS. LINDELEF: HELEN LINDELEF. I LIVE AT INDIAN
17 SPRINGS IN PALM DESERT.
18 I'M IN FAVOR OF THE ALTA MIRA DEVELOPMENT
19 SIMPLY FOR THE REASON THAT THEY BOUGHT THE PROPERTY IN
20 GOOD FAITH. AND THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
21 AND IF YOU CAN'T BUY PROPERTY AND DEVELOP IT, THEN THINGS
22 ARE PRETTY BAD.
23 THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY.
24 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
25 ANYONE ELSE WHO WOULD CARE TO TESTIFY IN FAVOR
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EDIT 'A'
230
19 1 OF THE PROJECT? IN FAVOR OF THE PROJECT.
2 THEN WE SHALL TAKE TESTIMONY, NOW, FROM PEOPLE
3 WHO ARE IN OPPOSITION TO THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT. TESTIMONY
4 IN OPPOSITION.
5 MS. CRAIG: MY NAME IS KAY CRAIG. I LIVE AT
6 72-992 BEL AIR ROAD.
7 NATURALLY, I'VE BEEN WORKING FOR THE BIGHORN
8 SHEEP. AND, ACTUALLY, I AM NOT AN ENEMY OF ANY
9 DEVELOPMENT. BUT I HAVE TRAVELED VERY WIDELY ON ALL FIVE
10 CONTINENTS, AND I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN AFRICA IN THE BIG
11 GAME PARKS OF SERENGETI, NGORGONO AND THE RIFT VALLEY.
12 AND I HAVE SEEN WHAT THE -- WHAT THE VARIOUS ZONES FOR
13 PICKING UP ALL THE LANDS AND OTHER ANIMALS, WILD ANIMALS,
14 THROUGHOUT AFRICA HAS KEPT THE HERD GOING FOR YEARS AND
15 YEARS. PEOPLE COME THERE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD TO SEE
16 THESE WILD ANIMALS OF VARIOUS SORTS.
17 AND WE COULD HAVE THE -- I KNOW, FROM MY
18 FRIENDS IN LOS ANGELES, THAT THE FIRST THING ON THEIR
19 AGENDA, AND ALL MY FRIENDS FROM THE MIDWEST AS THEY COME
20 OUT HERE, IS TO SEE THE BIGHORN SHEEP. IT'S A DRAWING
21 CARD FOR PALM DESERT. AND I'M QUITE SURPRISED THAT THE
22 CITY COUNCIL ISN'T AWARE OF THAT.
23 AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT TO BE LEARNED ABOUT
24 THE BIGHORN SHEEP THAT MANY OF YOU HAVE PASSED OVER.
25 YOU'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT IT. BUT IT IS A DRAWING CARD,
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EXHIBIT 'A"
231
19 1 AND IT IS HELPFUL TO YOUR CITY. AND I HAVEN'T LIVED HERE
2 JUST SIX MONTHS, I'VE LIVED HERE FOR 32 YEARS.
3 THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.
4 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
5 MR. HODGES: HI. MY NAME IS DALE HODGES. I LIVE AT
6 73-373 COUNTRY CLUB DRIVE, PALM DESERT.
7 I GUESS I WOULD HAVE STARTED A COUPLE HOURS AGO
8 ASKING A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS. THE FIRST ONE THAT COMES TO
9 MY MIND IS WHEN IS A BUFFER ZONE NOT A BUFFER ZONE?
10 I GOT A LITTLE CONFUSED WITH SOME OF THE
11 AMENDMENTS THAT WERE MADE ABOUT WE'RE GOING TO GIVE IT
12 THREE YEARS AS A BUFFER ZONE, AND IF NOBODY BUYS IT OR
13 SOMETHING, THEN WE'RE GOING TO DEVELOP IT, ANYWAY. I
14 WOULD ASK THE COUNCIL TO CONSIDER THAT.
15 MY PRIMARY PURPOSE IN COMING HERE THIS EVENING
16 HAS TO DO WITH TRYING TO CORRELATE SOME OF THE ECONOMIC
17 IMPACT OF NOT DEVELOPING ALTA MIRA. WE HAVE AN
18 ILLUSTRATION OF A BILLION DOLLAR INPUT OVER A TEN-YEAR
19 PERIOD OF TIME THAT WAS GOING TO IMPACT -- HOWEVER IT WAS
20 GOING TO DO IT.
21 I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT TO THE COUNCIL THAT IT'S
22 MY UNDERSTANDING THAT AS LITTLE AS FOUR AND A HALF YEARS
23 AGO, FIVE YEARS AGO, YOUR NUMBER ONE INDUSTRY HERE IN THE
24 COACHELLA VALLEY WAS AGRICULTURE AND THAT NOW, TODAY,
25 TOURISM IS GENERATING ABOUT A BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF
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232
19 1 INDUSTRY A YEAR HERE AND AGRICULTURE CLOSER TO $400
2 MILLION.
3 I THINK YOU CAN SEE THAT TOURISM WILL CERTAINLY
4 BE GROWING AND GROWING AND THAT, PER THE LADY'S
5 SUGGESTION, PALM DESERT DESERVES A TOURIST ATTRACTION SUCH
6 AS THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
7 THE DAKOTAS HAVE MT. RUSHMORE, SAN FRANCISCO
8 HAS THE GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE, AND I'D LIKE TO SPECULATE THAT
9 SOMETHING OF A -- SOMETHING AS ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY
10 AND PROGRESSIVE AS THIS BIGHORN INSTITUTE AND A PRESERVE
11 SUCH AS THE ONE THAT -- THE GENTLEMAN SAYS THAT HE CAN'T
12 DO BUSINESS WITH A BUFFER ZONE. SO IF YOU ALLOW THE
13 BUFFER ZONE, HE'S DOWN THE ROAD. SO I'M FOR A GREAT
14 EXPANSE OF LANDS FOR PEOPLE TO COME SEE AND APPRECIATE.
15 THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.
16 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
17 ANYONE ELSE WHO WOULD CARE TO TESTIFY IN
18 OPPOSITION TO THE ALTA MIRA PROGRAM? TESTIMONY IN
19 OPPOSITION.
20 MR. TYLER: GOOD MORNING. MY NAME IS BOB TYLER. I
21 RESIDE AT 73-042 SKYWARD WAY IN PALM DESERT.
22 I AM IN FAVOR OF JIM RICHARDS -- OR -- I'M
23 SORRY -- JIM HAYHOE'S DEVELOPMENT. THERE'S TOO MANY JIMS
24 HERE. HOWEVER, I DO SUPPORT THE BUFFER ZONE, AS
25 RECOMMENDED IN THE E.I.R. I GUESS I COULD GO ON, BUT I
20
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233
20 1 THINK EVERYTHING HAS BEEN PRETTY WELL GONE OVER.
2 ONE THING I DO WANT TO SAY IS THAT I'VE TRIED
3 TO BE WITH THE PROJECT FROM THE FIRST. I BELIEVE IT WAS A
4 YEAR AND A HALF AGO OR SO, I STARTED GOING TO THE PLANNING
5 COMMISSION MEETINGS BECAUSE I WAS INTERESTED IN THE
6 PROJECT.
7 AND I HAVE TO SAY, AS A RESIDENT OF PALM DESERT
8 AND A VOTER -- AND I WAS BORN HERE IN THE COACHELLA
9 VALLEY. I HAVE LIVED HERE MOST OF MY LIFE -- THAT I'M
10 VERY UNHAPPY WITH THE CALIBER OF WHAT WENT ON IN SOME OF
11 THE PLANNING COMMISSION MEETINGS.
12 I REALLY THINK THAT ONE OF THE REASONS THAT
13 WE'RE HERE SO LATE TONIGHT -- JIM HAYHOE, HERE, HE'S SPENT
14 HALF A MILLION DOLLARS PROBABLY, AND I KNOW THE BIGHORN
15 INSTITUTE HAS SPENT LOTS AND LOTS OF MONEY. I THINK IF
16 THE PLANNING COMMISSION HAD HAD THEIR ACT TOGETHER OR DONE
17 A MORE PROFESSIONAL JOB OF WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO,
18 YOU GUYS WOULDN'T HAVE HAD ALL THIS HASSLE TO PUT UP WITH.
19 AND THERE WAS ONE REMARK BY ONE OF THE
20 COMMISSIONERS WHO, TO QUOTE HIM -- HE REALLY BUGGED ME,
21 WAS JIM RICHARDS. HE MADE THOSE -- HE THREW THE E.I.R.
22 DOWN AT ONE POINT AND SAID IT WAS A PIECE OF GARBAGE, AND
23 HE STARTED YELLING AT PEOPLE.
24 IT GOT TO WHERE SOME OF THE PEOPLE FROM THE
25 BIGHORN INSTITUTE GOT UP HERE TO TALK, AND THEY WERE
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20 1 SHAKING IN THEIR BOOTS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW IF THIS
2 GUY WAS GOING TO LEAP OUT AT THEM AT ANY MOMENT. I THINK
3 IT HURT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE, AND I THINK IT HURT JIM
4 HAYHOE.
5 WE DIDN'T WANT THIS TO GO ON FOR TWO YEARS.
6 THIS IS CRAZY. AND IT SPENT -- I DON'T KNOW. THERE'S
7 PROBABLY BEEN $1 MILLION SPENT ON THIS THING. AND I THINK
8 IT'S THE FAULT OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION. I'M SORRY.
9 THANK YOU.
10 MAYOR SNYDER: ANYONE ELSE WHO WOULD CARE TO TESTIFY
11 IN OPPOSITION?
12 ANYONE ELSE?
13 MS. OLDT: I WOULDN'T SAY MY COMMENTS ARE IN
14 OPPOSITION OR IN FAVOR, BUT RATHER NEUTRAL.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: I NEED YOUR FULL NAME AND ADDRESS.
16 MS. OLDT: LYNN WILSON OLDT, O—L—D—T, REPRESENTING
17 THE U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE.
18 MAYOR SNYDER: SAY IT AGAIN. I DON'T THINK --
19 MS. OLDT: LYNN WILSON OLDT, O—L—D—T.
20 MAYOR SNYDER: OLDT?
21 MS. OLDT: YES.
22 MAYOR SNYDER: O—L --
23 MS. OLDT: -- D—T.
24 MAYOR SNYDER: O—L—D—T.
25 MS. OLDT: THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE HAS
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20 1 PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED LETTERS OF COMMENT TO THE CITY OF PALM
2 DESERT REGARDING THE PROPOSED ALTA MIRA COUNTRY CLUB, AND
3 WE CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE POSITIONS STATED IN THOSE
4 LETTERS.
5 THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF MY ATTENDING THIS
6 MEETING TONIGHT, THIS MORNING, IS TO SUMMARIZE THE
7 SERVICE'S POSITION RELATIVE TO THE BIGHORN SHEEP ISSUE AND
8 TO BE AVAILABLE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS REGARDING THE
9 SERVICE'S ROLE OR RECOMMENDATIONS REGARDING THIS PROJECT.
10 I'M ALSO AVAILABLE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS
11 REGARDING THE POSSIBILITY OF A FUTURE FEDERAL LISTING OF
12 THE BIGHORN SHEEP.
13 OTHER SERVICE CONCERNS, SUCH AS THE POTENTIAL
14 IMPACTS TO THE DESERT WASH, HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY DISCUSSED
15 IN OUR LETTERS AND MAY BE ADDRESSED FURTHER AT A LATER
16 STAGE OF THE PROJECT.
17 THE SERVICE INITIATED A STATUS REVIEW OF THE
18 PENINSULAR BIGHORN SHEEP IN LATE 1990. THAT REVIEW IS
19 BEING COMPLETED AND A RECOMMENDATION HAS BEEN PROVIDED TO
20 OUR REGIONAL OFFICE REGARDING THE APPROPRIATENESS OF
21 LISTING THE BIGHORN AS THREATENED OR ENDANGERED UNDER THE
22 FEDERAL ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT. UNFORTUNATELY, I'M UNABLE
23 TO DISCUSS THE SPECIFIC NATURE OF THAT RECOMMENDATION AT
24 THIS TIME.
25 IN MID-JULY, THE SERVICE RECEIVED A PETITION
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20 1 FROM THE SIERRA CLUB TO EMERGENCY LIST THE BIGHORN AS AN
2 ENDANGERED SPECIES, AND THE SERVICE WILL RESPOND TO THAT
3 REQUEST ACCORDINGLY.
4 BECAUSE THE BIGHORN IS NOT FEDERALLY THREATENED
5 OR ENDANGERED AT THIS TIME, OUR COMMENTS ARE PROVIDED AS
6 TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE ONLY.
7 THE SERVICE'S POSITION HAS BEEN AND REMAINS TO
8 BE THAT WKICH PROVIDES FOR THE LONG-TERM NEEDS OF THE
9 PENINSULAR BIGHORN SHEEP. LONG-TERM SURVIVAL OF THE
10 BIGHORN IS DEPENDENT UPON REVERSAL OF THE POPULATION
11 DECLINE AND ELIMINATION OF THREATS TO ITS SURVIVAL.
12 THROUGH OUR REVIEW OF THE SPECIES' STATUS, WE
13 ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE CURRENT CRITICAL POPULATION
14 DECLINE. THE SERVICE HAS RECOGNIZED THE VALUE OF THE
15 BIGHORN INSTITUTE TO DATE IN CONDUCTING RESEARCH AND
16 SUPPLEMENTING THE WILD HERD. YET IT IS CONCEIVABLE TO US
17 THAT RECOVERY ACTIVITIES COULD BE CARRIED OUT AT A
18 DIFFERENT LOCATION OR BY DIFFERENT ENTITIES.
19 IN PROVIDING PREVIOUS COMMENTS TO THE CITY, WE
20 HAVE TAKEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT POSSIBLE ACTIVITIES
21 THAT COULD AID IN THE RECOVERY OF THE SPECIES. THE
22 SERVICE PREVIOUSLY OFFERED TWO ALTERNATIVES IN ADDITION TO
23 THE BUFFER RECOMMENDED BY THE BIOLOGICAL CONSULTANTS THAT
24 COULD PROVIDE LONG-TERM BENEFITS TO THE PENINSULAR BIGHORN
25 SHEEP. THESE ALTERNATIVES WERE: ONE, MOVING THE BIGHORN
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20 1 INSTITUTE'S FACILITIES TO ANOTHER LOCATION; AND, TWO,
2 PARTIAL MOVEMENT OF THE INSTITUTE, ALONG WITH ENHANCEMENT
3 OF EXISTING FACILITIES AND INCREASED RESEARCH
4 OPPORTUNITIES.
5 UNTIL EACH OF THESE ALTERNATIVES HAS BEEN
6 ADEQUATELY INVESTIGATED, THE SERVICE IS NOT IN A POSITION
7 TO RECOMMEND ONE AS BEING PREFERRED. FURTHERMORE, WE
8 DISCOURAGE THE CITY FROM ADOPTING EITHER OF THESE
9 ALTERNATIVES WITHOUT THOROUGH-3NVESTIGATION,.INCLUDING
10 WHETHER ADDITIONAL, SUITABLE LAND IS AVAILABLE AND WHETHER
11 FACILITY OPERATIONS WOULD PROVIDE A GREATER BENEFIT TO THE
12 BIGHORN THAN CURRENTLY ACHIEVED AT THE INSTITUTE.
13 I WOULD LIKE TO CLARIFY ONE POINT WITH REGARD
14 TO SUGGESTIONS THAT THE SERVICE WOULD SUPPORT A 400-YARD
15 BUFFER WITH THE PROVISION THAT THE PROJECT PROPONENT WOULD
16 PROVIDE FUNDS FOR RECOVERY ACTIVITIES.
17 IF INVESTIGATIONS INDICATE THAT A WILDING
18 FACILITY IS NEEDED TO HOUSE LAMBING OPERATIONS, DISCOURAGE
19 HUMAN HABITUATION, AND CONDUCT OTHER RECOVERY ACTIVITIES,
20 THEN A REDUCED BUFFER MAY BE APPROPRIATE BECAUSE SENSITIVE
21 PORTIONS OF THE INSTITUTE WOULD BE LOCATED ELSEWHERE.
22 IF IT IS DETERMINED THAT RECOVERY ACTIVITIES
23 ARE BEST ACCOMPLISHED AT THE PRESENT INSTITUTE LOCATION OR
24 NO OTHER SUITABLE LOCATION IS FOUND, THEN THE SERVICE MAY
25 NOT SUPPORT A DECREASE IN THE BUFFER SIZE.
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1 IN SUMMARY, THE SERVICE IS CONCERNED ABOUT THE
2 STATUS OF THE BIGHORN, AND WE WILL SUPPORT THE ALTERNATIVE
3 THAT BEST SUITS THE BIOLOGICAL NEEDS OF THE BIGHORN.
4 HOWEVER, IN THE SERVICE'S OPINION, THE ALTERNATIVES
5 REGARDING POSSIBLE MOVEMENT OF THE INSTITUTE HAVE NOT BEEN
6 THOROUGHLY INVESTIGATED, AND WE ARE UNABLE TO ASSESS
7 WHETHER ONE OF THESE ALTERNATIVES WOULD PROVIDE A GREATER
8 LONG-TERM BENEFIT TO THE SHEEP.
9 THANK YOU.
10 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
11 ONE LAST CALL FOR ANYONE WHO WOULD CARE TO GIVE
12 TESTIMONY IN OPPOSITION TO THE PROJECT. IN OPPOSITION TO
13 THE PROJECT.
14 MR. KALDENBURG: I'M RUSS KALDENBURG. I'M THE AREA
15 MANAGER WITH THE LOCAL BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT OFFICE AT
16 400 SOUTH FARRELL IN PALM SPRINGS.
17 MAYOR SNYDER: I'M SORRY. DID YOU GET THE NAME,
18 MARY?
19 MR. KALDENBURG: RUSS KALDENBERG, BUREAU OF LAND
20 MANAGEMENT.
21 WHAT I'D JUST LIKE TO TALK ABOUT -- JUST TO
22 TAKE A MOMENT FOLLOWING THE U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE
23 SERVICE'S DISCUSSION, AND I THINK IT FITS IN WELL.
24 BACK IN 1982, WHEN THE INSTITUTE CAME TO US
25 LOOKING FOR A LOCATION, WE THOUGHT IT WAS A GREAT IDEA TO
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1 HELP SAVE THE BIGHORN SHEEP, TO HELP IN RESEARCH, HELP DO
2 WHAT WE COULDN'T DO BECAUSE WE'RE A LAND MANAGEMENT
3 AGENCY, WE'RE NOT A WILDLIFE AGENCY.
4 WE RENTED LAND. OUR LAND PATTERN IS NOT
5 PERFECT. AS SOME OF YOU KNOW, WE'RE TRYING TO CONSOLIDATE
6 THOSE MOUNTAINS BEHIND YOU, CONSOLIDATE THEM FOR THE
7 BENEFIT OF, NOT ONLY THE PEOPLE OF THIS VALLEY, BUT OF THE
8 ENTIRE NATION.
9 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE FOUND A LOCATION THAT WE
10 THOUGHT WAS ACCEPTABLE TOO, AND WE WERE EXCITED ABOUT IT.
11 AS A MATTER OF FACT, WE'RE STILL EXCITED ABOUT IT. WE
12 LIKE THE LOCATION. WE THINK IT PROVIDES THEM SOME
13 VISIBILITY AS WELL AS THE RESEARCH FACILITIES THEY NEED.
14 WE PATENTED THE LAND TO THEM IN 1989. AND WHAT
15 THAT MEANS IS THAT WE TRANSFERRED OWNERSHIP. IT WAS THE
16 FIRST TIME IT EVER LEFT THE UNITED STATES PUBLIC DOMAIN.
17 AND IT HAS A REVERSIONARY CLAUSE IN IT THAT SAYS IF THEY
18 DON'T USE IT FOR THE REASON IN WHICH THEY GOT IT, FOR A
19 VERY DISCOUNT PRICE, IT REVERTS BACK TO THE UNITED STATES.
20 THE UNITED STATES THEN HAS TO MANAGE THE LAND AGAIN OR
21 DISPOSE OF IT, WHATEVER IS PLANNED TO DO WITH IT.
22 SO WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT NOW AND LOOKING AT
23 TOMORROW IN THE MEETING IS AGAIN SCANNING THE SANTA ROSA
24 MOUNTAINS TO SEE IF THERE IS ANOTHER SUITABLE LOCATION FOR
25 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
MS
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1 SINCE 1982, WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THE WILDERNESS
2 BILL HAS GONE FORWARD. THE PRESIDENT NOW HAS THE BLM'S
3 VERSION OF THE WILDERNESS BILL ON HIS DESK. THE CRANSTON
4 BILL, THE LEVINE BILL IS IN CONGRESS NOW. HOPEFULLY,
5 THEY'LL COME UP WITH A COMPROMISE OF SOME SORT.
6 BUT EVERYTHING SOUTH OF 74, EVERYTHING FROM
7 LA QUINTA DOWN TO THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY BORDER AND THE
8 IMPERIAL COUNTY BORDER IS DESTINED TO BE WILDERNESS. THAT
9 MEANS THAT ALL OF THAT LAND IS UNAVAILABLE FOR THE BIGHORN
10 INSTITUTE TO LOOK AT. NOTHING CAN OCCUR THERE THAT WOULD
11 IMPINGE AND INFRINGE UPON THE WILDERNESS DESIGNATION.
12 SO YOU'VE BASICALLY ELIMINATED ONE-HALF TO
13 TWO-THIRDS OF THE RANGE IN WHICH THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE CAN
14 LOOK. FOR ALL PURPOSES, HE HAS TO LOOK FROM HIGHWAY 74 TO
15 WINDY POINT IF HE'S GOING TO LOOK IN THE SANTA ROSA
16 MOUNTAINS.
17 WHAT I GUESS THE BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT
18 WOULD SIMPLY LIKE TO TELL YOU AND LIKE TO OFFER IS THAT
19 WE'RE PROUD OF OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU. WE HAVE A REAL
20 PARTNERSHIP WITH THE CITY OF PALM DESERT AND WE'RE REAL
21 PROUD OF THAT. AND WE'RE REALLY PROUD OF OUR RELATIONSHIP
22 WITH THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE.
23 AND OUR HOPE IS THAT WHATEVER TOUGH DECISION
24 YOU HAVE TO MAKE ALLOWS THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE TO STAY
25 WHERE IT IS, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE; ALLOWS FOR THE BIGHORN
1
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2
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241
1 SHEEP TO AUGMENT THEIR POPULATION; AND ALLOWS FOR THIS
2 TOURISM, THIS GOOD FEELING ABOUT THE MOUNTAINS, THE
3 SENSITIVITY OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS ENVIRONMENT FOR THE
4 MOUNTAIN RANGE, FOR THE BIGHORN SHEEP; ALLOWS THEM TO
5 MAXIMIZE, MAYBE, THE POPULATION AGAIN.
6 SO PLEASE BE CONSCIENTIOUS. WE'LL HELP YOU IN
7 ANY WAY WE CAN. WE DON'T HAVE BIGHORN SHEEP EXPERTS ON
8 OUR STAFF, BUT WE'VE GOT LAND EXPERTS, WE'VE GOT EVERYBODY
9 THAT I THINK THAT YOU CAN USE. AND OUR STAFF IS AVAILABLE
10 TO YOU GUYS. I'M AVAILABLE TO HELP YOU, TOO. SO PLEASE
11 BE CONSCIENTIOUS, CALL US. WE STAND WILLING TO HELP.
12 THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.
13 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU, SIR.
14 THERE'S NO ONE ELSE WHO CARES TO TESTIFY AT
15 THIS TIME IN THE MORNING?
16 IF NOT, I WILL CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING, BUT --
17 NO. I WAS THINKING I WOULD CLOSE AND THEN HAVE YOUR
18 REBUTTAL, BUT, NO, I BELIEVE THAT I HAVE TO KEEP THE
19 PUBLIC HEARING OPEN FOR YOUR REBUTTAL, FOR ALL ASPECTS OF
20 THIS EVENING'S MEETING.
21 MR. HAYHOE: THANK YOU, MR. MAYOR.
22 I'M NOT GOING TO ATTEMPT TO PLOW ALL THIS
23 GROUND THAT WE'VE BEEN THROUGH FOR THE LAST SIX HOURS. I
24 DON'T HAVE IT IN ME TO DO IT, AND I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE
25 IT IN YOU TO HEAR IT, EITHER. SO I THINK ALL THE NOTES
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1 AND EVERYTHING WILL JUST HAVE TO PASS. BUT THERE ARE A
2 COUPLE OF THINGS I WOULD LIKE TO SAY.
3 THERE ARE THOSE WHO, I THINK, WHO WOULD HAVE US
4 ALL BELIEVE THAT OUR PROJECT MEANS THAT THAT CURVE
5 CONTINUES DOWN AND IT'S THE END OF THE BIGHORN, BUT SUCH
6 IS REALLY NOT THE CASE. I THINK WE ALL KNOW THAT, TOO.
7 THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THE HERD IS
8 DECLINING. THE INSTITUTE IS DOING SOME REAL GOOD WORK UP
9 THERE, AND THE HERD -- AND THE WORK THAT THE INSTITUTE IS
10 DOING IS NOT KEEPING UP WITH THE DECLINE.
11 A QUOTE FROM THE SUPERVISE -- THE OFFICE
12 SUPERVISOR'S LETTER FROM THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF
13 THE INTERIOR, FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE. IT SAYS IN THERE
14 THAT THE NUMBER -- AND I'M NOT GOING TO READ THE WHOLE
15 THING. I HAD A SECTION HIGHLIGHTED. I'LL JUST READ ONE
16 SENTENCE.
17 "ALTHOUGH THE INSTITUTE RELEASES
18 A NUMBER OF SHEEP EACH YEAR TO SUPPLE-
19 MENT THE WILD POPULATION, THE NUMBER OF
20 RELEASED SHEEP NEEDS TO BE INCREASED TO
21 REVERSE THE POPULATION DECLINE."
22 AND THEN THEY GO ON TO ALLUDE TO THE FACT --
23 NOT ALLUDE. THEY MENTION THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER
24 THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE BESIDES A BUFFER. AND THIS LETTER
25 IS IN YOUR FILE. IT'S DATED JULY THE 3RD. THEY THINK
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243
1 THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN A
2 BUFFER: RELOCATING AND INCREASING THE SIZE, GETTING A
3 WILDING PEN.
4 BECAUSE THESE ARE HABITUATED SHEEP UP THERE.
5 PHOTOGRAPHERS ARE IN THERE, NEWS PEOPLE ARE IN THERE, THE
6 INSTITUTE'S PEOPLE ARE IN THERE. AND THESE ARE HABITUATED
7 SHEEP. THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HABITUATED SHEEP,
8 CAPTIVE SHEEP, WILD SHEEP, AND ALL THAT. AND THERE'S NO
9 POINT IN GOING INTO ALL THAT RIGHT NOW.
10 BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT OUR PROJECT
11 IS NOT GOING TO HAVE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON IT. I FEEL
12 COMPELLED TO COMMENT ON WHAT THE FELLOW FROM THE COUNTY
13 SAID. WE WEREN'T NOTICED. WE DID EVERYTHING WE KNEW HOW
14 TO DO IN DUE DILIGENCE. WE WENT UP THERE AND MET WITH
15 HIM.
16 BUT HAD WE BEEN NOTICED, JUST LIKE THIS CITY
17 WAS NOTICED, WE WOULD NOT HAVE OBJECTED TO THEIR ZONE
18 CHANGE BECAUSE THEIR ZONE CHANGE APPLICATION INDICATED, AS
19 THEY DID IN THE PUBLIC HEARINGS IN RIVERSIDE, THAT THERE
20 WAS NO IMPACTS ON ANY OF ITS NEIGHBORS. IT WAS A
21 PERFECTLY ROUTINE ZONE CHANGE APPLICATION THAT, HAD WE ALL
22 GOTTEN IT JUST LIKE THE STAFF GOT IT, REVIEWED IT, NO
23 PROBLEM. NO POINT IN COMMENTING. JUST LIKE THESE OTHER
24 PROPERTY OWNERS.
25 SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S -- THAT'S WHAT I HAVE TO
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1 SAY ON THAT. I MEAN I THINK THAT -- THAT IS VERY MUCH OF
2 A SORE POINT WITH ME BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S THE CRUX OF
3 THE ISSUE. HAD WE KNOWN THERE WAS GOING TO BE A BUFFER
4 REQUIRED LIKE THIS, WE WOULDN'T HAVE BOUGHT THE LAND. AND
5 WE BOUGHT IT AND PAID CASH FOR IT.
6 SO NOW IT'S NOT A MATTER OF TRYING TO MAKE
7 MONEY UP THERE. I CAN ASSURE YOU OF THAT. IF WE WERE
8 TRYING TO MAXIMIZE THE FINANCIAL RETURN, WE WOULDN'T BE
9 TALKING ABOUT BUILDING A GOLF COURSE, INVESTING 65,
10 70 MILLION BUCKS, WE'D BE IN HERE TALKING ABOUT DOING
11 EIGHT OR 900 LOTS UP THERE, WHERE WE COULD DO 40 OR 50 A
12 YEAR, SELL THEM, AND GET SOME MONEY BACK, DO ANOTHER 40 OR
13 50 AND HAVE A COUPON CLIP FOR TEN YEARS. I CAN ASSURE YOU
14 WE WOULD NOT BE HERE, IN THIS ECONOMY, TALKING ABOUT DOING
15 A BEAUTIFUL PROJECT LIKE THIS.
16 AS TO THE BIOLOGISTS, THERE'S A DISPARITY AMONG
17 THE EXPERTS. THAT'S WHAT EVERYBODY IS SAYING, THEY'RE
18 SAYING, ALL THE BIOLOGISTS ARE SAYING. THE INSTITUTE SAYS
19 29 BIOLOGISTS SAID SO AND SO. WELL, IT'S NOT 29 THAT SAID
20 SO AND SO. IT'S NOT THE NUMBER OF BIOLOGISTS THAT THINK
21 THEY NEED A BUFFER OF "X" SIZE OR "X" SIZE, IT'S THE
22 QUALIFICATIONS AND THE EXPERIENCE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO KNOW
23 WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE BIGHORN HERD IN THE SANTA ROSA
24 MOUNTAINS THAT COUNTS.
25 A FELLOW FROM IDAHO DOESN'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING
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EXHIBIT 'A'
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1 ON DOWN HERE OR WHEREVER ELSE. AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE
2 THAT HAVE BEEN HERE SPEAKING ON OUR BEHALF HAVE BEEN FROM
3 OUT OF THE STATE, BUT THEY'VE HAD EXPERIENCE HERE IN THE
4 SANTA ROSAS WITH THE LIVING DESERT RESERVE.
5 SO, BASICALLY, ALL I CAN TELL YOU, I THINK YOU
6 ARE AWARE -- ALL OF YOU ARE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT WE HAVE
7 TRIED VERY HARD TO SETTLE THIS ISSUE. WE HAVE REDESIGNED
8 THE PROJECT, I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES.
9 WE HAVE HAD NUMEROUS, NUMEROUS MEETINGS WITH
10 THE INSTITUTE, THEIR LAWYERS AND MEMBERS OF THEIR BOARD OF
11 DIRECTORS. THE STATEMENT THAT ALL OF THE BOARD OF
12 DIRECTORS SUPPORT THIS BUFFER THING, I CAN GUARANTEE YOU
13 IS NOT TRUE. I WILL GUARANTEE YOU THAT. WHERE WERE THEY
14 TONIGHT? I KNOW THAT MOST OF THEM -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT
15 MOST THEM THINK, BUT I KNOW WHAT SOME OF THEM THINK.
16 SO, ANYWAY, I THINK IT'S BEST THAT WE CONCLUDE
17 THE PUBLIC HEARING AND LET YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION.
18 THANKS VERY MUCH.
19 MAYOR SNYDER: THANK YOU.
20 MR. HAYHOE: IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, I'LL ANSWER.
21 MR. ROBERTS: ARE WE ALLOWED TO CLOSE IT OUT ON THE
22 REBUTTAL, I GUESS?
23 MAYOR SNYDER: NOT LEGALLY, BUT I THINK THIS
24 MATTER -- IF IT'S IMPORTANT, IF YOU DO HAVE SOMETHING TO
25 SAY, WE'LL LISTEN TO IT.
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1 MR. ROBERTS: YEAH. IT IS IMPORTANT.
2 I TALKED -- AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE VERY GOOD
3 BOARD OF DIRECTOR MEMBERS, BUT THEY'RE ALL SO BUSY. I DID
4 TALK WITH ERNIE HAHN THIS MORNING, I GUESS ABOUT 7:30. HE
5 HAD A WEDDING TO COME TO TONIGHT, AND IT WAS A HARD
6 CHOICE, BUT HE COULD NOT MAKE IT. HE CANNOT ATTEND THE
7 MEETING AT 2:30 TOMORROW, BUT HE SAID HE WOULD BE READY TO
8 GO AT 9 O'CLOCK MONDAY MORNING. AND SO MAYBE WE'LL HAVE
9 TWO MEETINGS. AND HE GAVE ME GOOD INSTRUCTIONS OF WHAT I
10 SHOULD BE DOING TOMORROW IF WE HAVE THAT MEETING.
11 WE STILL THINK THAT MAKES SENSE, AND WE'D
12 CERTAINLY LIKE TO HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO TRY. AND THIS
13 PROJECT HAS NOW GONE -- HAS BEEN SET FOR TWO MORE YEARS.
14 I'D LIKE TO HOPE IT GOES A LITTLE BIT MORE LONGER IF WE
15 CAN SOLVE IT.
16 YEAH. IF YOU WANT TO -- YOU KNOW, IF WE COULD
17 RECONVENE AT 9 O'CLOCK MONDAY MORNING, WE CAN ALSO GET
18 AHOLD OF SOME OF OUR OTHER BOARD OF DIRECTOR MEMBERS TOO.
19 THEY CAN'T ALL BE HERE. WE HAVE A FAIRLY LARGE BOARD.
20 BUT WE STILL WANT TO GO FORWARD WITH THE MEEETING TOMORROW
21 TO LAY SOME THINGS ON THE TABLE. PERHAPS BOTH SIDES COULD
22 DISCUSS SOME THINGS.
23 MAYOR SNYDER: THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE HEARD YOU
24 WANTED A MEETING TOMORROW. YOU TALKED ABOUT A MEETING
25 SOMETIME.
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1 MR. ROBERTS: YES. WELL, THE ONE --
2 MAYOR SNYDER: I HAVEN'T MADE ANY ARRANGEMENTS TO
3 HAVE SUCH A MEETING, NOR HAVE I MADE ANY ARRANGEMENTS TO
4 HAVE SUCH A MEETING ON MONDAY.
5 MR. ROBERTS: WELL, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE TALKED
6 ABOUT MONDAY BECAUSE -- WELL, I THOUGHT WE TALKED ABOUT
7 THE MEETING YESTERDAY WHEN YOU -- MAYOR, WHEN YOU WERE
8 TALKING WITH LINDELL MARSH ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY --
9 MAYOR SNYDER: WE TALKED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF A
10 MEETING.
11 MR. ROBERTS: YES. WE'RE STILL HOPING --
12 MAYOR SNYDER: IT NEVER WENT ANY FURTHER THAN THAT.
13 MR. ROBERTS: OKAY.
14 MAYOR SNYDER: I DON'T KNOW. WE'LL HAVE TO TAKE THIS
15 UP WITH THE COUNCIL.
16 MR. GEOCARIS: I WOULD SUGGEST -- I DO HAVE ONE
17 TECHNICAL POINT. I MADE THE MISTAKE OF NOT GETTING A YES
18 OR NO.
19 YOUR HONOR, I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO GET THAT
20 FISH AND GAME DOCUMENT ON THE RECORD THAT ADDRESSES ALL
21 THIS HELICOPTER AND ELECTRIC PROD JUNK. I CAN DO THAT
22 TOMORROW BY FAX. AND WE WOULD LIKE MR. HAHN TO MAKE A
23 STATEMENT MONDAY MORNING.
24 SO WHAT WE'RE REQUESTING IS THAT I GET THAT ON
25 THE RECORD, WE HAVE A MEETING WITH ALL THESE INTERESTED
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248
1 PARTIES TOMORROW, AND YOU RECONVENE MONDAY FOR --
2 MAYOR SNYDER: WELL, I'M NOT SURE WHETHER THE
3 DEVELOPER WISHES TO CONTINUE -- I MEAN TO ATTEND THESE
4 MEETINGS OR NOT, BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT WE HAD AN
5 ADVERTISED MEETING HERE, PROPERLY ADVERTISED OVER SEVEN
6 DAYS, TO HOLD A MEETING HERE TONIGHT, AND THAT ANYBODY
7 THAT WOULD WANT TO TALK TO US, INVOLVED IN THE PROGRAM,
8 VERY MUCH SHOULD HAVE BEEN HERE.
9 I'D LIKE TO CLARIFY THIS BECAUSE I FEEL
10 STRONGLY ABOUT THIS, THAT THIS IS THE WAY OUR CITY
11 OPERATES. WE TRY TO BRING OUR PEOPLE TOGETHER AND LET
12 THEM ALL HEAR WHAT EVERYBODY HAS TO SAY, AND THEN WE'RE
13 FORCED TO MAKE A DECISION.
14 I DON'T LIKE THE IMPRESSION THAT THE DECISION
15 WE MAKE IS WHETHER THE SHEEP LIVE OR THE SHEEP DIE, OR
16 WE'LL BE RESPONSIBLE IF WE DON'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING
17 SOMEBODY HAS SAID, THAT THE SHEEP OR THE INSTITUTE WILL BE
18 IN TROUBLE.
19 I THINK ALL OF YOU KNOW THAT THE CITY HAS TRIED
20 TO TAKE A LEAD ROLE SINCE LAST JULY, WHEN WE CONTINUED
21 THIS MEETING. WE'VE DONE EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO HAVE
22 YOU PEOPLE MEET. THE MEETINGS YOU NOW WANT TO HOLD ARE
23 LATER THAN THIS TO GET TOGETHER AND FORM A COMPROMISE.
24 WE'VE TORN THIS CITY APART. WE'VE HAD PEOPLE
25 REALLY UPSET WITH EVERYBODY. IF YOU DON'T VOTE FOR THE
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249
1 SHEEP, YOU'RE A DIRTY DOG AND IF YOU DON'T VOTE FOR THE
2 ALTA MIRA, YOU'RE EVEN WORSE. I THINK THAT WE HAVE MADE A
3 GREAT EFFORT ON THE PART OF THE CITY. WE HAVE DONE
4 EVERYTHING WE KNOW TO TRY TO GET THESE PARTIES TOGETHER TO
5 COME UP WITH A SOLUTION.
6 QUITE FRANKLY, THE DEVELOPER HAS MADE MANY
7 CONCESSIONS. AND THE SUGGESTION THAT THE STAFF HAS MADE
8 TONIGHT IS ONE THAT, WHEN HE STARTED OUT, HE WAS WILLING
9 FOR A BUFFER, BUT HE HAD HIS GOLF COURSE, ET CETERA, AND
10 EVERYTHING ELSE IN IT.
11 NOW HE'S WILLING TO ACCEPT THE DECISION OF THE
12 FISH AND GAME THAT A 400-YARD BUFFER IS ABSOLUTELY
13 NECESSARY, AND HE'S WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT AND DO AWAY
14 WITH BUILDING ON THAT LAND.
15 YOU ALSO HEARD FROM THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE
16 REALLY CONCERNED, THE GAGNON PEOPLE AND THE OTHER PEOPLE
17 WHOSE PROPERTY SUDDENLY WILL BECOME USELESS IF WE GO
18 FURTHER THAN WHAT WE HAVE AGREED TO DO.
19 I'M SPEAKING NOW AS AN INDIVIDUAL. THERE'S
20 FOUR OTHER PEOPLE HERE WHO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK AND TO
21 MAKE JUDGMENTS, BUT I HAVE NO CHOICE. I THINK I HAVE --
22 IF I HAVEN'T, I WILL NOW. THE PUBLIC HEARING IS CLOSED,
23 AND IT IS NOW OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO EVALUATE ALL THAT'S
24 HAPPENED.
25 BUT I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT WHATEVER DECISION
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EXHIBIT "A"
250
WE MAKE WILL NOT DEFEAT EITHER PROJECT. I BELIEVE THAT
THERE HAS BEEN A WILLINGNESS TO FIND A WAY TO WORK THIS
OUT. WE FEEL THAT WE HAVE GONE A LONG WAYS, THE DEVELOPER
HAS GONE A LONG WAYS. YOU BOTH KNOW THAT WE'VE HAD THE
OTHER DEVELOPER THAT'S INVOLVED IN THIS TRYING TO HELP.
THE FUNDS THAT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED ARE STAGGERING TO ME
THAT -- WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO DO TO TRY TO FIND
A COMPROMISE TO THE SITUATION.
AND NOW --
COUNCILMAN WILSON: MR. MAYOR.
MAYOR SNYDER: -- IT IS MY DUTY TO ASK THE OPINION OF
THE REST OF THE COUNCIL AND THEIR REMARKS.
THANK YOU.
COUNCILMAN WILSON: MR. MAYOR, NOW THAT THE PUBLIC
HEARING IS CLOSED, COULD WE TAKE A FIVE-MINUTE BREAK AND
COME BACK AND WRESTLE WITH THIS PROBLEM?
MAYOR SNYDER: I THINK THAT WE'VE BEEN REQUESTED, AND
WE WILL TAKE A FIVE-MINUTE BREAK.
(RECESS.)
MAYOR SNYDER: WE HAVE CLOSED THE PUBLIC HEARING.
OUR NEXT MOVE WILL BE TO ASK EACH OF THE
COUNCIL IF THEY HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR POSITION THAT THEY
WOULD LIKE TO SUBMIT.
WHO WOULD CARE TO FIRE OFF?
COUNCILMAN CRITES: I GUESS THE FIRST QUESTION THAT I
MINUTES
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251
1 WOULD HAVE WOULD BE -- START WITH DIRECTING A QUESTION TO
2 THE CITY ATTORNEY.
3 WE'VE HEARD A WHOLE VARIETY OF ISSUES ON WHO
4 DID TELL WHO AND WHO DIDN'T TELL WHAT, WHEN, AND SO ON AND
5 SO ON AND SO FORTH, AND WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY THAT
6 PROVIDING FOR BUFFERING SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT BE.
7 FROM YOUR PERCEPTION, WHAT DOES CALIFORNIA
8 STATE LAW TELL US ABOUT THE OBLIGATION FOR MITIGATING
9 PROBLEMS?
10 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: IT'S ON THE APPLICANT. I
11 BELIEVE IT'S ON THE APPLICANT TO DO THAT.
12 COUNCILMAN CRITES: DO YOU BELIEVE IT IS ON THE
13 APPLICANT TO DO THAT, EVEN WHEN THE ISSUES OF ZONING AND
14 SO ON AND SO FORTH, AS THEY ARE ON THIS CASE, HAVE BEEN
15 PRESENTED?
16 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: YES.
17 COUNCILMAN CRITES: OKAY. THANK YOU.
18 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: IN OTHER WORDS, EVEN THOUGH
19 ZONING WAS RESIDENTIAL, IT WAS RESIDENTIAL THERE ALL
20 ALONG. I THINK THAT IT'S STILL THE APPLICANT'S
21 RESPONSIBILITY TO -- UNDER CEQA, TO MITIGATE.
22 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THE SECOND QUESTION WOULD BE TO
23 FINALLY HEAR FROM THE CONSULTING BIOLOGIST. WE'VE HEARD A
24 LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT WHAT THE BIOLOGIST DID AND DIDN'T
25 DO. I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE BIOLOGIST SUMMARIZE WHY,
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EXHIBIT 'A'
252
1 FROM THIS PLETHORA OF OPINIONS, HE CAME UP WITH PARTICULAR
2 BIOLOGICAL RECOMMENDATIONS, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE CHANGE IN
3 THE BUFFER -- IN OTHER WORDS, YOU RECOMMEND THAT IT
4 BECOMES WIDER IN A CERTAIN PART, YOU RECOMMEND CERTAIN
5 THINGS IN TERMS OF CONSTRUCTION ACTIVITIES, YOU RECOMMEND
6 CERTAIN THINGS IN TERMS OF THE DESERT WASH,
7 ET CETERA, ET CETERA. YOUR RATIONALE.
8 MR. BEAUCHAMP: WE HAVE A -- MY NAME IS MITCHELL
9 BEAUCHAMP. I'M THE OWNER OF PACIFIC SOUTHWEST BIOLOGICAL
10 SERVICES, A BIOLOGICAL CONSULTING COMPANY IN SOUTHERN
11 CALIFORNIA.
12 WE, OF COURSE, SENT OUT THE QUESTIONNAIRE AND
13 EVALUATED THE OPINIONS, THE INFORMATION THAT WE HAD AS
14 WELL AS REVIEWED THE LITERATURE, AND CAME UP WITH THE --
15 MR. JIM BAHR AND MR. JOHN HARRIS OF MY FIRM ALSO WERE
16 INVOLVED IN THAT ASSESSMENT AND ANALYSIS OF THE
17 INFORMATION AND OPINIONS. AND WE CAME UP WITH THE OPINION
18 OF ALL THESE WORKERS, AND THAT'S PRESENTED IN THE DOCUMENT
19 IN A VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD FASHION FOR YOUR REVIEW.
20 BUT THE BUFFER ALSO INCLUDES ANOTHER PARAMETER
21 AND NOT JUST THE PROTECTION OF THE -- OF THE BEHAVIORAL
22 ACTIVITY IN THE PEN AREA, BUT ALSO THAT OF THE WASH AREA.
23 AND ONE OF THE CONDITIONS -- IT'S RIGHT AT THE
24 VERY BEGINNING -- IS THAT THIS PROJECT ACQUIRE ALL
25 FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL PERMITS. IT'S CONTINGENT UPON
MINUTES
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EXEIIBIT 'A'
253
1 THAT. WELL, ONE IMPORTANT PERMIT THAT'S GOT TO BE
2 ACQUIRED IS A 404 PERMIT FROM THE U.S. ARMY CORPS OF
3 ENGINEERS AS WELL AS A FISH AND GAME 1603. IN THIS CASE,
4 A SERIES 1603 AGREEMENT FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF FISH
5 AND GAME.
6 NOW, THE FISH AND GAME, WHENEVER THEY COMMENT
7 ON A PROJECT OR THEY ISSUE A PERMIT -- OR AN AGREEMENT,
8 IT'S CALLED AT THE STATE LEVEL -- THEY MAKE IT QUITE CLEAR
9 THAT THEIR ISSUANCE OF THIS AGREEMENT DOES NOT PRECLUDE
10 THEIR COMMENTING ADVERSELY LATER ON ON THE PROJECT. IT'S
11 JUST THEIR SEQUENCE NOW, IS THAT THEY WAIT TILL THE CEQA
12 PROCESSING IS DONE, THIS ACTION BEFORE YOU, BEFORE THEY
13 WILL CONSIDER A STREAMBED ALTERATION AGREEMENT, WHICH IS
14 INVOLVED WITH THIS PROJECT. SO THAT'S THE STATE LEVEL.
15 SO THEIR COMMENT ON BUFFERS, WHATEVER --
16 HOWEVER YOU WANT TO TAKE THAT, IS NOT PREDISPOSING THEM TO
17 ISSUE A 1603 AGREEMENT ON THIS PROJECT. THAT'S AT THE
18 STATE LEVEL.
19 AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, THE 404 SITUATION,
20 THERE'S 40 ACRES OF WASH INVOLVED HERE. AND AS WE HEARD
21 FROM THE APPLICANT, THERE'S GOING TO BE AN IMPACT TO MOST
22 OF IT, AND IT'S GOING TO BE RECONSTRUCTED. BUT
23 NONETHELESS, THERE'S AN IMPACT TO WETLANDS, THE WATERS OF
24 THE UNITED STATES. AND THE ISSUANCE OF THE 404 RELATES TO
25 THE POSSIBLE PRESENCE OF THE DESERT TORTOISE.
NEWTES
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EXHIBIT 'A'
254
1 NOW, OUR FIRM, WE BELIEVE, HAS RESOLVED THAT AS
2 CLOSE AS WE CAN AT THIS TIME, BUT WE HAVE NOT DONE
3 THE HUNDRED PERCENT SURVEY BECAUSE WE -- THAT'S A
4 CONDITION OF APPROVAL. SO THAT WILL BE REQUIRED ALSO FOR
5 A FEDERAL AGREEMENT -- A FEDERAL PERMIT TO ALTER THE
6 WETLANDS. THE WASH, IN OTHER WORDS. IRRESPECTIVE OF ITS
7 BEING ALTERED, THE HEADWATERS MODIFIED, THERE IS STILL
8 SCOURING ACTION. IT STILL IS AN ACTIVE DESERT WASH. SO
9 THESE THINGS GO FORTH.
10 SO THESE ENTERED INTO OUR BUFFER, SETBACK, OPEN
11 SPACE, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT. IT'S A MULTIPLE-
12 FUNCTION NATURAL AREA, AND THAT'S HOW WE CAME UP WITH THAT
13 DESIGN. IT'S A MANY -FACETED ASPECT TO THE OPEN SPACE THAT
14 WE PROPOSED FOR THIS PROJECT TO MITIGATE THE IMPACTS TO
15 THE WASH, LAMBING -- THOSE TWO, PRINCIPALLY.
16 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THE ANALYSIS THAT YOU DID IN
17 TERMS OF NEED FOR A BUFFER DID NOT EXAMINE WHAT SHOULD OR
18 SHOULD NOT HAPPEN IN REGARD TO THE STEWART AND BIEDERMAN
19 PROPERTIES WHICH ARE ON HIGHWAY 74; IS THAT CORRECT?
20 MR. BEAUCHAMP: OH, NO, NO. IT LOOKED AT THE
21 RESOURCES OF THE PROJECT ITSELF, AND THAT DID NOT INCLUDE
22 THOSE PARCELS. IT DID INCLUDE, OF COURSE THE -- IS IT
23 GAGNON?
24 MS. ADAMS: DEL GAGNON.
25 MR. BEAUCHAMP: THE DEL GAGNON PARCEL.
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AUGUST 1, 1991
255
1 BUT IT -- NO, IT DIDN'T INCLUDE ADJACENT AREAS.
2 COUNCILMAN CRITES: YOU'VE HEARD, OBVIOUSLY, THIS
3 EVENING, TESTIMONY FROM A NUMBER OF PEOPLE ABOUT THEIR
4 PLANS FOR, IN ESSENCE, GOING THROUGH THE WASH, OBVIOUSLY,
5 TAKING PLANTS OUT, STORING THEM AND DOING, PROBABLY, GOLF
6 HOLES AND FAIRWAY HOMES AND THEN PLACING BACK IN PLANTS,
7 AND THE END RESULT OF THAT BEING TO IMPROVE DESERT
8 WILDLIFE HABITAT, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.
9 YOUR RECOMMENDATION INITIALLY IN THE E.I.R. IS
10 THAT THAT'S NOT, FROM YOUR PERCEPTION, THE BEST APPROACH.
11 AFTER HEARING THAT TESTIMONY THIS EVENING, WHAT IS YOUR
12 PERCEPTION?
13 MR. BEAUCHAMP: IF IT WERE JUST A WASH SITUATION,
14 THERE ARE SOME OPTIONS, I BELIEVE, THAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE
15 IN TERMS OF REVEGETATION OR HABITAT RESTORATION OR
16 ENHANCEMENT, AS DR. CAROTHERS MENTIONED.
17 OUR FIRM IS A BIOLOGICAL CONSULTING FIRM, BUT
18 WE ALSO HAVE A LANDSCAPE CONTRACTOR'S LICENSE, AND WE
19 ROUTINELY RESTORE WETLAND HABITATS. WE PUT IN COTE DE
20 CAZA WETLANDS AND COASTAL SALT MARSH HABITAT AND JUST ALL
21 KINDS OF THINGS ALONG THAT NATURE. UPLAND HABITATS, TOO.
22 AND IF THAT WERE THE CASE, THOSE -- THOSE
23 ARGUMENTS WOULD BE EXTREMELY COGENT. BUT IN LIGHT OF THE
24 OTHER REQUIREMENTS THAT WE PERCEIVE FROM THE LITERATURE
25 AND FROM THE DISCUSSION WITH OTHER -- WITH EXPERTS, THAT
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT •A'
256
1 IT -- THAT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO DO THESE THINGS AND
2 STILL HAVE THIS BUFFER FUNCTION FOR ALL THE MULTIPLICITY
3 OF THINGS WE HAD CONSIDERED.
4 I THINK IT'S NICE THAT THEY'RE USING NATIVE
5 VEGETATION. I THINK GETTING SOME OF PHREATIC THINGS TO BE
6 BOXED UP, THE -- THE MESQUITES AND SO FORTH, THEY'RE VERY
7 DEEPLY ROOTED. IT'S A VERY CHALLENGING THING. AND IF
8 IT'S BEEN DONE, WHY, THAT'S THE EMPERICAL EVIDENCE THAT IT
9 WORKS.
10 AND IT DOES WORK FOR OAK TREES, IT DOES WORK
11 FOR LARGE CHAPARRAL SPECIES, AND IT DOES WORK FOR SOME
12 DESERT PLANTS. AND IT'S VERY ADMIRABLE. YOU CAN ENHANCE
13 THE DIVERSITY OF THE WASHES.
14 BUT ONE THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT A DESERT WASH
15 IS A DYNAMIC HYDROLOGICAL SYSTEM. AND ALTHOUGH THIS WASH
16 HAS HAD ITS WATERSHED EXTENT REDUCED FOR FLOOD CONTROL
17 PURPOSES, IT, NONETHELESS, FLOWS DURING A MAJOR STORM
18 EVENT, AND IT'S THIS FLOWING AND SCOURING ACTION THAT
19 KEEPS AN AGE CLASS DISTRIBUTION GOING OF DESERT SMOKE
20 TREES.
21 WHEN DO WE SEE A LOT OF SMOKE TREES COMING UP?
22 WE SEE THEM AFTER THESE CATASTROPHIC CHUBASCOS THAT WE
23 JUST HAD THE OTHER DAY. AND WE HAVE TO HAVE THAT TO HAVE
24 THE WASH FUNCTIONAL; OTHERWISE, IT'S A SENESCENT PIECE OF
25 LANDSCAPING. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A BIOLOGICAL FUNCTION.
MS
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EXFIIBIT 'A'
257
1 COUNCILMAN CRITES: TO THE DIRECTOR OF COMMUNITY
2 DEVELOPMENT. IF WE, AS A GROUP, HAVE CONCERNS ON SOME OF
3 THE PLACEMENT OF PROPOSED HILLSIDE LOTS -- I LOOK AT AN
4 EXAMPLE AS HILLSIDE LOT NO. 300, 299, 181 THROUGH 184,
5 ET CETERA, ET CETERA -- WHAT, FROM YOUR PERCEPTION, WOULD
6 BE THE PROPER THING FOR US TO DO?
7 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: I BELIEVE THAT -- I DON'T
8 BELIEVE. I KNOW WHAT MY RECOMMENDATION IS: THAT WE
9 SPECIFICALLY DESIGNATE THOSE LOTS, IF YOU CHOOSE TO
10 APPROVE THE MAP, TO HAVE A CONDITION OF APPROVAL ON THE
11 TENTATIVE MAP THAT THOSE LOTS WILL BE REVIEWED
12 SPECIFICALLY FOR WHATEVER ITEMS THE COUNCIL MAY WISH AND
13 APPROVED OR MODIFIED AS THE COUNCIL MAY WISH PRIOR TO THE
14 APPROVAL OF THE FINAL MAP.
15 COUNCILMAN CRITES: TWO LAST QUICK QUESTIONS TO THE
16 CITY ATTORNEY.
17 YOU'VE HEARD PROPOSED BY OUR E.I.R. CONSULTANT
18 THAT THE BUFFER BE A BUFFER THAT REMAIN FOR THREE YEARS
19 AND THAT IF THE INSTITUTE OR SOME PUBLIC AGENCY HAS NOT
20 PURCHASED THE DEL GAGNON PIECE OF LAND WITHIN THOSE THREE
21 YEARS THAT NOT ONLY DOES THAT PIECE OF THE BUFFER
22 DISAPPEAR, BUT THE ENTIRETY OF THE PIECE OF THE BUFFER
23 DISAPPEARS.
24 ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH A PROCESS OF
25 POTENTIALLY MITIGATING AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT
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EXHIBIT 'A'
258
1 DISAPPEARING BECAUSE, BY CHOICE OR LACK OF RESOURCES, A
2 CERTAIN PIECE OF PROPERTY IS NOT PURCHASED BY A THIRD,
3 FOURTH, OR FIFTH PARTY?
4 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: NO.
5 COUNCILMAN CRITES: OKAY. AND LAST, WHATEVER WE DO,
6 FROM A POINT OF VIEW FROM THE LAW, WOULD WE BE IN A
7 STRONGER POSITION IN TERMS OF ULTIMATELY HAVING WHATEVER
8 CONDITIONS ARE IMPOSED UPON THIS PROJECT PLACED IN THE
9 FORM OF A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT? WOULD A DEVELOPMENT
10 AGREEMENT MAKE THE LIKELIHOOD OF THOSE CONDITIONS BEING
11 CARRIED OUT IN TOTAL A MORE PROBABLE EVENT?
12 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: YES.
13 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THANK YOU.
14 MAYOR SNYDER: JEAN.
15 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: I GUESS MY CONCERNS ARE THE
16 SAME AS BUFORD'S ON THE LOTS, DOING SOMETHING WITH THE
17 LOTS UP ON THE HILLSIDE TO SEE THAT WE HAVE SOME CONTROL
18 ON WHAT'S UP THERE, SINCE I DON'T THINK STAFF CHOSE TO
19 DISCOURAGE THE BUILDING IN THE HILLSIDE.
20 YET -- BUT I AM ALSO CONCERNED ABOUT THE
21 TRAFFIC, IN CHANGING THE ENTRANCE TO THE OPPOSITE OF
22 INDIAN SPRINGS. I'VE GONE THROUGH ALL THE TRAFFIC REPORT,
23 AND I SEE NO MENTION WHATSOEVER OF ANY TRAFFIC COMING OUT
24 OF INDIAN SPRINGS. IT'S ALL SILVER SPUR, THE ENTRANCE WAS
25 AT SILVER SPUR. AND ALL THE STREET LOCATIONS, ALL THE
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT 'A'
259
6 1 TIMINGS, ALL THE TRAFFIC AND CHECKS THEY TOOK NEVER
2 MENTIONED INDIAN SPRINGS NOR WHAT THEY PLAN TO DO AT THE
3 ENTRANCE TO INDIAN SPRINGS.
4 DOES STAFF KNOW?
5 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: THERE'S TRAFFIC --
6 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: THERE'S STREETS ALL ALONG 74,
7 BUT YOU DON'T SEE ANY MARK GOING INTO INDIAN SPRINGS ON
8 THE WHOLE SCHMEAR.
9 MS. ADAMS: THERE IS A MARK ON EXHIBIT 23 -- THAT
10 WOULD BE AFTER PAGE 154 OF THE E.I.R. -- THAT SHOWS A --
11 THAT SHOWS THE INDIAN SPRINGS ACCESS. PURSUANT TO A
12 CALTRANS REQUEST AND IN COORDINATION WITH CALTRANS, THAT
13 ACCESS WAS MOVED TO SILVER SPUR AT THE REQUEST OF
14 CALTRANS.
15 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: IT WAS MOVED TO SILVER SPUR OR
16 FROM --
17 MS. ADAMS: TO SILVER SPUR.
18 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: I THOUGHT YOU SAID HE WAS GOING
19 TO PUT IT AT INDIAN SPRINGS.
20 HE'S SHAKING HIS HEAD YES.
21 MS. ADAMS: YEAH. I'M SORRY. I HAVE IT BACKWARDS.
22 SO IT'S CLOSE TO INDIAN SPRINGS. YEAH. IT
23 GOES TO INDIAN SPRINGS.
24 AND THAT WAS AT THE REQUEST OF CALTRANS TO
25 COORDINATE THE ACCESS AND THE TRAFFIC ALONG THERE.
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EXHIBIT 'A'
260
1 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: RIGHT. BUT I SEE NO MITIGATION
2 MEASURES OF PUTTING AN ENTRANCE OPPOSITE ONE THAT COMES
3 OUT, SUCH AS SILVER SPUR, WHERE THEY'VE TAKEN SILVER SPUR
4 INTO CONSIDERATION. IN ALL THIS TRAFFIC COUNT, THEY HAVE
5 NOT TAKEN ANYTHING OUT OF INDIAN SPRINGS OR HOW THOSE
6 PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET OUT, AND HOW YOU'RE GOING TO WAIT
7 THERE FOREVER TO GET OUT WHILE THEY'VE GOT THE ENTRANCE TO
8 THE OTHER ONE.
9 MS. ADAMS: I BELIEVE -- LET ME CHECK. I BELIEVE
10 THERE IS A MITIGATION MEASURE IN HERE. IT'S A STOP SIGN.
11 SO IT WOULD BE A --
12 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: THERE'S ALREADY A STOP SIGN.
13 WE HAVE ONE THERE, GOING OUT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IF THE
14 CARS ARE GOING INTO THE OTHER ONE, THAT WE'RE GOING TO
15 WAIT WHILE ALL THAT TRAFFIC GOES IN THERE TO GET OUT. AND
16 YOU'VE GOT THE TRAFFIC COMING DOWNHILL AT THE SAME TIME.
17 MS. ADAMS: THE -- IN THE TRAFFIC ENGINEER'S OPINION
18 IN THIS PROJECT THAT DID THE ANALYSIS, THE STOP SIGN WAS
19 ADEQUATE TRAFFIC CONTROL AT THAT INTERSECTION.
20 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: BUT IT DOESN'T STATE THAT IN
21 THERE ANYPLACE, BECAUSE I READ THIS VERY THOROUGHLY, AND I
22 SEE ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION IN HERE OF INDIAN SPRINGS.
23 MS. ADAMS: WE CAN ADD A DISCUSSION, IF YOU --
24 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: WELL, WHAT KIND OF A STOP ARE
25 YOU TALKING ABOUT? BECAUSE THERE'S A STOP NOW, COMING OUT
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EXHIBIT "A"
261
1 OF INDIAN SPRINGS, ONTO 74. ARE YOU GOING TO PUT A
2 FOUR-WAY STOP THERE?
3 MS. ADAMS: NO. WELL, CALTRANS WOULD CONTROL THE
4 TYPE OF TRAFFIC CONTROL THAT WAS ON 74 PARTICULARLY. BUT
5 THERE WOULD BE A STOP AT THE PROJECT ENTRANCE FOR STOPPING
6 TRAFFIC FROM THE PROJECT.
7 SO, IN OTHER WORDS, IT WOULD BE JUST LIKE ON
8 THE OTHER SIDE OF INDIAN SPRINGS. THERE WOULD BE STOPS SO
9 THE TRAFFIC -- CALTRANS CONTROLS WHAT HIGHWAY 74 HAS IN
10 THE WAY OF TRAFFIC CONTROL.
11 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: WELL, THERE'S NOTHING IN HERE
12 THAT RELATES TO ANY OF THAT OR IN ANY OF THE TRAFFIC COUNT
13 OR IN ANY OF THE REST OF THEM. AND ALL THE INTERSECTION
14 MOVEMENTS AND EVERYTHING THAT THEY'VE DONE HAS NO ACCOUNT
15 OF THAT TRAFFIC COMING OUT OF THERE, THE TRAFFIC COMING
16 OUT OF THE OTHER PROJECTS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STREET.
17 THERE'S NONE FROM SOMERSET, THERE'S NONE FROM
18 MOUNTAINBACK. THERE'S A LOT OF TRAFFIC THAT COMES OUT OF
19 BOTH SIDES OF THAT HIGHWAY, AND EVERYTHING YOU'VE GOT IN
20 THERE ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STREET.
21 COUNCILMAN CRITES: MR. MAYOR, MAY I FOLLOW THAT UP
22 WITH A QUICK QUESTION, SIR?
23 AND THAT IS: WAS THOUGHT GIVEN TO WORKING WITH
24 WESTINGHOUSE TO PUT THE ENTRANCE DIRECTLY OPPOSITE
25 CAHUILLA WAY, WHICH IS THE MOST LIKELY PLACE FOR A
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT 'A'
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1 SIGNALIZED INTERSECTION, ANYHOW, SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE,
2 TWO YEARS FROM NOW, SOMEONE SAYING WE NEED A SIGNAL
3 150 YARDS DOWN THE STREET FROM WHERE WE VERY LOGICALLY
4 PROBABLY WILL HAVE A SIGNAL, AND THAT'S AT CAHUILLA WAY
5 AND HIGHWAY 74.
6 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: YES. AT THE TIME
7 WESTINGHOUSE SUBMITTED APPLICATION FOR THEIR SUN CREEK
8 PROJECT. AND AT THAT TIME CALTRANS WAS RECOMMENDING A
9 JOINT DRIVEWAY FOR BOTH SUN CREEK AND ALTA MIRA TO SHARE.
10 AND, BASICALLY, STAFF LOOKED AT THIS
11 OPPORTUNITY AND REALIZED THIS WOULD BE, PROBABLY, THE ONLY
12 COUNTRY CLUB THAT REALLY DOESN'T HAVE A MAIN ACCESS TO A
13 MAIN HIGHWAY. THAT WOULD CREATE A SITUATION WHERE THEY
14 WOULD BE ENTERING THE PROJECT FROM MORE OF A BACK ALLEY
15 TYPE OF SITUATION. AND STAFF DID NOT LOOK FAVORABLY ON
16 THAT TYPE OF AN ACCESS ARRANGESMENT.
17 AND CALTRANS LOOKED AT THE SITUATION FURTHER,
18 AND THE NEW ENTRANCE OPPOSITE INDIAN SPRINGS WAY IS WHAT
19 CALTRANS IS NOW LOOKING AT FOR ACCESS TO THE PROJECT.
20 JUST FOR THE RECORD, THE SUN CREEK PROJECT
21 PROPOSED BY WESTINGHOUSE IS NOW WITHDRAWN, SO WE WILL NOT
22 BE ABLE TO -- THE ENTIRE CAHUILLA WAY INTERSECTION ACROSS
23 HIGHWAY 74 IS ON WESTINGHOUSE'S PROPERTY, AND IT'S NOT --
24 NO PORTION OF IT WOULD LINE UP WITH ALTA MIRA.
25 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: THERE REALLY ISN'T VERY MUCH
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EXHIBIT 'A'
263
1 DISTANCE BETWEEN THAT CAHUILLA AND THE ENTRANCE THERE.
2 IT'S REALLY MINUTE.
3 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: THE CURRENT ENTRANCE IS
4 OPPOSITE INDIAN SPRINGS WAY, WHICH IS QUITE --
5 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: I DON'T MEAN THAT ONE. I MEAN
6 SILVER SPUR AND CAHUILLA WAY. IF THE ENTRANCE IS AT
7 SILVER SPUR, IT'S JUST MINUTE, ON THE OTHER ROAD THERE,
8 THE DISTANCE BETWEEN.
9 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: THAT'S WHERE -- CALTRANS
10 ORIGINALLY APPROVED LOCATING THE ACCESS TO THE PROJECT
11 OPPOSITE SILVER SPUR MOBILE HOME PARK. LATER, THEY HAD
12 THOUGHTS OF HAVING THAT COMBINED ACCESS WITH WESTINGHOUSE.
13 AND NOW, LATER, THEY'RE LOOKING AT -- THE LAST
14 COMMUNICATIONS WITH CALTRANS IS AT THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE
15 ENTRANCE TO THE PROJECT OPPOSITE INDIAN SPRINGS WAY.
16 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: WELL, IT DOESN'T APPEAR TO ME
17 THAT A STOP SIGN ON THE OTHER SIDE IS GOING TO SOLVE THE
18 TRAFFIC PROBLEM COMING OUT OF THERE AND COMING DOWN THE
19 HILL.
20 AND I DON'T SEE WHY, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY'RE
21 DOING ALL THE TRAFFIC STUDY THAT'S IN HERE, THERE'S NO
22 MENTION AT ALL OF THE TRAFFIC COMING OUT OF THE PROJECTS
23 ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STREET. THEY HAVE GRAPEVINE,
24 HAYSTACK, MESA VIEW, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE THE THREE MAJOR
25 PROJECTS ON THE OTHER SIDE THERE.
MS
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EXHIBIT 'A'
264
1 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: I BELIEVE WHAT SOME OF THE
2 FINDINGS OF THE TRAFFIC STUDY WILL DISCOVER IS THAT
3 THERE'S A LOT MORE INTERSECTIONS FARTHER DOWN HIGHWAY 74
4 THAT WANT SIGNALS RIGHT NOW THAN -- THAN THIS PROJECT
5 WOULD GENERATE, SUCH AS THE INTERSECTION OF HAYSTACK AND
6 HIGHWAY 74. THERE'S MORE TRAFFIC COMING OUT OF THAT
7 INTERSECTION RIGHT NOW THAN WOULD BE COMING OUT OF THIS
8 PROJECT.
9 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: WELL, I AM CONCERNED ABOUT
10 THAT.
11 MS. ADAMS: MAY I -- MAY I ADD SOMETHING?
12 ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED DURING THIS
13 E.I.R. IS THAT WHEN THE TRAFFIC STUDY WAS COMPLETED, BUT
14 BEFORE THE DRAFT E.I.R. PUBLICATION, IT WAS INDICATED TO
15 THE CITY BY CALTRANS THAT THEY WERE DESIROUS OF CHANGING
16 THE LOCATION OF THE ACCESS.
17 THE -- I'M TOLD THAT THE TRAFFIC ENGINEER THEN
18 CONSULTED WITH THE CITY TO DETERMINE WHAT ADJUSTMENTS
19 WOULD NEED TO BE MADE IN THE TRAFFIC STUDY, AND THE
20 TRAFFIC ENGINEER INDICATED THAT THE VOLUMES EXITING
21 SILVER -- EXCUSE ME -- INDIAN SPRINGS WOULD BE COMPARABLE
22 TO THOSE EXITING SILVER SPUR, AS SHOWN ON EXHIBIT 27.
23 AND, THEREFORE, ACCORDING TO THE JUDGMENT AT
24 THAT TIME, SINCE THE VOLUMES WERE COMPARABLE, IN THIS CASE
25 ABOUT 1400 A DAY COMING OUT OF INDIAN SPRINGS, WHICH IS --
265
1 SILVER SPUR IS 1400 A DAY, AS SHOWN IN THE EXHIBIT 27 OF
2 THE E.I.R. -- THAT THE EFFECTS WOULD BE COMPARABLE.
3 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: WELL, I'M STILL VERY MUCH
4 CONCERNED ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SEEM, TO ME, TO
5 ADDRESS THE WHOLE PROBLEM WHEN THEY'RE JUST PUTTING A STOP
6 SIGN ON THE OTHER SIDE.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: YEAH.
8 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: WELL, I ASSUME WE'RE GOING TO
9 TALK ABOUT ALL OF THE OTHER PARTS OF THE PROJECT THAT
10 WE'RE CONCERNED, SINCE THE ONE OF BUFFERS, THE LAST ONE
11 WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT, I SUPPOSE.
12 AND I'M WONDERING ABOUT THE GRADE SEPARATIONS
13 WITH THE SUMMIT. AND I THINK ABOUT ALL THE TROUBLE WE'VE
14 HAD WITH GRADE SEPARATIONS BETWEEN PROJECTS AND OUR
15 ASSURANCE THAT THOSE ARE GOING TO BE COMPATIBLE WITH
16 EXISTING DEVELOPMENT.
17 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: THAT WAS ONE OF THE MAIN
18 ISSUES WE LOOKED AT INITIALLY ON THE PROJECT. THE FIRST
19 E.I.R. LOOKED IN DEPTH AT AESTHETICS, AND THAT WAS
20 GENERATED BY THE CONCERNS OF THE RESIDENTS OF THE SUMMIT.
21 AND STAFF HAD IMPOSED A CONDITION OF APPROVAL
22 ON THAT PROJECT SO THAT THE GRADES WOULD MORE OR LESS LINE
23 UP WITH EACH OTHER ON THE -- WE USED TO CALL IT THE HOLY
24 WALL THAT SURROUNDED THE SUMMIT AREA WITH THE HOLES IN IT.
25 BUT WE WERE CONCERNED THAT THE GRADES WOULD MATCH UP.
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEP' CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
266
1 AND THERE IS A CONDITION OF APPROVAL THAT I
2 BELIEVE THE SURROUNDING HOMEOWNERS OF THE SUMMIT ARE HAPPY
3 WITH NOW THAT HOLDS DOWN THOSE GRADES ADJACENT TO THE
4 RESIDENCES OF THE SUMMIT.
5 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: WE DID THAT ONCE BEFORE ON THE
6 PROJECT ALONG -- JUST TO THE EAST SIDE OF THE PALM VALLEY
7 WASH, AND THE DEVELOPER THEN WAS ALLOWED TO PUT THE ROAD
8 IN. AND THE ROAD WAS AT AN ELEVATION THAT CAUSED A
9 PROBLEM, AND WE WOUND UP WITH IT, ANYWAY.
10 AND SO I GUESS WHAT I WANT TO MAKE SURE STAFF
11 DOES IS THAT WHEN THEY APPROVE THE GRADING PLAN, THAT THE
12 ROADS IN -- ADJACENT TO THE NORTH SIDE ARE AT A LEVEL
13 WHERE, WHEN THEY -- WHEN THEY PUT THE LOTS IN THAT WE
14 WON'T BE FACED WITH THE PROBLEM OF SOMEBODY BEING UPSET
15 BECAUSE THEY DON'T -- THEY WANT THE WATER TO DRAIN TOWARDS
16 THE ROAD, AND TO DO THAT, THEY'RE TEN FEET HIGH, LOOKING
17 INTO THE NEXT PIECE OF PROPERTY.
18 SO IN THE PAST, IT SEEMS LIKE WE'VE NEVER
19 SUCCEEDED, EVEN THOUGH WE HAD THESE SAME STIPULATIONS
20 ABOUT APPROVING EACH LOT, AND WE WIND UP WITH A
21 NEGOTIATION.
22 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: I BELIEVE YOU'RE REFERRING TO
23 THE VISTA PASEO PROJECT. AND THAT'S THE TYPE OF SITUATION
24 WHERE YOU HAD BACKYARDS BACKING UP TO OTHER BACKYARDS, AND
25 SO THE WHOLE LOT WOULD HAVE TO DRAIN TOWARDS THE STREET.
1
8
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ADJOURNED PALM DES! CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
267
1 BUT IN THIS SITUATION, PREDOMINANTLY, WE HAVE A STREET
2 BACKING UP TO THE RESIDENCES OF THE SUMMIT.
3 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: SO THERE'S NO LOTS BACKING UP
4 ANYWHERE?
5 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: NO. THERE IS A -- A ROW OF
6 LOTS, 368 THROUGH 371, AND THOSE WILL BE LOOKED AT IN
7 FURTHER DETAIL LATER ON FOR COMPLIANCE, ALSO, THROUGH THE
8 FINAL GRADING PLAN CHECK. BUT THE MAJORITY OF THE LOTS
9 SURROUNDING THE SUMMIT, THERE'S A STREET BETWEEN THE
10 HOUSES AND THE LOTS OF THE SUMMIT.
11 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: ANOTHER CONCERN IS HAVING
12 SOMETHING THAT LOOKS RIGHT FROM HIGHWAY 74. AND I
13 REMEMBER AT THE MARRIOTT, WE WERE GOING TO HAVE OPENINGS
14 SO THAT WE WOULDN'T JUST SEE A STRAIGHT, BARE WALL, AND WE
15 WOUND UP WITH STRAIGHT, BARE WALLS, ANYWAY.
16 AND WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO TO ASSURE OURSEL:'ES
17 THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE OPENINGS IN THE WALL SO THAT WNE`1
18 YOU DRIVE BY THERE, YOU'RE NOT JUST LOOKING AT A WALL ALL
19 THE WAY DOWN, AND YOU COULD SEE THROUGH AND SEE SOME 0l
20 THE FAIRWAYS, ET CETERA?
21 ASSISTANT PLANNER JOY: THE PLAN PROPOSES A 40-F00T
22 WALL SETBACK FROM THE CURB FACE FOR THIS PROJECT.
WMICN :5
TO BEGIN WITH.
AND �[ MAYt ••
23 QUITE A BIT OF LANDSCAPING, WNt7I
24 WE HAVE NOT HAD FINAL WALL PLANS SUBMITTED YISO BUT TOUKT$
25 WALL PLANS ARE SUBMITTED, WE CAN TAKE THAT
NUNUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEP` CITY COUNCIL MF.E ING
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EXHIBIT 'A•
268
1 THAT WE WOULD LIKE OPENINGS IN THE WALL TO PROVIDE VIEW
2 SIGHTS INTO THE PROJECT.
3 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: I ALSO SHARE THE CONCERN ABOUT
4 THE LOTS ON THE HILLSIDE, THAT WE HAVE SOME KIND OF A -- I
5 DON'T HAVE ANY PARTICULAR LOTS PICKED OUT. I DON'T KNOW
6 IF COUNCILMAN CRITES DOES OR NOT. BUT THAT WE ASSURE
7 OURSELVES THAT THOSE ARE DONE IN A WAY THAT -- THAT WE
8 PERCEIVE PROTECTION OF THE HILLSIDE.
9 AND THEN WE HAVE THAT PROBLEM OF PARKING. AND
10 I SEE WE'VE TALKED ABOUT PROVIDING PARKING AND -- FOR THE
11 EMPLOYEES AND ALSO FOR RIDE SHARING, ALTHOUGH WE HAVE TO
12 PROTECT OURSELF FROM THE PROBLEM WE'RE HAVING ON PORTOLA
13 RIGHT NOW, WITH CARS PARKING ON PORTOLA FOR THE VINTAGE.
14 AND WHY THEY'RE THERE, I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY'RE THERE, BUT
15 WHATEVER CAUSES THEM TO BE THERE, WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING
16 ON THIS PROJECT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM
17 WITH EMPLOYEES OR WHATEVER THAT IS THAT ARE PARKING ON THE
18 STREET.
19 MAYOR SNYDER: ROY.
20 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I JUST WANT TO ECHO WHAT'S BEEN
21 SAID BY THE OTHERS ON THE HILLSIDE LOTS. I WOULD LIKE TO
22 SEE, WHATEVER WE DO, SOME KIND OF A CONDITIONING THAT WE
23 HAVE A FINAL REVIEW AND INVOLVEMENT IN THE SITING OF
24 HILLSIDE LOTS, THOSE 59 OR 57, WHATEVER IT IS, AND THAT
25 WE -- PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT MAY BE NEAR ANY RIDGES.
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DES 'T CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
269
9 1 MY MAJOR CONCERN, AND I'M STILL -- I GUESS MY
2 QUESTION -- I'D LIKE TO DIRECT A QUESTION TO THE PACIFIC
3 SOUTHWEST BIOLOGICAL SERVICES.
4 MY CONCERN IS WITH THE RECOMMENDED BUFFER OF
5 THE 400 YARDS. THE FIRST LETTER OF THE DEPARTMENT OF FISH
6 AND GAME SAID 400 TO 600 YARDS, AND THEN THE SECOND LETTER
7 SAYS 400 YARDS MINIMUM. AND I UNDERSTAND FROM YOUR
8 COMMENTS EARLIER THAT YOUR RECOMMENDED BUFFER OF 600 TO
9 1125 YARDS WAS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE WASH AS WELL AS
10 THE BIGHORN SHEEP.
11 I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, IF WE -- AND IF
12 I UNDERSTOOD YOU, YOU WERE SAYING THAT THOSE CONCERNS
13 ABOUT THE WASH STILL WILL BE ADDRESSED AT THE STATE LEVEL
14 WHEN THE DEVELOPER GOES TO THEM FOR THE PERMITTING FOR THE
15 WATERSHED AREA. IS THAT CORRECT?
16 MR. BEAUCHAMP: YES. WE BELIEVE THAT THE -- NOT JUST
17 THE STATE, BUT ALSO THE FEDERAL LEVEL, ON DESIGNING THE
18 PROJECT TO INCLUDE THOSE AREAS, WOULD PRECLUDE ANY
19 DIFFICULTIES PERMITTING THESE -- YOU KNOW, YOU WOULDN'T
20 HAVE TO FILL THE CHANNEL BECAUSE IT WOULDN'T BE DESIGNED
21 IN THE PROJECT FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD.
22 WE ROUTINELY DO THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT PROJECTS
23 JUST TO SEE WHAT DESIGNS WILL FACILITATE THE DEVELOPMENT
24 AND MINIMIZE IMPACTS AS MOST PRACTICAL. AND THAT'S WHY WE
25 PUT THAT INTO THE BUFFER.
MENU 1CJ
ADJOURNED PALM DESERT CITY COUNCIL, MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
270
1 COUNCILMAN WILSON: SO THE BUFFER --
2 MR. BEAUCHAMP: IT IS A VERY COMPLEX THING.
3 COUNCILMAN WILSON: OKAY. TAKING THAT OUT, THAT
4 ELEMENT OF -- THE WASH ELEMENT OUT AND ADDRESSING THE
5 CONCERN THAT WE'VE HEARD EXPRESSED HERE TONIGHT FOR THE
6 BIGHORN SHEEP SO THAT WE DO NOT DO ANYTHING THAT IS
7 DETRIMENTAL TO THE LAMBING PROCESS AND THE OPERATION OF
8 THE INSTITUTE, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE DEPARTMENT OF
9 FISH AND GAME'S RECOMMENDATION OF A MINIMUM OF 400 YARDS
10 UNDISTURBED FROM THE LAMBING PENS?
11 MR. BEAUCHAMP: WELL, I STILL STAND BY OUR ASSESSMENT
12 OF THE OPINION OF VARIOUS WORKERS OF 600 TO 1125. AND THE
13 OPINION OF FISH AND GAME IS THEIR OPINION. I'M NOT ABOUT
14 TO SECOND-GUESS THEM.
15 COUNCILMAN WILSON: NEXT QUESTION GOES TO, I GUESS,
16 THE CITY ATTORNEY OR THE PLANNING DIRECTOR OR BOTH.
17 I BELIEVE WHAT IS FAIR IS FAIR AND THAT,
18 INDEED, IF WE DO PROVIDE A BUFFER THAT WE SHOULD AT LEAST,
19 SOMEHOW, GET A MECHANISM INTO PLACE THAT WILL REQUIRE THE
20 BIGHORN INSTITUTE TO DO A FOCUSED ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT
21 REPORT BEFORE THEY DO ANY DEVELOPMENT OF THEIR OWN ON
22 THEIR SITE SO THAT THEY WILL ADDRESS THE BUFFER ISSUE.
23 SPECIFICALLY, TO MAKE SURE THAT WHAT THEY BUILD IS
24 COMPATIBLE WITH WHAT WE HAVE FOUND, IN OUR WISDOM,
25 WHATEVER IT IS, IS A REASONABLE BUFFER.
9
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ADJOURNED PALM DESE CITY COUNCIL MEETING
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EXHIBIT "A"
* * *
AUGUST 1, 1991
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271
1 AND HOW DO YOU CONDITION SOMEONE ELSE WHEN
2 WE'RE DEALING WITH A DIFFERENT PROJECT? CAN THAT BE DONE
3 THROUGH A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT WITH A SIGNED AGREE --
4 SUBAGREEMENT WITH THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE, OR HOW DO WE GO
5 ABOUT THAT?
6 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: MR. MAYOR, MEMBERS OF THE
7 COUNCIL, AND THE CITY ATTORNEY CAN CORRECT ME IF I'M
8 WRONG.
9 THERE IS VIRTUALLY NO WAY WE CAN REQUIRE EITHER
10 PARTY TO IMPOSE THAT -- TO DO THAT. I THINK THAT AN
11 INSTRUCTION TO STAFF TO INFORM THE COUNTY, WHICH IS THE
12 LEAD AGENCY, WIPR THOSE PARTICULAR PROCESSES OF THE
13 STAFF -- OF THE CITY'S CONCERN AND THAT THE -- A BUFFER BE
14 PROVIDED.
15 AND IF CERTAIN LITIGATION THAT IS NOW GOING ON
16 REQUIRES NEW HEARINGS ON THOSE APPLICATIONS, STAFF WILL
17 THEN PRESENT THAT POSITION AT THE PUBLIC HEARING, SHOULD
18 THAT OCCUR. AND I THINK THAT'S ABOUT ALL THAT WE CAN DO
19 IN THAT REGARD.
20 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: THAT'S RIGHT. THEY'RE IN
21 THE COUNTY, YOU SEE. AND WE CAN, OF COURSE, SUGGEST TO
22 THE COUNTY AND TELL THEM WHAT WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT AND
23 ASK FOR WHAT WE WANT.
24 THERE'S ALREADY A LAWSUIT PENDING TO HAVE DONE
25 WHAT IT IS THAT YOU WANT. I SUPPOSE WE COULD GET INVOLVED
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DFSF CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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1
EXHIBIT 'A'
272
9 1 IN THAT. I'M NOT SURE I RECOMMEND THAT, BUT THOSE ARE THE
2 ONLY TWO THINGS I CAN THINK OF THAT WE COULD DO TO MAKE
3 THAT HAPPEN.
4 WE COULD GO, OF COURSE, TO THE INSTITUTE ITSELF
5 AND REQUEST THAT THEY CONSIDER OUR CONCERNS DIRECTLY AND
6 SEE IF THEY WOULD LISTEN TO US. THOSE ARE THE ONLY THREE
7 WAYS I CAN THINK OF TO GO.
8 DO YOU DISAGREE?
9 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: NO.
10 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: THAT'S IT.
11 COUNCILMAN WILSON: THANK YOU.
12 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: I GUESS I WANT TO GO BACK TO
13 THE TRAFFIC ON 74 AND ASK MR. FOLKERS WHAT -- YOU KNOW,
14 WHAT WAS DONE. I SAW NOTHING FROM CALTRANS TO JUSTIFY
15 CHANGING THAT OPENING AND MOVING IT DOWN. AND -- BUT THEY
16 SAID THAT YOU RECOMMENDED THAT IT WAS ALL RIGHT TO MOVE IT
17 DOWN.
18 CITY ENGINEER FOLKERS: WELL, CALTRANS -- WHEN THE
19 BIGHORN PROJECT OF WESTINGHOUSE WAS UNDERWAY, THERE WAS
20 SOME RECOMMENDATIONS AS FAR AS WHERE THE MAJOR ENTRANCES
21 SHOULD BE. CALTRANS MADE A DECISION AT THAT POINT IN
22 TIME. THEN, AS THEY BEGAN TO DO THE ANALYSIS FOR THIS
23 PROJECT, THEY MADE SOME CHANGES.
24 SO AS A RESULT, THERE WAS A SHIFT OF WHERE THE
25 MAJOR ENTRANCES WOULD BE, AND THIS WAS INDICATED -- AT ONE
0
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEP CTTY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
273
10 1 POINT IN TIME WE WERE TRYING TO HAVE THE TWO PROJECTS ON
2 THE EAST SIDE COME OFF OF THE STREET THAT'S OPPOSITE
3 CAHUILLA WAY. THAT FELL APART.
4 SO, AS A RESULT, SINCE CALTRANS HAS THE
5 AUTHORITY ON HIGHWAY 74, IT WAS FINALLY DETERMINED THAT,
6 BASED ON THEIR TRAFFIC STUDIES, THEIR ANALYSIS OF ALL THE
7 TRAFFIC INFORMATION, THAT THEY WOULD GO FOR ENTRANCES AT
8 CERTAIN STRATEGIC POINTS. AND THAT'S WHAT'S SHOWN IN THE
9 PLAN.
10 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: IS THERE GOING TO BE A HOLDING
11 LANE FOR THEM TO GET INTO THAT? BECAUSE IF THEY -- IF I'M
12 PAYING $1 MILLION FOR A HOME IN THERE AND YOU WAIT AS LONG
13 AS I DO TO GET OUT OF INDIAN SPRINGS, I'D BE VERY SORRY
14 THAT I BOUGHT IN THERE.
15 CITY ENGINEER FOLKERS: THE PLAN, AS I UNDERSTAND IT,
16 IS TO HAVE A MINIMUM OF FIVE LANES DOWN THROUGH THAT AREA.
17 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: ON 74?
18 CITY ENGINEER FOLKERS: YES. SIMILAR TO WHAT IS
19 FURTHER DOWN TOWARDS TOWN: TWO MOVING LANES AND A TURNING
20 LANE.
21 COUNCILMAN CRITES: LET ME ASK A QUESTION. NOT WITH
22 THIS PROJECT PARTICULARLY, BUT A LOT OF TIMES WE'VE
23 APPROVED SOMETHING AND THE ENTRANCE TO IT IS OFFSET FROM
24 SOMETHING ELSE. AND ABOUT THREE YEARS LATER, HERE COME
25 ABOUT 150 PEOPLE WHO CAN'T GET IN AND OUT OF THE HIGHWAY.
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT "A'
274
10 1 AND OBVIOUSLY, THEY ALL WANT ONE THING. THEY WANT A
2 TRAFFIC SIGNAL. EVERYBODY LOVES A TRAFFIC SIGNAL WHERE
3 THEY GO ON THE HIGHWAY, AND EVERYBODY HATES THEM
4 EVERYPLACE WHERE THEY DON'T GO ON AND OFF THE HIGHWAY.
5 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: YOU COULD PUT A FRONTAGE ROAD
6 IN.
7 COUNCILMAN CRITES: PUT A FRONTAGE ROAD. YES, A
8 TWO-WAY FRONTAGE ROAD. THAT WILL KEEP THE COUNCIL BUSY
9 FOR 20 MORE YEARS AND UNELECTED.
10 DOESN'T IT MAKE -- JUST -- OBVIOUSLY, I'M
11 BIASING THE QUESTION. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT MAKES
12 SIMPLE, GOOD, COMMON SENSE WHEN THE WESTINGHOUSE -- WHEN
13 MR. HAYHOE'S LAND ENDS ABOUT 20 FEET AWAY FROM CAHUILLA
14 WAY, THAT WE GO FORTH AND SMILE AT THE FOLKS FROM
15 WESTINGHOUSE AND PUT A JOINT ENTRANCE FOR WHAT MUST BE
16 ABOUT 1,000 HOMES OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT FROM BOTH SIDES,
17 AND HAVE THEM GO RIGHT IN AND OUT EXACTLY OPPOSITE TO
18 WHERE ALL OF CAHUILLA HILLS GOES IN AND OUT.
19 IT'S A PERFECT PLACE TO PUT A LIGHT. AND WE'VE
20 TENDED TO CAHUILLA HILLS AND WE'VE TENDED TO WHATEVER
21 WESTINGHOUSE MAY OR MAY NOT DO, AND WE'VE TENDED TO
22 MR. HAYHOE'S CONCERNS. AND IT WILL SAVE SOME FUTURE GROUP
23 OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING YOU, FROM HAVING TO SIT HERE AND
24 CATCH HELL ABOUT THE NEED FOR FOUR MORE TRAFFIC LIGHTS.
25 CAN WE GO BACK AND REVISIT THAT ISSUE AND TRY
M NUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DES- T CITY COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1,1991
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EXHIBIT 'A'
275
10 1 TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN?
2 CITY ENGINEER FOLKERS: THAT'S ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY.
3 THAT WAS THE STAFF RECOMMENDATION, THAT'S WHAT WE PURSUED
4 WITH CALTRANS. IT DID NOT -- WHEN WE FINALLY GOT TO THE
5 ULTIMATE PLAN THAT CALTRANS APPROVED, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
6 SO WE DEFINITELY CAN GO BACK AND TALK WITH
7 THEM. YOU KNOW, THE DOOR IS NEVER CLOSED ON ANY OF THE
8 NEGOTIATIONS WITH CALTRANS.
9 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THE DOOR IS ALWAYS CLOSED.
10 CITY ENGINEER FOLKERS: WELL, NO. WE DEFINITELY CAN
11 TALK WITH THEM AGAIN. AND IF THE COUNCIL DIRECTS, YOU
12 KNOW, WE'LL --
13 COUNCILMAN CRITES: NEVER MIND.
14 CITY ENGINEER FOLKS: -- TALK WITH THEM.
15 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: I CONCUR. I THINK WE ALL AGREE
16 THAT IT BELONGS UP THERE. AND THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT
17 OF EMPLOYEE TRAFFIC, ET CETERA, FOR BIGHORN THAT'S ALSO
18 GOING TO COME OUT OF THAT SAME STREET. WHAT'S THE NAME OF
19 THE STREET?
20 COUNCILMAN CRITES: CAHUILLA WAY.
21 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: CAHUILLA WAY.
22 THAT THAT'S THE ONLY LOGICAL PLACE FOR THE
23 ENTRANCE. WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO MAKE THAT
24 HAPPEN THAT WAY.
25 THE FOLKS ON THE EAST SIDE HAVE AN ADVANTAGE
MINT S
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EXHIBIT 'A'
276
10 1 OVER YOU, JEAN. THEY ALWAYS COME OUT TO THE RIGHT.
2 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: RIGHT. I KNOW.
3 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: AND WHEN THEY COME BACK, THEY
4 HAVE ONLY ONE LANE OF TRAFFIC TO CROSS TO GET BACK IN
5 AGAIN. THEY'RE ONLY WORKING WITH ONE LANE ALL THE TIME.
6 YOU'RE WORKING WITH TWO.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: OKAY.
8 MR. WHITE: MAY I HELP CLARIFY THE MOVE OF THAT REAL
9 QUICKLY, PLEASE? DUE TO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF HOMES FOR
10 BOTH WESTINGHOUSE AND US IN THAT LOCATION, YOU NEED MORE
11 THAN ONE ENTRANCE. WESTINGHOUSE ONLY HAS ONE. CALTRANS
12 HAS TOTALLY SHUT THEM OFF FROM ANY ADDITIONAL ENTRANCE
13 FURTHER SOUTH ALONG THE HIGHWAY.
14 SO THE NATURAL SOLUTION, TO CALTRANS, WAS
15 CREATE A SECOND ENTRANCE FURTHER AWAY BECAUSE ITS FACING
16 BETWEEN SILVER SPRINGS AND CAHUILLA WAY WAS ABSOLUTELY
17 UNACCEPTABLE BECAUSE IT WAS ONLY ABOUT 150 FEET. THIS IS
18 THE ONLY NEXT LOGICAL PLACE THEY COULD CREATE A SECOND
19 ENTRANCE.
20 THE ROADWAY WILL BE WIDENED. THERE WILL BE
21 LEFT -TURN LANES IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, THERE WILL BE FREE
22 RIGHT -TURN LANES, THERE WILL BE EXTRA WIDE PARKWAYS, AND
23 THEN THEY'LL PROVIDE BOULEVARD STOPS ON BOTH SIDES.
24 IF YOU STAND A CHANCE OF GETTING -- YOU KNOW
25 WHAT CALTRANS IS LIKE. YOU SAID IT YOURSELF -- A SIGNAL
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EXHIBIT 'A'
277
1 AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE FOR THIS INTERSECTION BETWEEN
2 ALL THESE PROJECTS, THIS IS THE ONE, WHERE IT IS NOW, THAT
3 YOU STAND THE BEST CHANCE OF GETTING ANOTHER ONE FOR. THE
4 ONE AT CAHUILLA HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED WITH CALTRANS
5 AND WESTINGHOUSE, AND THEY AGREE THAT THAT WOULD BE ONE IN
6 THE FUTURE.
7 COUNCILMAN CRITES: I'M JUST SAYING THAT'S EXACTLY
8 THE ISSUE. THERE SHOULD BE ONE SIGNAL. AND THAT'S ONE OF
9 THE PROBLEMS I THINK WE HAVE WITH THE STREETS AROUND TOWN,
10 IS THAT WE -- EVERY UMTEEN FEET WE CLOG THEM UP WITH A
11 SIGNAL. IF WE NEED A SECONDARY ENTRANCE SOMEWHERE, IF
12 THAT'S, FOR SOME REASON, NECESSARY, SO BE IT. BUT THE
13 PRIMARY ENTRANCE SHOULD BE A SIGNALIZED ENTRANCE.
14 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T LIKE
15 SIGNALS, WOULD WE WANT TO CONDITION THIS TO IF THERE
16 BECOMES A SIGNAL THAT THEY WOULD PARTICIPATE?
17 MAYOR SNYDER: ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION BY THE COUNCIL?
18 COUNCILMAN CRITES: ONE OTHER QUESTION FOR THE
19 CONSULTING BIOLOGIST, SOMETHING THAT'S DISAPPEARED THROUGH
20 THE PLANNING COMMISSION RECOMMENDATIONS.
21 YOU HAD, AT LEAST IN THE INITIAL
22 RECOMMENDATIONS, BOTH HAD PROPOSED A BUILDING, EITHER
23 MORATORIUM OR SETBACK FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF THE YEAR.
24 AND SECONDLY, YOU HAD PROPOSED A FENCING OR WALL OR
25 ET CETERA, AND THOSE DISAPPEARED DURING THE PLANNING
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EXHIIBIT "A"
278
1 COMMISSION HEARINGS.
2 ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THE PLANNING
3 COMMISSION'S RESPONSE OR DOES YOUR PROFESSIONAL OPINION
4 STILL HOLD THAT THOSE TWO CONDITIONS ARE APPROPRIATE?
5 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: I THOUGHT THEY WERE IN HERE,
6 THE CONDITIONS ABOUT THE -- I READ THEM.
7 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THEY'RE NOT CONDITIONS THAT WERE
8 PROPOSED IN THE E.I.R.
9 SO WHAT I'M ASKING IS: IS OUR BIOLOGICAL
10 CONSULTANT SATISFIED WITH WHAT IS THERE NOW, OR IS THE
11 RECOMMENDATION FROM THE BIOLOGICAL CONSULTANT FOR WHAT HE
12 RECOMMENDED ORIGINALLY?
13 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: IN OTHER WORDS, THOSE
14 CONDITIONS THAT ARE IN THERE, YOU'RE ASKING HIM HIS
15 COMMENT ON THOSE?
16 COUNCILMAN CRITES: UH-HUH.
17 MS. ADAMS: BEFORE MR. BEAUCHAMP ANSWERS, I THINK THE
18 TWO CONDITIONS -- OR THE ONE CONDITION YOU'RE TALKING
19 ABOUT IS THE SIX-MONTH RESTRICTION ON GRADING DURING THE
20 LAMBING SEASON.
21 AM I CORRECT, COUNCILMAN CRITES?
22 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THAT'S ONE OF THEM, YEAH.
23 MS. ADAMS: THAT WAS IN THE E.I.R., THAT THE PLANNING
24 COMMISSION -- THAT WAS IN THE DRAFT E.Z.R. AS A PROPOSED
25 MITIGATION FOR CONSIDERATION.
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279
1 COUNCILMAN CRITES: ALL RIGHT.
2 MS. ADAMS: BUT IT WASN'T -- IT IS NOT NOW IN THE
3 RESOLUTION BECAUSE AS NEAR AS POSSIBLE --
4 COUNCILMAN CRITES: RIGHT.
5 MS. ADAMS: I JUST WANTED TO MAKE THAT CLARIFICATION,
6 IF I MIGHT.
7 COUNCILMAN CRITES: RIGHT.
8 NOW MY QUESTION IS: IS IT THE OPINION OF THE
9 CONSULTING BIOLOGIST THAT IT OUGHT TO BE ON THE LIST OF
10 MITIGATION MEASURES, OR ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THE
11 DELETION OF IT AS BY THE PLANNING COMMISSION?
12 MR. BEAUCHAMP: IT WAS PUT IN THE DOCUMENT ON OUR
13 ORIGINAL BIOLOGICAL REPORT BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY WE FELT,
14 AND WE HAVEN'T CHANGED OUR MINDS ON THAT ISSUE. THAT'S
15 FROM JANUARY TO JUNE, AND THAT'S BASED ON THE FACT OF
16 QUICK NOISES RATHER THAN CONSTANT ROAD TRAFFIC, YOU KNOW,
17 HABITUATION OF THE SHEEP. BUT SUDDEN NOISES, LIKE A
18 NAILING GUN STARTS SUDDENLY GOING OFF OR A PIECE OF
19 MACHINERY CAUSING A DISRUPTION THAT WAY.
20 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THE SECOND ONE HAD TO DO WITH
21 FENCING BY THE PROJECT. AND I THINK YOU RECOMMENDED
22 SOMETHING LIKE AN 8-FOOT WALL, AND THE COMMISSION AND
23 STAFF SAID THAT IS NOT PRACTICAL AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.
24 DO YOU STILL RECOMMEND THAT 8-FOOT WALL, DO YOU
25 RECOMMEND SOMETHING THAT IS SMALLER THAN THAT, WOULD
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EXHIBIT 'A'
280
1 FENCING DO AS WELL, ET CETERA, ET CETERA?
2 MR. BEAUCHAMP: THE PURPOSE OF THE WALL WAS TO BE IN
3 CONJUNCTION WITH THIS 600 TO 1125, WHATEVER WAS CHOSEN,
4 NATURAL AREA. TO KEEP THAT PORTION OF THE -- ESPECIALLY
5 THE WASH AND ALSO THE AREA TO THE SOUTH AND THE ADJACENT
6 OFF -SITE BIGHORN INSTITUTE, FROM HAVING SECONDARY IMPACTS
7 FROM DOMESTIC ANIMALS, ESPECIALLY DOGS AND CATS, MORE SO
8 DOGS, AND FROM HAVING UNCONTROLLED -- WELL, HAVING ANY
9 KIND OF HUMAN ACTIVITY IN THAT AREA.
10 AND WE FELT THE WALL WAS THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE
11 THAT. WE THOUGHT FENCING WOULD ALLOW USURPATION OF THE
12 BARRIER EVENTUALLY, AND -- BUT IF THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE
13 A WASH PRESERVED INTACT, IT'S GOING TO BE A GOLF COURSE
14 EVENTUALLY, A DRAINAGE FACILITY, AND IF THE BUFFER IS
15 GOING TO ONLY BE 400 YARDS, IT MAKES IT RATHER MOOT.
16 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THANK YOU.
17 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: HEAVEN FORBID THAT WE'D PUT A
18 WALL ACROSS THERE BETWEEN OUR -- OUR HILLSIDE AND A
19 DEVELOPMENT. I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE THAT IN MY WILDEST
20 DREAMS.
21 MAYOR SNYDER: CITY ATTORNEY.
22 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: BEFORE THE COUNCIL MAKES ITS
23 DECISION, I JUST HAVE A COUPLE OF OTHER MINOR POINTS THAT
24 I WANTED TO BRING OUT, AND THAT IS: IF THERE ARE ANY
25 DISCREPANCIES BETWEEN THE MITIGATION MEASURES FOUND IN
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EXHIBIT "A"
281
1 EXHIBIT A, CEQA FINDINGS, AND THE STAFF REPORT, IT'S
2 STAFF'S UNDERSTANDING THAT THE EXHIBIT A WOULD CONTROL.
3 THAT'S OUR BELIEF. IT'S A MORE RECENT DOCUMENT AND MORE
4 COMPLETE.
5 NEXT, THERE IS, APPARENTLY, A CONDITION THAT
6 CALLS FOR A PAYMENT OF A FEE. IT'S CONDITION N0. 13. AND
7 WITHOUT GOING INTO DETAIL AT THIS POINT, WE WOULD
8 RECOMMEND THAT SOME REASONABLE TIME LIMIT THAT STAFF AND
9 THE APPLICANT -- IF THE COUNCIL WOULD APPROVE THE PROJECT,
10 THAT STAFF AND THE APPLICANT WORK OUT WOULD BE IMPOSED.
11 FOR EXAMPLE, THE YEAR OR SOME SUCH THING.
12 WE'LL WORK THAT OUT.
13 COUNCILMAN KELLY: TO DO WHAT?
14 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: TO PAY A FEE FOR A FENCE,
15 BASICALLY. CASH DEPOSIT, RIGHT.
16 AND THEN FINALLY -- THAT REALLY TAKES CARE OF
17 ALL OF THEM.
18 THANKS VERY MUCH.
19 MAYOR SNYDER: DO WE HAVE ANY MORE DISCUSSION,
20 QUESTIONS BY THE COUNCIL?
21 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: ON THE HILLSIDE LOTS, I KNOW
22 THAT BUFORD HAD SOME ON FOX'S PROPERTY AND SOME OF THE
23 OTHERS. WE TOOK ALL THE HILLSIDE LOTS OFF UNTIL WE LOOKED
24 AT THE ONES THAT WE FOUND OBJECTIONABLE AND THEN PUT THOSE
25 IN THE CONDITIONS. I REMEMBER I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT WE
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EXHIBIT 'A'
282
12 1 DID THAT. WE TOOK THE WHOLE ONES THAT WERE UP THERE AND
2 PICKED THE ONES THAT WE THOUGHT --
3 COUNCILMAN CRITES: I THINK IT READ SOMETHING LIKE
4 THE DEVELOPER IS ENTITLED TO UP TO "X," IF THEY CAN BE
5 SHOWN TO BE CONSISTENT WITH TA-DA, TA-DA, TA-DA, TO MY
6 RECOLLECTION.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: HE'S ENTITLED TO THE NUMBER HE'S
8 REQUESTED.
9 COUNCILMAN CRITES: IF --
10 MAYOR SNYDER: IF THEY MEET OUR CRITERIA.
11 COUNCILMAN CRITES: IF WE SO SIGNIFY.
12 MAYOR SNYDER: OKAY. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR
13 DISCUSSIONS?
14 ARE WE READY TO MAKE A DECISION?
15 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: THERE'S ONLY ONE -- I'M
16 SORRY. I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT.
17 ON CONDITIONS 30 AND 35, THEY CALL FOR CERTAIN
18 OFF -SITE IMPROVEMENTS TO BE COMPLETED. AND THE ONLY THING
19 THAT I WOULD ADD WOULD BE THAT STAFF AND THE APPLICANT
20 WILL MAKE SURE THAT ANY SUCH REQUIREMENTS ARE IN
21 ACCORDANCE WITH WHATEVER CONSTRAINTS THERE ARE UNDER
22 CALIFORNIA LAW. FOR EXAMPLE, UNDER AB-1600 OR ANY OTHER
23 STATUTES LIKE THAT.
24 THANK YOU.
25 MAYOR SNYDER: I THINK WE'VE HEARD ABOUT ALL TO BE
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EXHIBIT 'A'
283
12 1 HEARD ABOUT THIS PROJECT.
2 WHAT IS THE DECISION OF THE COUNCIL?
3 COUNCILMAN CRITES: I GUESS THE QUESTION BECOMES
4 WHETHER OR NOT WE FEEL ABLE TO, AT THIS POINT, RENDER A
5 DECISION THIS EVENING OR IF WE WISH TO COME BACK IN EITHER
6 ONE OR TWO DAYS AND RENDER THAT DECISION. THAT'S A MATTER
7 FROM DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S PERSPECTIVE.
8 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I THINK THERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION
9 YOU RAISED EARLIER, THE POSSIBILITY OF A DEVELOPMENT
10 AGREEMENT BEING BETTER THAN JUST AN OUTRIGHT APPROVAL.
11 AND I THOUGHT I HEARD THE CITY ATTORNEY INDICATE THAT A
12 DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT MIGHT BE MORE CONDUCIVE TO ALL THE
13 VARIOUS PIECES THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.
14 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: INDEED, IT WOULD GIVE ME
15 SOME MORE COMFORT. THERE ARE SOME PROBLEMS, THOUGH, WITH
16 IT, THAT I SHOULD TELL YOU ABOUT.
17 ONE IS THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE MORE TIME TO DO
18 IT. IT HAS TO GO THROUGH THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THIS
19 COUNCIL. IT'S AN ORDINANCE ACTION; IT REQUIRES A PUBLIC
20 HEARING. SECOND, IT WILL OPEN THAT PART OF THE ISSUE UP
21 TO A REFERENDUM, WHICH COULD FURTHER DELAY.
22 COUNCILMAN CRITES: ARE WE NOT NOW SUBJECT TO A
23 REFERENDUM, ANYHOW?
24 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: TO THE EXTENT THAT WE HAVE
25 THE CHANGE OF ZONE, YES, I THINK THAT WE DO HAVE THAT,
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EXHIBIT 'A'
284
12 1 DON'T WE?
2 RAY DOESN'T LIKE THE IDEA.
3 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: FOR THE CHANGE OF ZONE,
4 YEAH. WE BELIEVE THAT ONE OF THE CONDITIONS THAT WE HAVE
5 SET FORTH TYING IT TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT,
6 THAT WE CANNOT RECEIVE ANY MORE CONDITIONS -- MORE
7 ASSURANCES THAT WE HAVE NOW.
8 SECONDLY, A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT, OF COURSE,
9 IS A TWO-EDGED SWORD. IT'S CONTRACT ZONING. THE
10 APPLICANT GETS SOMETHING; THE CITY GETS NOTHING -- GETS
11 SOMETHING.
12 AS CONTRACT ZONING, WE CANNOT REQUIRE AN
13 INDIVIDUAL TO ENTER INTO A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT. YOU
14 CAN'T SAY TO SOMEBODY, "YOU WILL ENTER INTO A DEVELOPMENT
15 AGREEMENT."
16 THIRDLY, IT MEANS GOING THROUGH THE ENTIRE
17 HEARING PROCESS AGAIN BECAUSE IT IS NOW A DIFFERENT
18 PROJECT, WHICH MEANS POTENTIALLY GOING THROUGH THIS ENTIRE
19 CEQA PROCESS AGAIN, POTENTIALLY.
20 SO THIS IS WHY STAFF WOULD RECOMMEND THAT WE
21 STAY -- AS SOME OF MY REPUBLICAN FRIENDS USED TO SAY, STAY
22 THE COURSE WITH THE RESOLUTION AND ORDINANCES THAT WE HAVE
23 NOW.
24 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: I MIGHT ADD THAT WE
25 ALREADY -- IF IT'S SOME CONSOLATION, WE -- WE ALREADY HAVE
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EXHIBIT 'A'
285
12 1 ON THE RECORD NOW, AS YOU MAY HAVE HEARD, AN AGREEMENT
2 WITH RESPECT TO CERTAIN ITEMS THAT I PLACED INTO THE
3 RECORD EARLIER TONIGHT. WE'VE GOT THAT.
4 AND IF WE'D LIKE TO HAVE THAT PLACED IN
5 WRITING, WE'LL HAVE THAT DONE IMMEDIATELY. THAT WOULD NOT
6 BE A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT, WOULD NOT OPEN THE MATTER UP
7 AGAIN, WOULD NOT REQUIRE ANY FURTHER HEARINGS. WE WOULD
8 SIMPLY PUT INTO WRITING WHAT THE APPLICANT, ON THE RECORD
9 TONIGHT, HAS AGREED TO.
10 THAT WOULD BE WITH RESPECT TO THE BUFFER, IF
11 THAT'S THE COUNCIL'S DECISION, AND WITH RESPECT TO THE
12 INDEMNITY AGREEMENT.
13 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I WOULD WITHDRAW MY SUGGESTION
14 FOR A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT IN VIEW OF WHAT I'VE HEARD.
15 MAYOR SNYDER: ARE WE WILLING TO ACCEPT A MOTION?
16 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE CAN
17 RESOLVE ALL THE ISSUES THAT ARE BROUGHT UP AND THAT WE
18 OUGHT TO MOVE AHEAD AND MAKE A DECISION. WE'VE FOOLED
19 WITH THIS THING LONG ENOUGH.
20 MAYOR SNYDER: MAKE A MOTION.
21 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: WELL, A COMMENT. AND, WHEN
22 APPROPRIATE, I'LL MAKE A MOTION AND WE CAN AT LEAST DEAL
23 WITH IT. AND THAT IS THAT OUR CITY HAS A REPUTATION IN
24 THE WHOLE VALLEY OF BEING A WELL -RUN CITY. AND ONE OF THE
25 REASONS THAT WE HAVE THAT REPUTATION IS BECAUSE WE'VE
13
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EXHIBIT 'A'
286
13 1 ALWAYS HEARD BOTH SIDES, WE'VE ALWAYS TAKEN A LOT OF TIME
2 TO RESOLVE ALL THE ISSUES, AND WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO
3 MAKE A COMPROMISE THAT, IN THE END, COMES OUT TO BENEFIT
4 EVERYBODY INVOLVED.
5 AND IT SEEMS LIKE THAT WE'VE TAKEN SUCH A
6 TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME TO TRY TO RESOLVE THIS
7 PARTICULAR ISSUE, AND IT COMES OF THAT CASE NOW WHERE
8 EVERYBODY HAS ASKED US TO MAKE THAT DECISION.
9 I -- I FEEL REAL BAD ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE
10 CITY HAS SOMEWHAT BEEN POLARIZED BY THIS PROBLEM BECAUSE
11 IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF US MAKING THE DECISION AND THE
12 DAMAGE TO THE REPUTATION OF THE CITY, BUT I HEAR PEOPLE
13 SAYING I'M NOT GOING TO DEAL WITH THAT BANK ANYMORE OR I'M
14 NOT GOING TO BUY AT THAT STORE ANYMORE BECAUSE SOMEBODY IS
15 IN FAVOR OF IT OR AGAINST IT OR WHATEVER. AND I THINK
16 THAT'S A SAD SITUATION.
17 I'M LOOKING AT THIS PROJECT, AND I SEE -- AND
18 WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT. WE KEEP -- THE
19 ENVIRONMENT IS THE BIG THING THAT WE'RE ALL CONCERNED
20 WITH. IT'S BEEN ZONED FOR YEARS FOR 15 OR 1600
21 RESIDENTS -- UM -- UNITS. AND HERE WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY
22 FOR 450 UNITS IN A REAL UPSCALE -TYPE DEVELOPMENT,
23 SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE A REAL ASSET TO THE CITY OF PALM
24 DESERT. AND, ACTUALLY, YOU CAN LOOK AT IT AS IT'S GOING
25 TO PRESERVE OPEN SPACE FOR -- TO THE END OF TIME AS FAR AS
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EXHIBIT 'A'
287
13 1 PALM DESERT IS CONCERNED, BECAUSE WE KNOW WE'RE ONLY GOING
2 TO HAVE 450 UNITS IN A GOOD-LOOKING PROJECT THERE.
3 AND I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT WE ALL -- I'M SURE
4 I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT FEELS THAT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE
5 IS DOING AN OUTSTANDING JOB. I LOVE BIGHORN SHEEP. I'M
6 AN OUTDOORS PERSON. MY IDEA OF A VACATION IS TO GO
7 BACKPACKING IN THE HIGH SIERRAS. I'VE DONE THAT ALL MY
8 LIFE. MY WHOLE FAMILY IS INVOLVED IN PROTECTION OF THE
9 ENVIRONMENT.
10 SO I DO RESENT PEOPLE PUTTING ME ON THE SPOT
11 AND TELLING ME THAT IF I DON'T VOTE AGAINST THIS PROJECT
12 THAT I -- I'M AGAINST THE SHEEP. AND THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT
13 AT ALL THE SITUATION.
14 AND ALL THE CONDITIONS THAT I READ IN EXHIBIT A
15 AND THE CONDITIONS THAT WE HAVE AND OTHER ONES THAT WE'VE
16 TALKED ABOUT TONIGHT, HEAVENS, WE'VE DONE EVERYTHING
17 POSSIBLE TO MITIGATE ANY PROBLEM YOU HAVE WITH THE SHEEP.
18 THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY LIGHTS, THERE'S NOT GOING TO
19 BE ANY DOGS. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A 400-YARD BUFFER. AND
20 I HAPPEN TO THINK THAT FISH AND GAME IS IN CHARGE OF THE
21 SHEEP AND IT'S THEIR RESPONSIBILITY AND THEY FEEL THAT 400
22 YARDS IS PROPER.
23 AND AS I READ ALL OF THE COMMENTS FROM THE
24 BIOLOGISTS, IT SEEMS LIKE THEY'RE CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT
25 WILD BIGHORN SHEEP. AND THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WILD
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EXHIBIT 'A'
288
13 1 BIGHORN SHEEP AND THE PROJECT THAT'S HAPPENING THERE.
2 THEY'RE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. AND I CAN'T HELP BUT -- I
3 HAVE TO THINK THAT IF I AM TO LISTEN TO EXPERTS, THAT
4 MR. DE FORGE IS AN EXPERT AND HIS OPINION WAS THAT THEY
5 COULD OPERATE THERE.
6 WHICH OPINION AM I SUPPOSED TO LISTEN TO, THE
7 ONE THAT HE HAD TWO YEARS AGO OR THE ONE HE HAS NOW? OR
8 WHICH BIOLOGIST AM I SUPPOSED TO LISTEN TO? I FEEL LIKE
9 I'M AN INTELLIGENT PERSON, AND I CAN FIGURE THAT ALL OUT
10 MYSELF AND WHAT THE REACTION OF THE SHEEP THAT I SAW IS.
11 I THOUGHT -- I'VE ONLY SEEN ONE SHEEP RUNNING.
12 AND I WAS IN A HELICOPTER, AND THAT SHEEP WAS DOING
13 80 MILES AN HOUR. HE WAS SCARED TO DEATH OF A HELICOPTER.
14 AND I THINK THAT IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT SCARES THE
15 SHEEP, IT'S GOING TO BE SOMETHING -- AN AIRPLANE OR A
16 HELICOPTER.
17 SO FROM MY STANDPOINT, I THINK WE'VE -- WELL, I
18 SHOULD MENTION. I MAY NOT AGREE WITH HOW THE PLANNING
19 DEPARTMENT HANDLED IT, BUT THEY DID -- WHETHER WE AGREE
20 WITH HOW THEY HANDLED IT OR NOT, THEY DID APPROVE THE
21 PROJECT UNANIMOUSLY.
2" AND, ALSO, I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ALL THE OTHER
23 PROPERTY AROUND THERE AND ADJACENT AND THE OWNERS AND --
24 AND THEIR OPPORTUNITY TO -- HAD SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT
14
25 WHAT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE DID THERE.
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EXHIBIT 'A'
289
14 1 SO ON THE BASIS OF ALL THAT, I WOULD MOVE THAT
2 WE APPROVE THE PROJECT WITH A 400-YARD BUFFER AND WITH THE
3 CONDITIONS THAT WE'VE ALL SPECIFIED HERE TONIGHT.
4 MAYOR SNYDER: DO I HAVE A SECOND?
5 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: JUST SO I'M CLEAR, WE DO
6 HAVE, I THINK, THREE ITEMS BEFORE US. ONE IS A CHANGE OF
7 ZONE, ONE IS A RESOLUTION ON THE TRACT MAP, AND ONE IS A
8 RESOLUTION, I THINK, CERTIFYING THE E.I.R.
9 IT MIGHT BE -- PERHAPS THE FIRST THING TO DO
10 WOULD BE TO MOVE TO CERTIFY THE E.I.R.
11 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I WOULD MOVE FOR CERTIFICATION OF
12 THE E.I.R.
13 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: SECOND.
14 MAYOR SNYDER: PLEASE VOTE.
15 COUNCILMAN CRITES: LET ME ASK A QUICK QUESTION.
16 WHAT DOES CERTIFICATION OF THE E.I.R. IMPLY?
17 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: EITHER ANDI OR I CAN ANSWER
18 THAT.
19 MS. ADAMS: THE --
20 MAYOR SNYDER: THE CITY ATTORNEY CAN ANSWER IT.
21 YOU SAID YOU CAN ANSWER IT?
22 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: WELL, SURE.
23 WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT YOU ACCEPT THE DOCUMENT
24 AS BEING SUFFICIENT AND SATISFACTORY, AND THAT'S BASICALLY
25 IT. YOU AGREE THAT IT IS THE DOCUMENT THAT YOU'RE GOING
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EXHIBIT 'A'
290
14 1 TO FOLLOW.
2 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THANK YOU.
3 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: AND, ALSO, THERE ARE CERTAIN
4 FINDINGS CONTAINED WITHIN THE E.I.R. YOU ACCEPT THOSE AS
5 WELL. ON EXHIBIT A.
6 MAYOR SNYDER: OKAY. WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND.
7 WOULD EVERYBODY PLEASE VOTE.
8 COUNCILMAN CRITES: DOES THAT MEAN, THEN, THAT WE
9 ACCEPT THE CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL AND ALL THE REST OF THAT
10 BY VOTING FOR THIS?
11 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY ARE
12 CONTAINED IN THE E.I.R., YES. BUT THAT'S MEANINGLESS
13 UNTIL YOU REALLY THEN GO TO THE NEXT TWO, WHICH IS THE
14 ADOPTION OF THE MAP, WHICH THEN IMPLEMENTS THE CONDITIONS,
15 AND MAKE THE ZONE CHANGE.
16 YOU CAN'T -- IF YOU CERTIFY AN E.I.R., AND
17 THAT'S ALL YOU DO, IT DOESN'T ATTACH, REALLY, TO ANYTHING.
18 IT'S JUST -- AS A DOCUMENT ITSELF, IT'S NOT COMPLETE. ITS
19 FINDINGS ARE SATISFACTORY, THE MITIGATION MEASURES
20 CONTAINED WITHIN IT ARE SATISFACTORY.
21 ALL RIGHT. THEN WHAT YOU DO BY ADOPTING, THEN,
22 THE TENTATIVE MAP AND APPROVE THAT IS THEN THE CONDITIONS
23 IN THE E.I.R., LIKE WE HAVE HERE, ARE BASICALLY GOING TO
24 APPLY.
25 COUNCILMAN WILSON: OKAY. NOW YOU'VE CONFUSED THE
1
4
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EXH BIT 'A'
291
1 MAKER OF THE MOTION.
2 I WILL CERTIFY, IN ALL OF THIS STUFF I'VE SPENT
3 MONTHS TRYING TO READ AS -- THAT I BELIEVE THAT IT
4 ADEQUATELY ADDRESSES ALL OF THE ISSUES.
5 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: RIGHT.
6 COUNCILMAN WILSON: SPELLS OUT REASONABLE
7 ALTERNATIVES, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.
8 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: RIGHT.
9 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I AM NOT SURE THAT I AM, WITH
10 THAT, IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH THE RECOMMENDATION THAT WAS
11 HANDED US TONIGHT IN AN EXHIBIT A. IS THAT --
12 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?
13 COULD WE HAVE JUST A MOMENT?
14 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.)
15 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: I THINK WE UNDERSTAND YOUR
16 QUESTION NOW, AND LET ME RESPOND TO IT.
17 IF YOU ARE CERTIFYING THE E.I.R., YOU'RE --
18 THAT IMPLIES THAT YOU ARE CERTIFYING AND AGREEING WITH
19 THIS. SO IF YOU HAVE SOME CONCERNS ABOUT THIS, LET'S
20 COVER THAT NOW.
21 THERE -- THERE WERE, I BELIEVE, NOT THAT MANY
22 CHANGES, BUT LET'S LOOK AT THEM AND COVER THEM.
23 COUNCILMAN WILSON: SPECIFICALLY, PAGE 15, ITEM
24 NO. 20.
25 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: THAT WAS REVISED. IF YOU
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14 1 ACCEPT WHAT I HAD PLACED ON THE RECORD EARLIER, THAT WAS
2 REVISED BY WHAT I SAID. AND WHAT IS BEFORE YOU NOW WOULD
3 BE ITEM 20 ON PAGE 15, AS I READ IT INTO THE RECORD.
4 SO THAT I UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEFORE YOU NOW,
5 YOU MAY OR MAY NOT AGREE WITH WHAT IT IS THAT I PLACED ON
6 THE RECORD, BUT THAT'S WHAT I UNDERSTOOD YOUR MOTION TO
7 INCLUDE, COUNCILMAN WILSON.
8 COUNCILMAN WILSON: THAT'S THE PROBLEM. WHAT YOU'RE
9 DOING WITH ITEM 20 IS, YOU'RE SPECIFYING A SPECIFIC
10 SOLUTION. AND WHAT I AM CERTIFYING IS THAT THE
11 ENVIRONMENTAL ANALYSIS AND THE OPTIONS ARE OUT THERE
12 BEFORE US, I THINK, ADEQUATELY. AND, IN FACT, VERY WELL
13 DONE. I THINK THIS IS A VERY GOOD E.I.R.
14 HOWEVER, I'M NOT READY TO BUY IN WITHOUT
15 FURTHER DISCUSSION MOVING INTO THE FISH AND GAME
16 RECOMMENDATION VERSUS SOME OF THE OTHER OPTIONS THAT ARE A
17 PART OF THE E.I.R. FOR US TO CONSIDER.
18 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: JUST SO YOU UNDERSTAND, THAT
19 IF YOU VOTE TO APPROVE THIS PARTICULAR MOTION CERTIFYING
20 THE E.I.R., YOU ARE ADDRESSING ITEM -- YOU ARE ADDRESSING
21 ITEM 20. YOU REALLY ARE.
22 AND NOW I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION, AND THE
23 ANSWER IS YES. YOU ARE ADDRESSING ITEM 20, SO WE BETTER
24 COVER IT WITH THIS MOTION.
25 COUNCILMAN WILSON: THEN I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MY
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2 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: THEN I'LL MAKE THE MOTION.
3 MAYOR SNYDER: I'LL SECOND IT.
4 NOW, DO YOU WANT TO DISCUSS --
5 COUNCILMAN CRITES: IS NOW THE APPROPRIATE TIME FOR
6 DISCUSSION?
7 MAYOR SNYDER: CERTAINLY.
8 COUNCILMAN CRITES: I'D LIKE TO GO DOWN A COUPLE OF
9 DIFFERENT COMMENTS, WALTER, THAT DEAL WITH THINGS --
10 ITEM 20 AND OTHER THINGS.
11 MAYOR SNYDER: GO RIGHT -AHEAD.
12 COUNCILMAN CRITES: I THINK, AS YOU HAVE SAID, THAT
13 IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT -- THAT THE POLARIZATION HAS
14 OCCURRED IN WHICH PEOPLE WHO ARE FOR THIS PROJECT ARE
15 LABELED AS BEING AGAINST THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE AND AGAINST
16 SHEEP AND AGAINST ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES. I THINK THEY ARE
17 GOOD AND HONEST PEOPLE WHO FIND THIS A GOOD PROJECT WHO
18 ARE ALSO FAVORABLE TO THAT.
19 I ALSO THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT POSITIVELY
20 DISPOSED TOWARDS THIS PROJECT ARE NOT APPROPRIATELY
21 LABELED ANTIDEVELOPMENT. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN
22 FAVOR OF THIS PROJECT WHO HAVE BEEN VERY PRODEVELOPMENT,
23 AS GIVEN FROM A NUMBER OF BUSINESS -- LETTERS FROM
24 BUSINESS PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE
25 BEEN AGAINST THIS PROJECT.
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15 1 THE ISSUES SEEM TO BE AS FOLLOWS: FIRST, THE
2 ISSUE OF LAND HISTORY. AND I THINK, FROM EVERYTHING THAT
3 I HAVE READ, THAT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE HAS AND DID MAKE
4 SERIOUS MISTAKES IN THE INITIAL WAY IN WHICH THEY
5 APPROACHED THIS. WHETHER THOSE ARE, CORRECTLY OR NOT,
6 GOING TO BE ADJUDICATED IN THEIR FAVOR, NOT IN THEIR FAVOR
7 IN TERMS OF LAWSUITS IS NOT OUR BUSINESS.
8 MR. ZEILENGA'S COMMENTS ON THAT, I THINK, ARE
9 PROBABLY MORE APPROPRIATE FOR THE INCLUSION IN AN
10 EXCELLENT CHAPTER IN THE ART OF SOPHISTRY, AND I DON'T
11 THINK IT NEEDS ANY MORE DEALING WITH THAN I DID THE OTHER
12 RESPONSE, WHICH WAS TO GO AFTER MR. TURNER AS BEING AN
13 INCOMPETENT WITNESS OR FOR OTHER REASONS. I PERSONALLY
14 STRIKE BOTH THOSE THINGS AS HAVING ANY CREDIBILITY.
15 FOR BETTER OR WORSE, AS OUR CITY ATTORNEY
16 POINTS OUT, TO US, THE ISSUE IS THE LAND USE AS IT EXISTS
17 NOW AND THE NEED OR LACK OF NEED FOR BUFFERING FOR THE
18 EXISTING LAND USE. WHETHER THE INSTITUTE SHOULD OR SHOULD
19 NOT BE THERE IS, BY LAW, NOT THE ISSUE BEFORE US. THE
20 ISSUE BEFORE US IS THAT IT IS THERE. AND THE ISSUE BEFORE
21 US, THEN, IS WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS AN APPROPRIATE NEED
22 FOR A BUFFER ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER ISSUES THAT ARE
23 BEFORE US.
24 IN TERMS OF THE LAND PLANNING OF THE
25 DEVELOPMENT ITSELF, I COULD DO NOTHING BUT COMPLIMENT THE
l
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15 1 DEVELOPER WHEN THIS CAME FORTH OVER A YEAR AGO. IT WAS, I
2 THOUGHT, A VERY NORMAL, WE'RE GOING TO GO ROLL OUT THE
3 PETUNIAS AND PUT IN A COUNTRY CLUB KIND OF THING. AND
4 NOTHING BUT CREDIT FOR THE INCREASED LEVEL OF SENSITIVITY
5 TO THE ENVIRONMENT AND TO ISSUES THAT I THINK WILL,
6 HOPEFULLY, MAKE YOUR PROJECT A MORE SALABLE PROJECT BY THE
7 KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU'VE DONE.
8 IN TERMS OF, ESPECIALLY THE SOUTHERN AREA OF
9 THIS BEING BIGHORN HABITAT, WE HAVE SOME BIOLOGISTS WHO
10 SAY NO, WE HAVE A CONSULTING BIOLOGIST WHO SAYS YES, WE
11 HAVE FISH AND GAME THAT IS NOT SURE, WE HAVE UNITED STATES
12 FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE THAT SAYS IT IS MARGINAL
13 HABITAT. AND BOTH U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE AND THE
14 CONSULTING BIOLOGIST SUGGEST THAT MARGINAL HABIT, IN MANY
15 WAYS, IS AS IMPORTANT AS CORE HABITAT. AND SO TO SIMPLY
16 DISMISS THE DEVELOPER'S SUGGESTION THAT IT SIMPLY IS NOT
17 HABITAT IS NOT, I THINK, SUPPORTED BY THE DATA.
18 IN TERMS OF HILLSIDES, I THINK IT WOULD BE
19 APPROPRIATE FOR THIS COUNCIL TO CONDITION THAT THOSE LOTS
20 IN THE SOUTHEASTERLY COMPONENT, IF INDEED THERE WILL BE
21 LOTS THERE, BE SUBJECT TO PARTICULAR APPROVAL BY COUNCIL
22 SUBJECT TO OUR PERCEPTION OF THE HILLSIDE REGULATIONS AND
23 THEIR SUITABILITY TO THAT.
24 IN TERMS OF THE BUFFER., FOR BETTER OR WORSE, I
25 THINK THE INSTITUTE IS IN WHAT IS FAIRLY CLOSE TO BEING A
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15 1 UNIQUE SITE. WE'VE HEARD TESTIMONY FROM THE BLM THAT
2 SUGGESTS OTHER SITES TO THE SOUTH AND EAST OF HERE ARE NOT
3 AVAILABLE.
4 I DID NOT HAVE ANY GREAT ENTHUSIASM TO GO
5 WANDER AROUND THE MOUNTAINS IN A HELICOPTER. FEAR OF
6 HEIGHTS IS ONE OF MY PRIMARY THINGS IN LIFE, AND E-TICKET
7 RIDES ARE NOT ANYTHING THAT I LOOK FORWARD TO.
8 THE END RESULT OF THAT IS THAT I AM CONVINCED
9 THAT IF THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE SITES, THEY ARE FEW IN
10 NUMBER, AND PERHAPS -- ONLY, PERHAPS, FOR A WILDING PEN
11 CAN BE FOUND.
12 I THINK EVERYONE IS CORRECT WHEN THEY SAY THERE
13 IS A VARIETY OF OPINION, ALTHOUGH THEY QUOTE HALVES OF
14 PEOPLE'S OPINIONS. PEOPLE ARE FOND OF QUOTING THE LIVING
15 DESERT RESERVE SAYING, "WELL, WE HAVE ALMOST NO BUFFER,
16 AND WE DO WELL."
17 YET IF YOU ALSO READ KAREN SAUSMAN'S, DIRECTOR
18 OF THE LIVING DESERT'S LAST LETTER, HER COMMENT TO
19 CONCLUDE HER LETTER IS:
20 "IT IS OUR OPINION THE INSTITUTE
21 MAY NEED A LARGE BUFFER BETWEEN IT AND
22 ANY DEVELOPER IN ORDER FOR THEM TO CARRY
23 OUT OTHER IMPORTANT AREAS OF THEIR
24 RESEARCH."
25 AND THEY SUGGEST WE REVIEW THE RESPONSE OF
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15 1 SCIENTISTS SUCH AS DR. VAL GEIST WHEN CONSIDERING
2 RECOMMENDATIONS AND SO ON AND SO FORTH. AND HE IS AMONG
3 THE PEOPLE WHO RECOMMENDS A WHOLE MILE.
4 SO LIVING DESERT MAY, ON ONE SIDE, BE ON ONE
5 SIDE AND YET THEIR RECOMMENDATION IS FOR THE CONSIDERATION
6 OF A MAJOR BUFFER.
7 FISH AND GAME, STATE AGENCY, RECOMMENDS A
8 MINIMUM OF 400. U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE RECOMMENDS THE
9 BUFFER OF THE CONSULTING BIOLOGIST. THE MAJORITY OF
10 PEOPLE RECOMMEND THAT LARGER BUFFER.
11 THE ISSUE THAT STAFF BRINGS BEFORE US THIS
12 EVENING, WHICH IS TO SAY THAT FOR THREE YEARS THERE WILL
13 BE A 400-YARD BUFFER AND, IF CERTAIN THINGS DON'T HAPPEN
14 THE ENTIRETY OF THAT BUFFER DISAPPEARS, IS, TO ME, A SHAM.
15 I CAN FIND, PERSONALLY, NO WAY TO SAY THAT
16 THERE IS AN ENVIRONMENTAL NEED FOR A BUFFER, WHETHER THAT
17 BUFFER BE ONE FOOT OR 50 MILES, AND THEN SIMPLY SAY
18 BECAUSE SOMETHING DOES OR DOES NOT OCCUR BY A THIRD PARTY,
19 THE NEED FOR THAT BUFFER DISAPPEARS.
20 IF THERE'S A NEED FOR IT, THERE'S A NEED FOR
21 IT. IF THERE IS NOT A NEED FOR IT, THERE IS NOT A NEED
22 FOR IT. AND THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES OF THIRD PARTIES ARE
23 NOT THE DECIDING FACTOR ON WHAT THAT IS.
24 ANY DECISION THAT I THINK ANY OF US MAKES HAS,
25 WITHIN IT, ERROR. THE NUMBER THE BIOLOGIST SUGGESTS THAT
16
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16 1 WHILE 400 -- SEVERAL THEM THAT RECOMMENDED 400, IN THE
2 NEXT PARAGRAPH RECOMMEND THAT THERE IS AN ERROR AND THEY
3 RECOMMEND THE INCREASE OF 50 PERCENT FOR AN ERROR MARGIN.
4 AND NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, WE HAVE THE POTENTIAL
5 OF MAKING AN ERROR. AND IT IS A DECISION FOR EACH OF US,
6 THEN, TO DECIDE IN WHICH DIRECTION IT IS MOST APPROPRIATE
7 FOR US TO MAKE THAT DECISION. IN MY OPINION -- AND I
8 THINK I, AS MS. ARTIS SAID, AM TRYING TO REPRESENT MY
9 PERCEPTION OF THE CITIZENS OF PALM DESERT, WHOSE
10 PERCEPTIONS VARY GREATLY -- I THINK IT IS PROPER TO CHOOSE
11 TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF WHAT NATURE AND GOD HAS CREATED AND
12 GIVEN TO US FOR OUR CARE AND THAT THAT IS WORTHY OF OUR
13 CONSIDERATION AND THAT THAT IS WORTHY OF OUR PRIORITY.
14 THEREFORE, I CANNOT SUPPORT COUNCILMAN KELLY'S
15 MOTION.
16 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS SOME OF
17 THE ISSUES.
18 ITEM NO. 20 ON 15, WHICH I AM HAVING A PROBLEM
19 WITH, I AM NOT -- PARTS OF IT I LIKE, PARTS OF IT I DON'T
20 LIKE. I THINK WE -- THE REAL DILEMMA HERE THAT WE HAVE IS
21 THAT WE'VE GOT EXPERTS GIVING US DIFFERENT OPINIONS AS TO
22 WHAT THAT BUFFER SHOULD BE. I AM STILL NOT COMFORTABLE
23 WITH THE 400 YARDS. HOWEVER, WE ALSO, ON THE OTHER SIDE
24 OF THE COIN, HAVE A BASIC ISSUE OF PROPERTY RIGHTS.
25 AND WHAT I LIKE ABOUT ITEM 20 IS THAT THE
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16 1 BUFFER WILL BE PURCHASED. AND I THINK THAT WHATEVER WE
2 COME UP WITH, WHATEVER DECISION, IF IT'S 400 YARDS, 600
3 YARDS, 1100 YARDS, WHATEVER, IT SHOULD BE THE OBLIGATION
4 OF THE BIGHORN SHEEP INSTITUTE TO BUY THAT ACREAGE AT A
5 REASONABLE MARKET PRICE FROM THE DEVELOPERS OR THE OWNERS
6 OR THE VARIOUS PEOPLE THAT OWN THAT.
7 AND I THINK THE ISSUE IS HOW MUCH -- THE REAL
8 ISSUE IS: TO PROTECT THOSE SHEEP, HOW MUCH BUFFER IS
9 NECESSARY AND HOW MUCH BUFFER IS THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE
10 WILLING TO PURCHASE? AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE I'M
11 SITTING.
12 MAYOR SNYDER: WE HAVE A MOTION ON THE FLOOR, AND
13 IT'S BEEN SECONDED.
14 I FEEL THAT, TO ANSWER SOME OF THE QUESTIONS
15 THAT'S BEEN BROUGHT UP BY THE COUNCIL, I HAVE PERSONALLY
16 PUT MYSELF IN THE MIDDLE OF TRYING TO FIND A COMPROMISE
17 AND TRYING TO FIND AN ANSWER TO THIS PROGRAM. AND I'VE
18 DISCUSSED IT WITH EVERYBODY THAT WOULD COME ALONG. WE
19 MADE VARIOUS PROPOSALS OF HOW TO SAVE THIS THING.
20 TO SAY THAT ANY DECISION WE MAKE WOULD BE THE
21 DEMISE OF THE BIGHORN SHEEP, I FEEL, IS A GROSS
22 MISINTERPRETATION, AND I RESENT THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE SAID
23 THAT. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE BUFFER SHOULD BE, BUT I KNOW
24 THAT THE SIZE OF THE BUFFER HAS A BIG PROBLEM RELATIVE TO
25 OUR PRINCIPLE OF WHO OWNS WHAT AND HOW IT'S GOING TO BE
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17
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2 I F=LT THAT THE 400 YARDS WAS MORE THAN FAIR.
3 WE HAVE ASKED THE BIGHORN SHEEP PEOPLE TO SIT DOWN WITH US
4 FOR OVER A MONTH. WE'VE ASKED THEM TO COME UP WITH SOME
5 SOLUTIONS, SOME SUGGESTIONS, SOME WILLINGNESS TO MOVE FROM
6 THEIR POSITION. AND AS OF RIGHT NOW, THEIR POSITION HAS
7 NOT CHANGED ONE IOTA FROM WHEN WE STARTED IN JULY TO FIND
8 A COMPROMISE, TO FIND WHERE THEY COULD BACK OFF AND WHERE
9 THEY COULDN'T.
10 I DON'T BELIEVE THAT 100 OR 200 YARDS ONE WAY
11 OR THE OTHER IS GOING TO MAKE THAT BIG A DIFFERENCE. I
12 THINK THAT THE 400—YARD PROGRAM WHICH MADE THE DEVELOPER
13 MOVE FROM THE POSITION WHERE HE WANTED IT AS A GOLF COURSE
14 AND HE'S BEEN WILLING TO RENEGE FROM THAT POSITION AND
15 SAY, "I'LL GIVE YOU THE FULL 400 YARDS."
16 AND IN THE PROCESS OF THAT, OUR CITY ATTORNEY
17 HAS COME UP WITH A MANNER IN WHICH WE CAN PROTECT OURSELF
18 AND THE REST OF THE PARTICIPANTS IN THIS, THE FEAR OF
19 LITIGATION RELATIVE TO WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PROPERTIES THAT
20 ARE BEING INVOLVED, PRIMARILY THE DEL GAGNON PROPERTY AND
21 WHAT -- THAT'S THE ONLY THING THAT HE HAS SET FORTH, IS
22 THAT, "OKAY. WE WILL GIVE THE 400 YARDS."
23 AND THAT DOES INDEED TAKE THOSE PIECES OF
24 PROPERTIES AND MAKES THEM USELESS. BUT THERE WILL BE A
25 PERIOD OF THREE YEARS THAT SOME GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, THE
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17 1 B.H.I., PERHAPS THE BLM, WOULD BE INTERESTED IN BUYING IT,
2 OR EVEN THE FISH AND GAME WOULD BE INTERESTED IN BUYING
3 IT. IF NOT, MAYBE THE CITY WILL HAVE TO LOOK AT -- BE
4 INTERESTED IN BUYING IT. I CAN'T SEE THAT HAPPENING, BUT
5 THERE ARE THE OTHER ALTERNATIVES OF FISH AND GAME, BLM,
6 AND/OR THE INSTITUTE.
7 AND IT JUSTIFIES OUR POSITION, AND WE'RE NOT
8 LEAVING A PIECE OF PROPERTY OUT THERE AND DECLARING IT
9 NULL AND VOID AND NO LONGER ANY GOOD BY A DECISION WE MADE
10 WITHOUT MAKING AT LEAST SOME ATTEMPT TO JUSTIFY WHAT
11 HAPPENS TO THAT PIECE OF PROPERTY.
12 AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE DONE WITH THE -- WITH THE
13 ACTION BY OUR CITY ATTORNEY THIS AFTERNOON.
14 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: WELL, IF I COULD CLARIFY.
15 WHAT I HAD INTENDED BY MY ACTION TO DO WAS TO
16 ACTUALLY ELIMINATE THAT THREE-YEAR THAT -- THAT YOU'VE
17 MENTIONED. OTHERWISE, IT'S PRETTY MUCH THE SAME AS IT WAS
18 BEFORE, EXCEPT I ELIMINATED THE THREE-YEAR PERIOD.
19 AND YOU MAY RECALL WHAT IT IS THAT I STATED ON
20 THE RECORD. THERE WOULD BE -- I AM PROPOSING THAT
21 CONDITION 20 BE CHANGED AND PLACED BEFORE YOU FOR
22 CONSIDERATION TO READ THAT THERE WOULD BE A 400-YARD
23 BUFFER, PERIOD. ALL RIGHT. AND THAT -- THAT THE BUFFER
24 WOULDN'T DISAPPEAR IF THERE WAS NOT A PURCHASE OF AN
25 ADJOINING PROPERTY.
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17 1 THE 400-YARD -- AS I PLACED IT ON THE RECORD
2 FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION, IT WOULD READ, THEN, AS FOLLOWS:
3 "THAT A RESERVATION AREA, AS
4 SHOWN ON THE TENTATIVE TRACT MAP,
5 SHALL BE IMPOSED ON TENTATIVE
6 TRACT 25296 TO EFFECTUATE A 400-
7 YARD BUFFER, AS RECOMMENDED BY THE
8 CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND
9 GAME, AS MEASURED FROM THE 30-ACRE
10 PEN OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE IN A
11 NORTH/NORTHEASTERLY DIRECTION. NO
12 BUILDING OR GRADING PERMITS SHALL
13 ISSUE ON THE PROPERTY SHOWN AS THE
14 RESERVATION AREA ON THE TENTATIVE
15 TRACT MAP."
16 IN OTHER WORDS, JUST AS WE HAVE POINTED OUT
17 BEFORE, THAT 400 YARDS IS INDEED A BUFFER WHERE THERE
18 WOULD BE NO IMPROVEMENT.
19 "THE REVISION OF THE TENTATIVE
20 TRACT MAP TO REFLECT THE 400-YARD
21 BUFFER SHALL BE DEEMED IN SUBSTANTIAL
22 COMPLIANCE WITH THE ORIGINAL APPROVED
23 MAP PURSUANT TO THE SUBDIVISION MAP
24 ACT."
25 THAT'S A HOUSEKEEPING ITEM. THEN THERE WERE
1
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17 1 TWO PARAGRAPHS THAT I ADDED WHICH WOULD SAY:
2 "THE CITY RESERVES, HOWEVER,
3 THE ABILITY TO REVIEW AND
4 POTENTIALLY GRANT ANY APPLICATION
5 FOR DEVELOPMENT APPROVAL OF PROPERTY
6 WITHIN THE BUFFER AREA OTHER THAN
7 APPLICANT'S PROPERTY. SUCH REVIEW
8 SHALL BE IN ACCORD WITH THE
9 CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY ACT
10 AND ANY OTHER APPLICABLE MUNICIPAL,
11 STATE, OR FEDERAL LAW."
12 AND FINALLY, I STATE:
13 "THE CITY WILL CONSIDER
14 DENSITY TRANSFERS, TRANSFERS OF
15 DEVELOPMENT RIGHT OR SIMILAR RELIEF
16 TO RELIEVE ANY FINANCIAL BURDEN ON
17 ANY NONAPPLICANT PROPERTY OWNER
18 AFFECTED BY THE BUFFER AREA. AND
19 THE APPLICANT SHALL NEGOTIATE IN
20 GOOD FAITH TO PURCHASE THE DEL GAGNON
21 PROPERTY."
22 THE NEXT THING THAT I ADDED WAS THAT
23 INDEMNITY AGREEMENT. AND IT'S QUITE LENGTHY, BUT I PLACED
24 THAT ON THE RECORD BEFORE.
25 SO YOU SEE, AS I HAD AMENDED 20 FOR YOUR
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17 1 CONSIDERATION, THERE WAS NO THREE-YEAR PERIOD ANYMORE.
2 THERE HAD BEEN AT ONE POINT, BUT THERE WAS NO THREE-YEAR
3 PERIOD NOW.
4 ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT I'VE JUST
5 SAID?
6 COUNCILMAN WILSON: SO WHAT YOU HAVE DONE IS TAKEN
7 AWAY THE OBLIGATION OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE OR ANY OTHER
8 INTERESTED PARTY TO PURCHASE THE PROPERTY?
9 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: TO PURCHASE THE APPLICANT'S
10 BUFFER AREA. TO PURCHASE THE 400-YARD BUFFER ON THE
11 APPLICANT'S PROPERTY, ABSOLUTELY.
12 HOWEVER, THERE IS AN INDEMNITY AGREEMENT HERE.
13 THERE IS NO OBLIGATION FOR ANYBODY TO PURCHASE THE
14 DEL GAGNON PROPERTY. THERE IS AN ONUS ON THE DEVELOPER TO
15 NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH TO PURCHASE IT. AND IF HE IS
16 UNABLE TO DO THAT AND LITIGATION ENSUES, THERE IS AN
17 INDEMNITY AGREEMENT AS A LAST STAGE.
18 AM I CORRECT? I'M ASKING THE APPLICANT.
19 MR. BURNS: YES.
20 MR. HAYHOE: THAT IS CORRECT. WE ARE INDEMNIFYING
21 THE CITY AGAINST ANY PROBLEMS THAT MIGHT RESULT FROM THE
22 DEL GAGNON PROPERTY, AND THE 400-YARD BUFFER IS IN
23 PERPETUITY.
24 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: CORRECT.
25 MAYOR SNYDER: I THINK THAT -- DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT
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18
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2 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I UNDERSTAND IT.
3 I AM, NOW, NOT AS COMFORTABLE AS I WAS. I WAS
4 HALFWAY COMFORTABLE WITH NO. 20, AND NOW I'M NOT
5 COMFORTABLE AT ALL. AND IT GETS BACK TO --
6 LET ME THROW OUT SOMETHING FOR A SUGGESTION.
7 I -- THE REAL ISSUE: IS 400 YARDS ENOUGH TO PROTECT THE
8 SHEEP AT THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE? WE'VE HEARD TESTIMONY
9 FROM THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE THAT IT IS NOT.
10 WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST -- AND THIS IS NOT
11 GOING TO BE POPULAR -- BUT THAT WE -- I WOULD LIKE THIS TO
12 BE CONSIDERED AS A SUBSTITUTE MOTION TO THE MOTION ON THE
13 FLOOR, BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE THAT MOTION WILL PASS. IT'S
14 2-2 RIGHT NOW.
15 WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM JEAN YET, SO MAYBE I'LL
16 LET JEAN SPEAK, AND THEN I'LL MAKE MY SUGGESTION IF I
17 THINK THERE IS DOUBT THAT IT WILL PASS.
18 COUNCILWOMAN BENSON: WELL, I WAS WAITING, INSTEAD OF
19 TRYING TO BE LADIES FIRST.
20 I GUESS I AGREE WITH ROY IN THE SENSE THAT I'M
21 NOT SURE, EITHER, IF FOUR IS ENOUGH. I FEEL VERY STRONGLY
22 THAT WE ASK THE CONSULTING BIOLOGIST FOR HIS OPINION. I'M
23 VERY DISTURBED THAT STAFF THREW IT OUT, SAID THEIR OPINION
24 WAS BETTER. IF WE'D HAVE WANTED THEIR OPINION THEN, WE
25 WOULD HAVE ASKED.
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18 1 SO IT REALLY DISTURBS ME TO THINK THAT WE
2 WOULD, AND THE PLANNING COMMISSION, TOTALLY DISREGARD WHAT
3 WE ASKED THEM TO LOOK AT IN PRESERVING THE AREA.
4 AND THERE'S OTHER AREAS THAT I AM ALSO
5 DISTURBED ABOUT, BUT I DO ALSO FEEL THAT WE HAVE AN
6 OBLIGATION TO OVER 3,000 SIGNATURES AND THE PEOPLE OF PALM
7 DESERT THAT ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IT, NOT ONLY THOSE THAT
8 SPOKE, BUT ALL THOSE THAT HAVE SIGNED A PETITION HERE THAT
9 ARE TRUSTING IN US TO MAKE SOME DECISION.
10 AND I GUESS I'M LIKE BUFORD. IF I'M GOING TO
11 ERR, IT'S GOING TO BE ON THE SIDE OF THE SHEEP.
12 COUNCILMAN WILSON: LET ME TRY A SUBSTITUTE MOTION.
13 AND IT WOULD BE A MOTION THAT WE CONTINUE THIS
14 ITEM TILL 10:30 MONDAY MORNING, THAT WE MAKE IT --
15 OKAY. WHAT I WOULD -- WHERE I'M LEANING -- I
16 THINK THE PART OF THIS ITEM 20, THE 400-YARD UNDISTURBED
17 BUFFER, GUARANTEE AND INDEMNIFY AND ET CETERA, ET CETERA,
18 IS GOOD IF THE 400 YARDS IS A REASONABLE AMOUNT.
19 MR. ROBERTS, EARLIER THIS EVENING, OFFERED TO
20 HOLD A MEETING WITH THE INVOLVED PARTIES TOMORROW. I
21 WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT MEETING GO AHEAD, BUT I'D LIKE TO
22 SEE THAT MEETING FOCUS ON HOW MUCH MORE YARDAGE IS
23 NECESSARY TO PROTECT THE SHEEP AND HOW MUCH OF THAT
24 YARDAGE IS THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE WILLING TO PURCHASE
25 BEYOND THE 400?
MINUTES
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18 1 I THINK WE HAVE AN AGREEMENT FROM THE DEVELOPER
2 THAT HE WILL PROVIDE, UNOBSTRUCTED, THE 400 YARDS AND
3 ATTEMPT TO ACQUIRE THE DEL GAGNON PROPERTY AND HOLD THAT
4 IN PERPETUITY. BUT IF WE NEED ADDITIONAL YARDAGE, THEN I
5 THINK THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE SHOULD PURCHASE IT.
6 AND SO WHAT I AM SUGGESTING IS THAT RATHER THAN
7 MAKE A HASTY DECISION AT 2:30 IN THE MORNING, WE CONTINUED
8 IT TO 10:30 MONDAY MORNING TO GIVE THE PARTIES INVOLVED AN
9 OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN AND SEE IF THEY CAN COME UP WITH A
10 SOLUTION THAT WILL GIVE US A BIGGER COMFORT ZONE ON HOW
11 MUCH BUFFER SHOULD BE PROVIDED.
12 SO THAT IS THE SUBSTITUTE MOTION.
13 COUNCILMAN CRITES: DO I ASSUME, IN MAKING THAT, THAT
14 WHETHER THE PURCHASER OF THAT, AT FAIR MARKET VALUE, IS
15 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE OR --
16 COUNCILMAN WILSON: IF THEY CAN GET AN INTERESTED
17 PARTY, BLM, OR FISH AND GAME OR WHATEVER, TO COME UP WITH
18 THE MONEY FOR THEM, THAT'S FINE.
19 COUNCILMAN CRITES: OR SOME OF OUR CITY EMPLOYEES,
20 OUT OF THEIR LARGE SALARIES OR WHOEVER?
21 COUNCILMAN WILSON: WELL, THE 3,000 PEOPLE MAYBE WANT
22 TO KICK IN SOME MONEY TO BUY A BIGGER ZONE.
23 MAYOR SNYDER: WHEN DID YOU WANT TO RECONVENE THIS
24 MEETING?
25 COUNCILMAN WILSON: 10:30 MONDAY MORNING. THAT WOULD
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT 'A'
308
18 1 GIVE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PARTIES TO MEET TOMORROW, AS
2 SUGGESTED BY MR. ROBERTS, AND AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AN EARLY
3 MORNING MEETING MONDAY, IF THEY NEED IT, TO WRAP UP WITH
4 OTHER BOARD MEMBERS THE DETAILS, AND THEN APPEAR BEFORE US
5 AT 10:30.
6 COUNCILMAN CRITES: SO SECONDED.
7 MAYOR SNYDER: WELL, I'M SORRY, BUT WE HAVE --
8 COUNCILMAN CRITES: OH, I'M SORRY. EXCUSE ME. WE
9 HAVE A MOTION ON THE FLOOR. MY APOLOGIES.
10 MAYOR SNYDER: IT WAS SECONDED. WE'LL HAVE TO TAKE
11 CARE OF THAT MOTION FIRST, BEFORE WE CAN --
12 COUNCILMAN WILSON: THE SUBSTITUTE MOTION TAKES --
13 I'LL ASK THE PARLIAMENTARIAN -- TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER THE
14 MOTION ON THE FLOOR, IF IT'S SECONDED, AND PUT TO A VOTE;
15 RIGHT? AND THEN IF IT PASSES, THE OTHER MOTION IS MOOT;
16 BUT IF IT FAILS, THE OTHER MOTION IS ON THE FLOOR.
17 COUNCILMAN CRITES: TRADITIONALLY, THE THING ONE DOES
18 IN ASKING THAT IS TO FIRST ASK THE MAKER OF THE PRIMARY
19 MOTION WHETHER OR NOT THAT HE OR SHE WILL WITHDRAW THE
20 PRIMARY MOTION TO ALLOW A VOTE ON THE SUBSTITUTE MOTION
21 FIRST.
22 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: NO, THAT'S NOT RIGHT.
23 HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO AMEND MY -- MAKE A MOTION
24 TO AMEND MY MOTION. AND IF YOU SECOND IT, THEN YOU MUST
25 VOTE ON THAT. BUT THAT'S NOT IN ROBERT'S RULES OF ORDER
_9
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19 1 TO ASK ME TO --
2 COUNCILMAN CRITES: HE MAY ASK YOU. I'M JUST SAYING
3 THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE. AND ON TOP, I'M NOT SURE
4 FROM ROBERT'S, DICK, WHETHER OR NOT ROY'S --
5 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: WELL, HE CAN MAKE A MOTION AND
6 YOU CAN SECOND IT AND IT CAN BE VOTED ON. IT DOESN'T HAVE
7 TO EVEN FOOL WITH MY MOTION. HE CAN AMEND MY MOTION THE
8 WAY HE WANTS TO.
9 BUT, NEVERTHELESS, I'D LIKE TO -- AM I RIGHT?
10 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: YOU KNOW WHAT? I HAVE NO
11 IDEA. I JUST DON'T KNOW.
12 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: I'M SURE I'M RIGHT.
13 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: OKAY.
14 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: I HAVE A BOOK AT HOME THAT SAYS
15 THAT, ANYWAY. YOU KNOW, I JUST --
16 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: WELL, WE'VE GOT --
17 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: YOU'RE A PROFESSOR, AND I
18 BOW --
19 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: WE HAVE A MOTION WITH A
20 SECOND.
21 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: BUT I'M JUST A COUNTRY BOY, BUT
22 I HAVE READ THE BOOK.
23 COUNCILMAN CRITES: YOU'RE NOT GOING TO OUT -COUNTRY
24 BOY ON ME, SON.
25 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I BELIEVE -- I'LL SETTLE THIS. I
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT 'A'
310
19 1 BELIEVE A SUBSTITUTE MOTION TAKES PRECEDENT FOR A VOTE.
2 AND THEN, IF IT FAILS, THE -- MR. KELLY'S MOTION IS STILL
3 ON THE FLOOR.
4 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: BUT YOU'RE JUST AMENDING MY
5 MOTION, THAT'S ALL.
6 I WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON THE AMENDMENT TO MY
7 MOTION.
8 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: ALL RIGHT. DO WE HAVE A
9 SECOND TO THE AMENDMENT? DO WE HAVE A SECOND?
10 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THE SUBSTITUTE SECOND IS HERE.
11 MAYOR SNYDER: WE STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK TO
12 THIS, AND MR. KELLY HAS REQUESTED THE RIGHT TO SPEAK TO
13 THIS MATTER.
14 MAYOR PRO TEM KELLY: WELL, WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM
15 WITH IS ALTA MIRA HAS MADE A PROPOSAL TO TRY TO SOLVE THE
16 DIFFERENCES OF OPINION, AND HE HAS MADE AN OFFER TO GIVE
17 UP A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF HIS PROPERTY TO, FOR ALL INTENTS
18 AND PURPOSES, OPEN SPACE AND BUFFER.
19 AND THEN, WHILE I AGREE WITH WHAT COUNCILMAN
20 WILSON IS ATTEMPTING, I HAVE TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING WHY ANY
21 ADDITIONAL BUFFER WOULD -- THAT WE WOULD EXPECT THE
22 BIGHORN TO PURCHASE, WHICH THAT DIFFERENCE WOULD PROBABLY
23 HAVE A GREAT EFFECT ON THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT, WHY WOULD WE
24 MAKE THAT A CONDITION AND NOT HAVE THE CONDITION APPLY TO
25 ALL THE PROPERTY THAT THE ALTA MIRA PROJECT HAS WITHIN THE
MINUTES
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EXHIBIT 'A'
311
19 1 BUFFER?
2 COUNCILMAN WILSON: IF I CAN RESPOND TO THAT, I
3 BELIEVE THAT THE DEVELOPER HAS AN OBLIGATION TO MITIGATE
4 ITS IMPACTS ON AN EXISTING DEVELOPMENT SUCH AS THE BIGHORN
5 INSTITUTE. AND THEY HAVE MADE THAT MITIGATION OFFER IN
6 CONJUNCTION WITH THE MINIMUM RECOMMENDATION OF THE FISH
7 AND GAME -- DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME.
8 HOWEVER, WE HAVE A DISPUTE. THE BIGHORN
9 INSTITUTE SAYS THAT IS NOT ENOUGH. I THINK THAT WE HAVE,
10 WITH THE 400-YARD BUFFER, PUT A REASONABLE MITIGATING
11 CONDITION ON THE DEVELOPER. HOWEVER, IF ADDITIONAL
12 YARDAGE IS NEEDED -- AND THEY'RE THE EXPERTS, I'M NOT, ON
13 HOW MUCH IS NEEDED -- THEN I THINK THEY SHOULD PURCHASE
14 IT.
15 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: I'M NOT SURE -- IF I COULD
16 ADD, I'M NOT SURE THAT WE CAN MAKE THEM DO THAT, AND I
17 DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE CAN MAKE THE DEVELOPER WORK
18 SOMETHING OUT WHERE THEY WOULD ACTUALLY BUY IT. IF THEY
19 CAN AGREE, SO BE IT. BUT IF THEY DON'T AGREE, THEN I
20 DON'T THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE CAN COMPEL.
21 AND LET ME JUST ADD ANOTHER THING, SORT OF A
22 JURY INSTRUCTION TO YOU, THAT MIGHT HELP YOU. AND THAT IS
23 THAT THERE IS A CALIFORNIA CASE LAW THAT STATES THAT A
24 COURT, WHEN A CITY COUNCIL OR OTHER GOVERNING BODY IS IN
25 THIS KIND OF A DILEMMA, WHERE YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF EXPERT
NUN :TM
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19 1 OPINIONS FROM WHICH TO CHOOSE, THE COURTS GIVE YOU DUE
2 DEFERENCE ONCE -- IF YOU MAKE THAT DECISION. THEY
3 UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE DECISIONS ARE DIFFICULT.
4 ONCE YOU MAKE THOSE DECISIONS, THE COURT
5 GENERALLY IS GOING TO SAY, "WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET
6 INVOLVED IN REDOING THE WORK THAT YOU DID."
7 ALL RIGHT. SO IF THERE IS ONE BIOLOGIST THAT
8 SAYS FIVE FEET, ANOTHER ONE THAT SAYS TEN, ANOTHER ONE
9 THAT SAYS 15, IF THE COUNCIL MAKES A CHOICE AND IT IS
10 RATIONAL -- AND I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYTHING TONIGHT THAT
11 REALLY ISN'T RATIONAL -- THE COURT'S GOING TO BACK YOU UP.
12 I JUST WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT.
13 MAYOR SNYDER: I THINK I'D LIKE -- THE FLOOR IS STILL
14 OPEN.
15 ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DISCUSSED IS IF
16 INDEED WE COULD COME TO AN AGREEMENT THIS EVENING -- THIS
17 MORNING, THE DEVELOPER HAS ASSURED ME THAT ANY MEETINGS
18 THAT WILL BE HELD SUBSEQUENT TO OUR AGREEMENT AND IF THERE
19 WAS A WAY TO WORK OUT A BETTER SOLUTION, THAT THEY WOULD
20 SIT DOWN WITH THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE AND, EVEN THOUGH WE
21 HAVE AGREED TO 400 OR -- IF THERE WAS ANOTHER NUMBER THAT
22 COULD BE REASONABLY APPROACHED OR ANY OTHER THING THAT HE
23 CAN DO TO ASSURE THE CONTINUANCE OF THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE,
24 HE WOULD DO.
25 NOW -- BUT IF WE DON'T COME TO SOME KIND OF
?0
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313
20 1 AGREEMENT, I UNFORTUNATELY HAVE TO SAY THAT WE'VE BEEN
2 TRYING TO FORCE SOME KIND OF AN AGREEMENT FOR A MONTH. WE
3 HAVE HAD ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT AT ALL FROM THE BIGHORN
4 INSTITUTE, BUT WE HAVE HAD MOVEMENT FROM THE DEVELOPER.
5 UNLESS WE COME UP TO SOMEONE SAYING THAT WE'RE
6 GOING TO GO AHEAD WITH THIS THING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, I
7 DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET SOME
8 ADDITIONAL MITIGATION OR AGREEMENT GOING. I THINK WE NEED
9 TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO -- TO VOTE ON THIS. WE'RE GOING
10 TO -- TO ACCEPT A DECISION.
11 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I UNDERSTAND THAT. AND,
12 BASICALLY, WHAT I'M SAYING IS, LET'S GIVE THEM A COUPLE OF
13 DAYS TO WORK ON THE ISSUE FOR THIS PURPOSE. I WANT TO SEE
14 IF THE BIGHORN SHEEP INSTITUTE IS WILLING TO PUT ITS MONEY
15 WHERE ITS MOUTH IS.
16 MAYOR SNYDER: WELL, WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET THEM
17 TO MOVE FOR A MONTH.
18 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I THINK WE NEED A CLEAR
19 INDICATION OF WHERE WE'RE GOING.
20 COUNCILMAN CRITES: I WAS GOING TO SAY, I WOULD
21 SUSPECT THAT YOUR PERCEPTION DOES NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT
22 MY PERCEPTION OF WHAT'S REASONABLE.
23 MAYOR SNYDER: THAT'S WHY WE HAVE FIVE PEOPLE ON THIS
24 COUNCIL.
25 COUNCILMAN CRITES: THAT'S MY POINT.
MINUTES
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314
20 1 MAYOR SNYDER: AND THAT'S WHY I AM EXPRESSING MY
2 OPINION, AND I'M EXPRESSING IT AS STRONGLY AS I KNOW HOW.
3 I HAVE NEVER WORKED SO HARD IN MY LIFE AS I
4 HAVE IN THE LAST MONTH TO COME TO A COMPROMISE ON THIS
5 SITUATION AND COME TO AN EQUITABLE AGREEMENT OF HOW TO
6 SOLVE THIS PROBLEM SO WE DON'T POLARIZE THIS CITY AND
7 CONTINUE TO HAVE THESE THINGS THAT WE'VE HAVE HAD TO
8 DATE -- UP TILL TODAY, OF ARTICLES IN THE PAPER, TABLES AT
9 THE MARKET SAYING, "SAVE THE SHEEP." PEOPLE ARE SIGNING
10 PETITIONS, AND I'M GETTING PHONE CALLS, "WE DIDN'T EVEN
11 KNOW WHAT WE WERE SIGNING."
12 I THINK WE NEED TO SETTLE THIS MATTER. I THINK
13 WE NEED TO GET THIS THING BEHIND US. I THINK WE NEED TO
14 BE FAIR, WE NEED TO BE EQUITABLE, AND WE HAVE TO FIND SOME
15 COMPROMISE THAT MAKES SENSE.
16 AND I'M MORE THAN WILLING FOR SOME ADDITIONAL
17 DISCUSSIONS, BUT I THINK THAT UNLESS THERE'S SOME TEETH IN
18 THESE ADDITIONAL DISCUSSIONS, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'RE
19 GOING TO GO VERY FAR.
20 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.)
21 MAYOR SNYDER: WE HAVE A CONFLICT OF -- WE HAVE A
22 MOTION SUBMITTED AND SECONDED, AND NOW WE HAVE -- I
23 ASSUME.
24 AND NOW YOU'VE CREATED AN ALTERNATIVE; IS THAT
25 RIGHT?
MINUTES
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20 1 COUNCILMAN WILSON: MY SUBSTITUTE MOTION IS ON THE
2 FLOOR FOR A VOTE FIRST. AND IF IT FAILS, THEN MR. KELLY'S
3 MOTION IS UP FOR A VOTE.
4 MAYOR SNYDER: WOULD YOU CARE TO RESTATE YOUR MOTION?
5 COUNCILMAN WILSON: MY MOTION RESTATED, PARAPHRASED,
6 WHATEVER I SAID WAS THAT WE CONTINUE THIS DELIBERATION TO
7 10:30 MONDAY MORNING WITH A CLEAR DIRECTION TO BOTH SIDES
8 THAT, ONE, WE FEEL THAT A 400-YARD BUFFER GIVEN BY THE
9 DEVELOPER IS A REASONABLE MITIGATION MEASURE FROM THE
10 STANDPOINT OF THE DEVELOPER; HOWEVER, IF ADDITIONAL
11 YARDAGE IS NEEDED, THAT THE DEVELOPER AGREE TO WORK WITH
12 THE BIGHORN INSTITUTE TO SELL THEM THE NECESSARY PROPERTY.
13 MAYOR SNYDER: WOULD YOU ACCEPT A MODIFICATION TO
14 THAT, THAT IF INDEED -- YOU OBVIOUSLY FEEL STRONGLY THAT
15 YOU HAVE THREE VOTES.
16 COUNCILMAN WILSON: I DON'T KNOW IF I HAVE THREE
17 VOTES.
18 MAYOR SNYDER: IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS YOU HAVE THREE
19 VOTES, AND YOU KNOW IT.
20 I THINK THAT A MODIFICATION TO THAT, THAT IF
21 A -- IF ANY OTHER SOLUTION CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED --
22 COUNCILMAN WILSON: IF BOTH SIDES WALK IN WITH A
23 SOLUTION, HAND IN HAND, AND SAY, "THIS IS WHAT WE WANT YOU
24 TO APPROVE," I AM SURE THAT THEY WOULD PROBABLY HAVE FIVE
25 VOTES.
MINUTES
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316
20 1 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: DO THAT TONIGHT. THEY'RE BOTH
2 HERE TONIGHT. START OVER.
3 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: MR. MAYOR. MR. MAYOR,
4 MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL.
5 THERE'S SOMETHING THAT I WOULD LIKE TO ADD TO
6 STAFF. THERE'S BEEN A NUMBER OF CONDITIONS -- TWO MINOR
7 CONDITIONS THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE AS PART OF YOUR
8 RESOLUTION. MONDAY WE CAN HAVE THAT -- THOSE -- THE
9 WORDING OF THOSE THINGS BEFORE YOU ALSO.
10 SO WHAT WE WOULD RECOMMEND, IF YOU HAVE THAT,
11 IF YOU CONTINUE THIS TILL MONDAY -- IT'S NOW A QUARTER TO
12 3:00. IF WE CONTINUE THIS, WE WILL -- YOU WILL HAVE,
13 THEN, THE RESOLUTION AS YOU WANT TO SEE IT MONDAY, AND WE
14 DON'T HAVE TO BE WORRYING IF THE WORDING IS GOING TO BE
15 JUST SUCH.
16 AND TALKING TO THE CITY ATTORNEY, WE WOULD
17 RECOMMEND THAT YOU CONTINUE THIS PORTION OF THE MEETING
18 UNTIL 10:30 MONDAY AND THAT WE RECONVENE AT 10 O'CLOCK
19 MONDAY FOR A CLOSED SESSION TO DEAL WITH POTENTIAL
20 LITIGATION MATTERS.
21 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.)
22 MAYOR SNYDER: WE HAVE A MOTION ON THE FLOOR TO
23 CONTINUE THIS MATTER TILL 10:30 TOMORROW MORNING --
24 COUNCILMAN CRITES: MONDAY.
25 MAYOR SNYDER: I'M SORRY. MONDAY MORNING, IN THE
MINT) TES
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317
20 1 HOPES THAT BOTH THE DEVELOPER AND THE BIGHORN SHEEP
2 INSTITUTE WILL GET TOGETHER AND SEE IF THERE'S ANY FURTHER
3 NEGOTIATIONS THAT THEY CAN COME UP WITH THAT WILL BRING
4 THIS MATTER TO A CLOSE.
5 IS THAT MORE OR LESS THE CONTENT OF YOUR
6 MOTION? DID YOU GET THAT? DO YOU CONCUR WITH WHAT I
7 JUST SAID?
8 COUNCILMAN WILSON: YES.
9 MAYOR SNYDER: THERE IS A MOTION ON THE FLOOR, AND I
10 BELIEVE THERE WAS A SECOND.
11 WOULD YOU ALL PLEASE VOTE.
12 CITY CLERK FRAZIER: COUNCILMAN WILSON, ARE YOU
13 VOTING?
14 COUNCILMAN WILSON: YES.
15 CITY CLERK FRAZIER: MOTION CARRIES BY UNANIMOUS
16 VOTE.
17 MAYOR SNYDER: WE ARE NOW -- I'LL HAVE A MOTION TO
18 CONTINUE THIS MATTER TILL 10:30 MONDAY MORNING.
19 PLANNING DIRECTOR DIAZ: MR. MAYOR.
20 CITY CLERK FRAZIER: MAYOR SNYDER.
21 PLANNIND DIRECTOR DIAZ: COULD WE ADJOURN THIS
22 MEETING TO 10 O'CLOCK MONDAY MORNING FOR EXECUTIVE
23 SESSION, CLOSED SESSION?
24 MAYOR SNYDER: THE TIME OF THE MEETING WILL BE
25 SET AT 10 O'CLOCK MONDAY MORNING, IN WHICH THE COUNCIL
MINUTES
ADJOURNED PALM DESEIIP ^TTy COUNCIL MEETING AUGUST 1, 1991
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318
1 WILL BE IN CLOSED SESSION. AND THE -- AND 10:30 WILL BE
2 THE REGULAR.
3 CITY ATTORNEY PHILLIPS: RIGHT.
4 (THIS HEARING BEFORE THE CITY COUNCIL WAS
5 RECESSED AT 2:50 A.M.)
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EXHIBIT ' A'
1 CERTIFICATE
2 OF
3 REPORTER
4
5
I, G. JOANNE BERGREN, CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER IN
6
AND FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, DO HEREBY CERTIFY:
7
THAT THE FOREGOING HEARING WAS TAKEN BEFORE ME AT
8
THE TIME AND PLACE THEREIN SET FORTH;
9
THAT THE HEARING WAS RECORDED STENOGRAPHICALLY BY ME
10
AND THEREAFTER TRANSCRIBED THROUGH COMPUTER -AIDED
11
TRANSCRIPTION, SAID TRANSCRIPT BEING A TRUE COPY OF MY
12
SHORTHAND NOTES THEREOF AND A TRUE RECORD OF THE HEARING.
13
14 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I HAVE SUBSCRIBED MY NAME THIS
15 DATE:
16
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18 G. JOANNE BERGREN, C.S.R.
CERTIFICATE NO. 6334
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