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CITY OF PALM DESERT
CITIZENS' SUSTAINABILITY COMITTEEE
- _ �- MINUTES
�' • ' WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 8, 2012 — 10:00 A.M.
ADMININSTRATIVE CONFERENCE ROOM
73-510 FRED WARING DRIVE, PALM DESERT, CA 92260
I. CALL TO ORDER
Vice Chair Leo called the meeting to order at 10:04 a.m.
II. ROLL CALL
Present: Absent:
Member Eric Freed via Skype Member John Greenwood
Member Dean Gatons Chair Cleve Langford
Member Bruce Kassler
Member David Koller
Member David Mourhess
Member Ralph Raya
Member Susan Rosenberg
Member Luke Taylor
Vice Chair Robert Leo
Also Present:
Lauri Aylaian, Director of Community Development
Mark Greenwood, Director of Public Works
Martin Alvarez, Director of Economic Development
Ruth Ann Moore, Economic Development Manager
Missy Wightman, Assistant Planner
Monica O'Reilly, Recording Secretary
III. ORAL COMMUNICATIONS CITY COUNCILACTION
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MINUTES
CITIZENS' SUSTAINABILITY COMMITTEE AUGUST 8, 2012
IV. CONSENT CALENDAR
A. MINUTES of the Citizens' Sustainability Committee Meetings of May 9, 2012.
Rec: Approve as presented.
Upon a motion by Member Mourhess, second by Member Gatons, and 9-0 vote
with Greenwood and Langford absent, the Consent Calendar was approved as
presented.
V. CONSENT ITEMS HELD OVER
None
VI. NEW BUSINESS
None
VII. CONTINUED BUSINESS
None
VIII. OLD BUSINESS
A. UPDATE ON PLASTIC BAGS
Ms. Missy Wightman, Assistant Planner, reported that on Friday, August 3, she
met with some local retailers to discuss plastic bags. She noted that it was difficult
to get retailers to attend the meeting. There are some retailers that support a ban
of plastic bags. It was mentioned at the meeting that if the City pursues
eliminating plastic bags at restaurants, the California Grocers Association (CGA)
would likely sue the City due to a cross contamination issue. Ms. Wightman stated
that she would be doing some research on that issue. She noted that the CGA
also does not support getting rid of plastic bags for produce. CGA is strict on what
they would or would not endorse. She stated if they were to move forward to
eliminate plastic bags, there are costs involved to have an environmental study
completed. It seems that a Mitigated Negative Declaration could be done on this
issue rather than a full Environmental Impact Report (EIR), which costs more and
takes more time. Ms. Wightman mentioned it would be best if they could get all
the Coachella Valley cities involved for a full environmental document, and have
each city assist with the cost and move forward as a whole valley instead of city
by city.
Member Ralph Raya inquired if all cities get involved, would it fall under the
Coachella Valley Association of Governments (CVAG).
2
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CITIZENS' SUSTAINABILITY COMMITTEE AUGUST 8, 2012
Ms. Wightman responded that it could fall under CVAG unless there is a city that
wants to take the lead and take it on. She stated plastic bags have been
introduced to CVAG, and cities expressed that they do not have the funds for this
issue. She mentioned another concern would be that citizens might go to
neighboring cities for their groceries, if Palm Desert were to restrict plastic bags.
In addition, CGA would immediately recommend a charge for paper bags if
reusable bags are not used. Ms. Wightman said there are some cities not
charging people that are in the Women, Infants, and Children Program (WIC) and
CalFresh Program (formerly known as Food Stamps), which they must also
consider.
Member Bruce Kassler asked what is the population for the cities that have
passed ordinances in California or nationwide to ban plastic bags.
Ms. Wightman replied she did not know, but a good source for that information is
www.plasticbaqlaws.orq.
Member Kassler commented that he finds it difficult to believe that someone
would stop shopping at a store because of plastic bags. There must be some
documentation from other cities after the ordinance has passed.
Vice Chair Leo mentioned the city of Manhattan Beach won a legal ruling that
since they were below a certain population level they could pass an ordinance
without filing an EIR. The court upheld the ruling, and he is trying to find out based
on the population, if the City of Palm Desert would be allowed to do the same. He
said Palm Desert would have to take the lead or go forward alone.
Ms. Ruth Ann Moore, Economic Development Manager, asked how regular (non-
grocery) retail establishments are being addressed. Do they have to bring their
own bag into retail establishments? She stated retailers will be concerned with
theft and shoplifting.
Member Dean Gatons stated generally the ban of plastic bag pertains to grocery
stores and super centers.
Ms. Wightman said she contacted some retailers, and was unable to get
participation from them.
Ms. Moore said she could assist with retailer participation. She mentioned that
some of the higher end retailer stores already use paper bags, but she was
curious if they are going to be charged for that bag.
Member Raya interjected that grocery stores work off one percent profit so they
cannot afford to give the bags away versus a restaurant or retailer that has a
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CITIZENS' SUSTAINABILITY COMMITTEE AUGUST 8, 2012
greater profit margin. A restaurant or retailer is able to build the cost into
business.
There was brief discussion concerning leaving bags at registers or at the door
when shopping at the mall.
Member Eric Freed asked if the retailers talked about biodegradable bags.
Ms. Wightman mentioned that through some research with recycling facilities,
plastic bags and biodegradable bags get mixed and workers do not have time to
sort through to find which bags are plastic and which are biodegradable.
Therefore, biodegradable bags have not been endorsed as much.
Vice Chair Leo said once there is a ban on plastic bags, next would be to work
with the retailers to use a different type of bag. A bag that is more environmentally
friendly. He mentioned there are some retailers that use reusable bags when a
customer makes a purchase at that store.
Ms. Wightman added that reusable bags for some retailers are used for free
marketing. She also mentioned there has been an issue of cross contamination
with reusable bags. She has since put reusable bags she owns in the washer
under delicate cycle, and they all came out fine.
Vice Chair Leo asked what is the next step.
Ms. Wightman responded she is waiting to have one more meeting with retailers
to discuss charging for paper bags.
Vice Chair Leo agreed with Ms. Moore's suggestion to meet with the non-grocery
retailers to receive their input.
Ms. Moore also suggested going to the retailer meetings. Westfield and The
Gardens have merchant monthly or bi-monthly meetings.
Member Gatons inquired about the big chain stores, is staff contacting the local
stores or their corporate offices?
Ms. Wightman responded that she has been contacting the local stores, but then
she's referred to corporate offices.
Member Gatons asked if a customer is charged for a paper bag, are they taxed
for that item.
After some discussion about the taxes, Member Freed stated that there would not
be a tax for the paper bag.
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CITIZENS' SUSTAINABILITY COMMITTEE AUGUST 8, 2012
Member Susan Rosenberg inquired about the drug stores. They usually put one
small item in a plastic bag.
Member Gatons mentioned that for patient confidentiality, small paper bags are
used for medication.
Member Kassler stated that if they could get one big box store like Walmart to do
some kind of test program and be the lead, then everyone else would follow.
B. REVIEW PARKING COUNTS COMPILATION
Ms. Wightman presented information pertaining to the parking study done at
different stores and shopping center parking lots. She noted that she would email
the information to the Committee since they will not be able to go over all the
information.
Vice Chair Leo mentioned he noticed various types of storage units or trash bins
were moved into some parking lots, which reduced the number of parking
spaces.
Ms. Wightman provided the Committee with the current parking standards, and
stated that the standards could sometimes be complicated.
Vice Chair Leo asked if the parking study done at Bristol Farms included the area
down to Sherman's Deli.
Ms. Wightman replied yes, and noted that it did not include the gas station on the
corner.
Member Kassler inquired if developers know what they need for parking based
on their other stores, and do they request an exception.
Ms. Aylaian responded that some developers know what they believe they need
for their use. There are times the developer agrees with what is required and
sometimes they do not. She stated when it is less, she would generally
recommend that they go with less parking provided that they could submit
studies or substantiate where they are getting the numbers from.
Member Freed commented that Costco has ten times the amount of handicap
spaces. He asked if that comes from Costco or from the City.
Ms. Aylaian responded they did not do parking counts at Costco, but staff did
notice that Desert Gateway (Walmart, 99 Store) has a lot of handicap stalls, and
they are always occupied.
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CITIZENS' SUSTAINABILITY COMMITTEE AUGUST 8, 2012
Ms. Wightman said she would look into the handicap stalls.
Member Gatons inquired if Walmart requested more parking for motor homes.
Mr. Mark Greenwood stated that overnight parking is not allowed.
Member Freed stated the intent is not to limit parking, but to limit the amount of
asphalt.
Member Raya said it comes down to a planning issue and how the site plan is
developed. If you go to other cities such as San Diego, the Ralph's and
Albertson's have parking under the store.
Ms. Wightman mentioned that parking is not being used behind Trader Joe's,
which one wou�d assume it is intended for employees. Are they not parking there
for security reasons or are they afraid their cars will be broken into? She said
spots in the back are not needed if no one is going to use them.
Member Raya suggested as they go through the ordinance to address the
number of spaces allowed per square foot and how much parking is going to be
allowed behind or on the side of the building.
Vice Chair Leo commented they also need to follow up on making parking lots
more environmentally friendly as opposed to what they are now. He mentioned
that his wife currently has a temporary handicap permit, and he has been unable
to find a handicap parking space. He conveyed that those are two issues they
need to look at.
Member Freed noted that a handicap permit in California means more than
parking close to the front door, it also means you do not have to pay a meter
statewide. He said it is more of an issue in a big city, but worth noting. He stated
that part of the planning process is to look at what is appropriate for each site
rather than a blanket regulation.
Ms. Aylaian responded on behalf of the planners, she would advocate strongly
for an ordinance with flexibility when there are compatible uses on site. Currently
as the ordinance is written, it is cumbersome in order to approve a project, and
must go through a public hearing process.
Member Kassler mentioned that his company has a shared parking agreement
with the church across the street. After eight years, they have never had a
problem.
Member Freed asked Member Kassler if there is a liability issue if someone
parks in the company's parking lot, and the person trips and falls.
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CITIZENS' SUSTAINABILITY COMMITTEE AUGUST 8, 2012
Member Kassler responded that there is an agreement, and he believes there is
a liability staying with the company rather than the property owner.
Mr. Martin Alvarez, Director of Economic Development, noted that Ms. Moore is
working on an economic development strategy to address some additional tools
that the City might have available to bring in new developments. One item
discussed was to utilize or offer an incentive to property owners that have huge
parking lots to allow them the opportunity to develop or add leasable square
footage without increasing parking, which would reduce the amount of excess
parking and asphalt.
There was brief discussion on greening of parking lots and different materials
that could be used, such as pavers and pervious concrete.
Member Kassler mentioned they just completed a project for the Palm Springs
Unified School District. Their parking spaces were done with the pervious
concrete with crushed aggregate. They have no surface retention and with the
recent rains, the water just disappeared.
Member Luke Taylor asked Member Kassler what the maintenance for the
pervious concrete is.
Member Kassler responded that they use parking lot vacuums, and they also use
high pressure water sprayers.
Ms. Wightman continued with the presentation and reminded the Committee that
she would be emailing the study to them.
Ms. Moore inquired if the studies were done on Saturdays.
Ms. Wightman replied yes. Studies were done Sunday through Saturday at three
different times of the day.
C. PRESENTATION ON GROUP STUDIES
Ms. Wightman stated she did not have any studies forwarded to her.
Member Kassler reported he and Member John Greenwood visited about 10
parking lots after the sun went down. They found that the majority of the parking
lots were using the high pressure sodium, which are the orange tinted lights.
There were a couple of parking lots that use the metal halide. The other parking
lot they went to was at Eisenhower Medical Center (not in Palm Desert), which
was all LED. He stated the LED lights were the most pleasing. There were a
couple of parking lots that had systems to automatically turn off lights, some had
50 percent of the lots lights turned off, some lots had the back parking lights
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turned off, and Walmart had lights in the front turned off. He was surprised since
they were the only store open at 10:00 p.m., and they were busy at that time.
Member Kassler circulated pictures taken of lighting at different parking lots. He
noted LED is aesthetically better.
Member Raya added there is less glare with LED and energy consumption is
reduced.
Member Kassler asked Mr. Mark Greenwood if the City uses LED for projects or
asks their consultants to use LED.
Mr. Greenwood replied some signal lights have LED. He likes LED but they are
more expensive.
Member Raya stated as time goes on, the cost for LED will come down.
Member Rosenberg provided pictures of parking lots that had parking spaces
being used for other purposes. Some lots had garbage cans, shopping carts,
construction items, and at Home Depot they had sheds and trees in the parking
lot. She mentioned the shade trees at Lowe's are only about five feet tall after
several years and there is no shade in the whole parking lot.
Member David Koller stated that he and Member Luke Taylor looked at
landscaping and lighting interactions. He stated City codes are a little conflicting.
There is one code that requires a certain amount of shade in a parking lot, there
are lighting codes, and codes for the height of the light pole versus the height of
the landscape.
Ms. Wightman asked if it would be advantageous to have a strip of landscape
rather than adopt a parking lot with intermittent trees, and create more of a water
retention area that is fully landscaped with trees that have more area to grow.
Member Tayfor said typically the way most parking lots are situated there's the
parking lot, retail, and a retention basin. To use the retention basin in between
parking areas, he does not know if you could get the required capacity or if they
have to do something to break the retention basin up into smaller basins. He also
said there are large landscape areas where a tree has a chance to thrive, but this
does not necessarily get them close enough to the parking lot to allow for the
shade.
Member Kassler interjected that trees in parking lots do not work. Trees do not
grow well in parking lots due to the temperatures in the desert, which is the
problem at Lowe's. The smaller the island, whether it is a diamond or square or
rectangle shape, the tougher it is on trees especially during the summer months
since it restricts water from getting to the roots, which should extend as far as the
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canopy. He also said the trees also affect the lighting at night. He suggested
putting trees on the outside of the project or right up against the building, which
will create shade and would reduce the temperature to the building. He also
suggested installing carports with solar panels, but indicated that this might be
costly. Member Kassler stated whatever money is available should not be wasted
on putting in a tree that's going to be stressed out for the rest of its existence. He
said install something that is going to be of value even if you can only do ten
carports. It is better for the shopper, and certainly for the developer/property
owner.
Member Taylor added that another advantage is if you have a shade structure,
you no longer have a lighting issue.
Member Raya commented if you take the process of design, you first choose
sites to install the lights to evenly illuminate the project. Then go back and look
between the poles and take two parking spots off of each side (20 x 40 foot zone)
that can hold two trees. He thinks two parking stalls are big enough to plant trees
and it would also reduce the parking counts.
Ms. Wightman asked Member Taylor if he recommends modifying the ordinance
that requires parking stalls for trees.
Member Taylor responded in his opinion instead of trying to make something
work with trees spread throughout the lot, make everything hardscape then put
trees and landscape elsewhere.
Ms. Wightman stated it would also give designers an opportunity to be creative.
So if they come up with a percentage of shade for designers to work with,
whether it is carports or trees, maybe they could require a percentage of trees on
site but not require it in certain plots like they are now. If carports are installed,
they should count towards the percentage of shaded areas.
IX. REPORTS AND REMARKS
A. ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR
1. ENERGY INDEPENDENCE PROGRAM UPDATE
Mr. Alvarez reported that through the Energy Independence Program (EIP) for
2012 (first seven months), the City financed 19 loans that consisted of air
conditioning systems, window replacements, and pool pumps. There are 435
projects that were not funded through the EIP program, and have gone through
their own financing or other opportunities. Of the 435 projects, 336 of the projects
have been air conditioning change outs. He reported that to date, the City has
only financed three solar projects, and there have been 66 non-EIP solar projects.
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He stated the market is still moving forward, and the City is happy with the
progress they have made in the last five years. Mr. Alvarez updated the
Committee on the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) legal issue, and
provided a fact sheet on the Property Assessed Clean Energy (PACE) Program
explaining the program and the alternatives that the FHFA has proposed. He
briefly went over the alternatives that were listed in the fact sheet.
Ms. Wightman asked Mr. Alvarez to explain FHFA's Notice of Proposed
Rulemaking.
Mr. Alvarez responded that there is a lawsuit that is being heard in the Federal
District Court and that lawsuit is pending. The Federal Court is holding back
issuing a ruling until the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking process is handled,
which gives the public an opportunity to comment.
B. COMMITTEE MEMBERS
Member Taylor commented there are handicap parking spaces, and there are
other spaces such as carpool spaces. His thought is to possibly have other
spaces be used for handicap if the handicap spaces are full.
Member Raya mentioned he would send an email out to organize a meeting to
discuss lighting.
Member Kassler commented it is hard for him to imagine that people are having a
difficult time with the ban of plastic bags. He stated plastic is a bad thing, and all
one has to do is the research. He wished that the City Council would be more
concerned, since in his opinion it is easy to do. He suggested that before the next
meeting staff find out about the CEQA requirement or lack thereof.
Ms. Wightman stated that a Mitigated Negative Declaration is less expensive than
a full EIR and takes less time, although Member Kassler pointed out that an EIR
could rule out possible lawsuits.
Ms. Wightman responded there are still going to be lawsuits. She mentioned
when plastic bags were on the City Council agenda and staff was asked to
research the matter, she received a number of calls, emails, and letters.
Member Gatons said the media also made it sound like the City Council was
going to vote for the ban of plastic bags.
Ms. Wightman stated it is a tough issue. She would like to research as many
bases as possible, and continue to inform the public. She mentioned the younger
generation have a better understanding, but she intends to show Bag lt at the
Joslyn Senior Center to get feedback from them.
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Member Gatons mentioned the solar panels at the Berger Foundation building
were removed, and asked when they were taken down.
Ms. Aylaian responded they voluntarily removed the panels. She commented they
were having trouble with the control system, and it did not work properly.
Member Freed said he's been doing some research on de-asphaltification, and
stated he would be meeting with his group to share what he's been doing. He
mentioned he's been through a plastic bag ordinance in San Francisco; once it is
done, it's done and not a big deal. The retailers don't complain anymore, but
there's always drama leading up to it.
Ms. Aylaian stated that she likes the suggestion of finding a model for the ban of
plastic bags. She is thinking maybe the City can find and identify an existing
grocery center to team with to test a ban on plastic bags and a nominal charge for
paper bags. She volunteered to look into that concept before the next meeting.
Ms. Moore noted that she started to use reusable bags, and people could learn to
do it.
X. ADJOURNMENT
Upon a motion by Mourhess, second by Gatons, and a 9-0 vote of the Citizens'
Sustainability Committee, Vice Chair Leo adjourned the meeting at 11:55 a.m.
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