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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCultural Res. Prsvtn Cmte - 03/25/08 � ����� CITY OF PALM DESERT � � BUILDING & SAFETY DEPARTMENT , INTEROFFICE MEMORANDUM To: Rachelle Klassen, City Clerk ,yVµ,�� Ci�c�(,1,%U.r From: Suzan�ne Cicchini, Administrative Secretary Date: November 25, 2008 Subject: Submission of Verbatim Minutes Approved by the Cultural Resources Preservation Committee —formerly known as the Historic Preservation Committee, for the Meeting held on March 25, 2008. These minutes were prepared by Sharon Picciolo. Attached is a copy of March 25, 2008 Minutes of the Historic Preservation Committee approved as revised by the Cultural Resources Preservation Committee on November 25, 2008. Please include on the ne� City Council agenda. Thank you CITY COUNCIL ACTIOIv: Attachment APPROVED _ DFNIED REC�IiIE� ��i I c� ,_ 0'.�*'�I�R ���1�Q�TYE;: �:�°i'i' -�� �i�.�F s e �p((S�r'1�� �.l�..i�� �� �—p,��,/�c�-,,, Nt3ES o��`_. �-"=�( �r i�+ �s�.� ABSEN'�':��Ll� � AE3�T�IN: D�LC'_� VERIFIED F3Y• Original. or�.�Fil� wi.t C�ty Clerk's Office G:\BldgSfty\Suzanne Cicchini\Word Files\Cultural Resources Preservation Committee\Minutes 3-25-OS-2008\Memo-City Clerk-Minutes 11-25-0B.doc �--�-� CITY OF PALM DESERT � � HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE SPECIAL MEETING VERBATIM MINUTES March 25, 2008 Council Chambers Conference Room The normal narrative minutes have been superseded by the City Attorney's request for Verbatim Minutes. Verbatim Transcription of Minutes 3/25/08 Regular Meeting of the Historic Preservation Committee March 25, 2008 I. CALL TO ORDER, 10:35 a.m. Chair, Kim Housken: March 25, 2008, Historic Preservation Committee meeting. Sharon Picciolo: What time is it called to order? Kent Routh: 10:35 a.m. Five minutes late. II. ROLL CALL Kim Housken: Gayle do you want to start us off? Gale Broeker: Gale Broeker Vera Handley: Vera Handley Kim Housken: Kim Housken Jan Holmlund: Jan Holmlund Bob Pitchford: Bob Pitchford Kent Routh: Kent Routh Don Graybill: Don Graybill Sharon Picciolo: Sharon Picciolo (Recording Secretary) Russell Grance: Russell Grance Also present were: Carole Schaudt, Susan Marie Weber, Hal Rover, and Homer Croy, assistant City Manager, Development Services. Kim Housken: Before we get to oral communications just a couple of housekeeping notes it's time to file our form 700s once again. They are due a week from today, and you can turn them in with Rachelle, the City Clerk, and I believe they do have the old ones on file if anyone has questions or want to review their previous one. Also coming up is ethics training. On Friday, April 11th, there are finro sessions. You only need to attend one, either from 9:00 to 12:00 or from 1:00 to 4:00. That's here at City Hall in the G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 1 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Council Room. It also could be done on-line if you're not available to attend that meeting. I actually jotted down the website. Here it is: fppc.ca.gov and that one will actually give you a link to the on-line ethics training. The actual link itself was longer, so I'm giving you the shorter one. Jan Holmlund: Will that cover both the County and the City? Kim Housken: That is a good question. I don't know. I don't know. You could probably check it and see. Bob Pitchford: Kim, I have a question. What was the training you did in the session in City Hall? Kim Housken: If you did the one. Did you do the one about two months ago? Bob Pitchford: yeah. Kim Housken: Then you're set. You are okay. You are smart. It's the same thing. Exactly. It has to be done every two years. So, I think touch base with Russell, if you want to sign up for either of those sessions. And then, I know Russell, I was going to have you announce regarding you're our point of contact now, if people want to talk or have questions. Did you want to. I, I did not phone everybody. I wasn't sure on that. Russell Grance: Yeah, if you've got any questions at all from the Historical Preservations Committee, I'll be the point of contact for staff, and I gave her the contact information. I was hoping that she's share that with you. Kim Housken: Oh, I was just a little unsure regarding phoning. I know that, we'll probably find out at the ethics training. I wasn't sure with regards to the Brown act if I could phone every number. I wasn't sure. So I just, I mentioned it to Gale, who I did speak to but other than that, I wasn't comfortable just calling everybody. But, I could certainly forward that e-mail to everybody. Don Graybill: I have a question on that meeting we are supposed to attend for ethics. I tried it on-line and completed the first part. It was at night and I turned it off, and went back to try to continue on the test and it wouldn't let me do that. Then Russell, let me know this morning that you have to do it in one sitting. Kim Housken: Oh. Okay. Don Graybill: Because it won't even let you access what you. Kim Housken: You can't store or save what you've done. Oh. Don Graybill: And I'm not even sure what I'm going to do now, because I'm tied up all day on Friday, the 11th at the Living Desert. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 2 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Kim Housken: It's a bad day for me too. Don Graybill: Yeah. What happens if you can't make that meeting? Russell Grance: You just need to contact Rachelle. Don Graybill: Okay. Kim Housken: Well, thank you for that. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I was going to try to do it on-line. Jan Holmlund: How long is it? Don Graybill: I've done it twice, and if you don't have the time devoted it won't save it for you. Kim Housken: Really? Jan Holmlund: How long? Don Graybill: It'll take; you better spend at least two or three hours. It goes by sections apparently and I just finished the first section, and, thaYs it. Kim Housken: Okay, wow. Okay, that's good to know. So, if you are going to attempt it, dedicate a lot of time. Also, just, for the record, I'll give you all an update on the council meeting. I know a few of you were in attendance at the council meeting on March 13tn of 08. What happened was, besides the version of the ordinance that we developed with LSA, also the staff version of the ordinance both went to council. I think council is not relishing the thought of plodding through two full, long ordinances, and they are recommending that it be reviewed back to a study session with several council members, several members of the committee. I believe they mentioned having a realtor or two and then also, perhaps, concerned residents sit in on this sub-committee meeting. Is there an update on that, Russell? Russell Grance: No. We are still developing that; that group. Kim Housken: So, that's kind of the status of what happened. No decision was made on either ordinance, and they feel they need more information to really make an...evaluate them. Lastly, we don't, you may have noticed on our agenda. I did not set the agenda, and normally we do have places for committee member comments or updates on sub-committees and so on, because, as I've said before, we are more than just this ordinance, we've done many other things. Vera Handley: Yes ma'am. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 3 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Kim Housken: I'm not sure, Russell, if anyone had any input they wanted to give at this meeting, what would you recommend? When would be the time? Russell Grance: Well, if you weren't present last meeting. Our marching orders for myself and this committee, is our priority is the ordinance. So, this will probably be our last meeting until we develop an ordinance. So, that's the only reason we are meeting today. It is election of officers. Kim Housken: Um hum. Russell Grance: So, until we get an ordinance developed there will be no further workshops or meetings. Jan Holmlund: Could I ask about who develops the agenda? Russell Grance: Staff develops the agenda. Jan Holmlund: Under the ordinance that we are working under currently, and under what the city council assigned us to, I understood that we develop our own agenda and set the date for that and then report back to the city council. Russell Grance: Well, from this point forward, staff will set the agenda, just like staff sets the council's agenda, planning commission agenda, or all committees or commissions, staff sets the agenda. I don't know what has happened in the past, but that's the direction I was given, and the procedure to follow. Jan Holmlund: Who gives that? Russell Grance: City clerk. Jan Holmlund: City clerk gave you that? And, who would we complain to then? Russell Grance: I guess you could complain to either the city clerk, or city council. Jan Holmlund: Okay and, the other thing is, do you develop this alone, or does someone have some input other than you, into the agenda? Russell Grance: The agenda will be set by staff, whoever that may be. It might be me; it might be whoever I assign it to. Jan Holmlund: So we would have no place to take our comments, no place to suggest anything on the agenda because we wouldn't even know who to take it to? Russell Grance: No you would take, if you wanted to put something on the agenda in the future, you would let me know and we would put that in the agenda. The staff makes the agenda. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 4 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Jan Holmlund: Alright, but you don't know who that might be, who might make the agenda? Russell Grance: Not at this time. Staff, right now there's been a change of assignments. That's why we have a temporary person here right now. Jan Holmlund: The other question I have about this whole agenda business is who invites the attorney? The City Attorney to the meetings? Russell Grance: The City Attorney invites himself, I assume. Jan Holmlund: Do you know who invited him to the last meeting he attended on the 29tn� Russell Grance: Well, it was recommended, I think from people here wanting to get insight from the city attorney and the people from planning. Jan Holmlund: Well, we recommend that the ordinance be sent on, but we didn't invite him. I wondered how you present, how you ask him to appear at a meeting. Russell Grance: It was requested, if I remember correctly that you wanted to have people there at the next meeting to answer your questions, and that was planning staff and the city attorney. ThaYs why they were present. Jan Holmlund: Oh, I was under the impression that what we had planned was a workshop. Russell Grance: And we had that workshop. We had that luncheon. Jan Holmlund: Right, but they didn't come to that. Yes. No prior to that. The time before. So, if we would like the city attorney to appear, we would ask you to ask the city attorney? Russell Grance: Correct, if you need to ask some specific questions. Either I could do that for you and get a response or he could be present, depending on his calendar. Jan Holmlund: I see. Okay, that answers my questions. Kim Housken: And, I hear what you just said, Russell, but I did actually request to you that we include our regular sub-committee places on the agenda, but you told me that that would not be entertained, but in the future will we return to the typical..because again I really feel like we've been really waylaid by this ordinance and yet we have many other areas that we're pursuing, developing and so on, so I just think it's unfortunate that everything would be put on hold. I mean, we feel that we've been put on hold for a year and a half, so certainly. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 5 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Russell Grance: All I can speak for is I would like to stay with the agenda today. Our primary goal is to move forward with the election of officers, and an ordinance that we all can live with, and right now, having any other dialog I think, is just going to waste people's time. I really want to stick to this agenda so we can now get ready for the new sub-committee that gets together so that we can develop an ordinance. I've been directed by; you were at the council meeting. That is our marching orders. That's my marching orders. So, to do anything else, whether it be in this venue, or doing anything with the listed properties, is really, for lack of a better word, needs to be put on hold, until this ordinance is developed. Kim Housken: Okay, and again, just even with regards to updating Jan attend the Rancho Mirage Historic Preservation, so typically that would be something we could be updated on. Russell Grance: And we could do that at a future meeting. Kim Housken: Right, okay, so I just want to be sure in the future we'll kinda return back to all being in the loop because I feel like we've had very little communication, lately, and it's getting a little frustrating. Russell Grance: I understand What I'm trying to do is to rein in all back in and get a firm direction of where we need to go, and unless we can do that it's just going to continue spinning our wheels, so that's why we got council involved because we were on different directions and we needed that direction from them and they've given us that direction and that's where I want to focus. Kim Housken: Okay. Gale Broeker: By law we'll have to have a meeting by the end of June. Russell Grance: No. We don't. Gale Broeker: Oh, yes. It says quarterly. Russell Grance: Well, that's a matter of interpretation, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Jan Holmlund: Is it possible to get what the council wants in written form because all we have are interpretations? Everything seems to be a matter of interpretation to this department, and I would like to have some factual information in front of ine. What the council wants us to do? What we are told that you must do, so that I know what direction we are going in and why, and it's factual, not interpreted. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 6 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Russell Grance: Well, if you were at the last council meeting, then they gave us direction. We are going to have a sub-committee with specified members, that's our direction. Jan Holmlund: I was but they didn't say anything about our regular meetings. Nothing. Russell Grance: That is my direction, that I've been given. Is that we don't need to have meetings, because there is nothing to discuss until we have an ordinance to work from. Jan Holmlund: Well, who gave you that idea? We have lots of things to work on. Russell Grance: Well, it's a matter of a difference of opinion again, so we're probably going to agree to disagree. Gale Broeker: The city council told us to proceed with our top ten, like, a year ago. Top ten listing, and that's been stalled. Russell Grance: We've been given new direction. At the last council meeting we were given very clear direction on where we need to go. Gale Broeker: So don't do anything else? Russell Grance: We need to get an ordinance done before we move forward with any kind of list, or. Gale Broeker: You keep saying getting an ordinance done. We have an ordinance. IYs been on the books for 29 years. Russell Grance: I'm not here to argue with you. We have direction from city council. I don't want to get this as a confrontational, and that's just what it's turning into. We need to stick to the agenda and move forward with a sub-committee. That's what council has d irected. Jan Holmlund: I think you need to go to council and get written direction from them, what they want us to do because I'm not secure in where I am in this today, and I'd like to know that I'm following legal procedure. So, well, would you go to the city clerk and ask her for written procedures for this committee? From the council? Kim Housken: Well, perhaps some of that will come out in the study session. Jan Holmlund: It might, but will it come out in written form? Kim Housken? I don't know. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 7 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Jan Holmlund: Okay. III. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS: Kim Housken: Moving into oral communications, if we have anyone wishing to discuss anything not on the agenda now is the time to do so. Jan Holmlund: The minutes of the meeting of. Kim Housken: We are on Oral communication, so nobody has any comments? IV. CONSENT CALENDAR Kim Housken: Okay, moving onto the consent calendar, which is the minutes of the February 15th, 2008 meeting. Before we launch into this, as you all realize, they were verbatim minutes, which were very long to read and very long to write, I'm sure. This was the special meeting with the planning department. Staff is recommending we approve the minutes as presented, I personally believe I understand what verbatim minutes are, and I don't think these are truly reflective of what verbatim minutes are, or meant to be, and I would recommend that any comment, whether it is someone coughing, someone laughing, someone sighing, or any other comment that's in parenthesis or brackets, would be removed from the minutes. Jan Holmlund: Could I make a comment? We, I have read through this three times, now. Some sentences you can make sense out of if you read the sentence, but the verbiage that it's written doesn't make it sensible. ThaYs a problem throughout the entire document. And there are misspellings; my name is misspelled in one place. There are other letters that have been left out of words, but the bottom line for this particular verbatim minutes is that while I can remember some sentences and some issues, I don't remember them verbatim. So, my recommendation on these minutes, is that these be sent to the city attorney, who has the tape, as I understand it, of that meeting, and he approve these before they come back to us, that they are verbatim, because I don't believe that anyone at this meeting can remember these minutes verbatim. And, if they can, I would welcome their input, but I have to say after reading this three times, I can go back and not quote a sentence from a paragraph that Hal Rover, stated from, or Karen Prinzmetal, stated from, so, and my advice, I don't see how we can approve this document and I think the only person who can approve this document would be the city attorney who has the tape of that meeting, and thaYs what I would recommend. I move "that this go to the City Attorney for approval and, with your notices about the problem with not being verbatim". Kim Housken: So, Russell, what is the typical protocol for verbatim minutes? Because Jan does bring up a good point, and that, I know, obviously there were issues with the recordings, and although, I know, I can remember certain things that I don't see in here. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 8 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 If it wasn't reflected on the tapes, then I suppose it wouldn't be reflected in the verbatim minutes, if it was, you couldn't understand it. If it was unclear. Russell Grance: That is correct. � Kim Housken: So, yeah, how are we to sit there and say this is exactly what was said, since this is, it is challenging? Russell Grance: Well, Suzanne did the best she could with the recording that we had, and where it was inaudible, that's what she put. Where there was areas where she tried to expound on what was said because it may have been inaudible, it was denoted that way. So, as I understand it, talking to the City Clerk, you have three options with these minutes. You either approve, deny or abstain. Basically. Gale Broeker: We can't accept, except approved? Russell Grance: Approve, deny or abstain, on voting for these, on the minutes. Gale Broeker: Because there's 227 inaudible on there. That makes more holes in it, more gaps in the Russell Grance: Again, based upon the equipment we had that's all we can Gale Broeker: I'm sorry, you interrupted. We have more holes in there, there's so many holes you can't make sense of anything. And you can't approve something that has a sentence: "If you could beeps with the inaudible with words" you'd be sounding like some porn tape, or something. Beep, beep, beep. So, how can we approve something that isn't there? Russell Grance: Then you can deny, or abstain. Disapprove. We are working with the best equipment we had at the time, and she tried to expound on areas where it wasn't audible, the best she could. We have what we have. Either you deny, approve or abstain. ThaYs our options. Gale Broeker: I'm thinking they should be on record. Russell Grance: The tapes are on record. The city attorney has them. Gale Broeker: So we don't need a paper copy on record. We don't need to accept it, or whatever. Russell Grance: You can deny accepting these written ones, if you'd like, and we can keep the recordings. Jan Holmlund: Well, I would like a written report, but I think, I think under those conditions, my motion should be corrected to reflect what Russell said. We have three G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 9 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 options, and that we accept these only with the provision that they go back to the city council to be taken directly from his tapes, and approved by him as absolutely verbatim, before they come back to us, because we don't know. We don't have those tapes. We have no idea what is correct here. And I don't think anyone is faulting Suzanne for all of her effort, that she made. But clearly, she too, did not know how to write verbatim minutes because she put a lot of her own information in there. But still, it was a lot of work and a lot of effort, and they're not clear. They're just not clear enough to accept. So, I think that we accept them provisionally, with the provision, and I'll make this motion, "That these minutes be accepted provisionally, with the provision that they go back to the city attorney for his certification, that they are verbatim minutes from the tapes". Kim Housken: Russell, if that's something that could be done, or Russell Grance: I don't know if we can even entertain that request. Like I said, the city clerk gave me three options, and that's what we have before us. I don't know if the city attorney is going to spend his staff's time to go over those tapes and do what you're requesting. Unless there's litigation I don't think that's something that the city is going to entertain. Jan Holmlund: Well, we can't, there is no way we can say, "We don't want to say these are bad tapes". Clearly, your department worked hard on them, and maybe somebody else. I don't know who all worked on this, but, whatever the case is, it's absolutely impossible to, for us to do anything other than accept it and expect that we have some certification that this is correct, because we don't have access to those original tapes. I mean, if you wanted to make a copy of the tapes and give it to the sub-committee, we have met for well over a hundred hours just looking at the last draft of the last document that they sent to us of the ordinance. We could probably spend another hundred hours going over this. But we don't have those tapes. Kim Housken: So, I understand what Russell is saying regarding approve, deny, abstain. And I understand what Jan is saying in that it is very difficult for me to recall everything that was said. Additionally, it would appear, some things are in brackets, some things are in parenthesis and I was trying to understand; which was which. It appeared that some of the things were taken off of notes. I know Suzanne, kind of mentions her notes. So, well perhaps she got more input from reading what she had written in places where the tape was inaudible. In which case, it necessarily isn't verbatim, either. So, it's kind of this odd mish-mash of two different methods of doing minutes, and it is challenging. Russell Grance: Well, we can go back to doing just narrative minutes. But when she did that, she could hardly get those approved, because, "Oh add this, add that", so we went to trying to do verbatim, and that's where we're at. That's why we're doing everything verbatim now. Don Graybill: Oh man G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 10 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Jan Holmlund: That is not true. Russell Grance: She's been asked several times by individuals, to modify minutes to include this, exclude that. She spends a lot of time trying to develop a set of minutes for this group. And, she has other duties. Kim Housken: Absolutely. Russell Grance: So, what we've left with is to try and do verbatim, and that would be with the equipment we had and the best we could possibly do. Again, we can either accept, deny or abstain, and move forward, because I don't know what we are going to get out of arguing what was said, what wasn't said. Our marching orders from council is to move forward with an ordinance. We are getting hung up on verbatim minutes of a meeting that's already happened. What is the benefit from that? Now, I'm asking, what is the benefit? What are we out to benefit from this? Kim Housken: I think, I don't know so much that we're debating what was said or wasn't said. I think we're just concerned that if we can't clarify what it was, then, I don't know, some of us might be uncomfortable on approving those. Russell Grance: Then I would say, don't approve them. That would be my recommendation, but it's up to you. Jan Holmlund: Excuse me; there is a motion on the table. And, the motion was that we approve this with the provision that they go to the city attorney for certification. Kim Housken: It was my understanding from what Russell said was, he wasn't sure that was something that could be done. Russell Grance: That's probably not going to be entertained by the City Attorney. Jan Holmlund: The committee can do that and then if he can't get it through the City Clerk, he'll have to let us know at our next meeting. Russell Grance: Like I said, the City Clerk has informed me that I have three options. Approve as written, abstain or deny. I'm not going to entertain anything else. At this point, because of the way those minutes were drafted, we did the best we could, verbatim. Kim Housken: And again, I'm comfortable with verbatim minutes. I'm uncomfortable with commentary that is being inserted. If you were to have me question, or, you know, be commenting on this you'd be receiving a different viewpoint, as well. Just to illustrate that, at the end of the meeting, which, again, had its' moments of tenseness, I would say, Bob Pitchford, who had sat quietly throughout the meeting. Someone had asked him about the trip to Santa Barbara that he had taken, and, very light heartedly, Bob G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 11 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 said, "Perhaps he shouldn't have been looking at plans because he didn't have the property owner's consent. You know, referring back to the meeting where we discussed kind of how ridiculous it is to acquire a property owner's consent to look at a house. So, I believe it was very clear at the time, he was joking when that was stated. Unfortunately, that part was not in the minutes, and then suddenly his comment is misconstrued, when it was very clear that he was joking about this, and trying to lighten up this meeting. So, that is why I am concerned about editorializing this in the minutes. That it depicts one person's viewpoint of how the meeting went. So, I don't believe that's inappropriate. I don't think I've seen council verbatim minutes that don't include, you know, the recording secretary's comments on who said what, and what their impression was when they turned and noticing people walking in and out of the room. So, I just think it's totally inappropriate. So, if you're telling me that, you're telling me we cannot amend these minutes in any way? Is that what you're saying? These cannot be amended? You're telling me we can approve them, we can deny them, or we can abstain? Russell Grance: That's correct. Because we're not going to spend staff's time to go back, I mean she spent more than a week just working on this. And with the electronic equipment we had, it was the best she could do. When she put her own comments in there, they were duly noted that way, as she would if they were narrative, taken off minutes, whether we were doing verbatim or by notes, it's her recollection of what was transpired. Kim Housken: Right, but that's Kent Routh: But the verbatim minutes were done, I'm sorry, Kim, I didn't mean to interrupt. The verbatim minutes were done at the request of the city attorney? Russell Grance: That is correct. Kent Routh: So, I liked them better when they were narrative. Russell Grance: I agree. Kent Routh: And it's so much easier to, and then, we have never had, hitherto, problems with making slight changes when somebody's name was misspelled. What I'd like to move is that we go back to narrative minutes and never do this verbatim stuff. It makes we sound like clumsy. I mean, "Um" and so forth. I don't want to hear "Um" and read, "Um" in minutes, and things like that. That isn't fair to us or to the person recording it. Jan Holmlund: One thing I cannot understand is why we're having so much trouble. This is a terrible thing to say, but when Mary was here, our minutes came out. We never had any problems with the microphones. We never had problems with the minutes. We never had complaints. There were very, very few corrections. Almost never did we have a correction. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 12 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Don Graybill: Mary Kim Housken: Well, and for some reason this is changed recently as well. Previously, all last year, Suzanne would e-mail me the minutes ahead of time and have me just review them. And sometimes I would catch things, or I would clarify things, or I would say, "Gee I remember that, but maybe you need to go into a little more detail". And it seemed to be a really good process, so that I had reviewed them prior to the meeting, and then she had made corrections that I had thought I had seen. They were presented to the whole group, and other people might still catch a few things, but I really don't think it was a cumbersome process, at all. It was like we said, maybe a few token things, for clarity, or maybe a misspelling of a name, but other than that, I don't feel that it was really a burden on Suzanne, prior to this, with the narrative minutes. What I heard you say earlier, though, is that suddenly we were requesting all these changes. Russell Grance: Well, just with the last minutes, with the verbatim minutes, there were requests to have things changed. So, we're at a point now, I think we just need to move forward and not dwell on the past, if you will. You have three options, like I said. Kent Routh: For a committee of historical past preservation, calling on the past is pretty much what we do. Russell Grance: Correct. But we are going to sit here and dialog on something that really we shouldn't be spending time on. We need to move forward on getting an ordinance, so that we can do what this committee needs to do. Kim Housken: I agree. Russell Grance: So, we need to look at the big picture, not focus on the "T's" and the I's", if you will. Kim Housken: I agree. Russell Grance: So, either abstain, deny or approve, and we move forward. Jan Holmlund: There is a motion on the table. Kim Housken: Well, just one last question to Russell. Because it wasn't explained to me, is there a reason why parts of this is in bold and parts of it is not in bold, and parts are italicized? Russell Grance: I think that's just the way she was trying to verbalize in there. She may have changed stuff. Kim Housken: Trying to verbalize? G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 13 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Russell Grance: Putting in her own comments, where it was either inaudible, or trying to expound on what was said. Kim Housken: Yeah, it seemed like, I mean, a sentence just smack in the middle of a paragraph that seemed very clearly odd, while suddenly things are in bold. Were those just trying to draw attention to things she thought were inflammatory, or something? Or, what was her reasoning? Russell Grance: I can't answer that for her. Kim Housken: She was the one who strictly did the minutes? Russell Grance: Yes. Kim Housken: Well we have a motion to send it to the city attorney Jan Holmlund: We can have two motions. Don Graybill: Have we talked about the alternatives? I mean, what is in the repercussions of an approval, and the repercussions of abstaining from voting? What results from this? If we chose this committee to Kim Housken: I would fear that if we approved them as they are written right now, that someone two years from now would come and look at this and think that someone did not know how to write verbatim minutes, and that it's very odd that certain parts of it are in bold, and certain aren't and they would not have a very accurate impression of this meeting. That would be my fear. Don Graybill: Would that be the worst repercussion, do you think? Jan Holmlund: No. No, it's not the worst repercussion. Because there were great inaudible gaps between the director of the planning department, and what she said. So, there is no real clear message that came forth from Lauri Aylaian. Is that the way you pronounce her name? There's no clear message. It was so broken up, that if you tried to make a formal presentation out of what she said, it would be virtually impossible. So, the other part, you see, this whole thing is very difficult because we weren't advised upfront, that they were going to be there and discuss this, this second, this, what they call, final document. And the document had been looked at by the sub-committee, but the committee had never even had the chance to even hear from the sub-committee. So, the whole committee wasn't prepared for this presentation. And we certainly, we knew, unlike what it says in here that we noticed that the attorney came into the room. We knew the attorney was there the minute he came into the room. We said "hello" to him. So, there's incorrect documenting in the verbatim minutes. Put in by somebody else that had nothing to say. There are places where clearly the sentence doesn't stick together, and if at some time, someone wants to go back and see how this ordinance G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 14 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 was developed and this committee agrees to this wrong thing, then you have to live with it. Don Graybill: Okay, now, what would the result be if we denied it? Jan Holmlund: Then you deny it, I guess. You know, he is probably going to give him some instructions on that. I don't know. I would say under any condition it should go back to the attorney, because he's the one that has the tapes that can verify this. We can't do it. We have no ability to verify this document. Bob Pitchford: As presented. Jan Holmlund: As presented. Russell Grance: Okay, then, deny it. And then, we always have our tapes to fall back on if there's litigation. If there's that much importance, that we need to go back for historical significance. We can do that. Kent Routh: Let's move and vote on it now and go on to elections. Russell Grance: We just need to move forward. Jan Holmlund: I'd have to remove my motion for the table if you'd rather go with a denial. If the committee would rather go with a denial, I remove my motion. Gale Broeker: I move "that we deny the minutes". Kim Housken: I second the motion. All in favor? All: Aye Kim Housken: Any opposed? No. Moving on to new business. Jan Holmlund: I would like to see a written minutes. V. NEW BUSINESS Kim Housken: I would like to thank everybody for their hard work this past year. Under my time as chair of this committee, I thought we had a great year. Certainly, I think the bus tour was the highlight of our year, and that was made possible by everybody in this room, and others. It was really great. The only thing we haven't done yet would be the showing of our movie, so perhaps that's something, only it is showing at the visitor center, perhaps something that will be done this year, or perhaps I've had inquiries as well about a second bus tour. So, maybe that would be another thing to consider. But at this time, it is time for me to pass the hat to a new chair. In the past we've moved the G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 15 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 vice-chair up into the chair position. So, if anyone would want to make a motion that Gale would become the chair? Someone make a motion Kent Routh: I move, " that Gale Broeker, become the new chairman of the Historic Preservation Committee". Kim Housken: Thank you, Kent. Vera Handley: I'll second the motion. Kim Housken: Seconded by Vera. All in favor? All: Aye. Any opposed? No. Gale Broeker: I can't speak. Kent Routh: You're speechless. Kim Housken: Congratulations! Are you going to abstain from that, Gale, I'm sorry, with Gale abstaining. Excellent! Excellent! And then, as well, we need to elect a vice-chair. Would Kent entertain the vision of being the vice-chair? Kent Routh: Sure. Kim Housken: Would someone like to move that Kent be our vice-chair? Gale Broeker: Absolutely. Kim Housken: Second? By Don. Very good. All in favor of Kent being the vice-chair for the remainder of the 2008 year. All in favor? All: Aye. Kim Housken: Any opposed? No. Excellent! No and I really don't recall and I should have gone back and looked at how we did this previously. Should Gale at this time take over, or should I? Russell Grance: She would start officially at the next meeting. Kim Housken: Officially at the next meeting. Okay, excellent! Excellent! Did we have any comments? Vera? Vera Handley: I have a comment. Kim Housken: Yes. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 16 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Vera Handley: I'll be 90 years old in June. Kim Housken: Oh, wow! (Applause) Vera Handley: And I have served on boards all of my life, because I had three husbands who never wanted me to work. So, I've been presidents of many famous organizations. And I'll tell you what, I've never worked where all of them were armatures, and so diligently put their mind and their heart to what they were doing, what they were listening to, and what they were deciding. And I commend you all, really. It's just wonderful to work with you. Kim Housken: Thank you, Vera Don Graybill: Thank you. Kim Housken: Absolutely. That definitely goes both ways. Kent Routh: While we're passing compliments around, I'd like to say that Kim Housken has been an ideal chairman, and has had the chairmanship for a half a year longer. (Applause) That's that. Kim Housken: Thank you. Thank you. Well, like I said, it's been wonderful working with you all and I'm still going to be very active, I'm sure. But now I can devote a little more time to the Arcadia book at the Historical Society, which is another plus. So, moving into old business. VI. OLD BUSINESS: Kim Housken: the revised minutes of the meeting of 1/29/08, I have my previous copy and then I have the revised copy. And you know, this is something I think we all overlooked initially, and I'll ask Russell, how to proceed. And I even went and pulled out the old agenda, and again, typically, I had looked at it previously, but this one, I was not questioned on it. So, I didn't have a, I did not catch the fact that the way this was listed on the agenda back in January, and the way it carried through to the minutes, is the review of the historic building code ordinance, which really isn't an accurate reflection of what we were looking at. It would definitely be more than. I mean, we're not. Russell Grance: Cultural resources ordinance. Kim Housken: Right, exactly, I mean and I think we all just assumed that and understood it, but it was actually when I was reviewing the minutes again, and I thought, this isn't right. And I looked back at the agenda again and I thought, oh, well that's how it was listed. I guess that I would want the records to reflect that we were referring to our cultural resources ordinance, that we had been developing. And, we are certainly not going to dabble in the historic building code, of the state. So, let's just for clarity, I wanted to have that in there. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 17 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Russell Grance: Okay. Kim Housken: One other thing, I know just reading through both versions, under old business. It was on page two, Section A, review of the historic building code ordinance, about in the middle, I think, perhaps, Russell, this is where you gave input, and I believe it's not clear. About in the middle of the first paragraph where it says, "the final ordinance document is the result of the work".. and it continues on, "the administrators, yet to be determined", I think you were the one who stated that. Do you recall? I know it was two months ago. Jan Holmlund: Well, that sentence, we discussed before this revised issue came out. And, it wasn't the final ordinance document. It was just an ordinance document, that he was talking about, because we hadn't voted on a final ordinance document. Kim Housken: Right. And the intent of this agenda, if you look at the top, was reviewed. It's even underlined. We were just reviewing it. So, we weren't voting on it. We were reviewing it and we gave our input regarding, kind of, some of the drafts and changes that were made to it. And, I believe that we wanted to send it back to staff with the recommendation that we can sit down and meet about it. Jan Holmlund: Right. Don Graybill: Uh, huh. Kim Housken: So, it wasn't so much that we rejected it; we didn't approve it. We just thought it need more review, which is how it was listed. Jan Holmlund: Right. Kim Housken: So, again, I don't know if that's something worth going back and adding in the fact that it is a little unclear. It's kind of a wordy paragraph, and perhaps if it was broken down that you were the one that brought that forward. Because I remember you saying that the city attorney has reviewed it and considers it ready to move forward. That wouldn't be something either any of us would have said. Russell Grance: Well, again, these are narrative minutes. Kim Housken: Absolutely. Russell Grance: They are not defining who said, "she said, she said". It was just a general consensus of what was discussed. Kim Housken: Right but I think that it's important that, you know, again, not that it has to be verbatim on what you said, but I think it is important to state that that was your input regarding this. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 18 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Russell Grance: That's why we get back to verbatim minutes. Kim Housken: No, no, no. Russell Grance: We're getting back to "he said, she said". When it was just a narrative of what was discussed. Gale Broeker: But it doesn't tribute the comments to both Jan and I., and that's not correct. Russell Grance: I would suggest, then, that you modify these minutes to what you want to reflect and we will look at them. Based upon her notes, again, these were taken off the notes, and they are not verbatim. Kim Housken: Right. Russell Grance: Again, I don't know what we are going to benefit by critiquing every sentence and dissecting everything. I don't see a benefit. But, if you want it done, please put it how you want it worded and we will look at it and we'll modify it one more time, and get it back so that you can approve a set of minutes. Kim Housken: I don't think it's my intent to be picky about this, or to go line by line. But, I mean, very clearly, this is something that was, I believe stated by you and I don't care if it's not verbatim. This is what was brought forward, but I think it's important to have the staff input there; that you were the one that were bringing this forward. I mean, even if it's not verbatim, typically things are broken down as to:"so and so stated such and such", without being verbatim. So, that was probably, between the issue; the fact that we are not actually dealing with the historical building code. That was my only other input on this. Russell Grance: Okay. Then I would ask that you give to me in writing how you want to paraphrase that, and we'll amend that. In fact, if that's going to make this a document that the committee would end up approving, that we will have to bring it up at the next meeting, when we have a meeting, so that you can look at the modified minutes, and then report on them at that time. Because it's apparent that in its' present state, you don't want to approve them. Kim Housken: No, that's, all I'm saying is I think, I would just amend it to read, perhaps, "Russell Grance, commented the final ordinance document is the result of the work of LSA, and so on, and so forth", all the way through "the administrator is yet to be determined". That's all I'm asking. I think it would just clean it up. Russell Grance: We'll make those modifications. G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 19 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Kim Housken: And with those modifications, I would move that the minutes be accepted with those two modifications. Kent Routh: I'll second that. Russell Grance: Okay. Jan Holmlund: May I make a comment during the discussion? Kim Housken: Certainly. Jan Holmlund: I think "final" ordinance document is not correct. It wasn't final because we never voted on it. Yes, the final ordinance document is the result of the work of LSA associate input on committee members. You're right, we have no final document. So, the ordinance document: it should be "the" ordinance document, but, yes, scratch "final". But, you know, at lot of this was avoided, I'm sure, because all of the former chairs read the minutes of this committee before it was sent out; and made comments on it. And since there has been a change in August, in November, the chair of this committee hasn't had an opportunity to read through the minutes and make certain that they're proper. So, my suggestion would be to make certain that the draft of the minutes, go to the chair of the committee, upon it, prior to finalizing the minutes, and then there wouldn't be so many corrections, perhaps. Kim Housken: It certainly worked in the past. I will say that. It worked in the past. Sharon Picciolo: Could we stop for just a minute? (End of tape # 1) Kim Housken: Everybody you know, picks up on different things. So, what Jan is saying is she would like it to eliminate the word "final" to reflect the ordinance document. Shall we amend the motion to include removal of the word, "final"? And then, including at the beginning, "Russell Grance" should come in to the comment.. Vera Handley: I'll second it. Sharon Picciolo: Did you second it, Gale? Kim Housken: It's as simple as that. "Russell Grance commented the ordinance document is the result of the work". Gale Broeker: Okay, I'll move, Vera second. Kim Housken: All in favor? AII: Aye G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 20 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMITTEE March 25, 2008 Kim Housken: Anyone opposed? Okay. So, moving on, at this point, we have nothing else on our agenda (background noise). Vera Handley: So, sub-committees..? � VII. ADJOURNMENT: Kim Housken: You guys can talk about it afterward. Oh, I think we denied them. That was the ones we denied. So, at this point, I'm hoping we'll be meeting again before Vera's ninetieth birthday, so we can all celebrate. I'll bring a cake, Vera. At this point we'll adjourn our meeting, at 11:25.a.m. ��vn�,�.e., �-� ���n,�.e,� Suzanne Cicchini, Recording Secretary (Minutes Prepared by Sharon Picciolo, Recording Secretary) G:\BldgSfty\Sharon Picciolo\Word Files\Historic Preservation Committee\Verbatim Minutes 032508.doc 21